Create an instanced 'open world pvp zone' similar to other mmorpg games

[Froweey]

i just recently resubbed to the game after quitting back in 2011 due to performance issues and WoW still being relevant at that time. i quit mmorpgs about two years ago and haven't played an mmorpg since then. Now i'm playing SWTOR and am in love with all the changes and enhancements.

 

That being said, I queued for Warfronts and they are really fun!

 

However i feel like SWTOR could use some sort of instanced "open world" PvP zone similar to Cyrodil (eso) or how Guild Wars 2 did it with their WorldvsWorld implementation. Granted both of those games are utter garbage, but I'm positive that it would work for this game.

 

Signed,

Like Everyone

[GalacticKegger]

Planets (other than starter planets) have a PvP instance that is selectable from the minimap.

[Froweey]

Planets (other than starter planets) have a PvP instance that is selectable from the minimap.

 

I understand your point of view, but I've tried that but it doesn't offer what other MMORPGs like Guild Wars 2's World vs World and ESO's Cyrodil offers. A planet with open world PvP with PvP objectives is what I'm suggesting.

 

Signed,

Everyone

[LordFell]

Signed,

Everyone

Signed... who?

[PetFish]

Here's the sad part: the game engine can't handle it at all.

 

Just last night, somehow, it's a miracle really, there was PvP on Oricon on Harbinger. We had around 24 on each side, so 48 total, sometimes more and sometimes less, and I was getting 0.2 FPS (1 frame every 5 seconds) so I had to leave.

 

Before it was that many, maybe 14 vs 14 it wasn't terrible but still nearly unplayable at 8 FPS but at least it was possible to get kills for the "Give in to Your Anger" achievement.

 

TL;DR - Unless they overhaul the game with a new engine and build from the ground up open-world PvP will never be possible.

[Froweey]

Signed... who?

 

Signed you

[Froweey]

Here's the sad part: the game engine can't handle it at all.

 

Just last night, somehow, it's a miracle really, there was PvP on Oricon on Harbinger. We had around 24 on each side, so 48 total, sometimes more and sometimes less, and I was getting 0.2 FPS (1 frame every 5 seconds) so I had to leave.

 

Before it was that many, maybe 14 vs 14 it wasn't terrible but still nearly unplayable at 8 FPS but at least it was possible to get kills for the "Give in to Your Anger" achievement.

 

TL;DR - Unless they overhaul the game with a new engine and build from the ground up open-world PvP will never be possible.

 

I see, but it looks like SWTOR is using the Hero Engine right? I checked their site and it seems ESO also uses it and World PvP in Cyrodil runs great, even on consoles.

 

So maybe there is hope, perhaps the problem lies with the terrain or buildings present in the world. Maybe in this proposed new planet they limit these structures or objects to improve FPS. Just an idea.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Froweey

[SolarSaenz]

In the very early days of the game, there was Ilum open world PVP. Sadly, when too many players participated (which is what you want, a lot of people to pvp with) the game would start to look like a slide show instead of smooth animation.

There was also some place on Tatooine that was a pvp open world area, the outlaws den. Even when it was a pvp only zone, I hardly ever saw anyone there PVPing.

[Ratajack]

I see, but it looks like SWTOR is using the Hero Engine right? I checked their site and it seems ESO also uses it and World PvP in Cyrodil runs great, even on consoles.

 

So maybe there is hope, perhaps the problem lies with the terrain or buildings present in the world. Maybe in this proposed new planet they limit these structures or objects to improve FPS. Just an idea.

 

Unless I am mistaken, this game uses a very heavily modified alpha version of the Hero engine.

 

 

I'm guessing that after those modifications, the game engine bears as little resemblance to the Hero engine as a Model T does to a Ferrari.

[LordFell]

Signed you

Yeah. No.

 

/not signed.

 

Speak for yourself. I'm tired of PvP (which is a side game) interfering with my PvE (which is... the real game). Devoting resources to PvP changes, or increasing more PvP is not something I'll ever support.

[Vercundus]

Since you haven't been here since 2011, I suggest to read up on what you have missed first, before making such a suggestion.

[Jason_McHell]

I'm tired of PvP (which is a side game) interfering with my PvE (which is... the real game). Devoting resources to PvP changes, or increasing more PvP is not something I'll ever support.

 

Marvellous, my friend! So basically you say that in the game genre built around player interaction (that MMO part of the name gives a clue) the most intense and variation-rich part of player interaction (player-vs-player combat) is a "Side Game". Completely marvellous!

 

Comment: this is what happens when you make a multiplayer game that can be played like single-player game.

 

To the topic starter: Open-World PvP area is doomed unless there are rewards for participating. Say, 1 Unassembled Component per kill would be fine. Without that there is no real incentive to get into it for an average player. Anyone who REALLY wants to just PvP for the joy could switch to PvP instance (which is currently dead and empty)

Edited October 31, 2017 by Jason_McHell

[SteveTheCynic]

To the topic starter: Open-World PvP area is doomed unless there are rewards for participating. Say, 1 Unassembled Component per kill would be fine. Without that there is no real incentive to get into it for an average player. Anyone who REALLY wants to just PvP for the joy could switch to PvP instance (which is currently dead and empty)

It's dead and empty because nobody likes being whacked just for taking a walk. Sorry. Nobody likes being ganked just because they showed up.

 

PvP for the joy would mean Warzones in my book.

[Jason_McHell]

It's dead and empty because nobody likes being whacked just for taking a walk. Sorry. Nobody likes being ganked just because they showed up.

 

PvP for the joy would mean Warzones in my book.

 

Sorry for misleading choice of words. What I really meant is "Anyone who wants to do open-world pvp like it is now, without any kind of substantial reward, e.g. just for the joy of pvp in open world, can switch to pvp instance etc. etc."

 

I started out on ToFN, EU En PvP server, so I have had my share of ganking both as a victim and an assailant. It was actually bad for three main reasons:

 

1) Level difference (cap guys stalking Tatooine outposts for the lowbies), partially fixed by level sync

2) PvP and Ranked gear advantage even comparing to the top-notch PvE gear, partially fixed by new gearing system

3) Ganker teams hunting single targets around quest objectives. May be fixed by dedicated area which will not be related to ANY OTHER activities

 

Currently an Outlaw Den exists as such location, but as I've said, without any incentive to actually participate it is doomed to stay dead and empty, as warzones offer basically the same gameplay but with actual rewards for it. 1UC/Kill would be just fine: offering approximately the same reward level as in warzones, but for a different gameplay.

 

This has some drawbacks, like people trading kills. To avoid that, a rate limit may be placed (for example, you get a two-minute debuff after receiving an UC, and every kill reduces it by 30 seconds in addition to the time ticking down by itself). Thus BW can tune reward rates however they like.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Jason_McHell

[SteveTheCynic]

Sorry for misleading choice of words. What I really meant is "Anyone who wants to do open-world pvp like it is now, without any kind of substantial reward, e.g. just for the joy of pvp in open world, can switch to pvp instance etc. etc."

 

I started out on ToFN, EU En PvP server, so I have had my share of ganking both as a victim and an assailant. It was actually baad for three main reasons:

1) Level difference (cap guys stalking Tatooine outposts for the lowbies), partially fixed by level sync

2) PvP and Ranked gear advantage even comparing to the top-notch PvE gear, partially fixed by new gearing system

3) Ganker teams hunting single targets around quest objectives. May be fixed by dedicated area which will not be related to ANY OTHER activities

 

Currently an Outlaw Den exists as such location, but as I've said, without any incentive it is doomed to stay dead and empty, as warzone offer basically the same gamplay but with actual rewards for it.

 

Are you okay with this?

Sure, no problem. Don't expect me to show up, but I don't have a problem with adding such a thing.

 

My comment was more directed at pointing out that it's dead because there is no particular reason to be there, and plenty of reason NOT to be there. If there was a positive reason to be there, then that situation would change. Not sure how you prevent blatant win trading and similar, though.

[Jason_McHell]

Sure, no problem. Don't expect me to show up, but I don't have a problem with adding such a thing.

 

My comment was more directed at pointing out that it's dead because there is no particular reason to be there, and plenty of reason NOT to be there. If there was a positive reason to be there, then that situation would change. Not sure how you prevent blatant win trading and similar, though.

 

Seems like I have edited my post above while you were typing the reply, sorry for that. Especially the last section, where I made a suggestion about the rewards.

[JamieKirby]

The only thing world pvp does is allow other players to pounce on other players that just don't want to do that crap.

 

I tried a pvp realm on world of warcraft and, the moment i hit the contested zones, i was ganked by 2+ level ?? players of the other faction...ever 60mins or so.

 

It pretty much killed ANY desire for pvp, i just find it a playground for players that just want easy wins with as little effort as possible, which is surprising since 100% of the pvp'ers i have asked have said, they do pvp for the player skill, they are better than the AI, which is true, but the players just seem to find the perfect tactic that has the least weaknesses and just never deviate from it.

