Compassion, Healing or Love for the Broken Dark Princess: Vaylin Appreciation <3

[DuskIsNotAmused]

Lol I'm not offended.

 

I'm pretty good, yourself?

 

Pretty good considering Resident Evil has been eating my time, figuratively and literally

Plus DMC 5 soooooo, I've been neglecting Swtor...Trying to catch up. Curious to see the info dump at the cantina in April.

[Paulsutherland]

Pretty good considering Resident Evil has been eating my time, figuratively and literally

Plus DMC 5 soooooo, I've been neglecting Swtor...Trying to catch up. Curious to see the info dump at the cantina in April.

 

The new Resident Evil is awesome! I've also been going back and forth between Star Trek Online, War Thunder, Subnautica and Kotor II.

 

I'm optimistic but whatever is revealed is bound to be awhile away. I might take another break between then and whenever it comes out.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

The new Resident Evil is awesome! I've also been going back and forth between Star Trek Online, War Thunder, Subnautica and Kotor II.

 

I'm optimistic but whatever is revealed is bound to be awhile away. I might take another break between then and whenever it comes out.

 

Yeah probably best not to hype it to much, I'm pretty sure I've thought `after this I'll know where things are heading` before all updates since `the Nathema conspiracy` Which as it turned out, was optimistic XD Still no real idea where they're taking it, except the obvious of course (Rep Vs Imp).

[gamephil]

Hi Paul, Phil How are you both? (srry if you don't like folks shortening your names I'll stop )

 

I don't mind, though unlike Paul my name isn't actually Phil. Glad gaming is treating you well.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

I don't mind, though unlike Paul my name isn't actually Phil. Glad gaming is treating you well.

'M not sure Paul is their's either Basically just spelled out the bits I was confident I could spell right from memory

Thanks It's always nice to come back and see familiar faces. Been playing anything fun yourself lately? ^^

[Paulsutherland]

'M not sure Paul is their's either Basically just spelled out the bits I was confident I could spell right from memory

Thanks It's always nice to come back and see familiar faces. Been playing anything fun yourself lately? ^^

 

Actually it is. I don't remember why I did it ... though I suspect I got fed up of putting in endless names that were already taken.

 

I don't mind, though unlike Paul my name isn't actually Phil. Glad gaming is treating you well.

 

But you are forever known as 'Brother Phil' in the 'Vaylin Resurrection Department' of the Order of Zildrog

Edited March 21, 2019 by Paulsutherland

[gamephil]

'M not sure Paul is their's either Basically just spelled out the bits I was confident I could spell right from memory

Thanks It's always nice to come back and see familiar faces. Been playing anything fun yourself lately? ^^

 

Mainly WoW. Never thought I'd go back there, honestly, but here we are.

[thejediscavenger]

I love Vaylin! I felt compassion for her before I learned of her dark past, same as Arcann. I wanted both to be redeemed. I knew Arcann was possible since Fallen Empire, and Vaylin gave me hope in Eternal Throne, but her joining me only came after her death and I knew it was all I was going to get, but it still left me feeling bittersweet. It was like ME2 where I saved everyone in the final mission only to watch some die without being able to stop it in ME3.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

I love Vaylin! I felt compassion for her before I learned of her dark past, same as Arcann. I wanted both to be redeemed. I knew Arcann was possible since Fallen Empire, and Vaylin gave me hope in Eternal Throne, but her joining me only came after her death and I knew it was all I was going to get, but it still left me feeling bittersweet. It was like ME2 where I saved everyone in the final mission only to watch some die without being able to stop it in ME3.

 

I hoped since fallen empire (or since I saw the brothers trailer really) but I wasn't sure, my faves have a habit of `redeeming themselves posthumously` or `To damaged/far gone/other priorities`. Although I've been having a bit more luck lately....Maybe those storylines are taking a hike/I mean break -innocent- in that case -Yay!-

 

Vaylin didn't benefit though I'm sad you can only really `join forces` after her death too. Though I am grateful you could make it partially about freeing her in the mind-scape. Just feels weird how none of it is ever mentioned again though, just moves right on to Iokath and `the traitor` storyline. It's not like the fallen empire additions that had forged alliances, Ziost and shadow of Revan to feed into it/bridge the gap. But I guess maybe Fractured alliances, Ossus and anything else to be released might be taking that roll to 6.0?

