No rage : Logic why the west coast would have been a better decision.

[GalacticKegger]

I'm in Hawaii.

[xordevoreaux]

Why do you think that they won’t merge the EU with the US?... they actually have better ping to the east coast than most west coast people have to the east coast

 

I posted something meaningful and then deleted it.

Rant. This conversation's over for me and I won't be reacting to any more of your threads. You have my IP hops, good enough. Goodbye.

Edited October 28, 2017 by xordevoreaux

[Cawyden]

Icy, how long, seriously, have you ever spent at one time hanging out on fleet on Vanjervalis Chain. Jar’Kai Sword? T3-M4, perhaps? How much English do you hear when you're there?

 

You speak of logic, and of making logical arguments. We're talking Europe. Ever watch the news? They burn down each other's soccer stadiums. Bad idea to toss them all together, and that's one thing Bioware knew way back when.

 

Where is the logic in mixing such contrasting cultures and languages? Apparently someone long ago realized fiercely independent German and French populations don't want to see each other's chat in the game.

 

That does sound a little dramatic - take Star Trek Online for example - there is a single Server for all. Most of the chat is in english but I see often people writing in german as well. This is not a problem. And don't forget that many people in Europe do speak English. And I (as a German) have no problems with other people no matter which language they speak - it is just that I can only speak german and english and very few words french so I would not react to other languages in chat. But that does not mean that it bothers me.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Cawyden

[aerockyul]

Lol what a silly post they won't merge EU with US servers ever the only thing you are on point with is the game being in a death spiral but merging any EU to US you need to go back to sleep.

 

Dancing on the grave of APAC players while they're digging for the EU. Your optimism is foolish in the face of current events...

 

I'm sure EA is quaking at the thought of getting rid of more expendable non-NA players. As someone mentioned, less costs to localize and cost cutting is the name of the game going forward.

 

White knights will successfully change EAs mind, though. They really appreciate and respond to the obtuse efforts, you know.

[Icykill_]

That does sound a little dramatic - take Star Trek Online for example - there is a single Server for all. Most of the chat is in english but I see often people writing in german as well. This is not a problem. And don't forget that many people in Europe do speak English. And I (as a German) have no problems with other people no matter which language they speak - it is just that I can only speak german and english and very few words french so I would not react to other languages in chat. But that does not mean that it bothers me.

 

Yes, it did seem over dramatic and I’m not really sure where it came from or why it was directed at me as I’m in the APAC region

[nyrkverse]

I really don't think that the existence of 2 different localizations is going to keep the European servers where they are indefinitely. Right now, there's enough of us and Ireland (where the servers for all of Europe are physically located) is a bit of a tax haven for corporations, so we're safe. But things change, if it becomes cheaper to fold Euro into NA, they'll do it. Why wouldn't they? Out of respect for their playerbase preferences and expectations? It didn't work so well for our APAC friends, did it?

 

So I don't understand why people are taking issues with Icy's "speculation". It makes sense that part of the reason why they chose East coast is to keep that option open for the future. I'd imagine cutting costs was the primary motivation but while they're at it...

 

Also can I laugh at the depiction of Europe as a battlefield of warring national tribes? The Red Eclipse has had players from all over forever (including Germans and French, despite the localized servers) and we get along just fine. Most guilds have many nationalities in them and people actually enjoy that. No fires

Edited October 28, 2017 by nyrkverse

[Talon_strikes]

Lol what a silly post they won't merge EU with US servers ever the only thing you are on point with is the game being in a death spiral but merging any EU to US you need to go back to sleep.

Don't think the EU is untouchable. Look at what happened to the APAC players years ago when they closed their servers and forced them to go to Harb. Plus, the EU servers minus TRE have been dead for years. Now look at what BW is doing to the APAC players again on top of their west coast players. I wouldn't be surprised if having one east coast datacenter is their endgame.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[cyrusramsey]

Well.. there's no telling what the future brings, but I don't think they're looking that far ahead.

 

Though.. I've been able to play some of the more difficult content in this game on a west coast server while I'm based in Europe, with no problems whatsoever. My connection seemed to handle it better than even the APAC players. It would've seemed plenty fair to me to focus on the west coast even if consolidating everything into one server/location was the ultimate goal. But fairness isn't a factor at all, only money is.