 

The AI, even though they do it terribly, they atleast do what they were designed to do.....using all abilities to how they were meant to be used, players don't.

[IoNonSoEVero]

The only thing world pvp does is allow other players to pounce on other players that just don't want to do that crap.

 

This. The PvP servers were the first to depopulate and the PvP instances on the current servers are much less busy than the PvE ones. Players have said very clearly in very large numbers that they prefer to play in PvE environments.

 

The game does offer incentives - UCs that aren't given in PvE (for now); exclusive decos (at one time); rewards just for showing up for matches; companion bribes (Pierce on the Imperial side if you're not a Sith Warrior, and Darth Hexid coming up)...and people still don't want to do PvP, which speaks volumes. It's not something a lot of players enjoy or want to do or be forced to take part in. For myself, I find the idea of killing other players for fun, or being attacked by them, to be completely off-putting, and I won't touch it.

[Jason_McHell]

The only thing world pvp does is allow other players to pounce on other players that just don't want to do that crap.

I tried a pvp realm on world of warcraft and, the moment i hit the contested zones, i was ganked by 2+ level ?? players of the other faction...ever 60mins or so.

This. The PvP servers were the first to depopulate and the PvP instances on the current servers are much less busy than the PvE ones. Players have said very clearly in very large numbers that they prefer to play in PvE environments.

 

To you, good Sirs, I would like to point out a couple of things. But before I start, let's define what we are talking about: a dedicated(1) environment which is not tied to any quests(2) and with incentive to participate(3). So, let's get to the point:

1) "Pounce on players that do not want" is not going to happen, because of (1) and (2): if you are in the area, you are there willingly, ain't you? I doubt that some pvp maniac could drag you forcibly in the area which has absolutely nothing to do except pvp, just to grief on you, could he?

2) "level ?? players" also ain't gonna happen, as we have got level synchronization now. And such environment, if created, will be aimed at cap-level players anyways.

3) "The PvP servers were the first to depopulate" because of the crappy mechanics: low-level players suffered from cap guys coming to their planets and just one-shotting everything. And before they actually introduced level sync, they introduced "almost free" transfer (lol, 90cc/char, really?), so everyone hurried to PvE servers to avoid that crap. As of now it is much more viable for lowbies, they just need to group up (which is basically the point of MMO, no?)

4) PvP instances on the current servers are much less busy than the PvE ones because they lack incentive, which was number (3) I pointed out earlier. Why bother with almost empty world-pvp-instance for free, if you can do WZ and receive CXP/UC?

 

If something like this environment would be added, you would not even notice, as you would not visit it, unless you want to. So what's the problem?

[Nyla]

This. The PvP servers were the first to depopulate and the PvP instances on the current servers are much less busy than the PvE ones. Players have said very clearly in very large numbers that they prefer to play in PvE environments.

 

The game does offer incentives - UCs that aren't given in PvE (for now); exclusive decos (at one time); rewards just for showing up for matches; companion bribes (Pierce on the Imperial side if you're not a Sith Warrior, and Darth Hexid coming up)...and people still don't want to do PvP, which speaks volumes. It's not something a lot of players enjoy or want to do or be forced to take part in. For myself, I find the idea of killing other players for fun, or being attacked by them, to be completely off-putting, and I won't touch it.

 

I like this argument about numbers, like it really means something.

 

PvP servers existed only because of open world PvP. As PvP is based on gear and rewards were gained only in warzones, there was no real reason to play open world PvP so no real reason to be on PvP servers.

 

The only thing the state of PvP servers/instances shows is that PvE is somewhat properly designed and implemented while PvP is not.

 

 

As for the OP, it won't happen in SWTOR because EA would need to invest a lot more than what they are willing.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I like this argument about numbers, like it really means something.

 

PvP servers existed only because of open world PvP. As PvP is based on gear and rewards were gained only in warzones, there was no real reason to play open world PvP so no real reason to be on PvP servers.

 

The only thing the state of PvP servers/instances shows is that PvE is somewhat properly designed and implemented while PvP is not.

 

 

As for the OP, it won't happen in SWTOR because EA would need to invest a lot more than what they are willing.

 

I would also argue that the less populated PvP servers, instances and less participation in things like warzones does in fact mean that many players simply don't want to be in an environment where they risk being attacked by other players simply for existing. And I would argue that all the bribes and incentives added to warzones to try to get people to play - which are still refused by many players - hammer home that point. For a fair number of players, there's absolutely nothing they could offer that would compel us to participate in PvP.

[Nyla]

I would also argue that the less populated PvP servers, instances and less participation in things like warzones does in fact mean that many players simply don't want to be in an environment where they risk being attacked by other players simply for existing. And I would argue that all the bribes and incentives added to warzones to try to get people to play - which are still refused by many players - hammer home that point. For a fair number of players, there's absolutely nothing they could offer that would compel us to participate in PvP.

 

I understand that, I know some people don't want to do any PvP at all.

 

I also know that despite all the bribes and incentives, a fair number of players aren't interested at all in PvE endgame which they found utterly boring.

 

Anyway we could argue forever but it's pointless. Other games have shown clearly there is a playerbase for many kinds of content, including PvP. Problems come from bad designs and implementations.

[LordFell]

Marvellous, my friend! So basically you say that in the game genre built around player interaction (that MMO part of the name gives a clue) the most intense and variation-rich part of player interaction (player-vs-player combat) is a "Side Game". Completely marvellous!

I've played a bunch of MMOs, Warcraft, LOTRO, Guild Wars... lots of'em. In every single instance, the truth about PvP is that it's a side game. I mean, in LOTRO you can't even PvP as "a bad guy" on your regular character, you have to create a separate Servant of Sauron character (orcs, goblins, wraiths and spiders).

 

It's a fact. Developers have said so. Everyone knows it... even you. PvP is a side game.

...well, I mean, if you refused to acknowledge it, or were somehow deluded about this, now you know. I hope this wasn't a shock.

 

... you really think that PvP is "intense" and "variation rich"? I don't really see any room for variation in PvP. I also don't particularly care for that brand of intensity. As someone who typically never PvPs, what this mostly means to me is getting killed by someone who really likes to PvP -and I got better, more enjoyable things to do. I do recall when my guild won a Conquest. We'd gather on our Flagship, move to the planet, disembark and massacre every enemy faction settlement on the planet, and any player who was foolish enough to get in our way. If this was enjoyable, or intense for me... it was because it was my guild... my e-family bonding. The after-party in our Stronghold was probably more intense, variation rich, and enjoyable for me.

[Jason_McHell]

...I've played a bunch of MMOs, Warcraft, LOTRO, Guild Wars...

...the truth about PvP is that it's a side game...

...It's a fact. Developers have said so. Everyone knows it... even you. PvP is a side game....

... you really think that PvP is "intense" and "variation rich"? I don't really see any room for variation in PvP...

... I also don't particularly care for that brand of intensity...

...As someone who typically never PvPs...

 

Now you have admitted that you have barely done PvP in this game, that you do not like any kind of PvP, that you have not played any PvP-inclined MMO (like Archeage or Eve Online), and yet you think yourself competent enough to judge whether PVP is a side game in.. well, anywhere? You, kind Sir, are a truly hilarious person!

 

The only reason PvP looks like a "side game" is because its problems are long neglected by dev team, mostly due to "experts" like you, kind Sir.

 

Ow, and about variation and intensity: variation is the base of player interaction; while ops have optimal, almost step-by-step tactics that are key to winning, pvp is another deal alltogether. And heya, think this: never ever any ops boss, no matter how well-scripted it is, could make a person mash the keyboard as hard, as could an average Concealment Operative opening up on top of said person. If that is not intense, well... You probably have not tried.

[LordFell]

Hmm. I guess I can concede that there is a kind of variation to fighting another player that you can't get from an Ops Boss. I'll give you that.

 

Oddly enough, I did try to play both Archeage and Eve. I was never able to log in (although I haven't tried recently). Both of these games, I think, have an aggressive system designed to prevent people from logging in with 3rd party programs that might give unfair advantage; I think Archeage desided my "tea timer" anti-virus was some sort of scripting program. I haven't tried in ages, though...

 

In any case... if you look at any game that has some sort of story to it. Warcraft for sure, obviously SWTOR... progression of that story is never tied to PvP. Your characters play through the story quests in a region, do the Group Content that's tied to the Story... and the Story progresses outside of PvP activity entirely. Arcann will be deposed as Emperor based on whether you finish your PvE chapters. It doesn't matter how often you do your GSF queues (fighting for General Ayago or for Admiral Rankin, who... oddly, are now both part of the Eternal Empire, what?) The fate of the Eternal Throne will never be changed by doing PvP on Ilum for Gree Goodies... and this story progression is always tied to PvE, not PvP.

...and that, my friend, is why PvP is a side game.

 

And to be honest, I was taking umbrage with the OPs insistance on signing "Everyone." No, dummie, speak for yourself. Normally I don't comment on PvP because I don't care (other to voice my irritation when your PvP balance interferes with my PvE play) but my ire was peaked.