BW please, fix your application

[Darimund]

No reason that is visible to you using procmon. Please do carry on, this is actually quite enlightening on your lack of knowledge.

 

Except that procmon monitors everything that any running application does and logs it. Try again.

 

Actually, upon further thought, don't bother. You're not exactly providing any evidence that the game does need admin rights to function (probably because there isn't any). Seems like all you've attempted to do here is question my competency. I've offered fact and evidence that it doesn't need admin, not conjecture or supposition.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Darimund

[orangenee]

This is the most enjoyable thread I've seen in quite some time. It's like watching a soap opera - did he or didn't he uninstall bitraider? Did he or didn't he ignore the people he publicly announced he was ignoring?

 

10/10

 

I'd give it an 8 myself. It's lacking in strawman arguments and "that guy/girl" who actually knows his stuff who obliterates both of them with facts and knowledge. They're around somewhere, I know it.

 

GO THAT GUY!!

[Kittybear]

maybe he needs a better pc ? i don't know but when i run swtor bitraider is on and doesn't use everything, i am running 2 teamspeak server 2 teamspeak clients and my music and half the time i am also watching movies, also got my discord open and at the same time i'm uploading and downloading stuff with bittorent at speeds of 5-10 megabytes per second (note megabytes not megabits)my pc doesn't slow down, and it running 24/7 the only time it turns of is when windows 10 updates it self and my pc resets it self. with al this only 34% of my cpu is being used 45% of my memory and only 10% of my Hard drive and 25% of my network

 

i got an 17-4790k 4 ghz cpu

16 gb of mem

250 gb solid state disk for the game and a old hard disk of 1000 gb

and a geforce gtx 960

i do not see any problem other then your machine is in the low end spectrum.

 

Edit: just noticed bitraider turns it self off after game is booted up so his complaint might be real.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Kittybear

[Rion_Starkiller]

bitraider seems to work fine on both of my machines...? Edited August 27, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[Transcendent]

Except that procmon monitors everything that any running application does and logs it. Try again.

 

Actually, upon further thought, don't bother. You're not exactly providing any evidence that the game does need admin rights to function (probably because there isn't any). Seems like all you've attempted to do here is question my competency. I've offered fact and evidence that it doesn't need admin, not conjecture or supposition.

 

If you open resource monitor, filter by SWTOR.exe, you'll be able to see the modules that SWTOR requires access to for it to work.

 

Procmon doesn't show you that, only the process id(s) associated with SWTOR.

 

Unless of course you're forgetting that the hero engine communicates between client and server, so it will need to ensure it has access to system services to do so, or needs access to other system services such as control mapping / sound controls / graphics controls at the very least.

 

I mean, just a small example of the modules required - http://imgur.com/a/0iSSi

 

The game does require user permissions to access system services, and to ensure they are started or that it can start them so that it works. Also, I'd just like to point something out, you've offered no facts that this game doesn't require user permissions to run. All I've seen from you is conjecture without any understanding of the processes required for the game to run properly without error.

 

Just stop and think for one moment, if you open up preferences within the game itself (ignoring that the game actually needs to communicate with a server in the first place) what options do you have? Most of those options require access to actually work, without that access, that GUI is pretty useless.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Transcendent

[Darimund]

If you open resource monitor, filter by SWTOR.exe, you'll be able to see the modules that SWTOR requires access to for it to work.

 

Procmon doesn't show you that, only the process id(s) associated with SWTOR.

 

Unless of course you're forgetting that the hero engine communicates between client and server, so it will need to ensure it has access to system services to do so, or needs access to other system services such as control mapping / sound controls / graphics controls at the very least.

 

I mean, just a small example of the modules required - http://imgur.com/a/0iSSi

 

The game does require user permissions to access system services, and to ensure they are started or that it can start them so that it works. Also, I'd just like to point something out, you've offered no facts that this game doesn't require user permissions to run. All I've seen from you is conjecture without any understanding of the processes required for the game to run properly without error.

