Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

[Kingsbount]

Lmfao, the "real experience" showed that a nerf was needed for the majority of players.

 

Im sorry but could you please point out where exactly a "majority of players" asked for nerfing assassin?

[Hoggan]

You want to kill that class seriously

What's next step?? (don't forget suppression of phase walk)

I think some people will leave the game after that

[olagatonjedi]

Im sorry but could you please point out where exactly a "majority of players" asked for nerfing assassin?

Re-read my post. You made a mistake.

[SeCKSEgai]

Lmfao, the "real experience" showed that a nerf was needed for the majority of players. You are just trying to invalidate their data by giving your opinion, amd personal experience. Problem is your sample size of 1 has a much larger margin of error than their sample size of thousands.

 

What data? They can't have a sample size of thousands because frankly there aren't thousands of players anymore, let alone deception/infiltration players.

 

Essentially you are defending the dev team for some misplaced sense of loyalty when actual players of the class spec are pretty unanimous in agreement that they weren't performing excessively well - unlike say merc/trooper which practically became a mage tank with one utility.

 

As one of the people actually invited to beta all the 5.0 changes I can tell you that the private message boards were full of people detesting the 5.0 rng galactic command system - but they went with it anyway and it's clear population numbers have suffered - so much so that even the most populated server that is harby has seen significant decline, let alone the lesser servers.

 

Even in full 248s fully augged I've never felt particularly god-like or even remotely OP. There are so few HMs going on harby that the pretty gold gear is a moot point since there's so little group content going on now, especially pub side.

 

But hey, keep vouching for your beloved devs - based on the track record enough people will be alienated that you won't have people left to bother to complain.

[BraverDre]

This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k Edited October 3, 2017 by BraverDre

[nyrkverse]

According to the livestream, the shiny new augments available from 5.6 are not factored in their "target dps" and it's thus very possible we (dps in general, not just deception) will once again go over the target which means most of the "balancing" done so far will be at least somewhat invalidated. Let this sink in for a moment. That's 3 patches (5.4, 5.5 and 5.6) of class changes, 3 to 5 months of dev work with all the negative associations nerfs always bring. Mhm...

 

Although, I guess, it's still not as bad as an entirely new tier of gear after all around nerfs.

 

Anyway, can I have a + 5.00 % dmg to Ball lighting augment? We'll leave that 0.15 % in, as it sounds important

[olagatonjedi]

According to the livestream, the shiny new augments available from 5.6 are not factored in their "target dps" and it's thus very possible we (dps in general, not just deception) will once again go over the target which means most of the "balancing" done so far will be at least somewhat invalidated. Let this sink in for a moment. That's 3 patches (5.4, 5.5 and 5.6) of class changes, 3 to 5 months of dev work with all the negative associations nerfs always bring. Mhm...

 

Although, I guess, it's still not as bad as an entirely new tier of gear after all around nerfs.

 

Anyway, can I have a + 5.00 % dmg to Ball lighting augment? We'll leave that 0.15 % in, as it sounds important

Except that the balance changes were made to affect the class average, not end game players who may actually acquire/benefit from the new augments. From what it sounds like, the new augments will be difficult to acquire, and likely wont affect the target average of each class.

[Armagius]

I took the time to test the proposed changes and their impact. My findings are as follows:

 

Summary

The proposed changes take the uniqueness of the Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow classes away to a major extent. Furthermore the dps reduction impact is huge (or alternatively takes away the classes uniqueness) - apparently a lot more than Bioware expected. In detail:

 

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow

Both classes shine in three areas:

1. Stealth
   
2. Melee Burst Damage
   
3. Melee Execution Damage
   

 

For PvE we got the following roles:

• Spot DD
  
• Off Tank
  
• Stealth Mez
  
• Stealth Rez
  

 

For PvP we got the following roles:

• Defense of captured points
  
• 1 versus 1
  
• Execution of targets (have them dead before the pesky heal drops in)
  
• Take enemy healers out of the game
  

 

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow in their roles in PvE

Overall the strength of their class leads to issues in their roles. With their high burst both classes can easily receive aggro from boss monsters, while the execution of a high dmage output is difficult and demands a lot of knowledge, positioning and extremely fast reaction (to maintain the dps output). All this, while the dps output is RANDOM. With a lot of luck both classes can achieve around 15K dps in the first 20 seconds. Without luck they achieve around 11K dps in the first 20 seconds. This drops down to app. 9.3K dps after the burst phase until the execution phase starts (30% health or less of the target), where it can rise again around 10.3 K dps.