[DuskIsNotAmused]

Mainly WoW. Never thought I'd go back there, honestly, but here we are.

 

Are you Specifically RPG? Online/Offline both? I'm guessing you like a developed storyline, with interesting charas to interact with (Purely from previous discussions). If you got fed up with WOW I'm guessing you prefer storylines with content (cutscenes, dialogue etc) rather than all story content you have to read, or maybe you just didn't like where the game was going or the vibe? Srry just wondering If we (the thread) could suggest some games you might enjoy. Is the social element important for you?

 

I'm very particular about which games I like/play as well, I've been spoilt recently ^^ Never had so many turn up at once.

[thejediscavenger]

I hoped since fallen empire (or since I saw the brothers trailer really) but I wasn't sure, my faves have a habit of `redeeming themselves posthumously` or `To damaged/far gone/other priorities`. Although I've been having a bit more luck lately....Maybe those storylines are taking a hike/I mean break -innocent- in that case -Yay!-

 

Vaylin didn't benefit though I'm sad you can only really `join forces` after her death too. Though I am grateful you could make it partially about freeing her in the mind-scape. Just feels weird how none of it is ever mentioned again though, just moves right on to Iokath and `the traitor` storyline. It's not like the fallen empire additions that had forged alliances, Ziost and shadow of Revan to feed into it/bridge the gap. But I guess maybe Fractured alliances, Ossus and anything else to be released might be taking that roll to 6.0?

 

That moment when my gentle JC said "Vaylin, you're free" I got really emotional, then we joined with Arcann to defeat Valkorion for good. It felt so right and so good during those moments. At least I was able to give her peace finally, when no one else could, and save her brother and mother from the fate Valkorion wanted for them.

Edited March 24, 2019 by thejediscavenger

[Paulsutherland]

Vaylin didn't benefit though I'm sad you can only really `join forces` after her death too.

 

Maybe she 'fed' of the death of Valkorion to 'save' herself?

 

Mainly WoW. Never thought I'd go back there, honestly, but here we are.

 

I never got into WOW, is it any good?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Paulsutherland

[gamephil]

Are you Specifically RPG? Online/Offline both? I'm guessing you like a developed storyline, with interesting charas to interact with (Purely from previous discussions). If you got fed up with WOW I'm guessing you prefer storylines with content (cutscenes, dialogue etc) rather than all story content you have to read, or maybe you just didn't like where the game was going or the vibe? Srry just wondering If we (the thread) could suggest some games you might enjoy. Is the social element important for you?

 

I'm very particular about which games I like/play as well, I've been spoilt recently ^^ Never had so many turn up at once.

 

TL'DR: These days, I'm pretty sure I just need a single player or single-player-friendly game with lots of happy endings and a great deal more control over my own characters' personalities and decisions.

 

This... is a pretty appropriate place for that conversation, actually, at least for why I left and ultimately returned to WoW.

 

I'll start with the simple things: I'm not a very social gamer. MMO's are good for me because they tend to last a long time and get updates, if single player had the longevity I'd probably play them more often. RPG's are my favored form of computer gaming, and I try to get some tabletop games done as well.

 

I ultimately left WoW the last time not just because it didn't have the level of storytelling that I'd prefer, but because I just got fed up with a few of the tropes they love to use. Too many times where the story revolved around a character, once corrupted, just having no way back. The number of times my character fell for the "bad guy pretends to be helping you but SURPRISE!" was too many, though at least we were not meant to actually know this was a bad guy before the reveal. Couldn't take it any longer after the Dream Dragon incident, it was one time too many.

 

You probably see where this is going.

