So the consequence of making a single player game

[Sareeph]

I always ask if a group-finder team-mate is doing a particular FP for the first time, and say that if they are, then I am prepared to explain as we go. I try to make things as comfortable as I can. I mean we were all new once. If we encourage people and provide a welcoming group experience, they're more likely to keep coming back.

 

Admittedly, I do get bent out of shape in Tacticals if I'm on one of my healers and people insist on panic clicking the kolto stations instead of trusting me - especially if I have said beforehand "Please don't click the kolto stations. Keeping us all alive is my responsibility. If for whatever reason my normal healing isn't enough, I will click the kolto. You guys focus on the fight " or something similar.

 

Oh well. C'est la vie.

 

You are aware that the person clicking the Kolto station gets a massive heal and the others are getting smaller ones? If someone is about to die because of excessive damage, the healer clicking it is wasting resources and could continue to heal while the one about to die clicks the station.

[GalacticKegger]

That's the world upside down. Most people want to space bar through it. So you're imposing your will on three others or else they should stop using the GF?

 

How about you do this with guildies and friends. They are likely to be more understanding than pugs, are they not?

Why can't a space bar check box be added to the GF UI? You want a group that space bars, put a check in the box. You want a group that doesn't space bar, leave the box unchecked. No fuss, no muss, no surprises.

[Eshvara]

Why can't a space bar check box be added to the GF UI? You want a group that space bars, put a check in the box. You want a group that doesn't space bar, leave the box unchecked. No fuss, no muss, no surprises.

 

Seems like a useless feature. I guess it's best if both parties group with friends if they don't want any surprises. While it's sad for those who want new experiences or just pug something, it does carry the risk of having an unpleasant time. I guess it's up to each individual to decide whether that risk is worth it. Although it shouldn't really be a negative experience for people when it comes to communicating with other players.

[Tsillah]

Why can't a space bar check box be added to the GF UI? You want a group that space bars, put a check in the box. You want a group that doesn't space bar, leave the box unchecked. No fuss, no muss, no surprises.

Works for me. It's one of those things I've suggested before as this is not a new discussion. I know BW were saying they were going make changes to the GF in the upcoming patch. Here's hoping...

[GalacticKegger]

Seems like a useless feature. I guess it's best if both parties group with friends if they don't want any surprises. While it's sad for those who want new experiences or just pug something, it does carry the risk of having an unpleasant time. I guess it's up to each individual to decide whether that risk is worth it. Although it shouldn't really be a negative experience for people when it comes to communicating with other players.

Most solo players have little interest in making friends for group play, preferring to be left alone to their solo experience. And with that they develop preferences. So when they do decide to take a break from solo play for some play group, GF is likely their first choice to make that happen. So having a "to space bar or not to space bar" preference option for them would be beneficial I think.

[Eshvara]

Works for me. It's one of those things I've suggested before as this is not a new discussion. I know BW were saying they were going make changes to the GF in the upcoming patch. Here's hoping...

 

What happens when people don't listen though? Like it's accidentally ticked for space barring through but people don't. Do they get kicked or reported?

[IoNonSoEVero]

Putting checkboxes in group finder for 'want to watch story' and letting people indicate if they're newbies up front would probably save everyone a lot of drama.

 

It's a bit of a dichotomy, really. There are a lot of people that will beat the "It's an MMO!" drum and look down on those who don't group, but will also become very impatient with those who are learning to group or dipping their feet in the water to see if it's something they'd enjoy. One can't have it both ways, and toxic behavior and impatience with other players won't inspire them to group in the future. Asking everyone to study guides before doing a flashpoint also seems a little unreasonable to me. I feel like if you know everything before you go in, it takes away the challenge of figuring it out for yourself.

 

I do think it's fair to believe that the expectation is that more experienced players will either be with guilds or their friends if they are interested in grouping for ops and flashpoints, and thus won't be using group finder at all. One of the first emails you get when you buy your first stronghold is encouraging you to get a guild, and they give incentives for that.

 

Thus, IMHO if you're using group finder, one should expect newbies or people who don't group a lot and don't have an interest in that world. With a promotion like Darth Hexid, IMHO it's also reasonable to expect to find a lot of players who don't normally group, just want to knock out their three flashpoints, get it over with and get out of there.

Edited November 11, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Tsillah]

What happens when people don't listen though? Like it's accidentally ticked for space barring through but people don't. Do they get kicked or reported?

Kick and ignore if they don't comply and you don't wanna see em again. Carry on if the person says sorry and you can come to an agreement either way.

 

I wouldn't make it a reportable offence, that won't really do any good.

