Add Starfighter Mode Without Gunships And Bombers,so it would be Gsf "Dog fight".

[Xarko]

I thinks bombers are ok, but yes you could make GSF better by simply removing things. Remove burst laser, we all know its broken and remove rail guns to "fix" team deathmatch mode. There will never ever be any updates or balancing anyway.

[caederon]

I thinks bombers are ok, but yes you could make GSF better by simply removing things. Remove burst laser, we all know its broken and remove rail guns to "fix" team deathmatch mode.

So, let's say that those exact changes happened.

 

Removing railguns in TDM means no Ion Railgun, which means that heaps of bombers piled up in one of the many areas they tend to pile have now become largely impossible to dislodge. At best, you are suddenly looking at TDMs where nobody can or will move out of bomber nests. You've also removed Burst Lasers, so not only have you removed the only two reliable tools (BLC and Slug Railgun) that can kill a Type 1 Bomber with Charged Plating, but you have also removed the best 'dogfighting' laser. BLC is really the only one that can deliver good performance at short range in turning fights (aka 'dogfights'). How does this help 'fix' TDM? Your changes have created an environment where it is extremely hard to kill anything, anywhere on the map. It certainly does not encourage or facilitate more 'dogfighting.'

 

For Domination matches, you've generously only removed BLC... so what does that do? Well, on the smaller side of the scale it means that the Type 1 Gunship no longer has any close-range defense or offense and can no longer effectively fight to hold a node in close. This is a skill not enough players practice anyway, so maybe in the grand scheme of things it's not a huge loss except for those who actually -do- engage in that sort of flying to win games for their teams. It also means that the Type 3 Gunship's close-fighting abilities are compromised, though it does at least have Cluster Missiles for that. Both are weaker now against scouts/strikes, and in the case of the T1G, that weakness is magnified quite a lot. "Good," you may say. Well, with a weaker T1G that is now very vulnerable to pressure, you will have considerably less Ion Railgun support which you may recall is essential to keeping Bombers in check. Ion Railgun is the only reliable means of clearing out bomber munitions, with the added benefit of weakening shields of whatever it happens to hit. So you've made Bomber spam stronger.

 

Removing BLC also has a massive effect on the Type 2 Scout. In Domination, when an area is free of mines and drones (usually because they have been Ion'd but also when a Scout beats the Bomber to a node) the T2S is a primary Bomber-killer. It is really the only reliable ship for killing Type 1 Bombers with Charged Plating in areas with difficult sight-lines like Kuat Mesas B or Lost Shipyards C, where the Bombers can use line-of-sight to keep away from direct railgun fire. So you've again made Bomber spam a much stronger tactic by removing a primary tool for ridding yourself of them. Was this your intent?

 

BLC is really the only laser that you could classify as a 'dogfighting' weapon. It has good accuracy at high deflection angles, meaning you can fire it off-center and still hope to hit. All of the other lasers require you to have your nose on the target, and your aim centered, to have a good chance of hitting. Complicating this more, the other short range lasers (Light Laser Cannon and Rapid Fire Lasers) both require that you have prolonged time on target to do significant damage. This isn't going to happen with any ship that isn't sitting still, and ships in a dogfight don't sit still.

 

Your changes, which may seem simple and appealing ("get rid of the stuff that most often kills me") have far-reaching consequences that would make the game far more Bomber-centric, which in my opinion would make it worse. They would not in any way help to make it more of a 'dogfighting' game, which is a phrase that I'd love people to define when they call for it because I'm not convinced they even know what they are asking for.

 

- Despon

[Xarko]

("get rid of the stuff that most often kills me")

 

Not gonna pretend I read all that projecting. I dont get killed by burst lasers or rail guns, I get killed by my own mistakes and lack of focus, usually go with 2 death or less. Ive been here for a quite some time. Yes, removing the most broken stuff wouldnt make GSF perfect, or even good, but it would still be better than this.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Xarko

[AlrikFassbauer]

I must say that this "dogfighting" (what an awful word, by the way !) is what actually had drawn me intom GSF, because that was the only mode available in X-Wing, TIE Fighter, XvT and X-Wing Alliance (apart from that mines, and launching missiles at capital ships doesn't count) and I quite enjoyed that.

 

I remember playing a strike fighter, dying all of the time, then switching to the ranged ship (Gunship), because in ALL games, no matter which genre, I prefer long-range classes, especially in offline RPGs.