 

Yes, one of the things that originally attracted me to SWTOR, aside from being Star Wars, was the generally well-voiced characters (there are certainly exceptions) and the stronger story that I could get immersed in more. My first character was a Consular, and whatever its flaws, that story appealed to me because we were able to save them rather than having to kill them, however hamfisted the story might be. I'd just had enough of the opposite happening so regularly, even years before it got me fed up with WoW. The JK intro with the broken man that deserved another chance. Even being able to take a hand rather than a life. And so on. All of that was right up my alley.

 

Now I feel that the story decisions have radically changed, and that those details and the amount of effort put into them make it worse, not better. Mostly with the title character of this thread, whose story was just consistently not only "can't be saved" but also "let's hurt her some more", but there have been some other things as well that just set my teeth on edge. So it goes.

 

I returned to WoW in large part because it's kind of pretty, pretty mindless*, and those elements of its story that I came to detest I was finding everywhere, including here, so may as well enjoy it for the parts I like and ignore the parts I don't. I haven't gotten to that point with SWTOR, yet, sadly. There's just this big two year plus story right in the middle that is just hard to ignore, all the more so because of how many elements and characters I like. If only they'd been handled better.

 

*I just did the "pretty mindless" thing because I liked the turn of phrase, and because that's how I play it. Plenty of people love the level of detail and lore, even if I find it inconsistent, and make more of the game than I do, and this is no reflection on them.

 

Edit: I'm not saying that those stories can't exist, only that personally I'm very tired of them. I also feel this one was especially toxic, with its "let's kill the abuse survivor multiple times, because it's fun, and torture her a bit for good measure in between."

 

I never got into WOW, is it any good?

 

It can be fun. There are lots of details but a somewhat cartoonish look, which I don't know if you'd like considering the types of games I know you play. It has a lot of minigames in it that can be diverting. It's also fantasy-with-flintlocks, which is not for everyone. There are ways to get in for free for a bit, if you ever wanted to try it out.

Edited March 24, 2019 by gamephil

[gamephil]

I will have to look into that game. I'm also fond of Jack from Mass Effect, in theory, but I've never quite seen her entire story.

 

And, yeah, it is a negative trigger in general. They just dialed it up to 11 with this one, and I can't help but feel made our characters culpable in it. My reaction is usually to roll my eyes, complain a bit, and move on to better things.

Edited March 24, 2019 by gamephil

[BelorfinSiana]

I wanted a flirt option for Vaylin, just once. My jugg was unattached.

 

Redemption would've been nice too.

Edited March 24, 2019 by BelorfinSiana

[DuskIsNotAmused]

I will have to look into that game. I'm also fond of Jack from Mass Effect, in theory, but I've never quite seen her entire story.

 

And, yeah, it is a negative trigger in general. They just dialed it up to 11 with this one, and I can't help but feel made our characters culpable in it. My reaction is usually to roll my eyes, complain a bit, and move on to better things.

 

I would definitely recommend ^^ Jack was my fave in Mass Effect 2 They did take it to a nice place in Mass Effect 3 but it just didn't quite feel like my Jack (from ME2). I was happy just taking the ME2 situation and making my own cannon from there >:] wasn't that bothered about ME (1) either so, I just really focused on ME2 as my charas story, or ME2 + ME3 for my Shep with Kaidan (ME3 Kaidan storyline I liked). I'm really more of a Dragon Age fan than a Mass Effect fan but I have a soft spot for ME2.

 

Thats the thing about triggers - their effects/consequences always overstay their welcome

Don't worry about talking it out, never feel bad about what you need to do to feel better Plus pretty sure anyone here is up for that discussion anyway, it is the Dark Princess's thread after all - at worst your on topic

 

I think Valky in our pc's head and his not so subtle steering made them complicit. As most people he had power over were at one point or another But it is worth highlighting that our charas were victims of his as well. No one was making good decisions. People (our pc, Vaylin, Arcann etc) did the best they could, thats important. They also hung in there despite facing off against a 1000 year old opponent with a history of weaponizing people against themselves. One way or another they also managed to take down the b*****d thats an achievement and true of all playthroughs.