 

Just stop and think for one moment, if you open up preferences within the game itself (ignoring that the game actually needs to communicate with a server in the first place) what options do you have? Most of those options require access to actually work, without that access, that GUI is pretty useless.

 

except that none of what you've posted requires admin access to read. try again. You should review the security permissions on the windows folder and required permissions for any services that need to be running for the game to function. And don't forget, directX and other run times have calls to start and stop services already, which SWTOR already uses.

 

Anyway, procmon would indeed reveal if it did any hard reads to the system modules. It didn't during the timeframe i monitored it. Sure, there's system files that need to be present for many things, not just SWTOR to function. However, SWTOR doesn't put them there or MODIFY THEM.

 

And ohhh guess what, further proof that swtor doesn't need admin rights to function... using shims to get around the UAC prompts removes its admin rights it still works just fine. Running in the context of a standard user gives it all the rights it needs. Administrative access is, still, unnecessary and an unacceptable, and completely avoidable risk that BioWare should not introduce.

 

edit: Here... read up on how procmon works and get back to me https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/procmon

Edited August 27, 2017 by Darimund

[Darimund]

maybe he needs a better pc ? i don't know but when i run swtor bitraider is on and doesn't use everything, i am running 2 teamspeak server 2 teamspeak clients and my music and half the time i am also watching movies, also got my discord open and at the same time i'm uploading and downloading stuff with bittorent at speeds of 5-10 megabytes per second (note megabytes not megabits)my pc doesn't slow down, and it running 24/7 the only time it turns of is when windows 10 updates it self and my pc resets it self. with al this only 34% of my cpu is being used 45% of my memory and only 10% of my Hard drive and 25% of my network

 

i got an 17-4790k 4 ghz cpu

16 gb of mem

250 gb solid state disk for the game and a old hard disk of 1000 gb

and a geforce gtx 960

i do not see any problem other then your machine is in the low end spectrum.

 

Edit: just noticed bitraider turns it self off after game is booted up so his complaint might be real.

 

It was during the patching and verification phases that the bitraider client was killing performance. and for reference I have a i7-2700k, 16Gb ram, and 2 samsung 840 pro SSDs in a RAID 0.

[Andryah]

I'd give it an 8 myself. It's lacking in strawman arguments and "that guy/girl" who actually knows his stuff who obliterates both of them with facts and knowledge. They're around somewhere, I know it.

 

GO THAT GUY!!

 

Heh... true.. but not worth the effort.

 

Besides.. the OP clearly wants a fight over a trivial thing ... so don't give it to him.

[Darimund]

Heh... true.. but not worth the effort.

 

Besides.. the OP clearly wants a fight over a trivial thing ... so don't give it to him.

 

Yeaaahh actually I don't. If you go back and read the original post and follow up comments, I wasn't the one going all Alpha nerd first.

[CrazyCT]

I'm dropping my previous score down to 6/10, purely for the sheer desperation at trying to start a fight with anyone. So much potential wasted.

[Darimund]

I'm dropping my previous score down to 6/10, purely for the sheer desperation at trying to start a fight with anyone. So much potential wasted.

 

Where was I trying to start a fight? I don't see how responding in kind to an insult is starting a fight. Regardless, netnerds fighting doesn't change the fact that BW made mistakes and only BW can fix them.

[Transcendent]

You should review the security permissions on the windows folder and required permissions for any services that need to be running for the game to function.

 

I think you misunderstand how some system services work. I'll leave you to it as you're clearly set on your own agenda and simply can't accept that you are wrong in this instance.

 

Good day to you.

 

not worth the effort.

 

Indeed, it really isn't.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Transcendent

[Darimund]

I think you misunderstand how some system services work. I'll leave you to it as you're clearly set on your own agenda and simply can't accept that you are wrong in this instance.

 

Good day to you.

 

 

 

Indeed, it really isn't.