 

Bottom line: the shorter the length of a boss fight, the more both classe shine (shorter middle phase). The longer a boss fight and both classes start to perform increasingly worse (in dps output). Or in other words, chance plays a lesser role since the the amount of random events even out on the long run.

 

All this is also reflected in parsely leaderboards, where both classes shine on 500K and 1.5Mill dummies, but udnerperform at 4Mill dummies.

 

As a matter of fact both classes are well within the dps range and even underperfom compared to e.g. Marauders in Melee (300+ dps less).

 

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow in PvP

In PvP it is up to the player to let the classes shine. Being in the midth of an even Melee battle usually kills both classes quite fast - despite their defs. It is crucial to avoid long Melee battles toe to toe with differing opponents of similar skill.

 

A player aiming for first strikes (deliver their burst damage) and then switch to targets on low health (execution damage) - such a player sure lets both classes shine. Also in single point defenses in 1vs1 and even 1vs2 situations both can shine: CC abilities + burst and execution damage.

 

Impact of proposed changes of Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow

The suggested changes do several things at once:

1. Removal of high burst damage
   
2. Removal of high execution phase damage
   
3. Keeping the RANDOMness of both classes
   

 

The changes to Discharge basically remove the burst damage opener. Yet there are still alternatives with Maul, which in return break power management of both classes for long term dps output.

 

The reduction of execution phase damage from 5% to 3% coupled with the other changes basically brings these classes to a similar level like other classes, which also offer exection phase damage increases.

 

Overall

So these changes basically take away the uniqueness of both classes. Yet first results suggest, that a high damage output is still possible (yet even more random but without burst and execution phase advantages) - making these changes void. This in return requires them to use Force Cloak on cooldown (which we already did to maintain high dps) and maybe even respecc to increase power regeneration. As a result these changes also take away the uniqueness as stealthers in PvP.

 

So a possible result of these changes is that both classes are basically the inferior version of a Annihilation Marauder or Sentinel Watchman - except stealth is slightly better.

 

Or in other words: thee changes take a unique class out of game - a change is not really needed.

 

Alternative changes for Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow

Apart from above reasoning, there is a understanding why someone woudl assume both classes "overperformers" (which is actually due to RANDOMness). As such a proposed different change would be:

1. Remove chance based procs and set their respective chance to 100% (always procs)
   
2. Reduce damage of Maul (as well as the Maul based proc), while increasing the position based damage (from behind).
   

 

These two changes would decrease the dps output overall (snce the high dps parses are actually due to well-placed Mauls in a rotation), lead to a more consistent damage output, while keeping the classes uniqueness and even strenghtening the "Assassin style".

Edited October 7, 2017 by Armagius

[casigarian]

This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k

 

If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).

Edited October 9, 2017 by casigarian

[supertimtaf]

This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k

 

Except that it won't do this, you can expect a dps loss of about 800, which is huge for what the class has to offer (basically, the raid utility of a Deception Sin is just its raw damage, no heals, no raid buff or protection). You can expect a dps around 9k-9k3 with those nerfs.

Until we get some sort of raid compensation (I don't mean sorc raid buff, something new), Deception won't be viable for High-End content due to it's lack of interest for groups/lack of burst in PvP.

Edited October 9, 2017 by supertimtaf

[casigarian]

Actually Super with the averages currently on Star Parse 9438 on a 2.5 mil dummy selecting only personal bests would put the average DPS around 8600 placing Deception on par with Marksman (8685) and Lightning Sorcs (8706) currently.

[olagatonjedi]

If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).

1). Public parses are only a fraction of information regarding class dps.

 

2). They arent balancing for end game.

 

Both of these were made very clear in the dev statement regarding class balance, iirc.

Edited October 9, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[supertimtaf]

1). Public parses are only a fraction of information regarding class dps.

 

2). They arent balancing for end game.

 

What you are saying is basically :

Parse, even average, are not showing what a player can do, so in your opinions, the majority of peoples who don't use parse are better than those who use it ? Or is it the contrary ? Parsely isn't representative of the total population of this game, still it shows what either good players and average can achieve with a certain spec, even if it doesn't show everyone it shows what is possible. Saying that those numbers don't mean anything just means that you don't want to admit that this is one way to judge what a class can do.