 

It sucks that we had to use the conditioning (especially as a tool to humiliate), That we couldn't make that last ditch effort - even if Valky's manipulating had made that a none option (If she would refuse), That her family weren't allowed to make a final bid.

 

Many are complicit, but I would argue Valky is the one who's culpable. It is a small, but important distinction.

Edited March 25, 2019 by DuskIsNotAmused

[Paulsutherland]

Head cannon excepted So where is she now in this route? What is she getting up to? >:]

 

In the Odessen Wilds? Travelling across Odessen while battling her 'inner demons' ?

 

I will have to look into that game. I'm also fond of Jack from Mass Effect, in theory, but I've never quite seen her entire story.

 

You've never played ME2?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Paulsutherland

[DuskIsNotAmused]

In the Odessen Wilds? Travelling across Odessen while battling her 'inner demons' ?

 

Oh, Thats lovely -Hearts-

[gamephil]

In the Odessen Wilds? Travelling across Odessen while battling her 'inner demons' ?

 

 

 

You've never played ME2?

 

I've played ME2, I've never finished ME2. I do that with a lot of games.

[gamephil]

Many are complicit, but I would argue Valky is the one who's culpable. It is a small, but important distinction.

 

Valky's definitely the primary culprit, here. I would appreciate it, though, if they're not ever going to just let her live, that they reveal that scene in Chapter 6* to be outright him in control, along with some of the lines in Chapter 8. That would take out some of the sting, though I'm aware that there are people that would not like that loss of agency. Normally, I would not be thrilled, but I do think in this case it makes this particular story better. If that were canon, I could probably blow it off as just another of those stories I don't care for.

 

Prefer them to just bring her back, and I think it could be done more simply in several ways, though. Like Paul's. I still like the idea of her hanging out in the holocron, as long as she's not stuck there for thousands of years or something like granddad.

 

*Or let us choose for that to be what happened. Some people liked the whole thing just fine. I'll never understand it, but I don't want to take their story away, either.

Edited March 25, 2019 by gamephil

[Paulsutherland]

Oh, Thats lovely -Hearts-

 

That was commissioned by Brother Phil and drawn by Via.

 

Prefer them to just bring her back, and I think it could be done more simply in several ways, though. Like Paul's. I still like the idea of her hanging out in the holocron, as long as she's not stuck there for thousands of years or something like granddad.

 

There was a thread awhile ago on Reddit with a lot of cool ideas. I think my favourite was the one idea that suggested Vaylin fed of the death of Valkorion to heal herself or the one from John's page about the Sith fanatic healing Vaylin.

[gamephil]

That was commissioned by Brother Phil and drawn by Via.

 

 

 

There was a thread awhile ago on Reddit with a lot of cool ideas. I think my favourite was the one idea that suggested Vaylin fed of the death of Valkorion to heal herself or the one from John's page about the Sith fanatic healing Vaylin.

 

I had a bit like that somewhere, too, where she's lurking about and basically eats him. My wish for this story is not that she becomes her dad, but after everything, her devouring him and taking his role would be poetic.

[Paulsutherland]

I had a bit like that somewhere, too, where she's lurking about and basically eats him. My wish for this story is not that she becomes her dad, but after everything, her devouring him and taking his role would be poetic.

 

I don't remember how it was worded but it was something along the lines of her absorbing the energy from his death.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

Valky's definitely the primary culprit, here. I would appreciate it, though, if they're not ever going to just let her live, that they reveal that scene in Chapter 6* to be outright him in control, along with some of the lines in Chapter 8. That would take out some of the sting, though I'm aware that there are people that would not like that loss of agency. Normally, I would not be thrilled, but I do think in this case it makes this particular story better. If that were canon, I could probably blow it off as just another of those stories I don't care for.

 

Prefer them to just bring her back, and I think it could be done more simply in several ways, though. Like Paul's. I still like the idea of her hanging out in the holocron, as long as she's not stuck there for thousands of years or something like granddad.

 

*Or let us choose for that to be what happened. Some people liked the whole thing just fine. I'll never understand it, but I don't want to take their story away, either.

 

I know which part your talking about in chap 6, which lines in particular in 8?

I don't think it's a stretch to say your pc is out of control, there isn't anything in the scene that refutes that and plenty of historic evidence to support the scenario's plausibility. Most importantly you know your character, would they have acted that way? if not then there's your answer.

 

I was thinking when I get to that point again and record the scenes, I might write accompanying scenes with the actions/dialogue mirrored, but giving a window into whats happening in my charas head....hmmmmm

-------------

I know it's not the `canon` acceptance you want, and I understand the need; I struggle to stray from canon in storylines others have written - feels wrong/incorrect? like the charas/world aren't themselves anymore.

 

Our PC'S are a shared creation; between us and all the people who worked on bringing them/the possibility of them to life. But I don't think they would have a problem with your interpretation, everything I've seen leads me to believe that they enjoy the collaboration with fans. I won't dispute your interpretation of events in KotET - They are as valid as my own. But I don't think that interpretation of the stroyline (Pc being forced to be abusive) was intended, I think realizing that it had that feel/effect on some players would upset them.

 

They may not be/feel able to change it, the problem with creative(/other) projects is once you release them you are somewhat held to the decisions you made with them. Constantly retaking them and altering pieces is rarely received well by fans (in my experience). But if they've heard you, they will be more aware of those potential dangers in future.

[gamephil]

I know which part your talking about in chap 6, which lines in particular in 8?

I don't think it's a stretch to say your pc is out of control, there isn't anything in the scene that refutes that and plenty of historic evidence to support the scenario's plausibility. Most importantly you know your character, would they have acted that way? if not then there's your answer.

 

That doesn't actually help with the core issue, though I do thank you for your concern and the attempt. There was certainly a time when I would have done that, it's just long past. I'm happy that you can do it, but they gave me nothing to base it on. They described the torture and brainwashing of a child in excruciating detail, and then gave no opportunity to try to do anything about it. They had us outright say that Valkorion was not in charge. They presented our actions against Vaylin as heroic, even inspiring, when using her torture got the civilians fighting back. They referred to her as "depraved", said she was "more brutal" than her brother for killing a dozen Knights when he killed half of them. The very fact that her weakness was having to kneel to her abuser was a decision that they should have thought through better, and then we couldn't even be allowed an "I'm sorry". It felt to me as though hurting her more was supposed to be just and fair.

 

That's the issue. I can always come up with a better story than this, but it's not just the story, which is bad enough. I just no longer have any faith that they didn't think it would be fun to humiliate, torture, and kill (multiple times) this woman, this victim of depravity. What's worse, for a lot of the fans, they seem to be right. I've just seen it too many times, I know such people exist, but had hoped that, for all their flaws, BWA was better. No longer. They just failed to present something better too many times, and that flushed years of good will in one shot. That's my central issue. And no headcanon can fix that, because it's not about the story, it's about how the story changed my perception of the writers. It's actually colored my perception of a lot of events in the game, because I used to make excuses for them, but couldn't this time. Them making some concession in canon would go a ways to improving that perception.

 

Preferably, just allowing her to somehow be alive and allow us to treat her better, if that's what we choose.

 

Now, to be fair, they did say this was a mistake, which does help. But I don't know if they know what the worst mistake really was, and so far they are resistant to do anything about it. Yes, I get that they can't always go back on their story, but this is one of those times I feel they should make an exception. It was just that bad.

 

Edit: For Chapter 8, the wheel with, "You sick, twisted...", "Now you'll suffer before you die", "I don't care". Where's my, "I know what you've been through, but he/she was the last"?

 

Arcann, if he's alive, hoping that her spirit has been obliterated. I know what they were going for, the VA even almost saves it, but as I've said, at a certain point I gave up trying to make excuses for them.

 

"We've won". No, Commander, we really haven't, we just played into the hands of the real threat by finally killing his greatest victim so he could steal her power. Not to mention the whole "fleet will now kill millions" thing.

Edited March 25, 2019 by gamephil