 

I re-read what I typed.. and the fact of the matter is, there will always be someone on the opposite end of the world, wherever you put the server. Fairness simply can't be a factor.

 

Truthfully, though, as long as they've let the current situation drag on, where empty pvp servers must have surely chased prospective customers away, I can't imagine we'll be seeing a large change like this for many years, assuming the game lasts that long.

Edited October 28, 2017 by cyrusramsey

[Tsillah]

Don't think the EU is untouchable. Look at what happened to the APAC players years ago when they closed their servers and forced them to go to Harb. Plus, the EU servers minus TRE have been dead for years. Now look at what BW is doing to the APAC players again on top of their west coast players. I wouldn't be surprised if having one east coast datacenter is their endgame.

Doubt it. If the game gets to the point that they only need one server for the whole world, I suspect the game probably won't be financially viable anymore for them to keep the game alive at all.

 

This current move clearly is about cost efficiency and upgrading at the same time to keep the game running for a while yet. If successful then the game may have some years in it yet, but that will depend on other factors like new content. If they don't manage to keep enough players, then a next server move might be 1 US server and 1 EU server but already then I wonder if the game can still turn a profit with so few players.

 

It appears to me that they really need to turn things around somewhere to keep people here and have a little bit of positive growth again in the player base. I suspect that if they cannot achieve this in the next year that this game is in danger of really going into maintenance mode till they close the doors because the game isn't making any money anymore.

 

So I have to hope things will get better in the next while but the cynic in me wants to see it to believe, because this hasn't been the best year for the game to put it mildly.

[-Spc]

Well i currenlty have 20-25ms to red eclipse, if they move red eclipse to US, will have 110-158ms.

That's alot of delay.

 

This is 800% more delay than what i have now.

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by -Spc

[Talon_strikes]

This current move clearly is about cost efficiency and upgrading at the same time to keep the game running for a while yet.

People keep saying this but if it really was about cost-efficiency while keeping the game running a while longer then this should have been done at least 2 years ago! But nooo, BW allowed the rhetoric of a vocal minority against server merges to run rampant at the expense of servers dying left and right.

 

Even now, when it seems like it's "better late than never", they're continuing to make mistakes, ones that shouldn't even be happening. This game cannot continue to lose more players and communities en masse, yet what has transpired these past couple of weeks is the death of the RP and APAC communities as we know them. Now with Icykill making this thread I wouldn't be surprised if down the line the EU players would be next.

 

It appears to me that they really need to turn things around somewhere to keep people here and have a little bit of positive growth again in the player base. I suspect that if they cannot achieve this in the next year that this game is in danger of really going into maintenance mode till they close the doors because the game isn't making any money anymore.

Their approval of finally moving through with server merges was a great way to reset the narrative but even they messed that up! I still firmly believe that one server should be necessary for the US since Harb's Satele Shan and Ebon Hawk's Star Forge are going to be competing for the same players, just as Shadowlands and JC have been doing.

 

I can't say I know a lot about how this game has been doing financially. I haven't been looking at EA's quarterly reports but I'd assume the CM is still raking in enough to keep this game profitable by EA standards.

 

So I have to hope things will get better in the next while but the cynic in me wants to see it to believe, because this hasn't been the best year for the game to put it mildly.

I've honestly just about had it. I'm seriously questioning why I'm here when Harbinger is at its lowest it's ever been population-wise and the primetime window is the smallest it's ever been. Ranked PvP is a mess with throwers and there's so few players in queue now.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Tsillah]

People keep saying this but if it really was about cost-efficiency while keeping the game running a while longer then this should have been done at least 2 years ago! But nooo, BW allowed the rhetoric of a vocal minority against server merges to run rampant at the expense of servers dying left and right.

I said cost-efficiency and upgrading at the same time. Please note that this is in conjunction with the decision to do server merges.

Two years ago they probably still had the hopes of turning the game around and being able to maintain the servers. Clearly 4.0 and 5.0 didn't deliver what they hoped for. Server merges are sort of a last resort. You don't tend to use a last resort until it's, well, the last resort.

