Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[JakRoanin]

Sorry, but hard disagree. 

[yenzin]

3 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

Sorry, but hard disagree. 

To which part? I have thought for a while now that SCORPIO is a very pivotal plot point. She enhances the GEMINI units. She tells Arcann where Odessan is. Through her, a lot of actions others take becomes possible. If that beautiful, incredibly smart, cunning droid weren't a part of the story, events would have happened very differently. 

If you are disagreeing to this part: So, thanks, Agent. You are the prime reason Theron has even more trauma from believing his potential lover or best friend dies from getting stabbed through the chest by a spider droid. 💔 (My agent has guilt.)

then I wholly agree with your disagreement! Villains use that verbal abuse technique all the time. That it will be someone else's fault if the villain/abuser does such and such. Verbal abuse is never okay!

But most importantly: We are never responsible for the actions of others. Guilt though, is illogical and survivor guilt even more so. 

(I need to stop posting while in a hurry to get out the door. I think I end up being less articulate in getting my thoughts across. 😅) 

4 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

The Order of Zildrog probably still would have tried to destroy the Alliance, but, they would not have had Gemini 16 so Theron could have worked with the others freely instead of feeling the need to do it all himself.  (why do you have to be such a good spy and cause us and yourself all this trauma and stress, Theron 😢)

Oh, I also think the Order definitely still would happened. There are the Heralds of Zildrog, after all and some of them even joined the Order. 

Agreed! That habit of working alone is a hard one for him to break though. Ultimately, Theron needs to stop being a lone, rogue agent, thinking that he can or needs to do everything on his own. (I think he also has a bit of a martyr complex.) If the story wasn't so linear and illogical at times, then perhaps he would have taken the Outlander to one of the many planets out there, outside of GIMINI 16's surveillance, and asked for help. Asking for help while watching the sunset on Rishi would have made for a lovely scene. 😍

12 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I loved that class mission soooo much.  By far my very favorite of all the bonus class missions on Rishi that I have done so far, and I honestly doubt any of the others will top it.  It was so sweet and heartwarming the whole way, and when Orgus revealed that the whole time it was actually about healing JK from their traumatic experience, it got me right in the feels.

There are bonus class missions?! Or are you all talking about the main planet quest? Because if there are bonus class missions, then I think I may have managed to miss all of them! 😭

11 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

But bringing it around back to our Spy, the lack of teaching regarding emotional bonds is tragic. Yes, there may come a time when it's the destruction of a planet, or the life of Theron (hypothetically) and yes a Jedi would have to make the choice of the planet, but Theron would want his loved one to choose the planet. 

Agreed, he really would tell the PC to choose everyone else over him. 😥 Depending on the character, that is something I don't think I would be able to do. The choice between Torian and Vette was hard enough and I don't even know Vette beyond that she seems to be spunky and capable. If I had to choose between say, Torian or Theron. Or Theron and an entire planet of people, I would cry! Perhaps my characters should have reconsidered having a romance with anyone while in the position of Commander of the Alliance. Romance leads to feelings and fraternization problems. 😟

9 hours ago, Goreshaga said:

I really enjoy Torian's romance too, he's very respectful of F BH, but also quite sure of what he wants and he can tease her quite a lot, i actually really like the moments when he makes fun of her Mando'a. They have a good dynamic going on, and learn from each other which is also nice. And he's definitely not shy about PDA, in the chapter on Darvanis, they just kiss in front of everyone.

I came across this and if it is true, then that is incredibly sweet and makes me want to start a romance with Torian on a fem miraluka BH even more. It makes me think that Torian is really proud of femBH and I love the idea of that. 

8 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

Oh man, soooooo snarky 🤣  he sounds super salty about the Jedi with that line.  that is clearly meant to be the "most negative" option lol

ngl, I might need to find out if there is also a long dead Zenith love thread 😄  I might be the only one with any interest in posting in such a thread, but, slightly in love with Zenith atm and probably need to stop derailing Theron discussion with it haha

Salty! That's the word I was looking for when I was creating that post. 🤣

Good luck in your search. 😉 If you happen to come across a Torian love thread, let me know. Been looking and looking and looking and.....

[eabevella]

To be fair it's the Imperial Intelligence that prevented the Agent from scrapping SCORPIO, or ditching Kaliyo at Hutta in that matter lol

Not that it means I *hate* those companions, I think they are great because it shows how little autonomy the Agent actually has despite being able to cheat, lie, and kill thier way to their mission objective, and how they have to work with people they apparently can't trust even for a bit. I guess after a while the Agent just take that as a norm?

I think in a weird way, the Agent could appreciate SCORPIO's desire of self-independence/evolution because that might be something they also wants if you play one that picked the independence class story ending. At least I play mine as one. And SCORPIO is always very clear about her motive, it makes working with her easy. I actually picked the light side decision on Iokath with my Agent but dark side with my JK. My agent knew SCORPIO enough to know that she doesn't have interesting in ruling organics, but my JK didn't know her enough to take the risk.

Back to Theron. If it's Theron vs planet. Well, sorry planet, but I really need this idiot spy boyfriend.

*200 Dark Side point earned*

The hardest part would be the guilt Theron feels after he knows we choose him over a planet full of people. It might even be a deal breaker for him because he can't take the guilt. Ouch.

Hopefully I don't think BW is [censored] enough to pull that kill option trick again on Theron. Even though it was a no brainier choice the last time it happened.