 

After I had switched over to that, and finally could make myself useful instead of dying all of the time, I read angry calls and cries over the chat window of people (like me) who were using totally overpowered gunships. I felt guilty, because I had drained the fun out of them, because I could finally do some kills, but they weren't able to see where that came from or perform good enough evasive actions.

 

So, for me, this was a really bad moment : U felt completely totally useless until I unsed "my" gunship, but as soon as I did so, I got (implicitely) shouted at [because the chat entries were not mentioning my name but my ship type, then] for ruining the game for others.

 

I felt guilty, and I had a miserable moment for the rest of the play time.

 

Knowing that I'll totally suck on everything else but the Gunship that's one underlying, worse reason for me not to play GSF anymore : I don't want to ruin other people's fun. That's an ethical thing for me. In my opinion, it is unethical to ruin other people's fun just to boost the own ego.

 

I knew you wouldn't understand my reasoning, as I always do when I explain to other people how I thing (around too many corners and far too deep anyway), so I never posted this so far.

 

In the end, I still long for balanced "dogfighting". But knowing that I'd melt within the range of a scout within 2-3 seconds without knowing why, and melting AS A scout within seconds, too, I won't play GSF anymore. It's not fun for me, and I don't want to take the fun away from Newbies (Veterans are hardened, they are an entirely different thing).

 

I'm just too strange for most people with my thoughts.

[caederon]

I don't want to ruin other people's fun.

No matter how balanced a PvP game is, you will be ruining other people's fun by winning or by outperforming a person in a way that is meaningful to them even if it is not reflected on the scoreboard.

 

No matter how balanced a sport or any competitive game is, you will be ruining other people's fun by winning or by outperforming a person in a way that is meaningful to them even if it is not reflected on the scoreboard.

 

That's an ethical thing for me. In my opinion, it is unethical to ruin other people's fun just to boost the own ego.

Is all ruination of fun solely in service of boosting someone's personal ego?

 

In a team game, you are part of a group. You have an implicit responsibility to help your team succeed by performing well. If you perform well, you may ruin other people's fun. Does that mean that helping your team to succeed is, in your worldview, an act born of aggrandizing one's personal ego? Or is there another motivation (like, say, 'wanting to help your team') that could be driving this constant ruination of fun? Or, is helping your team to succeed then unethical?

 

What role does the fun being had by your teammates play in this equation? Is there justification, ethically, for increasing the amount of fun that they are having by ruining the fun that others are having? Is there a point of balance where your efforts add more net fun to the overall player pool than they subtract from it at which it becomes ethically acceptable to continue in such ruinous ways?

 

<stuff about gunships>

There will always be players who complain about a given ship class, and there will always be players who will shout others down with or without any justification other than 'they feel like it.' People are awful. Welcome to humanity.

 

- Despon

Edited August 19, 2017 by caederon

[Verain]

I don't want to ruin other people's fun. That's an ethical thing for me. In my opinion, it is unethical to ruin other people's fun just to boost the own ego.

 

Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat. If you really believe this, you should simply not be in a game mode where the objective of the game is to shove hot metal and coherent plasma through your opponents, making them explode into the void of space. There's a ton of game modes where your excellent play transfers into a more enjoyable experience for a variety of players surrounding you, and if you don't play excellently, everyone has a worse time than if you did- that's actually the main game mode of MMOs, this one included.

 

This is truly one of the craziest things I've ever read on a pvp forum.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Verain

[SeCKSEgai]

Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat. If you really believe this, you should simply not be in a game mode where the objective of the game is to shove hot metal and coherent plasma through your opponents, making them explode into the void of space. There's a ton of game modes where your excellent play transfers into a more enjoyable experience for a variety of players surrounding you, and if you don't play excellently, everyone has a worse time than if you did- that's actually the main game mode of MMOs, this one included.

 

This is truly one of the craziest things I've ever read on a pvp forum.

 

I'm just reminded of those typical one-sided matches where its pretty clear I can utterly destroy every opposing player with minimal effort. Sure, I can obliterate everyone, but doing so gives them little incentive to return. I don't get a rush from beating up on players that lack the ability to fight back.

 

Of course we all know that some players will happily decimate inferior pilots relentlessly. If there were more people there really would be nothing wrong with that - but there aren't.