I do think that it would've made sense already to do this last year but that was Ben Irving's age and let's just say that I don't believe he had a firm grip on reality.

Even now, when it seems like it's "better late than never", they're continuing to make mistakes, ones that shouldn't even be happening. This game cannot continue to lose more players and communities en masse, yet what has happened these past couple of weeks has transpired to the death of the RP and APAC communities as we know them. Now with Icykill making this thread I wouldn't be surprised if down the line the EU players would be next.

Doom scenarios are easy to make, people love them. But better late than never is true. There is still time to save this game I think. Sure, I also feel they should've done this sooner but we can only deal with the realities of today. Today we know that server merges are happening on Nov 8th.

I believe Icykill is not right because it is my opinion that the game will not be financially viable anymore by the time it would come to make one server. As someone already noted the west coast is more expensive than the east coast. It could be something as simple as that.

Their approval of finally moving through with server merges was a great way to reset the narrative but even they messed that up! I still firmly believe that one server should be necessary for the US since Harb's Satele Shan and Ebon Hawk's Star Forge are going to be competing for the same players, just as Shadowlands and JC have been doing.

I cannot judge the US situation but I also question the move to make 3 servers in the EU. A lot of French players have abandoned the French servers because apparently they are low pop and very toxic. So they've been coming to TRE already. I think that depending on the hardware they're getting that it may have been reduced to one US and one EU server, but then that also may not look so great to new players I guess.

I can't say I know a lot about how this game has been doing financially. I haven't been looking at EA's quarterly reports but I'd assume the CM is still raking in enough to keep this game profitable by EA standards.

I think there are clear signs that the CM hasn't been doing as well as in the past and that the game has lost a chunk of players due to 5.0 that SWTOR couldn't afford to lose. A lot more people are skeptical about the game and therefore hold back on spending. The changes to the CM seem to indicate that Bioware is trying new things. And if it wasn't broke why fix it, right?

I've honestly just about had it. I'm seriously questioning why I'm here when Harbinger is at its lowest it's ever been population-wise and the primetime window is the smallest it's ever been. Ranked PvP is a mess with throwers and there's so few players in queue now.

A fair comment. Only you can decide what makes sense for you. I still want this game to have a turn-around and be solid enough to last another 5 years. At the same time I cannot and will not ignore the realities that are there. There are population issues and the server merges will help. I really am very much curious to see how much of an effect the server merges will have on the population though. I'm not expecting too much from being merged with 2 near-dead servers but we'll see. It may also bring some people back but the one thing that Bioware doesn't seem to understand is how to keep people. They've been given suggestions but they haven't been very receptive to those ideas.

 

One of the best examples is when people asked for veteran rewards and instead they decided to give rewards for current subscribers at the time...which aren't veteran rewards. It's like saying we want a blue sky and they're like, ok we'll make it green for you. Of course, I encounter the same type of reasoning skills here on the forum, so it's certainly not unique to Bioware but it does make a person wonder.

[merovejec]

Always depends on the numbers. The fact that you have many ppl writing here they are from APAC, when you actually count it, it might be what? 500-800 players?

 

Question is whether you really helped the Harbinger population. This is the most frequent mistakes people do, they thing they are the majority or large portion, but they could be very wrong.

[Tsillah]

Always depends on the numbers. The fact that you have many ppl writing here they are from APAC, when you actually count it, it might be what? 500-800 players?

 

Question is whether you really helped the Harbinger population. This is the most frequent mistakes people do, they thing they are the majority or large portion, but they could be very wrong.

I think that there may be about 10-15 people here maximum, posting about their woes from the APAC area. One of them is more active than the others. But what that means for the larger picture is very much unclear.

 

It seems clear that the APAC players got the worst of the deal. How many people from there are actually playing and how many of them will quit over this, that's not so clear.

[SeCKSEgai]

I think that there may be about 10-15 people here maximum, posting about their woes from the APAC area. One of them is more active than the others. But what that means for the larger picture is very much unclear.

 

It seems clear that the APAC players got the worst of the deal. How many people from there are actually playing and how many of them will quit over this, that's not so clear.