[cannibithobbal]

2 hours ago, yenzin said:

Agreed! That habit of working alone is a hard one for him to break though. Ultimately, Theron needs to stop being a lone, rogue agent, thinking that he can or needs to do everything on his own. (I think he also has a bit of a martyr complex.) If the story wasn't so linear and illogical at times, then perhaps he would have taken the Outlander to one of the many planets out there, outside of GIMINI 16's surveillance, and asked for help. Asking for help while watching the sunset on Rishi would have made for a lovely scene. 😍

Even though it makes me sad that Theron fell back into his old loner spy habits and could not find a way to tell his friends what he was doing, I also completely understand why he did it and I think it was so in character for him.  Even though he has come so far with personal relationships and expanding where he sees himself in the universe, he was a really good spy for a really long time (Edit: to clarify, obv I know he still is, but, I'm talkin full time SIS spy lol), and when he WAS a spy he had one way of doing it: alone.  So as soon as he falls back into spy mode, that's what he knows.  We saw it before on Ziost, and saw it with the Order.  (You can take the boy out of the SIS...........)

Even if he started alone though, and even if he really believed the betrayal could only look real if they were in the dark, he certainly would have at least found a way to tell them something, anything (I mean he did eventually find a way to get a message to them, but that was later), if not for Gemini 16.  He is super smart and an incredibly good spy, and skilled at secret messages, and if anyone could have found a way to get around the Gemini hurdle before even going through with his plan, it's him, but I think as soon as he saw "every person I care about, and most importantly the love of my life, is in immediate mortal danger" he just got blinders on and felt so pressured to just do something ASAP that he wasn't thinking straight and did not take the time he needed to find a way around the problem.  That is how have always interpreted the situation, anyway.

I think that that mission will have changed him forever though.  I don't think he will ever do an undercover mission with no support or ever hide what he's up to from PC and Lana ever again.  Even though I'm guessing non-romanced characters don't get the "leaving you there on Umbara, it destroyed me, I don't think I'll ever forgive myself for what I did" line (do they at least get something similar?  I mean I frankly hope so, that line is so vital to showing how guilty Theron feels over the situation), I really think it destroyed him whether he was pretending to betray the person he loved or not, just, different levels of destroyed.

2 hours ago, yenzin said:

There are bonus class missions?! Or are you all talking about the main planet quest? Because if there are bonus class missions, then I think I may have managed to miss all of them! 😭

It's the ones on Rishi, that happen between going after the Nova Blades and doing the Torch's Flame FP.  Each class gets their own unique mission, so idk if they are actually called bonus class missions but that's what I always call them lol

2 hours ago, yenzin said:

The choice between Torian and Vette was hard enough and I don't even know Vette beyond that she seems to be spunky and capable. If I had to choose between say, Torian or Theron. Or Theron and an entire planet of people, I would cry! Perhaps my characters should have reconsidered having a romance with anyone while in the position of Commander of the Alliance. Romance leads to feelings and fraternization problems. 😟

For me, the choice between Torian and Vette was the easiest hard decision I ever made in the game.... sorry Torian but Vette is my second favorite character and I will protect her with my life as much as I will Theron.  Vette will never ever die in a single playthrough of mine, killing her would break me.

Now, if they made me choose between Theron and Vette?  I would delete the game.  That is a choice I refuse to make lol

1 hour ago, eabevella said:

Back to Theron. If it's Theron vs planet. Well, sorry planet, but I really need this idiot spy boyfriend.

*200 Dark Side point earned*

Oh, no question, the planet goes.

My fully light side Jedi would take 2000000 dark side points to save Theron.  F*** that planet* lmao

 

(*unless Vette's on it.  in which case I delete the game.)

Edited May 10, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Traceguy]

15 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

Sorry, but hard disagree. 

I'm guessing you might be one of the many people who got out of context spoilers for the character. Just play the story and don't worry what some "spoiler" might have revealed to you.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Traceguy

[JakRoanin]

Nope I'm up to date on all my characters I'm not spoiled this is where I hard disagree...

11 hours ago, yenzin said:

If you are disagreeing to this part: So, thanks, Agent. You are the prime reason Theron has even more trauma from believing his potential lover or best friend dies from getting stabbed through the chest by a spider droid. 💔 (My agent has guilt.)

That's my hard disagree. 

BTW my Planet or Theron example was just hypothetical. But my BH would choose Planet for Theron.

[cannibithobbal]

 

ngl, I am still not even sure what "stabbed through the chest by a spider droid" even refers to 🤔  is that some imperial side plot or the result of some alt decision I didn't make?  I have wracked my brain and got nothin and feel dumb haha

[eabevella]

Maybe not spider droid but Atrius the doormat just like his decoration's department from Nathema Conspiracy?

Killing him is a no brainer for me too.

[cannibithobbal]

I have been so tempted to kill Atrius every time, and if he had actually killed Theron I 100% would, but he just hurt him so I can't let my Jedis go dark side for that.... just angry enough to threaten him but ultimately make the light choice.  I always choose "make him Zakuul's problem" tho lol  because no way I'm allowing that maniac anywhere near Odessen, not even in a prison cell.