[phalczen]

So, for me, this was a really bad moment : U felt completely totally useless until I unsed "my" gunship, but as soon as I did so, I got (implicitely) shouted at [because the chat entries were not mentioning my name but my ship type, then] for ruining the game for others.

 

So, what you are saying is, that you adapted to the meta, which you admit fits with your general playstyle in RPGs, and when that was called out by people grumpy about what the meta is, you decided to deprive yourself? OK.

 

The problem isn't that you were ruining anyone's fun. See, its not about YOU. Its a problem with the meta itself. Maybe someday it will change. But in the meantime, you can choose to play the meta or you can choose to play something else.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat.

 

I don't think you understood me.

 

In my context, "fun" means that people would be able to have positive experiences with even competitive games. Like getting a few kills. like survival. I believe that it is a good feeling for an underdog - or for a Newbie - to survive the assault of an veteran. Or, in the cvase of Newbies, to survive the attack of anyone.

 

Getting a few kills in GSF is something GREAT for a Newbie - given the fact that a Newbie nearly never gets a kill against a vet. Because vets are so much more experiernced and have so much better equipped ships. I bet that a Newbie wouldn't even get a kill against a vet in a stock ship. I'm sure of that, because the determining factor is not only skill, but also experience.

 

Among those positive experiences would be surviving that onslaught, too. To get killed by Gunships isn't nice for those who don't know how Gunships work.

 

Competition is literally and without exception the point of player versus player combat.

 

Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ? You are placing it so as if I was the culprit, and if I was the one slaughtering them. I was only using a Gunship, to be finally be able to be contributing to the competition, but when I was finally competitive, I got yelled at, how unfair Gunships are.

 

 

What I alweays see here is that great disconnect between the problems of Newbies and the problems of Veterans. A disconnect, so wide that I just cannot bridge it. It's as if people have amnesia of their time as Newbies or were so good at that time that they were able to be like a vet.

 

I don't know where this comes from, but it is everywhere : The higher skilled people become, for example in RL jobs, the more they forget the problems they had as newcomers. This phenomenon is everywhere. It seems to be like some sort of upgrading the own memory, which includes orgetting past experiences - and especially bad experiences, in which they were the "bads" themselves.

 

I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.

Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.

[caederon]

Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ?

Because people do not always (or often) behave rationally. They do not consider the broad scope of the game mechanics and how they interact with each other, then form a reasoned position on what is or is not a good mechanic. They make no effort to think of the consequences of removing one mechanic or another. Some people are even deliberately attempting to agitate other players despite knowing their arguments are not based in reality.

 

Here is a 'greatest hits package' of gunship complaints:

• Gunship pilots are cowards
  
• Gunship pilots lack skill
  
• Gunships are OP
  
• There is no way to stop a group of Gunships
  
• Hax!
  

_

If it was really necessary I could dig up threads as citations for these and beyond. I think we've all seen it enough. Plenty of insults are levied at Gunship pilots (who, incidentally, are often also Scout, Strike, and Bomber pilots depending on the match) and absolutely zero of them come from a point of rational thinking.

 

The people who are not specifically trolling others descend into this crap because they want something to pin their frustrations on and/or can't accept their own deficiencies. They don't present detailed, sensible arguments based in reality, they just spew out bile. The only reason I respond to any of it is that there is a chance people will come upon these forums and if they happen to have critical thinking skills, they will see a reasoned, evidence based counter-argument.

 

Btw, despite being someone well known for flying gunships, I wrote a guide on how to kill them so people could learn how to deal with the source of their frustration more productively.

 

You are placing it so as if I was the culprit, and if I was the one slaughtering them. I was only using a Gunship, to be finally be able to be contributing to the competition, but when I was finally competitive, I got yelled at, how unfair Gunships are.

Do you take everything everyone says everywhere as having equal value?

 

It is literally your job in GSF to slaughter enemy players. That is why you are there. Blowing them up is an intrinsic and inextricable part of the experience.

 

What I alweays see here is that great disconnect between the problems of Newbies and the problems of Veterans. A disconnect, so wide that I just cannot bridge it. It's as if people have amnesia of their time as Newbies or were so good at that time that they were able to be like a vet.

In the last seven months, I have flown 100+ games in pure stock ships, no upgrades, no changes, no nothing. I specifically did this to simulate the new player experience from both a gear and matchmaking perspective.