[Tsillah]

Most solo players have little interest in making friends for group play, preferring to be left alone to their solo experience. And with that they develop preferences. So when they do decide to take a break from solo play for some play group, GF is likely their first choice to make that happen. So having a "to space bar or not to space bar" preference option for them would be beneficial I think.

Another thing I wonder about is this...a lot of FPs have solo modes. I think that's already helpful to people who just want to experience the story.

 

I wonder how many people who want to see the whole conversation also still queue for FPs that have a solo mode and just want to force their wish on others just the same.

[JennyFlynn]

It's sad we even need to have the suggestion of a "spacebarring tickbox" in the LFG tool. It would be so simple just to ask if anyone minds and go from there, or see how many do want to spacebar vs. how many don't. Be considerate both ways. If I'm the only one wanting to sit through the dialogue and read it all, well sucks to be me, I'll spacebar if the majority prefers it.

 

It's ironic because people are choosing to participate in GROUP content yet are only mindful of what serves their own interest/preference...

[Tsillah]

It's sad we even need to have the suggestion of a "spacebarring tickbox" in the LFG tool. It would be so simple just to ask if anyone minds and go from there, or see how many do want to spacebar vs. how many don't.

The problem is that it's not so simple as you suggest.

 

Whenever you ask about these things people don't respond. Whether it's about convo's or tactics people often simply just don't respond. Complete silence. Communication is simply not a given.

 

And what happens if one person doesn't agree with the rest? If they leave they get slapped with a 15 minute penalty for using the GF again.

 

The remaining players will have to wait again to find a replacement.

 

So really it's best that this is known before you enter the FPs and so being able to communicate your preferences in the GF is a good thing in my view. It avoids or rather prevents all kinds of unnecessary and unpleasant situations.

[Eshvara]

Kick and ignore if they don't comply and you don't wanna see em again. Carry on if the person says sorry and you can come to an agreement either way.

 

I wouldn't make it a reportable offence, that won't really do any good.

 

The current class selection in the group finder doesn't exactly work properly either. (Unless they changed it) I haven't done PvE since forever.

But I'd see people queue as healer unintentionally and end up as DPS as they meant to, then get b*tched at by players for selecting the wrong role.

 

I feel like the tick space bar thing will just be more of the same.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Eshvara

[GalacticKegger]

It's sad we even need to have the suggestion of a "spacebarring tickbox" in the LFG tool. It would be so simple just to ask if anyone minds and go from there, or see how many do want to spacebar vs. how many don't. Be considerate both ways. If I'm the only one wanting to sit through the dialogue and read it all, well sucks to be me, I'll spacebar if the majority prefers it.

 

It's ironic because people are choosing to participate in GROUP content yet are only mindful of what serves their own interest/preference...

The problem with simply asking is that GF players can't physically ask until everyone is already grouped. At which point it's too late and the odd-player(s) out will either get kicked or leave after the first dialogue. Being auto-teamed with other similarly-inclined individuals before hand would largely alleviate players leaving or getting kicked for their preferences. Edited November 12, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Tsillah]

The current class selection in the group finder doesn't exactly work properly either. (Unless they changed it) I haven't done PvE since forever.

But I'd see people queue as healer unintentionally and end up as DPS as they meant to, then get b*tched at by players for selecting the wrong role.

 

I feel like the tick space bar thing will just be more of the same.

The GF needs a lot of help. There is much that is wrong with it.

 

The thing is also this. If you queue as healer and are not and people wanted a healer then what happens? A lot of time wastage because there is the discussion and having to replace the person, meaning they have to wait again. Often people already wait for 10-20 mins in the GF before a group pops, then you get a group and you still can't play because someone picked the wrong role. Honestly, I get the frustration. It's not nice to ***** at someone but the result of the mistake is also not nice and the GF is part of the reason why.

 

I really hope the GF gets changed a LOT, because it's never been a good tool for getting people together.

[Eshvara]

The GF needs a lot of help. There is much that is wrong with it.

 

The thing is also this. If you queue as healer and are not and people wanted a healer then what happens? A lot of time wastage because there is the discussion and having to replace the person, meaning they have to wait again. Often people already wait for 10-20 mins in the GF before a group pops, then you get a group and you still can't play because someone picked the wrong role. Honestly, I get the frustration. It's not nice to ***** at someone but the result of the mistake is also not nice and the GF is part of the reason why.

 

I really hope the GF gets changed a LOT, because it's never been a good tool for getting people together.

 

Agreed, it sucks.😕

[DWho]

Whenever you ask about these things people don't respond. Whether it's about convo's or tactics people often simply just don't respond. Complete silence. Communication is simply not a given.