[Goreshaga]

3 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

I have been so tempted to kill Atrius every time, and if he had actually killed Theron I 100% would, but he just hurt him so I can't let my Jedis go dark side for that.... just angry enough to threaten him but ultimately make the light choice.  I always choose "make him Zakuul's problem" tho lol  because no way I'm allowing that maniac anywhere near Odessen, not even in a prison cell.

I've spared and imprisoned him when i did it on my original JK, but i think i'll actually kill him next time i do it with a clone. He not only nearly killed Theron, but also nearly killed all the people on Odessen and could've done far worse if we didn't stop him, so he'll probably be less dangerous once he's dead. I'll most probably do the same with Saresh tbh, she could've harmed the people of the Alliance, and it's also a waste of ressources to keep her alive, not to mention if she finds people willing to get her out she could be a liability i'd rather not have to deal with.

 

Regarding the sacrifing Theron to save a planet vs sacrificing a planet to save Theron, i really don't know what i'd do. Me, as the player would definitely save Theron because i really care about my favorite LI and don't really care about the non-existant people of that non-existant planet. My JK though... i'm really not sure she could live with herself if she sacrified millions of people to save her man, not sure Theron could live with himself either after that. In the end she may decide to save the plantet, but she'd probably end her own life afterwards, and so i'd probably stop playing.

If it was saving Theron vs saving any other companion, Theron would live 100% of the time though, just like i always save Torian over Vette. Sorry Vette, but Torian's one of my top 3 LIs and you're unfortunately not even close (not to mention i have a female Twi'lek smuggler who's quite similar to Vette, so Vette's a bit redundant and i like my Smuggler more anyways), had it been Vette vs Ashara, i'd never have hesitated to let Vaylin kill her or kill her myself though, especially on my Nox, Vaylin's reaction to that could've been hilarious too.

[cannibithobbal]

Something that struck me as I was rewatching stuff: did we ever actually get a full explanation of Theron's role on Iokath?  He fully explains and repeatedly apologizes for his actions on Umbara, but unless I seeeeriously missed something, I think other than assumptions and guesses, all we actually have to explain exactly what happened with Iokath are two things:

1. the superweapon droid saying that the person who lured them to Iokath also sabotaged the superweapon (or, at least, PC telling Lana and Theron that that's what the droid said - imo the droid's actual words were potentially open to a bit more interpretation - plus it could just be wrong, or lying)

2. the recording from the Nathema Conspiracy intro section (on the listening station), where Atrius says "You expect me to trust you, after you helped the outlander form a partnership with the republic/empire?  In a single blow you doubled their support and cut ours in half." then Theron responds "I also led the commander into that trap on Iokath, you wouldn't hear me out so I took matters into my own hands."

We know someone sent a message to all three factions about the superweapon, and we know someone sabotaged the superweapon.  The latter was clearly definitely Theron, as explained by that recording.  But the weird thing is that the way their conversation goes makes it really sound like Theron DIDN'T actually lure everyone there but that the Order did. 

Theron specifically says he "led the commander into that trap" not "led the Alliance into that trap".  It would be a seriously elaborate scheme just to get the Order's attention to lure three different factions to Iokath just to pretend to try and kill the commander of the Alliance in a trap and fail (like, lol, was Atrius really not suspicious of the fact this "trap" Theron "did for him" didn't even actually work btw).  

It also sounds like the Order wanted all three factions to be at war and simply did not anticipate two of them taking sides?  Which makes me wonder if the Order was actually responsible for luring all three of them there, and that Theron's role in it was that he knew that was happening and didn't say anything, as opposed to him all on his own deciding to lure all three factions there. 

Also just, I find it hard to believe that Theron would deliberately pit 3 warring parties against each other and inflict so much collateral damage just to try and prove himself to the Order to get them to let him in.  Even on Umbara, the collateral damage is really minimal and he gives Lana and PC a giant warning light to get off the train before he derails it (which obviously he knows they will do, and he gives them plenty of time to do). To me it seems way more in character that he knew the Order was going to lure everyone there and knew he couldn't say anything or try to interfere without them knowing, but that he used the situation to simultaneously do something he could present to the Order as a show of loyalty while also actually minimalize casualies: sabotage the superweapon controls.  (Because his actions very clearly accomplish both.)

idk, I could be totally wrong, could be the droid was telling the truth and Theron himself lured everyone there, and that's definitely what I thought it was before because they imply it in the narrative, but suddenly not so sure.... not saying I think he definitely didn't, but that.... I don't think we ever actually got a definite clear explanation.  Theron spends half his time on Iokath looking guilty af, but that could just as easily be because he knows why everyone is there and that he is pre-guilty about the trap he is going to set as because he actually brought everyone there.

Another thing I probably should have thought about sooner but really didn't lol: Theron clearly knew before they even went to Iokath exactly where the superweapon was (and specifically the location of the exact superweapon throne that they go to) and how to sabotage it in a way that would not kill anyone but would look like it was meant to, and he just pretended to be helping them look for it the whole time.  He was doing ALL THIS to save the PC, he would not go into that superweapon room without a very very precise plan to make it look good to the Order without actually harming anyone.  And he only could have done that with pre-planning.  So whether he was the one who lured them all there or he simply knew they were going to lured there by the Order, he must have scouted ahead before they sent Lana there.