 

Actually Super with the averages currently on Star Parse 9438 on a 2.5 mil dummy selecting only personal bests would put the average DPS around 8600 placing Deception on par with Marksman (8685) and Lightning Sorcs (8706) currently.

 

I didn't see it that way honestly :/ My calculations where only based on personal best Parses, because the calculations are easier to make on those. We weren't that far, excellent players will be able to reach just 9k dps on a dummy, average will reach 8k6 dps... Still not enough for actual content though :/

[BraverDre]

If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).

 

Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed. Its dps should be on the same line with sustained rDPS classes like madness, engi, IO. I look at the best parses. I don't even consider looking at parses of people who can't do 9k. Average dps stats can be cheated by parsing very low with ur alts so... no point to look at average numbers at all unless u are kinda new to the game and u wanna get a basic info from parsley.

http://parsely.io/parser/view/318879/0

Edited October 10, 2017 by BraverDre

[nyrkverse]

 

2). They arent balancing for end game.

 

 

Yes, of course, deception assassins were killing CZ-198 mobs too quickly, we can't have that... Of course they're balancing for endgame - PvE and PvP, deception is clearly a victim of the former in this instance - that's the only place where TTK matters.

[supertimtaf]

Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed. Its dps should be on the same line with sustained rDPS classes like madness, engi, IO. I look at the best parses. I don't even consider looking at parses of people who can't do 9k. Average dps stats can be cheated by parsing very low with ur alts so... no point to look at average numbers at all unless u are kinda new to the game and u wanna get a basic info from parsley.

http://parsely.io/parser/view/318879/0

 

The parse you linked is good, but not at all representative of what the class usually do. I find it very strange that he had to use saber strike and still reach 10k7 dps, saber strike would mean he messed up his rotation somewhere. But looking at the individual crit, it's no wonder... 75% crit on assassinate ? Srsly ? :') and I'm not even talking about the apm

You don't balance a class around what the «luckiest» guy can do with it -being carefull with the «lucky» part, edited Parse aren't that uncommon-

FYI, Deception still relies on RnG to work. You could very well have the luckiest crit you can have, it doesn't mean surging charge will follow. The same apply on the contrary, surging charge proc doesn't mean your crit will follow too. Seeing those Parse along with average Parse is cool, because it shows what the dps range of the class is (because no, peoples don't parse sh*t just to imbalance the statistics). When you look at deception, the range is quite important (especially on Ops Boss), to give you an idea of what the class dps range is, because you cannot speak of target dps for this spec, the exact term being «dps range». The difference between a Carnage Mara and a Deception Sin is that it doesn't require skill to be lucky. Fix the randomness of the class then yeah, it is OP when you compare it to others, with its randomness you cannot justify a nerf because a specific scenario out of hundreds showed that it could overperform, especially if you made the class that way.

[olagatonjedi]

Yes, of course, deception assassins were killing CZ-198 mobs too quickly, we can't have that... Of course they're balancing for endgame - PvE and PvP, deception is clearly a victim of the former in this instance - that's the only place where TTK matters.

You must not have read the dev posts.

[olagatonjedi]

What you are saying is basically :

Parse, even average, are not showing what a player can do, so in your opinions, the majority of peoples who don't use parse are better than those who use it ? Or is it the contrary ? Parsely isn't representative of the total population of this game, still it shows what either good players and average can achieve with a certain spec, even if it doesn't show everyone it shows what is possible. Saying that those numbers don't mean anything just means that you don't want to admit that this is one way to judge what a class can do.

I'm saying people using starparse and parsely for their argument are making an argument with incomplete data. For example, I parse every time I log in, but I don't upload my log files. Multiply that by thousands of people who play the game, but either don't parse or don't upload their parses, and it's easy to see where the "incomplete data" comes from. I certainly believe that there are players who parse higher and lower than the public parses on those sites. Just because some people like posting their numbers doesn't mean everyone does. Parsely gives a very small sample size of what the class is capable of, but again, it doesn't given the full spectrum of data, so it's not as reliable as people are claiming. I would trust the data of a company who has 100% of the parsing data (and can likely break it down by skill, class, level, gear rating, etc.) over a random collection of a few individually picked parses (remember, not everyone posts every parse they do either, even the people who post top-score parses).