 

This is probably the most true statement so far regarding GF runs. If you are lucky 1 or 2 people say "hi" at the start and say "thanks" or "gotta go" at the end with nothing said in between. It seems to matter little if it is someone new or someone going through for the umpteenth time. Not exactly the paragon of social interaction GF has at time been made out to be.

[GalacticKegger]

I really hope the GF gets changed a LOT, because it's never been a good tool for getting people together.

I personally think that GF has been a good tool for putting groups together. The problem is its inability to match based on levels of playing skill, which seems to be the primary complaint. Bolstering pretty much took level and gearing expertise out of the equation. So about all that remains to accurately filter players based on skill would be via achievements. The devs can't even give us full loot tables, so I don't see how they could pull that off. Edited November 12, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Costello]

I don't think this is the consequence of a single player game. Its rather the consequence of offering group content people don't want to do.

 

Most pug groups I've been in are focused on getting through the content as quickly as possible, be that stunning mobs to sneak past, avoiding bonus bosses or simply avoiding self heals to keep running forward. And this works, the decent players carry the idiots through, so they are vindicated. Got the reward for minimal time invested, thats a win. So helping out a noob is never going to happen. They are trying to skip as much of the content as possible and your wanting them to sit around for 5 mins explaining things.

 

But then its a pug group, why should you expect random strangers to take time of their speed run to educate you. What are you bringing to the experience to merit their time invested. Maybe after signing up to do something its not the best time to say 'I don't know what I'm doing' which has to leave the other players asking why sign up then.

 

Ultimately though if people aren't interested in the content they wont be interested in dragging it out and this is a real shame cause there are some group only activities that might be a lot of fun if you could take your time and do them solo. Not feeling that everyone is waiting on you when you go look at whats past that next door or enjoy the experience where you get to battle the enemy forces on that battle station as opposed to stealth stun and run passed everything. As if all people want to do is speed run through the content, whats the point of adding more group content as it will be the same experience of trying to avoid it.

 

I think thats why uprisings failed so badly, a great idea that was implemented in a way that people weren't expected to enjoy it but get in a group and rush through as quickly as possible and to repeat so many times that it became annoying if anyone did stop to look around, didn't they know it needed to be ground out 10 more times!

[DWho]

But then its a pug group, why should you expect random strangers to take time of their speed run to educate you. What are you bringing to the experience to merit their time invested. Maybe after signing up to do something its not the best time to say 'I don't know what I'm doing' which has to leave the other players asking why sign up then.

 

And this is the problem with PUG groups. They bring nothing to the game and are only a tool to gain xp/cxp as fast as possible. The intent of GF was to make group play more available to the masses not more frustrating for those who are just learning.

 

People who speed run could easily group with each other outside GF if they wanted to (its much harder for players new to group play to group up whether that be in finding a guild or other like minded players) but it seems that is too much effort and it is better to call those just learning the ropes names and kick them from the group thus turning them off of the group content permanently. It is much the same with PVP. A very small number of individuals drive away lots of potential players and then complain there is no one to play with.

 

Edit: Perhaps the answer is to get rid of Group Finder altogether and create a Guild Finder function where guilds can advertise for members and state what they offer. Speedrunners could even start their own guild that focuses on racing through content. That way the speedrunners can group together and the players who want to learn the group content can be in a more friendly environment. Guilds could even offer "training runs" in this "Guild Finder" so people could try them out and see if it is a guild they want to stay with. Then you would have an MMO, where people actually interact instead of hundreds of people standing around the fleet doing nothing with only the trolls chatting

Edited November 12, 2017 by DWho

[DanNV]

I tried once more and witnessed the group discuss kicking me because I wasn't spacebarring. I don't know, perhaps I just got unlucky lol. I may try again in the future but I hardly feel encouraged.

 

I always say something if I'm in a group that starts that. Then I stop space barring, too.

 

there are more than a couple of large guilds on each server that have "newbie" ops runs every week, specifically designed for those who don't no anything about the mechanics of that ops or ops in general. Ask around if you want to give it a try .. then you'll rarely need the PUG after that.

 

My guild used to do a beginner's op night once a week, but so many people have left that we don't do it anymore. However, we frequently have openings on Thursdays, and will teach people and do something to help them get some gear if they need it.

[BorisKarloffe]

I assumed you meant a lousy or inexperienced tank. What does it mean exactly? I'm familiar with scrank or scranker but those are not really pejorative terms.