I also think he must have gone into it fully expecting the Alliance to get to any superweapon controls first (since he knew where it was and could lead them there) but then whichever party does not side with the Alliance manages to find a control first anyway (possibly a control he did not know about?)  Because there's no way he wanted to risk anyone ACTUALLY activating the superweapon, or for one of the faction leaders to die trying to activate it.  He was trying to inflitrate the Order to stop them and save lives, not get a bunch of people killed.

I totally HC that Theron fully explains and apologizes for what he did on Iokath, but he never actually does in game like he does with his actions on Umbara, and that means we never hear his honest side (just what he tells Atrius in that recording, which is him undercover anyway) so I don't think we can be sure we know exactly what he did or what happened.

 

....that ended up being way longer ramblings than I planned on, I don't even know if it all made sense.  But, this is what my brain does sometimes lol

Edited May 10, 2023 by cannibithobbal
typo

[Goreshaga]

Honestly the whole Iokath part is pretty confusing, and i don't think it was ever clarified anywhere what Theron's actual role there was.

I'm not even sure they had fully fleshed out the entire arc when they launched Iokath, which would explain why it's so confusing.

Like, was he the one who lured everybody there or did he only want to bring the Commander there and it was a coincidence the other two factions where there as well ? Did he hack Tyth to say a lot of BS or not ? Did he sabotage the throne in order to save the Commander ? Who decoded the files the Commander and Theron found next to the dead guy ?

 

I may have a theory, but it probably only works for a playthrough similar to mine, so mostly LS and pro-Republic, and even then not sure it really works (also it's already 2:00 am here, so maybe i'll not make a whole lot of sense).

I think the one who decoded the files was GEMINI 16 while she was looking for Zildrog, it is possible the Order of Zildrog (OoZ for short) wanted to seize this weapon for themselves, Theron found out about that and wanted to prevent it, either by getting it into the Alliance's hands or by having it deactivated, while also trying to infiltrate them, so he needed the Commander there but having only the Alliance would be suspicious, so he had to lure the other factions, maybe hoping the Alliance and the Republic at the very least would cooperate (as he's a pub at heart), and technically the Alliance and the Empire were supposed to be allies, so he may have hoped that Acina would cooperate as well, which would also have the benefit of strenghening the Alliance itself, without costing too many lives, but things didn't really work out that way. I don't think it was the OoZ who lured everybody there because Attrius seemed to blame Theron for the Commander-Malcom/Acina alliance, which i imagine he couldl've predicted if he was the one luring everybody there

Considering what he said on Nathema, he probably did hack Tyth to make him say some BS, and probably sabotaged the throne as well, so that it'd look like he tried but failed to kill the Commander, by having the whole thing hurting the Commander while being non lethal.

 

All that being said, Iokath is the most frustrating part of the whole arc, because it's so unclear and confusing.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Goreshaga

[cannibithobbal]

2 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Honestly the whole Iokath part is pretty confusing, and i don't think it was ever clarified anywhere what Theron's actual role there was.

I'm not even sure they had fully fleshed out the entire arc when they launched Iokath, which would explain why it's so confusing.

Like, was he the one who lured everybody there or did he only want to bring the Commander there and it was a coincidence the other two factions where there as well ? Did he hack Tyth to say a lot of BS or not ? Did he sabotage the throne in order to save the Commander ? Who decoded the files the Commander and Theron found next to the dead guy ?

I didn't actually even think about the "already decoded into basic" files that they found.  Honestly, what if Theron only pretended to find them there at the throne and he had already found them previously and decoded them himself?  I really think he planned a ton of stuff in advance and knew what the superweapon was and where to find it, and finding those files previously would have been a part of such a plan.

Didn't even consider he might have just straight up hacked the droid to make it tell the commander about there being a spy.  Like, he's an extremely good slicer, he certainly had the skills to, so it's always possible.  And it would fit with the fact he was already planting SO MANY seeds about what was happening without telling them directly.  Like, on a rewatch there are a number of times he says something where you realize "oh, he's actually giving them information that they can use later while pretending to keep them in the dark or put suspicion off himself", like how HE is the one who says it could be him who's the traitor, for example.  He actually reveals the truth while pretending not to multiple times, which, knowing the truth, and knowing how good of a spy he is, is absolutely not an accident.

8 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

I think the one who decoded the files was GEMINI 16 while she was looking for Zildrog, it is possible the Order of Zildrog (OoZ for short) wanted to seize this weapon for themselves, Theron found out about that and wanted to prevent it, either by getting into the Alliance's hands or by having it deactivated, while also trying to infiltrate them, so he needed the Commander there but having only the Alliance would be suspicious, so he had to lure the other factions, maybe hoping the Alliance and the Republic at the very least would cooperate (as he's a pub at heart), and technically the Alliance and the Empire were supposed to be allies, so he may have hoped that Acina would cooperate as well, which would also have the benefit of strenghening the Alliance itself, without costing too many lives, but things didn't really work out that way. I don't think it was the OoZ who lured everybody there because Attrius seemed to blame Theron for the Commander-Malcom/Acina alliance, which i imagine he couldl've predicted if he was the one luring everybody there

 

Yeah, that all made sense!  I think if it WAS Theron who lured them all there, then that would be a totally valid explanation as to why.  Honestly something similar to that is what I had always kind of assumed before.  It is only now on thinking about it more that I am not so certain. 

