Eli_Porter Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) Without the cap in place, the most successful conquest guilds will get exponentially larger making it much more difficult for smaller guilds to catch up. The big guilds will also be forced to go into a recruitment war like never before, which could potentially ruin the community aspect those guilds have built up. The alt-guild conquest domination argument is solid, but not solid enough to warrant removing the cap or setting it anywhere near close to 10k. I think 1.5k or 2k may be more than enough to give some breathing room for old guilds with very little spots, without favoring quantity recruiting over quality organization for conquest. Edited November 5, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txornisx Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 The big guilds will also be forced to go into a recruitment war like never before Why so? The biggest guilds known to me, both Imp and Rep side are not recruiting at all, there's no need in that. Why something should change so drastically after the merge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) Why so? The biggest guilds known to me, both Imp and Rep side are not recruiting at all, there's no need in that. Why something should change so drastically after the merge? There's no need in that now. But with OP's suggestion of removing the member cap or increasing it to 10k, it would be necessary to keep up with recruitment in order to stay relevant for conquest. Edited November 5, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txornisx Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Err, not all the big/biggest guilds are interested in the conquest. More than that, conquest itself isn't so large part of the game it should impact the guild member cap question. Basically for now the conquest is the main counterargument against cap removal, it shouldn't even be like that! But well, from my own experience - I was a member of a quite small guild when conquests just arrived. It was a good planning we did and we never lost a single conquest we were aiming to win. 10-15 persons participating in the conquest on a regular basis, maybe 20 more reaching weekly score for achievement. Of course we didn't go for crazy targets like Yavin/Rishi - BUT if it wasn't once per year then but once per month after invented - like Death Mark for example, it would be possible to win in out turn as well. Conquesting was hard task for us back then for sure but it was really fun and it was totally doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 Without the cap in place, the most successful conquest guilds will get exponentially larger making it much more difficult for smaller guilds to catch up. The big guilds will also be forced to go into a recruitment war like never before, which could potentially ruin the community aspect those guilds have built up. The alt-guild conquest domination argument is solid, but not solid enough to warrant removing the cap or setting it anywhere near close to 10k. I think 1.5k or 2k may be more than enough to give some breathing room for old guilds with very little spots, without favoring quantity recruiting over quality organization for conquest. Not every guild is the same. My guild has not posted a recruitment message in over 3 years, we're not planning on doing so anytime soon and I'm sure we are not alone in that. You talk about other guilds getting into a recruitment war that could damage their own communities but if that is really the case then that is their own doing. Currently guilds post in fleet chat " Join Us [iNSERT GUILD FACTS & WITTY COMMENT]", how will that change if the cap is increased? Could you share some details on the recruitment war you envision? Increasing the character limit does not increase the number of active players on the server. If people wanted to join the big guilds then they will already be in there. The character limit being increased is not a selling point that will draw new members. It is disappointing that people would wish to prevent a proper increase/removal of the character limit because of conquest. The number of character slots in a guild and how that guild is managed by its leaders should not be restricted because of this one part of the game. How is losing in conquest to a guild with a 10,000 character limit any different than losing to a guild with a 1000 limit? Conquest is just one part of the game, it's a title and an achievement. One way to handle it would be to give the title & achievement to the top 3 guilds on each planet. There should still be a special prize for #1 such as a 1.5x boost to the guild XP bonus for the following week or even an additional boost to CXP. Either way they should fix the orange "XYZ owns this planet" thing to vanish properly A tiny increase like 1.5 or 2k will hardly help at all. A big section of this game revolves around people having many alts, they give us tokens to boost to 65 and soon to 70, they increase the character limit to 100/152, they have events like DvL which encourage people to make more alts, they have XP boost events to level faster. All of this to encourage people to play alts but they do not give us the room in our guilds to house them all. 10k is the minimum number it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNV Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 A tiny increase like 1.5 or 2k will hardly help at all. A big section of this game revolves around people having many alts, they give us tokens to boost to 65 and soon to 70, they increase the character limit to 100/152, they have events like DvL which encourage people to make more alts, they have XP boost events to level faster. All of this to encourage people to play alts but they do not give us the room in our guilds to house them all. 10k is the minimum number it should be. I disagree, strongly. IMO, they need to change how guild membership works in general. Guild membership should be account-wide, both factions. You should be able to be a member of multiple guilds (pick the one your conquest points go to this week). Guild chat needs to be cross-faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) Could you explain your account-wide membership idea in more detail please? Cross faction guild chat would be awesome. Edited November 5, 2017 by UlaVii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssuspriina Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) having the cap does not alter anything with conquest you just move characters into guild earn points then drop em out again once they earned what points they need to. The guild still gets its points just the character misses out on the guild reward at the end of conquest. Edited November 5, 2017 by Ssuspriina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssuspriina Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 If they wanted to make conquest fair for big & small guild it would be quite easy. Each week we invade 5 planets Planet 1 is for guilds with less than 100 people Planet 2 500 Planet 3 1000 Planet 4 free for all, anyone can join Planet 5 free for all, anyone can join Just rotate the planets as they do now with a little extra mechanic, no need to limit guild sizes at all then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 (edited) Not every guild is the same. My guild has not posted a recruitment message in over 3 years, we're not planning on doing so anytime soon and I'm sure we are not alone in that. You talk about other guilds getting into a recruitment war that could damage their own communities but if that is really the case then that is their own doing. Currently guilds post in fleet chat " Join Us [iNSERT GUILD FACTS & WITTY COMMENT]", how will that change if the cap is increased? Could you share some details on the recruitment war you envision? How will that change? You'd see recruiters a lot more active and on more planets. It's not the guild's fault if the game forces them to recruit people in order to remain conquest relevant. Increasing the character limit does not increase the number of active players on the server. If people wanted to join the big guilds then they will already be in there. The character limit being increased is not a selling point that will draw new members. Maybe it's because people don't have to join the biggest guilds in order to have a chance at conquest. Maybe it's because the biggest guilds have a cap so they can't just coast through every conquest without putting in an effort. It is disappointing that people would wish to prevent a proper increase/removal of the character limit because of conquest. The number of character slots in a guild and how that guild is managed by its leaders should not be restricted because of this one part of the game. How is losing in conquest to a guild with a 10,000 character limit any different than losing to a guild with a 1000 limit? Yes it is disappointing that guild competition is heavily tied to the number of members and membership is based on chars and not legacy. But there are ways to address that. Conquest is just one part of the game, it's a title and an achievement. One way to handle it would be to give the title & achievement to the top 3 guilds on each planet. There should still be a special prize for #1 such as a 1.5x boost to the guild XP bonus for the following week or even an additional boost to CXP. Either way they should fix the orange "XYZ owns this planet" thing to vanish properly Sure, that could help. But the prestige of being #1 shouldn't be reserved for the guilds who aggressively recruit members. A tiny increase like 1.5 or 2k will hardly help at all. A big section of this game revolves around people having many alts, they give us tokens to boost to 65 and soon to 70, they increase the character limit to 100/152, they have events like DvL which encourage people to make more alts, they have XP boost events to level faster. All of this to encourage people to play alts but they do not give us the room in our guilds to house them all. 10k is the minimum number it should be. Yes, and that's good reasoning behind increasing the cap or making membership count based on legacy. But the conquest issues have to be dealt with first before a dramatic cap increase is implemented. Edited November 5, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txornisx Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Just imagine there's no conquest in the game At the moment I see that all the counterarguments are about the conquest and the conquest alone. But the member cap problem is so much bigger than that, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 How will that change? You'd see recruiters a lot more active and on more planets. Guilds already advertise on both fleet and planets. If they increase their spam then people will put them on ignore Maybe it's because people don't have to join the biggest guilds in order to have a chance at conquest. Maybe it's because the biggest guilds have a cap so they can't just coast through every conquest without putting in an effort. Having a large active guild does take effort. Yes, and that's good reasoning behind increasing the cap or making membership count based on legacy. But the conquest issues have to be dealt with first before a dramatic cap increase is implemented. You seem very conquest focused, try not to worry about it so much. They already said they plan to overhaul the conquest system at the start of 2018. Increasing the cap is about guild members being able to have their alts in one guild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txornisx Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Increasing the cap is about guild members being able to have their alts in one guild. Exactly this. Out of my ~20-25 more or less active Imperial characters I am keeping only two in the guild of my choice. I can't morally afford myself to bring in other characters seeing that the guild is almost always 10-20 spots away from the cap. And I guess I have less alts than other dedicated players. P.S. Other my characters are guildless, I don't like to change and swap guilds, I'm perfectly happy with my primary one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenaki Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 If cap is removed big guilds will get bigger so small/medium guilds will not have a chance to win conquest - If you are GM or even simple member of a small/medium guild there is nothing to stop you from trying to make it big. It doesn't require so much recruiting spam as organization and hard work from the motivated ppl to attract ppl. And no conquest is not the only way to attract ppl to your guild. - If you are not willing to do that or if you don't like big crowds and you prefer to stay in a small guild but still have a chance in conquest then its not "x big fancy guild's" fault, and at that point it doesn't matter if the cap is 1000 or 1million. - The conquest mechanics indeed favor populated guilds but that's again not guild's fault, so saying don't remove the cap (which is something that affects primarily the big guilds) because I am losing at conquest it's like punishing a group of ppl for something that it's not their fault and it's not gonna solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNV Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Could you explain your account-wide membership idea in more detail please? Cross faction guild chat would be awesome. Sure. Say you have 5 Imperial toons and 6 Republic on your account. You join the guild "Free Cookies". Your account joins the guild, so that's what shows up in the guild list (legacy name or whatever). Every character in your account has access to the guild. Now, for those who want to play in more than one guild, you also allow the account to be a member of more than one guild. So, you can also join the guild "1$ cookies." Now your character "Evil Sith" can be set to have conquest go to "Free Cookies" and your character "Trooper Joe" can chose to have conquest points go to "$1 cookies." The guild list won't ever show the individual characters, just the account. So, now you don't have to worry about someone wanting all 15 alts in one guild. No matter how many they have, they only take up one space. If you want to see it in action, go look at ESO (who doesn't do conquest, but does do PVP for control of area objectives and so on.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 Ah yeah that's an interesting idea. I took your advice and read up on it some more. Found this about GW2's version which explains it in further detail: Guild membership is administered at the account level, and an account can hold membership in up to 5 guilds. ... While guild membership is at the account level, guild representation is at the character level, providing access to the guild bank and any active guild upgrades. To represent a guild, open the guild panel. On the sidebar, the "Account Guilds" tab list of all guilds your account is a member of. Select one and then click the "Represent" checkbox to the left of the guild name. You must do this individually for each character, since joining a guild does not automatically require you to represent it. Similarly, newly-created characters will not represent a guild until you select one for them. To end a character's representation of a guild, uncheck the checkbox. The character will still belong to the guild, but not be able to use any of that guild's perks. It is a nice system but I'd be quite worried if BW said they were going to change guilds this much, for one it requires updating the guild panel and we know how that goes Seriously though, I do like the account wide membership suggestion but I still believe increasing the cap now is the way to solve the immediate problem. Then they can tinker with the guild character/account system in 2018 when they decide to do the "We Love Guilds" patch (please do a patch like that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czejss Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterceil Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Quoting myself: "Underdog guilds" should, mechanically and lore-wise, not have much of a chance at winning. You're literally conquering a planet, after all. Who should have a better chance at this - 500 well-organised people, or 12 scrappy 'underdogs'? Remembering, of course, that we're all players here, so it's quite a bit different than 4-8 players taking on hundreds of NPCs in Uprisings, Flashpoints, or Operations. Conquest is specifically a big-guild activity, and it is the only big-guild activity, and I see nothing wrong with that. And tbh, big guilds are not impossible to beat. An eight-player guild with 10 alts apiece and 150% SH bonuses can get a lockout on the daily GF operation and farm the sht out of it every day for six days and put up millions of points. If you're not willing to put in that kind of effort, either grow your guild, or recognise that maybe you simply don't deserve to have a planet to call your own. TL;DR: Conquest is not supposed to be fair. There are many activities your tiny little close-friends-only guild can do. If you're not willing to put in the work for Conquest - either in recruiting or grinding points within a small guild (which is viable) - you don't deserve to win. Don't rail against busy guilds' need to expand because you're too selfish and/or lazy to compete with them in literally conquering a planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Quoting myself: TL;DR: Conquest is not supposed to be fair. There are many activities your tiny little close-friends-only guild can do. If you're not willing to put in the work for Conquest - either in recruiting or grinding points within a small guild (which is viable) - you don't deserve to win. Don't rail against busy guilds' need to expand because you're too selfish and/or lazy to compete with them in literally conquering a planet. It's not supposed to be fair, but the caps are in place to keep one guild from surging way ahead of the others through sheer member count. This isn't just about helping the small guilds compete, but also to prevent one guild from dominating everyone else without having to put in the effort of doing group activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 7, 2017 Author Share Posted November 7, 2017 Eli_Porter you seem to be the most conquest orientated person in this thread. We all get that you want the titles and achievements but you miss the point of conquest which is that ALL interested guilds compete to see who can earn the most points. Every guild has the same potential for growth, the only people limiting that are the leaders and guild members who decide to remain as small communities. There is nothing wrong with that, I know several people that prefer to stay in small guilds for various reasons. If you make that decision then you should not be upset that you have trouble competing in an event that favors large active guilds. None of us know what changes they will bring to the conquest system in their 2018 overhaul so maybe they will do something to help smaller guilds win. It's hard to imagine how besides having different conquest tiers based on guild size. Time will tell but if you want them to help you then make your own thread detailing your ideas of how they can help smaller guilds with their conquest or just about what you envisage as improvements to conquest overall. As has been said many times in this thread; the cap size change is about letting people have all their alts in one guild to make it easier for them to play with their friends and to reduce the hassle of the kick/invite cycle to both members and officers to free up slots. Just because guilds can have 10k+ active members does not mean that 10k+ active players suddenly appear in each guild, most of the space will be alts. As for your "recruitment war", I could not see tens of thousands of players switching guilds as you suggest. There will be some reshuffling after the merge as people explore their options but once they find a guild they are happy with that provides for their needs then they will have no reason to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Eli_Porter you seem to be the most conquest orientated person in this thread. We all get that you want the titles and achievements but you miss the point of conquest which is that ALL interested guilds compete to see who can earn the most points. Every guild has the same potential for growth, the only people limiting that are the leaders and guild members who decide to remain as small communities. There is nothing wrong with that, I know several people that prefer to stay in small guilds for various reasons. If you make that decision then you should not be upset that you have trouble competing in an event that favors large active guilds. I'm not in a small guild. I'm in one of the biggest pubside guilds and I run most of our conquest activities. I wouldn't be running nearly as many operation, world boss and heroic runs with my guild if there was no obtainable goal to work towards. And that is just what increasing the cap to 10k or unlimited would do. It would make my goal increasingly unobtainable because the bigger guilds will start getting an exponentially larger amount of members due to their success and recruitment rate, until we couldn't catch up no matter how many last boss runs i organize. The end result is less guildies playing together, both on the largest guilds and on the smaller guilds, because conquest will no longer be about who plays together the most but rather about who has the most members that run dailies and weeklies on their own accord. None of us know what changes they will bring to the conquest system in their 2018 overhaul so maybe they will do something to help smaller guilds win. It's hard to imagine how besides having different conquest tiers based on guild size. Time will tell but if you want them to help you then make your own thread detailing your ideas of how they can help smaller guilds with their conquest or just about what you envisage as improvements to conquest overall. As has been said many times in this thread; the cap size change is about letting people have all their alts in one guild to make it easier for them to play with their friends and to reduce the hassle of the kick/invite cycle to both members and officers to free up slots. Just because guilds can have 10k+ active members does not mean that 10k+ active players suddenly appear in each guild, most of the space will be alts. As for your "recruitment war", I could not see tens of thousands of players switching guilds as you suggest. There will be some reshuffling after the merge as people explore their options but once they find a guild they are happy with that provides for their needs then they will have no reason to leave. Basing a suggestion on unknown future conquest changes is pointless. I get that there's a problem with alts, and I get that you want an immediate solution so you can get more alts in your guild. But I cannot support increasing the cap to 10k or making it unlimited due to the negative repercussions it would have on conquest (and subsequently, guild activity and cohesion). The only solution I can fully get behind is making membership count based on legacy rather than characters. Edited November 7, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falensawino Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 @OP @Everyone A better suggestion would be to ask Bioware to fold all alts as one character/legacy This would alleviate the need to occupy multiple guild slots by the same player using one account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 7, 2017 Author Share Posted November 7, 2017 I'm not in a small guild. I'm in one of the biggest pubside guilds and I run most of our conquest activities. I wouldn't be running nearly as many operation, world boss and heroic runs with my guild if there was no obtainable goal to work towards. And that is just what increasing the cap to 10k or unlimited would do. So the rest of us that care more about the needs of our members than a row on a scoreboard should be denied because you fear your guild will collapse if your chances of winning conquest are reduced The end result is less guildies playing together, both on the largest guilds and on the smaller guilds, because conquest will no longer be about who plays together the most but rather about who has the most members that run dailies and weeklies on their own accord. Ugh conquest conquest conquest. The number of guilds that frequently take the #1 spots is quite low. There are a lot more guilds that don't take the top conquest spots and they have not collapsed. They have active communities that enjoy playing together. Conquest is just an encouragement to do certain activities, it should not be the glue that holds a guild together. Basing a suggestion on unknown future conquest changes is pointless. I get that there's a problem with alts, and I get that you want an immediate solution so you can get more alts in your guild. But I cannot support increasing the cap to 10k or making it unlimited due to the negative repercussions it would have on conquest (and subsequently, guild activity and cohesion). The only solution I can fully get behind is making membership count based on legacy rather than characters. The rest of the guilds should not be punished because a few have chosen to base their entire guild around conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlaVii Posted November 14, 2017 Author Share Posted November 14, 2017 #uniteourcharacters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 @OP @Everyone A better suggestion would be to ask Bioware to fold all alts as one character/legacy This would alleviate the need to occupy multiple guild slots by the same player using one account Yea, this would be the best suggestion, still keep a bit of a cap but allowing unlimited characters from the same legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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