 

Figures, I proved you wrong and this is the best you can come up with? Get over yourself and research this some more. I work in IT security and have for years. I'm guessing you don't. Either way, your ramblings on this matter are at best a guess in a feeble attempt to defend something you don't understand.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Darimund

[Transcendent]

Figures, I proved you wrong and this is the best you can come up with? Get over yourself and research this some more. I work in IT security and have for years. I'm guessing you don't. Either way, your ramblings on this matter are at best a guess in a feeble attempt to defend something you don't understand.

 

And now come the false claims. As I said, good day to you.

[Darimund]

And now come the false claims. As I said, good day to you.

 

i don't see how forcibly removing the games ability to run in administrator context is a false claim. and YOU have yet to show me anywhere in the OS the game needs admin rights to function. I've shown you over and over again that it doesn't. I mean, is fact something that escapes comprehension from you?

Edited August 27, 2017 by Darimund

[Transcendent]

As I said, good day to you.

 

/5char. Not worth my time or effort mate.

[Darimund]

/5char. Not worth my time or effort mate.

 

lol well enjoy living in ignorance. must be blissful in your existence.

[Neo_Psy]

lol well enjoy living in ignorance. must be blissful in your existence.

 

Sadly it's the people who are the most ignorant who tend to argue the toss the most, even when proven wrong. Like the people you were having an exchange with. You make some interesting points about bitraider, I've always hated it and had issues with it. I must get round to going through the bother of ridding myself of it sometime soon.

 

It annoys me that I have to face an arduous task, tinkering and research to remove something that has been so utterly useless and actually an hindrance to me. (Not to mention have to download it all again) What for? So I could play the starter planets sooner if I wanted to before it fully finished downloading. Ironically a download that would of probably been so much faster if bitraider had not been dripping in data at a snails pace in the first place. Which by the way, is a feature I never wanted or made use of, I waited for the whole game to be fully downloaded before I decided to play.

 

 

Even the name, "Bitraider" sounds like some cheap malware.

[CrazyCT]

Arduous task? Are you using the right guide?

[Darimund]

Arduous task? Are you using the right guide?

 

While, admittedly, an exaggeration, i'm sure, the fact that BioWare was notified it was a problem practically the day it was included and, in typical BioWare fashion, ignored user complaints and provided no other direct means to "opt out", manually editing a file (not to mention the complete redownload of the game) to work around something broken is a step any user shouldn't have to take.

 

Neither is installing shims to force the launcher to not execute with elevated privileges so that system security can be maintained. Again, something brought to BioWares attention multiple times that they've chosen to ignore.

[Transcendent]

It annoys me that I have to face an arduous task, tinkering and research to remove something that has been so utterly useless and actually an hindrance to me. (Not to mention have to download it all again)

 

A small tip is to block Bitraider from communication before letting it download the game, that way you'll only be downloading once.

 

As to the claims of one individual in this thread, I certainly wouldn't put too much stock into it, a security researcher (or similar) wouldn't be posting in the manner that they have, nor would they be posting on the general discussion forums for a developer when they can contact them directly with any concerns. Before you blindly believe something you read on the internet it would be useful for the poster to show some credibility instead of ad hominem attacks on others as shown clearly in this thread.

[Darimund]

Sigh, tiresome. So I'll say it again;

 

 

 

Here is the old Bitraider one that I mentioned previously.