 

BW has internal metrics that are showing that the classes that are getting nerfed are overperforming, regardless of how many times people come to the forums, using public parses, and state the opposite. And again, BW has stated that they are balancing for the AVERAGE DPS/HPS, which means that more than 1/2 of the players who play each class, regardless of skill, are dpsing/hpsing at a much higher rate than intended (on multiple classes). So while the top 5% of public parses may be either overperforming or underperforming, it doesn't matter - the numbers show the classes themselves, from 1-70, newbie to endgame are overperforming.

[Darrahsrhaw]

If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).

i can do 10 parses on deception each will be higher than 9.7 but we all know how bad u are i think even during arsenal reign u were doing like 9k. even after nerf mercs are good dps for nightmare progression same will be with assassins

Edited October 10, 2017 by Darrahsrhaw

[Darrahsrhaw]

The parse you linked is good, but not at all representative of what the class usually do. I find it very strange that he had to use saber strike and still reach 10k7 dps, saber strike would mean he messed up his rotation somewhere. But looking at the individual crit, it's no wonder... 75% crit on assassinate ? Srsly ? :') and I'm not even talking about the apm

You don't balance a class around what the «luckiest» guy can do with it -being carefull with the «lucky» part, edited Parse aren't that uncommon-

FYI, Deception still relies on RnG to work. You could very well have the luckiest crit you can have, it doesn't mean surging charge will follow. The same apply on the contrary, surging charge proc doesn't mean your crit will follow too. Seeing those Parse along with average Parse is cool, because it shows what the dps range of the class is (because no, peoples don't parse sh*t just to imbalance the statistics). When you look at deception, the range is quite important (especially on Ops Boss), to give you an idea of what the class dps range is, because you cannot speak of target dps for this spec, the exact term being «dps range». The difference between a Carnage Mara and a Deception Sin is that it doesn't require skill to be lucky. Fix the randomness of the class then yeah, it is OP when you compare it to others, with its randomness you cannot justify a nerf because a specific scenario out of hundreds showed that it could overperform, especially if you made the class that way.

but i dont see 10.7k madness....

[supertimtaf]

but i dont see 10.7k madness....

 

Yeah, and that's a problem too, Madness underperforming isn't something new, sadly.

 

i can do 10 parses on deception each will be higher than 9.7 but we all know how bad u are i think even during arsenal reign u were doing like 9k. even after nerf mercs are good dps for nightmare progression same will be with assassins

 

Still waiting to see your parses This isn't a contest of "look, I did it so you must suck". If you're basing your judgment by how well you and only you pretend to perform, then I don't see the point of trying to have a discussion with you.

 

I'm saying people using starparse and parsely for their argument are making an argument with incomplete data. For example, I parse every time I log in, but I don't upload my log files. Multiply that by thousands of people who play the game, but either don't parse or don't upload their parses, and it's easy to see where the "incomplete data" comes from. I certainly believe that there are players who parse higher and lower than the public parses on those sites. Just because some people like posting their numbers doesn't mean everyone does. Parsely gives a very small sample size of what the class is capable of, but again, it doesn't given the full spectrum of data, so it's not as reliable as people are claiming. I would trust the data of a company who has 100% of the parsing data (and can likely break it down by skill, class, level, gear rating, etc.) over a random collection of a few individually picked parses (remember, not everyone posts every parse they do either, even the people who post top-score parses).

 

BW has internal metrics that are showing that the classes that are getting nerfed are overperforming, regardless of how many times people come to the forums, using public parses, and state the opposite. And again, BW has stated that they are balancing for the AVERAGE DPS/HPS, which means that more than 1/2 of the players who play each class, regardless of skill, are dpsing/hpsing at a much higher rate than intended (on multiple classes). So while the top 5% of public parses may be either overperforming or underperforming, it doesn't matter - the numbers show the classes themselves, from 1-70, newbie to endgame are overperforming.

 

Just a quick info, there is actually a nice thing with StarParse, it's that it uploads recorded Parse automatically (I believe it's when you enable the "Raid" option). I think it could be usefull for you to see those as well :

 

How many character of each class is played per week (with StarParse enabled, ofc).

DPS/HPS/DtPS ratings, you can also adapt for the type of content/boss you want.