9 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Considering what he said on Nathema, he probably did hack Tyth to make him say some BS, and probably sabotaged the throne as well, so that it'd look like he tried but failed to kill the Commander, by having the whole thing hurting the Commander while being non lethal

Yeah, I am 100% certain that Theron sabotaged the throne in a way he knew would hurt and look like a valid assassination attempt from the outside but would be very much non-lethal.  Like I think I mentioned in a previous post, Theron has specific experience with creating a non-lethal electrical attack because he did it before on Ziost.

[JakRoanin]

You know, maybe because I don't have a "favorite LI" I mean my characters end up with who they end up with based on who they are, not me personally. I have less bias about Iokath and the Traitor Arc in general. To me, it makes perfect sense Theron did what he did and how he did it. The only thing I'd prefer to know is who was his underworld contact? Just because the three factions got the information from the same source at the same time doesn't mean Theron directly leaked it. So, how did he get the information about Z Order?

[cannibithobbal]

ngl, "ok, but who are your contacts, Theron??" is a question I am constantly asking out loud at my computer 😅

like, I can't even count the number of times he mentions "contacts" and never once gives any more details.  Half the time it's as an excuse to take off or not join on a mission too, "gotta go meet with a contact"???, ffs Theron, what about me. 😅

Bottom line, pretty sure we will never get that answer unfortunately haha

I am guessing whoever his contacts were, he probably did not involve them in any aspect of his undercover op though, if he was so afraid of the Order finding out what he was up to that he wouldn't even send a coded hidden encrypted message to the two people he trusts most in the galaxy, do not see him involving some random contact who could talk or be sloppy or whatever.  The most he might have involved someone else I think would have been to leak the info to someone he knew would take it to each faction?  Except I am pretty sure they make it clear that each faction received the info very directly from the same source, so that is not likely what he did.  He said he heard about the Order from his underworld contacts, but pretty sure that's as far as it went, they gave him info, he acted on it and did not involve them again.

Edited May 11, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JakRoanin]

Ok I have to ask... what on earth does ngl mean?

[eabevella]

The whole Traitor arc was rushed. I guess it's partly because the whole kotet and the machine god thing was supposed to be longer and even have their own expansion but got axed due to people hating the kotxx arc.

The way they hinted Tyth on Iokath in the main story, you'd think we will get something out of Valley of the Machine Gods. But there's nothing. Not even some lore that should hint the existence of Zildrog.

If you never played Gods, the plot is basically us, the chosen one, woke up the machine gods on Iokath, and it's in the prophecy of the surviving Zakuul prophets (they're somehow on Iokath, don't ask why). They say some vague prophecy bullsh*t and we go in to fulfill our destiny. Most of it is simply "the machine gods wants to kill us so we fight them". But after we destroy Tyth, the Twin Sisters, Nahut, and their mother Scyva who's the consort of the Machine God Izax, Scyva recognized our power and decided to help us defeat Izax by transferring her mind into a Gemini body. We defeated Izax with her help.

That sounds interesting right? Unfortunately, nothing came out of that operation. Scyva wasn't even mentioned after we finish the operation and talk to the Zakuul prophets, who again tell us some vague bullsh*t that isn't even some foreshadow that's clear in retrospect.

Now, I understand they probably didn't want to make a main story plot exclusive to operation, but the whole operation feels like BW was busy wrapping up the whole Zakuul theme they gave up any story paving.

So, what's it has to do with Theron?

If you take all the element from Gods, you could actually see a really big story arc: once we defeated and get the tech of the machine gods, we can get their module and turn into one of them (hella fun in pvp zone). The Gods story should have a solo player option like the Revan arc. Theron is the perfect person to investigate all these tech, get hints of the existence of Zildrog, and even a few extra dialogue from Scyva.

We can see some hints of conspiracy while dealing with the whole Empire vs Republic on Iokath politics. The "picking a side" decision should come much later to set up the future traitor arc. There will be enough time for us to see Theron goes on digging deeper between small game/story updates and gets more restless in time. We know more about Iokath and have better control of it to the point where we have to make the choice with wither the Empire or the Republic and lead to either Achina or Malcom's death. Imo it would be more interesting story-wise if both factions want to force us giving up Iokath in the beginning and only want to form an alliance with us after the stalemate. It will give more space to let us think Theron might actually disagree with our action when the truth is Theron recognizes the fact that both factions stab us in the back. This will be a much better foreshadowing for the Umbara FP and depending on how the dialogues are written it can fit well with both LS and DS play through (just without the stupid kill option of course). It could be a decent sized expansion with a lot of good opportunity to give more character depth to Theron instead of the short rushed FPs we got now.

[cannibithobbal]

21 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Ok I have to ask... what on earth does ngl mean?

oh, it means "not gonna lie" haha  (sorry, I use way too many acronyms sometimes)

[cannibithobbal]

54 minutes ago, eabevella said:

The whole Traitor arc was rushed. I guess it's partly because the whole kotet and the machine god thing was supposed to be longer and even have their own expansion but got axed due to people hating the kotxx arc.

wait, people hated the KotXX story?????  it's literally the reason I love this game so much lmao 🤣  (I suppose I should have expected, let's just say I am not a stranger to having the opposite opinions to loads of other Star Wars fans lol)

As for the traitor arc, first off (to clarify my thought process), I think of Iokath and the FPs as separate entities, same overall story, but separate halves.  That said, for me personally I don't think any of it felt rushed, but I do think Iokath felt.... thin, story-wise, and left a lot of loose threads.  I loved the character stuff in it, but the actual plot definitely was a bit thin, especially after the really epic story that preceded it. 