 

I have literally made

detailing how someone with no gear can contribute effectively in a match.

 

Does this show a disconnect with the new player experience?

 

I was not good when I was new. I was frequently blown up. I hated it, I did not enjoy being blown up or being prevented from contributing to my team's success. I decided that the solution was to learn why I was being blown up, then practice the skills that would enable me to avoid being blown up.

 

I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.

Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.

You are assuming good faith efforts on the part of all players to learn the game. There are a significant number of 'players' in present-day GSF matches who have no interest in learning. They are there because GSF is an efficient vehicle for gaining CXP, and even if they just go AFK and wait out the match, they will get their points.

 

GSF undoubtedly needs better in-game tutorial materials, but the players who actually want to succeed can overcome that with a little effort and direction to the right resources.

 

- Despon

Edited August 20, 2017 by caederon

[Verain]

I don't think you understood me.

 

is that even possible

 

To get killed by Gunships isn't nice for those who don't know how Gunships work.

 

It should have a salutary effect on their desire to understand what is going on besides directly under their nose. You were helping them learn!

 

Then why did they rant against me and the Gunships in that match, then ?

 

I know this sounds a bit novel, but hear me out: players will whine when you beat them.

They will do so with whatever tools are available. They will weaponize words to try to make you feel bad, because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle a loss, and they want you to feel bad too. They will blame game balance, premades, ship requisition, component balance, that you've practiced more than them, literally anything they can pick up and use as a cudgel.

 

That doesn't mean that the game is perfectly balanced, or that matchmaker is perfect, or that double premades are a delight to fly against. It does mean that you need to put into context what they are saying instead of parsing it literally and mostly uncritically. I've been soundly beaten across a zillion matches in a zillion different video games, and the only times I can recall logging over to complain to the other person was when they were in some manner of ToS violation (aka actually and really cheating, not just overperforming, and that has never happened to me in any of SWTOR). While you can't control what offends other people, their offense-taking is often just another weapon deployed in a lifelong or at least gamelong war to get their way.

 

I bet their entire team didn't log over and cry about the fact that you contributed meaningfully in a game, I bet it was a few people who have been conditioned that they can get their way by creating negative emotions in others.

 

Don't be controlled by them, deliver them railslugs at high velocity. Or whatever it is you can do to help the team. If you were on a bomber, they'd complain that you are playing a no skill ship that they can't even get close to, fight like a man. If you were on a scout and hunting them down like blimps, they'd complain that you need a ship with a good turning rate and cooldowns to be good. We've had people walk into this forum and complain about strike fighters because missile locks are too good. There's literally no limit as to what people will complain about.

 

Just say vae victus and ignore them if it bothers you.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Verain

[SeCKSEgai]

 

I don't know where this comes from, but it is everywhere : The higher skilled people become, for example in RL jobs, the more they forget the problems they had as newcomers. This phenomenon is everywhere. It seems to be like some sort of upgrading the own memory, which includes orgetting past experiences - and especially bad experiences, in which they were the "bads" themselves.

 

I see this disconnect here as well. Both in PvE and in PvP. People rant about "bads" not knowing what to do - with in PvE even sometimes forgetting that certain skills, which the ranters take for granted, and not received until a certain level.

Or Newbies simply needing some time to learn.

 

This is basically why I've bothered posting in the GSF forums the past few days. I don't get upset at the new folk who can't be expected to be fully competent from the get go, there's a huge learning curve and "gearing" deficit. On the other hand, I do see vets as at least partially culpable. We're already aware that GSF hasn't been popular for some time and that it's community is not particularly large. While some may disagree, I'd argue that we lose most new potential pilots in their first few matches.

 

I would even go as far to say that I don't enjoy the majority of my matches. It's pretty hard to convince new people how "great" GSF is when you're not even convinced yourself. However, its those even and competitive matches I enjoy, it's like completing an hm or nim raid the first time and winning a piece of gear to boot.

 

Last night I got excited as I saw a lot of familiar names on both sides. Despite it ending in our defeat, I was still happy and wanted more. But that was it, just one match and people had left. The night before there were a handful of us hoping for a pop fairly late. Luckily someone on the other side was eventually able to put together some people and we got two pops. My side lost both, but my side put up quite the fight and made them earn each win.

 

I have never forgotten what it was like to be that newbie who rarely had a good time in GSF. I just wish more of us remembered so there would be even more of us now.