 

The term "skank tank" originated from pvp, particularly from team ranked matches where teams were using tanks in dps gear and/or spec to try to one up the competition. As I described earlier, it was a player using a class that could tank that would be in tank spec but dps gear.

 

In pvp, at least you had to be in tank spec to get in the matchmaker, but for FP groupfinder, this requirement isn't there and anyone can queue for whichever roles their class can perform regardless of what spec or gear they're in.

 

PVP was largely the only place you would encounter such (along with a few Operations Boss encounters where only one real tank is required), but as I mentioned earlier, I'm running into more and more of them in the Master FP queues.

[Fallensouls]

LOL I've done plenty of pug FPs using group finder and haven't failed even one of them. The groups I been in were good and most of them were pretty cool to play with. Its nice the wait times are lower than they have been in a very long time.

[RikuvonDrake]

Increase the influence of your companion to 50 and queue with a friend, then you always have the option to vote kick people who are annoying or not pulling their weight, more often than not your companion is likely to do more DPS than the PUG anyway.

 

I and a friend ran three flashpoints/uprisings earlier this week and we ended up with a really ****** person in our last Mastermode Flashpoints, he would stop and loot every single mob (they reward between 20 and 50 credits each) and thus end up far behind us and not contribute at all. During boss fights, we would tell him basic tactics cause it was clear he was new, but he would ignore them and die/be useless anyway, ended up killing all bosses but before we clicked the final console we kicked him.

 

Naturally, he started with angry whispers but that became a quick report and a ignore, hopefully, he learns for next time.

Edited November 12, 2017 by RikuvonDrake

[grania]

The term "skank tank" originated from pvp, particularly from team ranked matches where teams were using tanks in dps gear and/or spec to try to one up the competition. As I described earlier, it was a player using a class that could tank that would be in tank spec but dps gear.

 

In pvp, at least you had to be in tank spec to get in the matchmaker, but for FP groupfinder, this requirement isn't there and anyone can queue for whichever roles their class can perform regardless of what spec or gear they're in.

 

PVP was largely the only place you would encounter such (along with a few Operations Boss encounters where only one real tank is required), but as I mentioned earlier, I'm running into more and more of them in the Master FP queues.

 

Thanks for the explanation. That's funny because it's very similar to the scrank I mentioned. But in the game where that word was coined, it was simply a playstyle choice, not anything that would hurt a group or game a system. Perhaps that was a benefit of having no groupfinder (not that anyone would turn down a scrank.). Groups were hand picked from the /who list.

 

I'm leveling an immortal juggernaut right now for fun. And I will only ever solo with her or help out with heroics if anyone ever wants me. Hopefully no one will look at her dps gear and get the wrong impression.

[Suzsi]

I don't think this is the consequence of a single player game. Its rather the consequence of offering group content people don't want to do.

 

Most pug groups I've been in are focused on getting through the content as quickly as possible, be that stunning mobs to sneak past, avoiding bonus bosses or simply avoiding self heals to keep running forward. And this works, the decent players carry the idiots through, so they are vindicated. Got the reward for minimal time invested, thats a win. So helping out a noob is never going to happen. They are trying to skip as much of the content as possible and your wanting them to sit around for 5 mins explaining things.

 

But then its a pug group, why should you expect random strangers to take time of their speed run to educate you. What are you bringing to the experience to merit their time invested. Maybe after signing up to do something its not the best time to say 'I don't know what I'm doing' which has to leave the other players asking why sign up then.

 

Ultimately though if people aren't interested in the content they wont be interested in dragging it out and this is a real shame cause there are some group only activities that might be a lot of fun if you could take your time and do them solo. Not feeling that everyone is waiting on you when you go look at whats past that next door or enjoy the experience where you get to battle the enemy forces on that battle station as opposed to stealth stun and run passed everything. As if all people want to do is speed run through the content, whats the point of adding more group content as it will be the same experience of trying to avoid it.

 

I think thats why uprisings failed so badly, a great idea that was implemented in a way that people weren't expected to enjoy it but get in a group and rush through as quickly as possible and to repeat so many times that it became annoying if anyone did stop to look around, didn't they know it needed to be ground out 10 more times!

 

Are you serious?

 

If they never sign up how the hell do you expect them to ever meet people and / or learn the content?

 

You see back in the early days of mmos thats exactly what lfg tools where for. Non-guilded new folks to get out there, learn the content, meet people and find themselves a guild of like minded people to play with. Guilds were for everything else.

 

So folks take your speed runs to the guild groups and your patience and teaching into pugs where folks go to meet people and learn the only way they can. Stop ******** all over new ppl and putting them off and you might actually get somewhere. Also maybe even meet your next guildy.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Suzsi