As for the FPs, considering the original release time between Crisis on Umbara and The Nathema Conspiracy was over a year (which makes me so glad I didn't start playing til way later and didn't have to wait in real time for that), I honestly shudder to think what a slower version of the story would have been haha  And even though I can now complete it in one evening, it still feels almost too long (or at best just long enough, story-wise) to be without Theron, I would not want him to be gone any longer (him being in the "unavailable companions" section hurts my soul).  So personally I think the FPs (and the cutscenes around them) is just the right amount of story. 

I mean, if Theron was gone with the Order for a really long time, and for a lot of missions, it would not only suck to be doing that many missions without him (like, it would really suck) 😢, but also story-wise it would kinda go counter to the idea that he was forced to rush into this undercover mission too fast to even find a way to tell anyone else about it.  He said that he went in because the Order was so close that he saw no other choice and was planning to slow them down from the inside.  In truth it definitely seems like rather than slow them down though, he ended up just being able to find out their super exact plans and a way to get the info back to the Alliance in time.  And if they were that close when he found them and he barely slowed them down once inside, it makes sense that it really wasn't a lot of time that he was gone, and that he didn't just keep constantly popping up for them to go after him in different missions.  The Order was being super secretive, after all.  And their expert on tracking people down was the one on the inside, so they were working with very slim intel.

So emotional roller coaster aside (or maybe because of the emotional roller coaster - I might be part masochist for painful stories lol), I have no issue with the FP part of the fractured alliances storyline.  I actually really like it (other than the fact the devs made Theron killable, but since I will literally never do that ever in a million years, the story in my playthroughs is always good). 

I have more issues with Iokath feeling like it was pretty thin on story.... and specifically follow-up.  Obviously, I wish they did better to explain exactly what Theron's role really was, like how much was he actually involved, how much does he feel guilty for????  I need to know how many hugs he deserves, ok.

....that was me rambling again, sorry lol

54 minutes ago, eabevella said:

The Gods story should have a solo player option like the Revan arc. Theron is the perfect person to investigate all these tech, get hints of the existence of Zildrog, and even a few extra dialogue from Scyva.

100% agreed.  As someone who has basically no one to play with and can only do solo content, I don't like when actual story is tied up in operations with no solo alternative to experience the same story content.  Even if it's kind of tangential extra story, the whole "gods" thing that was introduced on Iokath feels like it goes absolutely bloody nowhere.  I only just discovered in game entirely by accident that that operation exists, and that it follows up on that story.  Before that I genuinely just thought the devs introduced it and completely forget about it lol.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[eabevella]

2 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

wait, people hated the KotXX story?????  it's literally the reason I love this game so much lmao 🤣  (I suppose I should have expected, let's just say I am not a stranger to having the opposite opinions to loads of other Star Wars fans lol)

As for the traitor arc, first off (to clarify my thought process), I think of Iokath and the FPs as separate entities, same overall story, but separate halves.  That said, for me personally I don't think any of it felt rushed, but I do think Iokath felt.... thin, story-wise, and left a lot of loose threads.  I loved the character stuff in it, but the actual plot definitely was a bit thin, especially after the really epic story that preceded it. 

As for the FPs, considering the original release time between Crisis on Umbara and The Nathema Conspiracy was over a year (which makes me so glad I didn't start playing til way later and didn't have to wait in real time for that), I honestly shudder to think what a slower version of the story would have been haha  And even though I can now complete it in one evening, it still feels almost too long (or at best just long enough, story-wise) to be without Theron, I would not want him to be gone any longer (him being in the "unavailable companions" section hurts my soul).  So personally I think the FPs (and the cutscenes around them) is just the right amount of story. 

I mean, if Theron was gone with the Order for a really long time, and for a lot of missions, it would not only suck to be doing that many missions without him (like, it would really suck) 😢, but also story-wise it would kinda go counter to the idea that he was forced to rush into this undercover mission too fast to even find a way to tell anyone else about it.  He said that he went in because the Order was so close that he saw no other choice and was planning to slow them down from the inside.  In truth it definitely seems like rather than slow them down though, he ended up just being able to find out their super exact plans and a way to get the info back to the Alliance in time.  And if they were that close when he found them and he barely slowed them down once inside, it makes sense that it really wasn't a lot of time that he was gone, and that he didn't just keep constantly popping up for them to go after him in different missions.  The Order was being super secretive, after all.  And their expert on tracking people down was the one on the inside, so they were working with very slim intel.

So emotional roller coaster aside (or maybe because of the emotional roller coaster - I might be part masochist for painful stories lol), I have no issue with the FP part of the fractured alliances storyline.  I actually really like it (other than the fact the devs made Theron killable, but since I will literally never do that ever in a million years, the story in my playthroughs is always good). 

I have more issues with Iokath feeling like it was pretty thin on story.... and specifically follow-up.  Obviously, I wish they did better to explain exactly what Theron's role really was, like how much was he actually involved, how much does he feel guilty for????  I need to know how many hugs he deserves, ok.

....that was me rambling again, sorry lol

100% agreed.  As someone who has basically no one to play with and can only do solo content, I don't like when actual story is tied up in operations with no solo alternative to experience the same story content.  Even if it's kind of tangential extra story, the whole "gods" thing that was introduced on Iokath feels like it goes absolutely bloody nowhere.  I only just discovered in game entirely by accident that that operation exists, and that it follows up on that story.  Before that I genuinely just thought the devs introduced it and completely forget about it lol.