 

 

 

SERVICE_NAME: BRSptStub

TYPE : 10 WIN32_OWN_PROCESS

START_TYPE : 3 DEMAND_START

ERROR_CONTROL : 0 IGNORE

BINARY_PATH_NAME : "C:\ProgramData\BitRaider\BRSptStub.exe"

LOAD_ORDER_GROUP :

TAG : 0

DISPLAY_NAME : BitRaider Mini-Support Service Stub Loader

DEPENDENCIES :

SERVICE_START_NAME : LocalSystem

 

C:\Users\user>icacls "C:\ProgramData\BitRaider\BRSptStub.exe"

C:\ProgramData\BitRaider\BRSptStub.exe BUILTIN\Users:(F) <--------------------------

NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM:(F)

NT AUTHORITY\Authenticated Users:(F) <-------

BUILTIN\Administrators:(F)

NT AUTHORITY\INTERACTIVE:(F) <---------------

NT AUTHORITY\SERVICE:(F)

BUILTIN\Guests:(RX)

BUILTIN\Users:(I)(F) <-----------------------

NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM:(I)(F)

NT AUTHORITY\Authenticated Users:(I)(F) <----

BUILTIN\Administrators:(I)(F)

NT AUTHORITY\INTERACTIVE:(I)(F) <------------

NT AUTHORITY\SERVICE:(I)(F)

BUILTIN\Guests:(I)(RX)

 

Successfully processed 1 files; Failed processing 0 files/CODE]

 

 

I'll be quite honest, I'm dubious to your claims in this thread. You can Ad Hominem as much as you like, but it still does not change the fact you haven't provided any evidence. Look, [i]you didn't even notice[/i] that the image I linked earlier was for the SWTOR executable and not the launcher. If you can't even pick up on that small bit of detail, how do you expect for anyone (let alone little old average PC user joe bloggs like myself) to believe you?

 

I even have doubts at this point that you know how the launcher reads and writes multiple files at the same time, hence your sluggish storage performance while it filechecks etc when on Bitraider. I even doubt you uninstalled it.

 

Yeaahhh I'm not even talking about bitraider anymore. Now who is going around in circles? And of course I noticed your screen shot was of the swtor executable because that's what we were talking about. Stop assuming. Do you understand that launcher.exe "launches" swtor.exe? And swtor.exe is the process that [i]is[/i] the game? And because the launcher was elevated, so is swtor.exe? I don't understand what proof of that you need. Its right there on your machine. Process Explorer or even Task Manager (at least if you're using Windows 10) can show you that its running in an elevated state. Again, not difficult to understand.

 

You're grasping at straws and not getting the key concept here. When you click "yes" to the UAC prompt, you're granting administrative rights to the launcher which passes it on to anything else it executes, including swtor.exe. The ONLY time the launcher should feasibly need administrative rights is to patch when the game is installed to the program files folder. That's it! No other time is necessary. It certainly does not need to execute swtor.exe with elevated rights. If you want further proof that this game doesn't need administrator rights to funciton, https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/42747/how-do-i-stop-the-launcher-bringing-up-the-uac-prompt-every-time follow these instructions for whatever flavor of windows you're running. The shim will prevent the launcher from requesting elevation.

 

Edit: If you're using Windows 10, instead of using 2000sp3 compatibility fix, use only ForceAdminAccess combatibility fix. Despite its name, its not actually forcing admin rights, instead its using UAC virtualization to redirect protected access to the user profile.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc766024(v=ws.10).aspx

http://sourcedaddy.com/windows-7/uac-virtualization.html

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mrsnrub/2010/08/11/uac-virtualization-allowing-standard-users-to-update-a-system-protected-area/

Edited August 28, 2017 by Darimund

[Transcendent]

*snip* waffle waffle can't provide you with evidence because I don't know how to.

 

I mean, that's all you needed to say. If you're unable to provide evidence, then the whole premise of this thread is a moot point.

[Darimund]

I mean, that's all you needed to say. If you're unable to provide evidence, then the whole premise of this thread is a moot point.

 

Okay, I'll hold your hand since you're unable to do this yourself.

 

Launcher after UAC prompt - http://imgur.com/kDRVtyn

swtor after executed by the launcher - http://imgur.com/xgej0Dt

 

Launcher with shim installed - http://imgur.com/MmIFbBm

swtor after executed from shimmed launcher - http://imgur.com/cxtRH0x

[Rion_Starkiller]

for reference I have a i7-2700k

 

^I found your problem.