 

While actual numbers are mere speculation - the bottom line is that APAC players weren't even given consideration in this unannounced server migration to the east coast. When the PTS feedback for 5.0 and their command system was largely negative, they completely disregarded the players. If not for the IP, this game would look like Wildstar with its one remaining server and nearly nonexistent populace.

 

There's a lot the customer base will endure - but there is a limit.

[omaan]

What doesn’t make sense to me is that the servers were placed on the east coast... it only makes sense if they plan on merging the EU server in the very near future (look out)

 

Here is my reasoning

 

Harbinger was the most populated and active server... some people from the east coast already played there for that reason

Harbinger was the defunct home of the APAC community and helped make Harbinger the most populated server

Even though the west coast had more servers... adding those altogether would have only given a similar amount of “active” players as the 3 merged west coast servers...

Players on the east coast who didn’t want to play on the west coast would still have had the option to play on the EU servers, which many already do...

Ping to the EU for those east coast players would have been better for east coast players in some situations than ping to the west coast or what the west coast players can actually get to the east coast now...

West coast players don’t have a second choice of destination servers like the east coast does... so they suffer worse from this move than east coast players would...

 

So logically it would have been better to put the servers on the west coast because -

A. You would have kept all those current APAC players and the ones who had and were going to resub because of the mergers.

B. You would have kept your most populated server heavy...

C. It would have impacted less players...

D. You would have kept more of your revenue stream...

E. Less disruption for the majority of the player base...

 

While none of that is great for the east coast players... it would have been the more logical decision... (sorry east coast people... this was an exercise in logic... not want)

At the same time you could have just made one of the servers a dedicated RP server and the other an all in one server.... you could have given people an option of which server to merge into...

 

Edit - as I pointed out at the beginning... the only logical reason I can see for putting them on the east coast is merging the EU into the east coast in the not to distant future... so guys in the EU... I hope you are prepared for that.

 

They wont merge eu servers with any of usa servers. Their locations are absolutely different, eu players wont be able to play there normally. Besides, they dont have such engine that will be able to carry all eu and usa servers on one server. What i think that you are just mad, and this madness have driven you into making pretty unlogical conclusions which are based mostly on emotions rather than logic

[Vodolebon]

They wont merge eu servers with any of usa servers. Their locations are absolutely different, eu players wont be able to play there normally.

 

What happens when APAC players don't have an Asia server? They play on a west US server.

This is not normal and the locations are totaly different

That could totaly happen to EU, althoug i think they would probably try 1 last EU server (FR/UK/GER) first.

 

Not saying that this is what they have in mind, but the idea isn't that far fetched.

If it happens, they'll probably hope they can cut Fr and Ger voice over.

[VirtualMorrigan]

They wont merge eu servers with any of usa servers. Their locations are absolutely different, eu players wont be able to play there normally. Besides, they dont have such engine that will be able to carry all eu and usa servers on one server. What i think that you are just mad, and this madness have driven you into making pretty unlogical conclusions which are based mostly on emotions rather than logic

 

I don't see why they wouldn't, if they think they can make enough profit with the US players to lose a couple of teh EU ones. They are used to people bending over backwards to keep playing, so it's logical that this will be taken into account. Sure, you lose some, but in the end, it's a business decision. EU servers are anything but untouchable,a nd assuming otherwise is just naive.

[Tsillah]

They wont merge eu servers with any of usa servers. Their locations are absolutely different, eu players wont be able to play there normally. Besides, they dont have such engine that will be able to carry all eu and usa servers on one server.

I don't think that you are right about this, however...

What i think that you are just mad, and this madness have driven you into making pretty unlogical conclusions which are based mostly on emotions rather than logic

I do have the same feeling about this.

[Tsillah]

So logically it would have been better to put the servers on the west coast because -

A. You would have kept all those current APAC players and the ones who had and were going to resub because of the mergers.

B. You would have kept your most populated server heavy...

C. It would have impacted less players...

D. You would have kept more of your revenue stream...

E. Less disruption for the majority of the player base...

A. Undoubtedly bad ping values in game will cause a number of APAC players to stop playing or keep them from coming back. However, it is unclear how significant this number is, so you can only use this as a moral premise and may not have bearing on the economical side of it.