If you prefer there is also Raid Challenges, but they mainly are about HM and NiM content, an area where not everybody play, therefore I don't see these metrics as "average".

 

Still, your sample size jump from (for Shadow/Sin) 3 or 4 player per week to around a hundred per week, I completely agree, it's not much, but it's still a bigger representation than what peoples show on Parsely (This is the main difference between Parsely and StarParse. Parsely is a LeaderBoard, therefore peoples try to upload their best score, where StarParse is just there for the metrics on actual content, I still trust StarParse more than Parsely, even if the sample size stay little).

 

The point where I disagree with you is when you're saying that nearly half of the players are overperforming in terms of dps, and it is where StarParse can show you that -on its playerbase- (raiders, essentially) most of the shadow/sin players aren't "overperforming" in actual content. And, we're arriving on the "difficult" topic, this is where the major flaw of this system is shown. Just compare the dps shown on Parsely (fight against a dummy, static, no mechanics or defensive) and the dps shown on StarParse (actual boss fight with mechanics and damage), you'll see that there is a huge difference between those two data, because it's not the same content.

 

The flaw being that BW balance around theorical "target dummy", not actual content. Scoundrel dps have been nerfed for dummy parsing, indeed, because it was overperforming, you can see this on Parsely. Still, when you look at StarParse, on dps rating, you'll see that Scoundrel is still ahead in terms of dps, on a sample size of 220k character (which is more than the ten you see on Parsely). The problem I have with the way those nerfs are handled is not that they are nerfing an overperforming spec, it's more that the way those nerfs are done just show that they don't take actual gameplay into consideration. I'm not again balancing Deception or every other class. I'm against nerf that aren't made with common sense, based on real gameplay. Those change will impact strongly how well Deception can perform in raid, again, what peoples have calculated show a dps loss of about 800. From a PvE point of view, it's just absurd, because the spec isn't exactly way ahead of the others (sure it can perform great on a dummy, but since when a whole game has been represented by a single dummy fight ?). The nerf will just make it fall behind. Sure, the top players on Parsely will still do decent damage, but overall the class itself will lose its interest when compared to other.

 

I understand your point of view, for now I personally am in a "wait and see" phase. My last two months of sub expires just after server merges. I don't see the point of subbing again if I have to wait another year for a complete, intelligent and fair class balance (especially about those utility, who should have been taken into consideration before changing dps/hps). I just hope that I will be able to enjoy this game like I enjoyed it before. I'll just say that the constant delay or mess up are way funnier to read on the Dev Tracker than the actual game is entertaining for me.

 

Have a great day,

[olagatonjedi]

The flaw being that BW balance around theoretical "target dummy", not actual content.

You don't truly know this, nor do I. I would be more inclined to believe they are using a combination of in-game data in addition to theory-based target dummy metrics.

[supertimtaf]

You don't truly know this, nor do I. I would be more inclined to believe they are using a combination of in-game data in addition to theory-based target dummy metrics.

 

They said it in their post if I remember correctly. "We don't balance class against content, instead we balance them around specific target dps". Those target are theorical value, otherwise we would have seen a real improvement in the live version for some class (Madness and Hatred received a buff. They are still bad on most fight of the game).

Sure, it may bring a class to its target dps on a dummy parse or on paper (still Carnage Marauder is ahead even after its nerf), but for now the live numbers aren't showing that the balance is made with actual content in mind. ^^ I'm not saying they aren't using in-game data, just that they are not using the correct data for this.

[minearne]

And there is the ultimate strategy:

 

Up the jugg on dps dot, (heavy armor and max cd)

dawn the assassin on ddps, ( light armor and 3 cd's)

don't up assassin on dps dot, ( light armor and 3 cd's and the unique capacity " dead in 3 sec" ( doesn't exist i know !)

 

And pretending there is a calcul to the "target dps" on dummie ( we all saw you playing eric ... you can't do this ... we know lol !)

 

And so: darkmuscoe said ! this the way to be a good editor !^^ long life to swtor !!!

 

You are good to make unfunny joke really ! this is your best plan to reconversion after killing our game ...

[Decidion]

Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed.

 

Perhaps you should take a little more time looking at the leaderboards. There are a number of burst spec classes in the mid 10K range, besides Assassins/Shadows. So no, a nerf was NOT needed. End of story.