People already asking for Mara Nerfs

[supertimtaf]

Quick answer to some here :

Trixxie, Ruthless Aggressor does give 75% of Force/Tech resist chance when using obfuscate, who already lowers melee and ranged accuracy by 90%

Grim, the force/tech resist chance does affect cc too. However, if your opponent manage to cc you (one chance out of four if it's a F/T cc, 5% chances if it's a melee ranged cc) then you'll take the melee and ranged attack even under obfuscate.

So basically you have one chance out of four to survive an obfuscate, if you're not a sniper who has only 5% chance

[Tahana]

Stop screwing with my PVE

[Andryah]

To be fair people are always asking for nerfs to classes that aren't their mains.

 

Yeah...... pretty much true in every MMO I have ever played.

 

Other players demanding nerfs on classes in an MMO over PvP is really not worth the space taken by a thread in the forum. All it is going to do is create a whirlpool of differing opinions as the thread slowly circles inside the metaphor of a round white bowl shaped device that keeps modern society reasonably sanitary.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Andryah

[AlrikFassbauer]

To be fair people are always asking for nerfs to classes that aren't their mains.

 

My main is a Gunslinger. I stopped talking about that class ages ago. Nobody would believe me anyway.

[RagnarAugustus]

ruthless aggressor needs a nerf for pvp clearly.

 

The issue is any nerf would adversely affect the classes' viability in HM\NiM Ops. PVP is not the only part of the game and until BW comes up with a way to balance PVP and PVE completely separately there are going to have to be compromises made or nerf requests ignored.

[shyroman]

The issue is any nerf would adversely affect the classes' viability in HM\NiM Ops. PVP is not the only part of the game and until BW comes up with a way to balance PVP and PVE completely separately there are going to have to be compromises made or nerf requests ignored.

 

Not only is marauder already one of the best classes for pve, but a nerf to ruthless aggressor would have zero impact in hm/nim ops because obfuscate can't be used on ops bosses, unless you want to argue that trash/adds should be balanced around.

[RACATW]

What in the world are you smoking?! lol

Snipers are one of the squishiest in game in PvP setting. (Which is what is being discussed here.)

They do NOT have some of the best defensives in game, nor are their "self heals" any good at really healing themselves when being attacked aside from a slight percentage. *SMH*

 

And to claim "tanks take more damage than Snipers do." dude I don't know who or what you've been facing but in PvP, especially ranked, Snipers can easily be taken down.

Tanks, they take & absorb tons of damage, which is their JOB, but they still stand. Half that damage they hold, a sniper crumbles shortly under it. So no that's a bunk of bull.

 

Snipers are ranged skank tanks.

Mercs are also ranged skank tanks.

 

 

Snipers and mercs have tank tier defensives, that hasn't changed. They definitely are NOT squishy lol and their kiting ability is only slightly worse than sorcs.

 

In fact I'm surprised more people don't complain about them still. Diversion affects multiple peoples yellow and white damage (melee) and evasion provides white damage immunity and yellow.

 

You should note that in both these cases the white damsge immunity is versus all attacking players whereas obfuscate is only vs one. What obfuscate shares in common with sniper evasion is the 75% part.

The in thing to do used to be complaining about shroud (200% mitigation and cleanse to yellow damage).

 

All these abilities last 4-6 seconds with cds 45-1 minute. There are other abilities that are worse and mitigate more damage in my opinion like the knockback roots and immunity to stun.

Edited January 5, 2018 by RACATW

[JasonThDi]

The Marauders already received a nerf, especially with Ravage. Do we really need another nerf? Coming from someone who's been playing a Marauder for years.

[KendraP]

I'm on my phone so don't want to go through quoting all the people I'd like, but I do have a few points.

 

The tanks they are facing are probably ones like me. I rarely die more than 1-2 times per wz even with 4 or more players focusing me and my healer buddy, who I refuse to run without. Call it arrogance or advantage stacking but I get focused a lot. I'm going to stack my advantage because I know I'm going to get focused. In the new meta of fury maras being more popular in particular, I'm getting to cleave and aoe a lot of them. This, combined with the survivability, adds up a lot over a match.

 

The fix to this would be to make tank stats usable. But I believe that's probably beyond anyone's ability at this point.

 

On the sniper front, I feel they are tanky because of their ability to keep away from others. They are definately more tanky than say a sorc, but less face tanky than say a merc, when compared to their rDPS brethren. The cover mechanic is supposed to limit their mobility (in return for gap closers not working while they're in cover) but crap, I hate trying to kill a sniper.

 

On the mara front, fury appears to be in a good place right now. Damage wise there is no way I'd call it op. And watchman and combat sents certainly don't seem to be op in terms of damage or survivability. In general, maras have been amongst the most balanced classes in the game as dps specs go.

 

Beyond that I leave anything mara to someone who knows more

[cagthehack]

Mara's don't need a nerf. And I play an (concealment) operative and jugg. And I have no issues with mara's. Sure, some kick my *** but most don't know how to play and I kill easy. Especially on my jugg. Most good maras I see in WZ are going for the sorcs/sages, snipers and me (when I play an op) - which they are suppose to be doing IMHO.

 

As an op I know how to evade and run from mara's - so let them chase me. My jugg, I stand there and duke it out.

 

I do think mercs and snipers need a slight adjustment. But not to dps but to their defense abilities.

 

My point is that some classes are meant to kill other classes. It's very hard for a jugg to kill a healing speced sorc/sage. That's why we have mara's/sents.

[Tsillah]

I'm on my phone so don't want to go through quoting all the people I'd like, but I do have a few points.

 

The tanks they are facing are probably ones like me. I rarely die more than 1-2 times per wz even with 4 or more players focusing me and my healer buddy, who I refuse to run without. Call it arrogance or advantage stacking but I get focused a lot. I'm going to stack my advantage because I know I'm going to get focused. In the new meta of fury maras being more popular in particular, I'm getting to cleave and aoe a lot of them. This, combined with the survivability, adds up a lot over a match.

 

The fix to this would be to make tank stats usable. But I believe that's probably beyond anyone's ability at this point.

 

On the sniper front, I feel they are tanky because of their ability to keep away from others. They are definately more tanky than say a sorc, but less face tanky than say a merc, when compared to their rDPS brethren. The cover mechanic is supposed to limit their mobility (in return for gap closers not working while they're in cover) but crap, I hate trying to kill a sniper.

 

On the mara front, fury appears to be in a good place right now. Damage wise there is no way I'd call it op. And watchman and combat sents certainly don't seem to be op in terms of damage or survivability. In general, maras have been amongst the most balanced classes in the game as dps specs go.

 

Beyond that I leave anything mara to someone who knows more

 

The real question is: Are you a tank or a skank?

 

Cause in my view if there is something that BW needs to do something about it's the skank tanking that's taken over.

[PlagaNerezza]

I'm on my phone so don't want to go through quoting all the people I'd like, but I do have a few points.

 

The tanks they are facing are probably ones like me. I rarely die more than 1-2 times per wz even with 4 or more players focusing me and my healer buddy, who I refuse to run without. Call it arrogance or advantage stacking but I get focused a lot. I'm going to stack my advantage because I know I'm going to get focused. In the new meta of fury maras being more popular in particular, I'm getting to cleave and aoe a lot of them. This, combined with the survivability, adds up a lot over a match.

 

The fix to this would be to make tank stats usable. But I believe that's probably beyond anyone's ability at this point.

 

On the sniper front, I feel they are tanky because of their ability to keep away from others. They are definately more tanky than say a sorc, but less face tanky than say a merc, when compared to their rDPS brethren. The cover mechanic is supposed to limit their mobility (in return for gap closers not working while they're in cover) but crap, I hate trying to kill a sniper.

 

On the mara front, fury appears to be in a good place right now. Damage wise there is no way I'd call it op. And watchman and combat sents certainly don't seem to be op in terms of damage or survivability. In general, maras have been amongst the most balanced classes in the game as dps specs go.

 

Beyond that I leave anything mara to someone who knows more

 

I'm not going to propose tweaks. Just observations from playing.

 

8v8, 4v4, PVE requires a balance for all end game activities. The DCD's are a problem in ranked. They are not massive but they are still existent and could use some review with that in mind. I tend to agree that 8v8 they are fine. I don't see a problem in those situations and agree the cooldowns make it different in those longer fights any adjustment shouldn't be to severe and should be aware the cooldowns impact in other maps that are not 4v4.

 

I've got more of a problem with snipers/gs right now though. That class feels broken when you play against it as a melee. A ranged against them isn't as bad, but a melee with them doesn't feel right.

 

My Merc isn't right either. They are both way to tanky at times.

[CaptRogue]

The real question is: Are you a tank or a skank?

 

Cause in my view if there is something that BW needs to do something about it's the skank tanking that's taken over.

 

Skank tanking isn't taking over. lol It used to be a huge thing back when we had expertise gear. It's nothing they will be able to get rid of unless the just revamp the game. Major mistake on their part when they do it.

I do not skank tank, and do quite well in ranked full tank gear. (No bolster relic stuff either.)

[TrixxieTriss]

you forgot about the ruthless aggressor utility which is what gives 75% force/tech resist on obfuscate for 6 seconds which is what supertimtaf was referring to.

 

I didn’t add anything but abilities. So I’m not wrong because it’s a utility. Not everyone chooses it, so it’s not a DCD ability.

Learn the difference.

[TrixxieTriss]

Well said Grim. Thank you for explaining it in such a logical and informative manner. Maybe now some of these people who don’t understand the class will pay attention for once.

You should probably copy and past this into the nerf Mara thread that’s in the pvp section because there seems to be plenty of “good players” who don’t understand this.

 

Problem with Ruthless Agressor is that there is a big misconception about how it actually works. The only damage that is mitigates [resists] is Force Damage and Tech damage. It does absolutely nothing vs white damage [weapon] damage. In essence it only effects "the bonus damage" for force or tech damage. If you look on your character sheet and look at where the bonus damage is listed which will be under the Force or Tech drop down menu you will see "bonus damage" listed, hover over that and you will see all the things that apply to your bonus damage, there will be 4 different contributers to the bonus damage. They are - Power, Force [Or tech depending on your class], Mastery, Skills/Buffs. You can't use the "bonus damage" on the main character sheet as it does not include the force or tech bonus damage there.

 

I'll use my character sheet values for demonstraitive purposes. Here is a screen shot of it. - https://ibb.co/fLZi7G

 

You'll note that of the four different contributers of bonus damage which total damage bonus comes to 3864, the Force Damage bonus is +1106, So in effect, Ruthless Aggressor would only mitigate[resist] the +1106 and do nothing to the other bonus damage contributers and the white damage [Weapon damage] which varies of course depending on class and weapon.

 

If you add all these damage bonus types with the weapon damage, people get as high 4800 to mainhand damage. So Ruthless Aggressor would still leave about 4100 of that damage unaffected. It does not resist against the total damage, only the bonus Force or Tech damage. Furthermore it does not prevent CCs, it does not effect AOE damage and it further is limited to an enemy who is within 10m of you. So you can't even use it on Ranged in most instances because most ranged [if they know what they are doing] are going to be a lot further away from you than 10m because they're wussies and it's a lot safer to attack people with an attack range of 4' from 5 blocks away [30/35']. Additionally, it shares the same CD as Obfuscate as you need to use obfuscate in order to use Ruthless Aggressor. So what people are confusing here is the misses that Obfuscate is causing. If you take Ruthless Agressor away, obfuscate is still going to cause misses due to decreased accuracy.

 

Most people think it applies to all the damage and that's why they think it's so over the top, which if it effected all the damage, it would be.

 

Now, I'm not gonna try and convince people that Ruthless Aggressor should be left alone, quite honestly, given that I do know how it works and what it's actually doing for me, even if they nerf it some, it's not gonna have as big of an effect as people think it would.

 

That said, I would love to hear the justifications people have why Marauder is the only class in the game without any self heals. No one thinks that it's a little odd they are the only one? You can't say it's because it's a pure DPS class because so is Sniper, and and they have some of the best defensives in the game in addition to self heals. Tanks take more damage than Snipers do.

 

IMO, Marauders shouldn't have any self heals, as they are, as far as I am concerned a pure DPS class and pure DPS classes shouldn't have any self heals. They should, however, have the best DPS in the game period [but they don't].

 

I cannot take anyone seriously who says Marauders have great surivability if there is no healer on their team to heal them. That's a crock of shyt. I personally would much rather see them as they are, now, Mitigation DCDs only, and no heals, but, if they are going to start getting their DCDs chipped away, than they should have some self heals like every single other class and spec in the game has.

 

No one needs Marauders to move fast, and pretty much every class has some sort of group buff. Classes are not viable based on a 10 second raid buff. If it is a tos up between the buff and higher DPS, take bloodthirst away because Marauders are about one thing and one thing only, the only thing they can bring to the table, DPS.

No other class in the entire game has more justification for the top DPS spots than Marauders do and if Snipers still didn't have any self heals, I would say the same exact thing about them regarding RDPS, like I always did before. The irony there being that despite their insane DCDs and self heals they are still the best rDPS DPS wise.

I'm not advocating any buffs for Marauders whatsoever. But nor would I go along with another Marauder nerf of any kind if it was not compensated in some manner DPS wise. Carnage holds the title for most consecutive nerfs in one meta some of which was totally unjustified [5.6], and Annihilation has also been nerfed multiple times as well.

 

Heals matter in PVP and they matter a lot, especially when everyone else you're fighting has them and you don't. No one has more of a right to alpha DPS more than Marauders do, which on the whole they don't have. - Fury is not the only Marauder spec in the game, time for people to start recognizing that.

 

Snipers, and Mercs and Skank tanks, they're all fine, let's nerf the only pure DPS class left in the game some more.

[TrixxieTriss]

My comments are purely from a PvE point of view and you reply with PvP concerns, so our exchange is pointless. I cannot say anything about how the marauder performs in PvP since I don't play much PvP to begin with.

 

So let me be clear my views only represent PvE and not PvP. Consider my views a response to the OP's comment about NiM raiding.

 

I don’t think it’s fair that the other two specs should be doing less when parsing for pve.

[TrixxieTriss]

Skank tanking isn't taking over. lol It used to be a huge thing back when we had expertise gear. It's nothing they will be able to get rid of unless the just revamp the game. Major mistake on their part when they do it.

I do not skank tank, and do quite well in ranked full tank gear. (No bolster relic stuff either.)

 

When was the last time you truely pvpd? Your couple of posts in this thread would indicate you’ve spent little time in pvp over the last 12 months.

[Khelekin]

I don’t think it’s fair that the other two specs should be doing less when parsing for pve.

 

And which class has all specs parsing the same? Is mara parsing much higher than other classes? Is it easy to master?

Edited January 6, 2018 by Khelekin

[TrixxieTriss]

And which class has all specs parsing the same? Is mara parsing much higher than other classes? Is it easy to master?

 

What’s that got to do with anything, No class has all 3 specs parsing the same. That doesn’t mean there should be a big gulf in between them for a pure dps class. But all classes and specs are different and have their own targets that Bioware adjust too.

As far as Mara’s being easy to master, I would argue that no class is easy to really master. Are Mara’s easier to pick up? Depends on what other classes you want to compare them to. Plus all Mara specs are different and require different play styles and complexity. So which spec are you referring to?

[clocknane]

Just a quick question, have you been playing something like a sorc, a sin or a PT against a mara ? Does seeing an entire rotation/opener resisted because of a 45sec cd ability seem normal ? A lot of mara right now, fury specifically are playing with the following rotation right now : Obfuscate > Burst > Camo > Get back in the fight when Obfuscate is back.

It's crazy to see them running away in stealth more than me who play assassin. Anyway that's off topic.

75% F/T resist is just too much for a raw dps class. 25% is more balanced, just like ballistic shield shouldn't heal a sniper.

Sure, other class do need better defensive options, but scalling them to be at a mara's current level would be too much.

Marauder are supposed to be the glass canon spec, when I play mine I find myself more tanky than most of the tanks I see in warzone. Does this seem normal ? Should it stay that way ? Should we keep having all of those bad mara running around in ranked, only carried by this broken utility ? I don't think so.

But again, that's only me.

 

Does seeing an entire rotation/opener resisted because of a 45sec cd ability seem normal?

 

Don't open with rotation if you suspect they will use pacify which triggers the buff. Just hit them, see if they pacify, and if so just heal yourself that 6 seconds.. then after pacify is down, do your burst/rotation. I have had to adapt to mercs who have learned to do this, and still die sometimes as a Sent. The camo skill might seem like a good skill, but good mercs typically will aoe me while camo'd which gives them a huge advantage.

 

If you think mara/sents are more tanky than jugs/guards, something is wrong, or you are overly attacking when sents have Saber up or rebuke or some other defensive CD such as guarded by the force. Again, adapt, don't go balls to the walls if you see those abilities in use.

 

It's crazy to see them running away in stealth more than me who play assassin.

 

I am sorry, but lol.. this is not happening. Our camo last 6-7 seconds and is on a 45 sec CD, compared to sin permanent until they attack or are aoe'd.

 

Obfuscate 60s cd or 45s cd if utility used is a fairly long cd, or at least long enough for you to heal yourself, or prepare for the next incoming damage. Most mara/sents don't wait around 45 secs just for one CD to come up to kill one person, and if they do, they are one vengeful mf.

[Khelekin]

What’s that got to do with anything, No class has all 3 specs parsing the same. That doesn’t mean there should be a big gulf in between them for a pure dps class. But all classes and specs are different and have their own targets that Bioware adjust too.

 

I agree. There should not be a gulf but on the other hand we dont know Bioware's 'targets'.

 

As far as Mara’s being easy to master, I would argue that no class is easy to really master. Are Mara’s easier to pick up? Depends on what other classes you want to compare them to. Plus all Mara specs are different and require different play styles and complexity. So which spec are you referring to?

 

No class is easy to master. Thats a non-answer. I could very well say 'all classes are easy to master, its not like this is rocket science' but that brings nothing to the discussion. Some classes are easier than others. Some have a higher skill ceiling (but its at the skill ceilings that you get the numbers were discussing here). Also I thought we were talking about a specific spec. You know, the one with a gulf behind it.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Khelekin

[shyroman]

I didn’t add anything but abilities. So I’m not wrong because it’s a utility. Not everyone chooses it, so it’s not a DCD ability.

Learn the difference.

 

So according to your logic mercs were not only balanced before their dcd nerfs, but could even be considered underpowered because someone could just not take trauma regulators and buffed kolto. Do you see how dumb that sounds? RA is too strong of a utility and like the merc utilities, should be nerfed. Also you didn’t even mention camo which is a strong dcd as well to stop focus, I’d expect more from someone who claims to know a lot about maras.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Agreed we are talking about Fury, after 3? threads I thought that had been more or less established.

 

I think the devs need to look, like I said something seems wrong.

 

Certainly no harm in looking into it, if it just doesn't look right and you are seeing it repeatedly, than it definitely should be examined.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

What in the world are you smoking?! lol

Snipers are one of the squishiest in game in PvP setting. (Which is what is being discussed here.)

They do NOT have some of the best defensives in game, nor are their "self heals" any good at really healing themselves when being attacked aside from a slight percentage. *SMH*

 

And to claim "tanks take more damage than Snipers do." dude I don't know who or what you've been facing but in PvP, especially ranked, Snipers can easily be taken down.

Tanks, they take & absorb tons of damage, which is their JOB, but they still stand. Half that damage they hold, a sniper crumbles shortly under it. So no that's a bunk of bull.

 

You don't PVP. Ever.

 

Mercs>Snipers> everyone else.

Edited January 6, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[RudeDog]

You don't PVP. Ever.

 

Mercs>Snipers> everyone else.

 

I suppose I just suck, but I main a Gunslinger and I get wrecked in PVP. I don't know how much you have to play to be super good, but I have been playing for years and generally do the weekly, so play pretty often. Generally get 8+ medals per match, but I still feel extremely squishy. Maybe i need some lessons...