 

Kotxx is great if you play a LS JK (that's why my LS JK is my Outlander) but it's a pain to play the expansions if you don't play the type of character the story is tailor made of (LS Force user). People also lose even more class/facton specific flavor compared to RotHC and SoR. A lot of people hate kotxx for it if they don't already hate the idea of Zakuul and Iokath. Agree or disagree, but kotxx is far from well received.

There's also problems on BW's end. They were forced to move a lot of developers to do Anthem. I can't remember the detail (axe first or Anthem first) because I saw it from other people's discussions but it hurt the game a lot (or at least it was a mess according to yt historian lol). All kinds of problems led to the decision to cut and wrap up the whole Zakuul story.

That's why Iokath feels so empty. The original plan for Kotxx was supposed to be a trilogy. But only Kotfe is full length. Kotet got cut in half. And whatever plan they originally had was transformed into the Iokath-Traitor arc.

There's no way to find what the original project was truly about, but whatever it might be, a full expansion should be a much better set up for the Traitor arc if it was their original planned ending to the expansion. I do agree that the Traitor FPs run pretty smooth where the story unfold/wrap up does its job. What it lacks was a proper set up.

How/when did Theron find out the Order of Zildrog? There should be story updates between the Kotet and Iokath where the hints of something threatening the Alliance are planted and general suspicion and mistrust rising before the Imp/Pub invasion. There are hinted cut contents of more planets/area (again, no concrete evidence). Theron should have more screen time during the Kotet-Iokath transition and the players more time to discover/suspect secrets of Zakuul with him before the Umbara FP. Not just because I want to see more of Theron, but it will make the whole Kotet-Iokath-Traitor arc more complete instead of all the wtf moments due to the complete lack of story building.

*shrug* but I guess I'm just glad that swtor is still alive and kicking after all the mess so we still have contents to play.

Edited May 11, 2023 by eabevella

[Goreshaga]

4 hours ago, cannibithobbal said:

wait, people hated the KotXX story?????  it's literally the reason I love this game so much lmao 🤣

Yeah there were a lot of complaints back then, for various reasons. Some people didn't like it because they felt it made them loose their character's identity, others because they just wanted to go back to Imp vs Pub ASAP, others because there was no group content during that time... In any case the complaints were loud and seemingly numerous enough to force BW to go from the 3x16 chapters they had originally planned to 16+9. The whole Traitor arc and EoO would probably have been part of that, and if that's the case, the Traitor arc would probably have been build up a bit better than what we got with Iokath. And we'd probably know better what Theron's exact role in all that would've been.

Honestly the arc itself is okayish (outside of that stupid kill option, and Iokath being a bit confusing), but i agree with eabevella that it needed more background work for it to make sense with hints that there were problems and where we would've seen Theron become more agitated before reaching the Umbara part.

 

As for KOTFEET, i personally like them, but the more i think about it, the more i hate how they used Theron since the beginning of KOTFE, and the less i understand the reasoning behind it.

They left him in the background most of the time, giving roles he would've been the most suited for to other companions. Like the rescue mission, he would've been far more qualified than Lana for that, seeing how he managed to rescue himself when she got him captured on Rishi, or how he managed to escape Vitiate's puppets on Ziost all by himself, or how him and Gnost-Dural infiltraded the Ascendant Spear, but for some reason, he's not even involved. When we board Arcann's flagship, he stays on the Gravestone to fire the omnicannon, which is something anybody could do, when he'd be at least as qualified, if not more than Vette to infiltrate the ship and sabotage it, seeing how he did exactly that on the Ascendant Spear, not to mention he's a far better fighter than her. But nope, both time he just stays behind doing next to nothing, when he coul've been more involved and doing things with us. Not to mention how many times he comes with us only to disappear less than 5 minutes after the beginning of the mission to meet some contacts or whatever the excuse of the moment is... And he should've been with pub characters on Ossus to help save his buddy Gnost-Dural, but nope, once again, meeting some random contacts was more important, apparently... It's so irritating that they have a character who's basically a super spy, with skills and achievements on par with our PCs, but they decided to do nearly nothing with him, and only some vague stuff in the background except for the remote piloting of a shuttle on Iokath, infiltrating Vaylin's party and the Traitor arc, where let's be honest, he did most of the things off screen as well, and which ended with him having a kill option... 😡

Edited May 11, 2023 by Goreshaga

[eabevella]

12 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Yeah there were a lot of complaints back then, for various reasons. Some people didn't like it because they felt it made them loose their character's identity, others because they just wanted to go back to Imp vs Pub ASAP, others because there was no group content during that time... In any case the complaints were loud and seemingly numerous enough to force BW to go from the 3x16 chapters they had originally planned to 16+9. The whole Traitor arc and EoO would probably have been part of that, and if that's the case, the Traitor arc would probably have been build up a bit better than what we got with Iokath. And we'd probably know better what Theron's exact role in all that would've been.

Honestly the arc itself is okayish (outside of that stupid kill option, and Iokath being a bit confusing), but i agree with eabevella that it needed more background work for it to make sense with hints that there were problems and where we would've seen Theron become more agitated before reaching the Umbara part.

 

As for KOTFEET, i personally like them, but the more i think about it, the more i hate how they used Theron since the beginning of KOTFE, and the less i understand the reasoning behind it.

They left him in the background most of the time, giving roles he would've been the most suited for to other companions. Like the rescue mission, he would've been far more qualified than Lana for that, seeing how he managed to rescue himself when she got him captured on Rishi, or how he managed to escape Vitiate's puppets on Ziost all by himself, or how him and Gnost-Dural infiltraded the Ascendant Spear, but for some reason, he's not even involved. When we board Arcann's flagship, he stays on the Gravestone to fire the omnicannon, which is something anybody could do, when he'd be at least as qualified, if not more than Vette to infiltrate the ship and sabotage it, seeing how he did exactly that on the Ascendant Spear, not to mention he's a far better fighter than her. But nope, both time he just stays behind doing next to nothing, when he coul've been more involved and doing things with us. Not to mention how many times he comes with us only to disappear less than 5 minutes after the beginning of the mission to meet some contacts or whatever the excuse of the moment is... And he should've been with pub characters on Ossus to help save his buddy Gnost-Dural, but nope, once again, meeting some random contacts was more important, apparently... It's so irritating that they have a character who's basically a super spy, with skills and achievements on par with our PCs, but they decided to do nearly nothing with him, and only some vague stuff in the background except for the remote piloting of a shuttle on Iokath, infiltrating Vaylin's party and the Traitor arc, where let's be honest, he did most of the things off scereen as well), and which ended with him having a kill option... 😡

BW doesn't have a good track record regarding how they favor their uwu waifu LIs but that's another can of worms so I'll just shut my mouth.

Hard agree that the stuffs you mentioned should be Theron's job. Yet BW just made him downright disappear in almost half of the kotfe chapters.

[Goreshaga]

58 minutes ago, eabevella said:

BW doesn't have a good track record regarding how they favor their uwu waifu LIs but that's another can of worms so I'll just shut my mouth.

Hard agree that the stuffs you mentioned should be Theron's job. Yet BW just made him downright disappear in almost half of the kotfe chapters.

Yep, it's really unfortunate, because sometimes it'd be so much better if they actually used the characters who make the most sense.

[cannibithobbal]

Personally, I have no issues with how Theron is used in KotXX stories.  Like, of course he could always be there more (and I would always take it), but it definitely never bothers me when I play or when I think about it because I love so many of the other characters as well, and I love the whole story as it exists.  Would I also love a totally alt version of the story where it's Theron, Lana, and my character as a trio basically the whole way with other characters joining where it makes sense?  Absolutely, that would be a dream.  But, I also love what we did get.

My favorite chapters are still the ones with lots of Theron, of course (Iokath and The Dragon's Maw is an awesome chunk to me since Iokath is almost all Theron and Vette and Dragon's Maw is all Theron), and it's not like I wouldn't change ANYTHING in the story if I had the chance to (which would always include more Theron - I would definitely make it Theron, Lana, and Koth all come to the initial Zakuul rescue) but as it stands I still love it, it doesn't bother me, I feel like he is in a lot.  I mean especially compared to recent stories loooool 

I definitely agree that there are times when a different character would have made more sense as a companion in certain situations, which goes for much more than just Theron, but, since I love everyone it never bothered me, I was always happy to take whoever.

I'm super easy to please though, what can I say.

(edited to say: I realize I should say that if I had played the whole game in real time as it all came out I might feel very differently about some things, as I often feel differently about a show I binge vs watch over 7 years for instance, but as someone who played the whole story from character creation to onslaught in under a week - twice lol - that's the only frame of reference I have for the experience, and as it is I really enjoyed it, even when it wasn't perfect.  oh, and, I definitely dislike how little Theron there is post-Nathema Conspiracy, it's so clear he got relegated to the background because of their killable decision, the stupidity of which I know is one thing we can all agree on.... up TO that point in the story though, I was happy with it)

It is definitely mega sad to know that whining players and that crap Anthem game resulted in drastically shortening the whole story, because I would have absolutely loved an even longer version.   I still wouldn't want the actual "Theron pretends to betray then comes back" section to be any longer though (if it was, like, 2 chapters instead of 3 FPs or something, that would be fine, probably, but no more), because it hurts enough already when he's gone.  But if Iokath through to EoO stuff was part of a chapters-based story like KotXX then that would have been awesome.  It definitely always felt like post-KotET the whole story suddenly lost steam and just drastically and very quickly shifted gears away from the Alliance stuff that they had made me absolutely love, and knowing that we should have gotten something much better and that they did shift away from that deliberately because people complained makes me very very sad.

Edited May 11, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[cannibithobbal]

5 hours ago, eabevella said:

*shrug* but I guess I'm just glad that swtor is still alive and kicking after all the mess so we still have contents to play.

Forgot to say: yes to this.  100% agreed.  Considering I only got into the game less than a year ago, I am obviously really glad it's still going or I never would have discovered it at all. 😅  And even if I love some of the older stories more than I love the newer ones, and content releases are super spread out, and there isn't nearly enough Theron (or any of my other favorite companions), at least it is still here.  Given how low the player base is compared to some other MMOs, I am very happy that this lovely SW one keeps clinging to life, and I can keep living my twi'lek Jedi dreams with the best idiot spy boyfriend. ☺️