B. Heavy is arbitrary. This is wholly dependent on the settings Bioware uses. So this also is not useful as a premise.

C. Again it is unclear how many and to what extent. If a few hundred players quit in APAC but a few thousand players come back in return in the US and EU then it would be a success for Bioware.

D. This is a big assumption. Clearly less players overall can be seen as less revenue but it seems most revenue these days is coming from the cartel market. Who spends most money there is not known to me, so I do not know if the so-called whales are affected much.

E. This is false as a premise. Clearly there is a disruption because of the server merge. There is extra maintenance and conquest is turned off. So all players are affected. That, however, is part of server merges and has nothing to do with location. I think I can safely state that East Coast + Europe are a majority. These people are not affected by the location of the servers. So also this is not a premise.

Edit - as I pointed out at the beginning... the only logical reason I can see for putting them on the east coast is merging the EU into the east coast in the not to distant future... so guys in the EU... I hope you are prepared for that.

Since your logic is based on false, limited or unclear premises as describe above, your conclusions can only be considered a lucky guess at best.

 

As for being prepared for it, I currently get 120ms in the East coast servers. That's playable for me, so I have little to worry about in that respect. My view is that the game shutting down is more likely than the game reducing to one server. But that's just my view.

[aerockyul]

It's funny seeing EU players acting like this couldn't or wouldn't happen to them. EA is so compassionate and would never make a business decision like that when a region becomes expendable, especially one that costs more than the NA region due to localization.

I hate what they've done to APAC players and I would hate it if they cut off the EU. It may not affect me personally (yet) but I completely empathize with them because if I was in their shoes I would be outraged if they made it nigh impossible to play my absolute favorite game because I'd been deemed expendable

[merovejec]

While actual numbers are mere speculation - the bottom line is that APAC players weren't even given consideration in this unannounced server migration to the east coast. When the PTS feedback for 5.0 and their command system was largely negative, they completely disregarded the players. If not for the IP, this game would look like Wildstar with its one remaining server and nearly nonexistent populace.

 

There's a lot the customer base will endure - but there is a limit.

 

True, one side of things is that the game will lose 100 ppl. The other side of things is how this was handled Cutting off people from the game without prior notice is a bit low. It probably also shows the bad state the game is in when it has to go through such measures

[casirabit]

While I feel bad for the players in Australia it is also sad to see them saying well close the Eastern and put it all Western. It is like the West is more important and you don't care if you lose the Eastern servers. This is one of the reasons I was against the server mergers at the beginning. As long as it is not affecting your server you don't care and as soon as it does you want to attack another server.

 

It shouldn't be west or east, it should be both but I already know from first hand experience most are not going to care and they want what they want and if they lose more players so be it.

[Talon_strikes]

While I feel bad for the players in Australia it is also sad to see them saying well close the Eastern and put it all Western. It is like the West is more important and you don't care if you lose the Eastern servers. This is one of the reasons I was against the server mergers at the beginning. As long as it is not affecting your server you don't care and as soon as it does you want to attack another server.

 

It shouldn't be west or east, it should be both but I already know from first hand experience most are not going to care and they want what they want and if they lose more players so be it.

Oh please. I was a huge proponent for server merges but no one whether pro-merge or anti-merge saw this coming. When BW announced they were finally coming everyone assumed one west coast, one east coast. No one, not even pro-mergers, wants this.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Aeneas_Falco]

The East Coast move makes more sense for a number of reasons.

 

1. Virginia is almost certainly cheaper than California. Bioware is a business.

2. This game's population is in decline and long term will continue to decline, as it is now an old game. It won't last forever and at some point another merger may happen. It makes more sense to merge Europe in the East Coast than it does to move Europe into the West Coast.

3. There are a lot more East Coast players than West. Harbinger is the most populated server but only because most West Coast players were concentrated on a single server already. East Coast players are spread a bit more evenly between Ebon Hawk, Jedi Covenant, and Shadowlands, and EH alone is nearly as populated as Harbinger. Moving servers East likely inconveniences less people than had they moved servers West.

 

Admittedly, this sucks for people who once had a decent playing experience on Harbinger and now are faced with severe lag. It's obviously not an ideal situation, but if you're going to have all your NA servers concentrated in a single location East Coast is a better choice than West.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco