Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[Pansophist]

There are a lot of good points being made, but please don't forget...

 

Whichever side of the fence you are on (those who think slicing deserved to be nerfed or removed from the game entirely, or those who preferred it remain in the game but still needed a nerf), please at least come to agree on the fact that BioWare handled this poorly.

 

The reason a majority of us are upset is not due to the lost profits. Honestly, I could care less. I previously made more using space missions, and I still do.

 

The reason most of us are upset is due to the knee-jerk reaction BioWare made, followed by a lack of communication.

 

The lack of communication is the real issue here. And it's not just located in this particular sub-forum. Check out the classes sub-forum, where Bounty Hunters aren't even able to finish their quest lines. Check out the PvP forums. Hundred+ page threads, and no response from BioWare.

 

I understand that, due to the holidays, some understaffing may have occurred. However, Dec. 20th was the planned release date and I imagine that a company would prepare for such a thing, especially given how many pre-orders they had.

 

In order for this MMO to truly succeed in its goals, there has to be at least some effort made on BioWare's behalf in establishing communication with their players.

 

Even if you don't understand our arguments for or against slicing, economics points or casual vs hardcore points, please understand that lack of communication is a major issue.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Pansophist

[Satene]

Well duh yes, you GATHER the credits. Did others on the board ever doubt that?? It's what slicers do - slice into safes and get money and stuff. I don't do missions because it's a waste of time and money. Put 300c in for a mission and get back 50c - hmmm... geee... something's a bit off here I believe my dear Watson...

 

Missions DO get you one VERY useful thing. Skillup points sometimes 2 at a mission.

So here I am in hostile territory and there is this lockbox. It takes skill 90 to open. I have skill 87. Grrrr. The nearest lockboxes I can slice for skill points are 2 planets away. (Ignoring the instant travel crystal ball )

 

Off goes my trusty robot (the ship can take care of itself for a while, I hope) and 2 missions 10 min and a few (~1000) credits later I can hack this lockbox. The box only has ~400 credits in it but the next one will have more.

 

This actually happened to me in beta which is how I stumbled across missions to begin with

[Dorkfrey]

hmmm... gee... Mr. Forbes, let's not forget that YOU'RE solely dependant on a SPECIALIZED market. Whereas the gatherers are not. I can gather herbs (for scripters and alchemy) and sell them for a good profit ALL THE TIME. Profit will always be coming in no matter what. YOU on the other hand, MUST find the correct person who can A) use your crafted item; B)actually NEED your crafted item; C) Hope to god when the next patch comes out, your little trinket you created isn't obsolete due to new items, levels, etc..., being introduced into the game. As for us, there will ALWAYS be chanters and scripters that need to lvl their profession that will ALWAYS NEED our mats. So stick that in your pipe and smoke that rofl

 

Thought I should remind you on that wee tiny factoid

 

What, other guilds didn't have regular potion/flask requirements, and I bought ores to JC into gems and sell for a profit?

 

Seriously - I made easy money after a while, as did the majority of crafters on my server. We didn't lose money to farmers. They got what they thought was a fair pay, we made profit on that.

 

And yeah, when you can make that many potions/flasks that easily, god bless some of those addons... you'd rake it in.

 

As I've said - I've been to the reverse end of the spectrum and been proper hardcore. I could go AFK an hour or more, and my addons still wouldn't have finished grinding for me.

 

I know full well the scale of the spectrum. But - by all means, try and poke holes in my arguement to justify yours. It fails, but at least you're trying. And we all know trying is what counts, not coming first.

 

I'd rather play a game this time, instead of running a second business. Hence my contributions to not only *this* thread, but the previous, and several before it. I want a game.

 

EDIT: When I say "crafters" I mean, people who bought raw materials and sold at a profit. There were a bunch of us, from small end to my scale. I don't mean the gibbering idiots who thought that selling something for less than we could sell to vendors for.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dorkfrey

[Outsiide]

Hey this losing credits sounds familiar oh yea just like every other gathering skill, so why should it be any different? I make no money out of scavenging or underworld trading for that matter and I don't complain that I don't get some lock-box full of credits that come make me rich overnight. What bioware has done is to begin balancing the economy.

 

Now the slicers can still make money from the cybertech skems they sell to people (currently on Nadd's Sarcophagus they ain't worth much at all). So I suppose the only way you can pass this is to sack up and stop whining about the easy money.

 

sincerely seconds.

[DarthSublimitas]

You push a button and dude fetches every 20 to 30 min I'm missing how this is a time sink and not just passing by your computer screen. I too can now gather and stand in front of the AH and look at my bank account (in game lol).

 

I don't just gather, I gather to gain money to gain control of the market. Which is better controlled by dealing in gathering. For you to make my equal profit everything you buy from me must yield double gain everytime. I sold it to you for 10k you sold it for 12k, my profit 10k - time/cost, yours 2k from a 10k cost, I bet I made more than a 2k profit there. This isn't hard, crafting makes less in the long run and relies on the prices created by gathering. You might have gathering slaves who sell you your stuff, I'm the guy buying the entire market out and repricing it. enjoy your slice of the pie while I choose between pies to eat. It is like you are Magneto and I'm say Galactus or you are Optimus Prime and I'm Unicron.

 

Wait until crafting requires raid style mats to make anything profitable, that's when crafting gets real fun.

 

Embrace your destiny, only through me (the supplier of the mats) can you craft your trinkets...

[Zoldor]

There are a lot of good points being made, but please don't forget...

 

Whichever side of the fence you are on (those who think slicing deserved to be nerfed or removed from the game entirely, or those who preferred it remain in the game but still needed a nerf), please at least come to agree on the fact that BioWare handled this poorly.

 

Fully agree, thats my biggest fear is their reaction here will set the standard on their reaction to anything. That beind said over doing it when a minor tweak could have fixed it. It shows a small lack of thought in the process that should determine how to handle these things. Honestly i think Slicing nerf was to slow down the game to generate more real world dollars.

 

still biggest piss of is the HORRIBLE patch notes. Who *********** wrote that? A little more than vague wording would be awesome. examples

General

 

Rewards for winning Warzones have been increased.

Warzone completion rewards have been decreased.

 

The Ancient Pylons now spawn enemies at the correct intervals.

 

Slicing

 

Rewards from Slicing have been reduced to bring them into balance with other skills.

Adjusted incorrect values for medium slicing boxes.

[Pansophist]

Probably developers...I'm a developer myself, and I do the same thing My comments and notes are absolutely terrible for anyone but me to read.

[Outsiide]

hmmm... gee... Mr. Forbes, let's not forget that YOU'RE solely dependant on a SPECIALIZED market. Whereas the gatherers are not. I can gather herbs (for scripters and alchemy) and sell them for a good profit ALL THE TIME. Profit will always be coming in no matter what. YOU on the other hand, MUST find the correct person who can A) use your crafted item; B)actually NEED your crafted item; C) Hope to god when the next patch comes out, your little trinket you created isn't obsolete due to new items, levels, etc..., being introduced into the game. As for us, there will ALWAYS be chanters and scripters that need to lvl their profession that will ALWAYS NEED our mats. So stick that in your pipe and smoke that rofl

 

Thought I should remind you on that wee tiny factoid

 

Little thing to add you can only acquire 1 crafting skill which means they, the customers typically pick up the gathering skills that produce materials for their crafting skill which in turn renders people like you somewhat useless.

[DarthSublimitas]

Missions DO get you one VERY useful thing. Skillup points sometimes 2 at a mission.

So here I am in hostile territory and there is this lockbox. It takes skill 90 to open. I have skill 87. Grrrr. The nearest lockboxes I can slice for skill points are 2 planets away. (Ignoring the instant travel crystal ball )

 

Off goes my trusty robot (the ship can take care of itself for a while, I hope) and 2 missions 10 min and a few (~1000) credits later I can hack this lockbox. The box only has ~400 credits in it but the next one will have more.

 

This actually happened to me in beta which is how I stumbled across missions to begin with

 

You make a valid point - no doubt but I'm POOR and if I send my slaves (I'm Sith, leave it alone.. lol) out on a mission and they FAIL, I'm out that money. I would rather slice in the field, do quests and then when I have enough money, I'll do more missions. I have arch and scav so I can hit a lot of different things in one area.

[Dorkfrey]

Hey this losing credits sounds familiar oh yea just like every other gathering skill, so why should it be any different? I make no money out of scavenging or underworld trading for that matter and I don't complain that I don't get some lock-box full of credits that come make me rich overnight. What bioware has done is to begin balancing the economy.

 

Now the slicers can still make money from the cybertech skems they sell to people (currently on Nadd's Sarcophagus they ain't worth much at all). So I suppose the only way you can pass this is to sack up and stop whining about the easy money.

 

sincerely seconds.

 

Honestly, if you're losing money other than an initial say - 20k investment into things to get you rolling, you're doing something wrong. Drastically wrong.

 

Unless of course, you're now doing what I am - which is a self inflicted choice, that's to make obscure and shiny recipes you want. That few else will ever notice. Like the offhands in Artifice. They have NO market here right now, since they don't add directly to people's PEW PEW visibly. And yes - making that silly tanky offhand for your guardian and having to RE something 30 effing times just for the *right* blue upgrade, not just the Purple....

 

There are many good recipes out there that people want. Of course, since the slicing nerf, there's no where near the credits to go around... but that's another story. Actually, that's the thread of THIS story. But carry on.

 

The slicing nerf, has hit everyone. Badly. Whether you are in a position to feel it or not.

[DarthSublimitas]

What, other guilds didn't have regular potion/flask requirements, and I bought ores to JC into gems and sell for a profit?

 

Seriously - I made easy money after a while, as did the majority of crafters on my server. We didn't lose money to farmers. They got what they thought was a fair pay, we made profit on that.

 

And yeah, when you can make that many potions/flasks that easily, god bless some of those addons... you'd rake it in.

 

As I've said - I've been to the reverse end of the spectrum and been proper hardcore. I could go AFK an hour or more, and my addons still wouldn't have finished grinding for me.

 

I know full well the scale of the spectrum. But - by all means, try and poke holes in my arguement to justify yours. It fails, but at least you're trying. And we all know trying is what counts, not coming first.

 

I'd rather play a game this time, instead of running a second business. Hence my contributions to not only *this* thread, but the previous, and several before it. I want a game.

 

EDIT: When I say "crafters" I mean, people who bought raw materials and sold at a profit. There were a bunch of us, from small end to my scale. I don't mean the gibbering idiots who thought that selling something for less than we could sell to vendors for.

 

Oddly enough, all kidding aside, I most gather/craft so I can have fun doing it AND make some stuff for my self. Money on the side is fun as well too but EVERYTHING in this game gets exponentially more expensive so I have to actually do something to make more money instead of just play to have fun - I'm in MMO Hell rofl... I'm tired of grinding - did that in wow and rift - this game was SUPPOSED to be different. But what do I know - after all these years playing MMO's i'm still a noob

[MnMrMustard]

I make no money out of scavenging or underworld trading for that matter and I don't complain that I don't get some lock-box full of credits that come make me rich overnight.

 

You, my friend, need to be playing the GTN more! I'm sitting on 300k right now at level 22, most of which was made by selling stuff on the GTN, materials from gathering, crew missions, and even make a killing from gathering missions!

 

This was all before the patch. No one buys anything now, materials or anything else...

Edited December 30, 2011 by MnMrMustard

[DarthSublimitas]

You, my friend, need to be playing the GTN more! I'm sitting on 300k right now at level 22, most of which was made by selling stuff on the GTN, materials from gathering, crew missions, and even make a killing from gathering missions!

 

This was all before the patch. No one buys anything now, materials or anything else...

 

yep, like i said, kill one side who are making the money, they won't have it to give to the other - tis truly a sad, sad day in Whoville...

[Satene]

... I'm the guy buying the entire market out and repricing it.

 

 

And I'm the girl who is quite happy to let you buy all my stuff at the price I wanted. I then notice the stuff is selling faster than I can gather it so I raise my price a bit to balance. You are welcome and encouraged to buy all that stuff including mine and we do it again till the unavoidable (and governments have been trying for a long time to avoid) power of the market finds it's natural balance.

 

thus all 3 of us, the crafter, the broker (you), and the gatherer (me and others) all profit.

 

Unless the final customer no longer has enough money to buy the crafted items. But wait. The market will easily re-balance for that too. Money is just another item in the supply/demand equation.

[Shuemue]

Guaranteed losses aren't fun, Bioware.

 

Between needless nerfs and an unstable client, I'm starting to revise my, "Bioware knows RPGs" mantra.

[Satene]

I don't mean the gibbering idiots who thought that selling something for less than we could sell to vendors for.

 

Those aren't idiots. Those are sheep begging to be fleeced. Sometimes I would even put them on the AH rather than doing the really quick vendor sell for profit.

[Dorkfrey]

Oddly enough, all kidding aside, I most gather/craft so I can have fun doing it AND make some stuff for my self. Money on the side is fun as well too but EVERYTHING in this game gets exponentially more expensive so I have to actually do something to make more money instead of just play to have fun - I'm in MMO Hell rofl... I'm tired of grinding - did that in wow and rift - this game was SUPPOSED to be different. But what do I know - after all these years playing MMO's i'm still a noob

 

You guys really don't get it.

 

I'm ON the side of the Slicers.

 

I want them to have their free money, because in turn, everyone benefits.

 

He buys something, because he has his spending money (which as far as he can tell is HUGE- it isn't, but that's another story), that in turn gets someone else spending because they're not fighting for credits, that then goes to another guy, who buys something else, because it's pretty (or girl - guys aren't the only one's who find things pretty), who then in turn, buys something off of me, because, they can - because they're selling stuff cheaply.

 

I don't want a second gosh darnED JOB, I want a game, where I can make stuff and level and pew pew or tank or whatever, and enjoy. And my Slicer can mimble around and do the stupid things he does, and get by, and credits abound between all.

 

Because *my* slicer, well, he covers his bills with it, he can pay for his repairs, and his speeder, and skills, and the world is good. He doesn't need to grind, or farm, and the people like me who like crafting can buy YOUR mats and then sell.. and make more recipes and play around with the professions.

 

Seriously... there's nothing more ANTI-fun than, someone saying:

 

"Man, you know, I'd love to be able to buy that, but, my skills cost this much!!! >---------O---------< and I've only got this, and I've a Speeder to get yet."

 

It's like, I had my speeder well covered, but - the vast majority DIDN'T, and it impacts this game badly.

 

Can't you see that?

 

EDIT: I didn't say GOSH DARNED JOB. Love this filter.

 

Edit 2: I can't effing stand my own typos.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dorkfrey

[MrFarnsworth]

Not really, you'd be one of the poor sob's I'd be paying part of the 4000g I spent daily on miners/harvesters to get stuff for me, that I'd turn into a 6000g a profit daily.

 

That is how crafting works.

 

You sell to me for say 10000c in SWTOR a stack, and I'll make 12000c a stack.

 

You'll be farming, I'll be selling.

 

That's how crafting works Sunshine. I've been there, done it, got the effing tweed and smoking jacket and retired.

 

Crafting doesn't lose money from buying from you. Rest assured of that.

 

We appreciate your hard graft immensely, and pay you for it. Don't for a second think we don't make more money than you. I've been there, done it and retired. Hence why I STOPPED grinding in WoW.

 

With no one buying however, because the market has stalled, fscks us all. (That's filechecks for all of you who know not Unix).

 

By the time I quit WoW, having too much of the "grind" I had fifteen people who would sell to me on a regular basis, I'd then turn that into something else that I'd sell for a PROFIT, and sell to regular buyers to stock their clan budgets, because I was able to provide on that kind of scale.

 

I really got tired of having a second damn job. Hence this - but no... Bioware wants us grinding and wants to invite Gold Sellers in. G-EFFING-G.

 

 

Agressive, but well written post. That's in fact how life works. Even if you think you're making decent money selling your product to a buyer, if that buyer turns it into something he is guaranteed to be making more money than you or he's gonna be bankrupt pretty damn soon.

[Satene]

I make no money out of scavenging or underworld trading...

 

 

Then you aren't doing it right. I make FAR more from scavenging than I ever could from slicing. (so far. I'm only 20 so who knows what bank vault I might get to slice in the future )

[Thanatosx]

Unless the final customer no longer has enough money to buy the crafted items. But wait. The market will easily re-balance for that too. Money is just another item in the supply/demand equation.

 

The difference is that this is an MMO and people can get commendations to get all the gear they really need because they have to save their few credits for the overpriced cost of repair, training, mounts and what other necessary money sinks might exist.

 

So, I don't agree it will necessarily easily re-balance, but perhaps it will, just for a lower price then you are actually able to make a profit on or that it will do so at a price where it would be better to just vendor the stuff.

 

All of which has happened in other MMO's and perhaps this will be just another one to follow the same recipes.

[Satene]

Little thing to add you can only acquire 1 crafting skill which means they, the customers typically pick up the gathering skills that produce materials for their crafting skill which in turn renders people like you somewhat useless.

 

Somebody's buying all our stuff. Why would slicers buy it if they don't also have a craft?

[Dorkfrey]

Somebody's buying all our stuff. Why would slicers buy it if they don't also have a craft?

 

Because many of them DID!

 

Instead of say Art/Arch/Th, they'd be Art/Arch/Slicer.

 

And would buy the remaining materials off of others.

 

Can't people see beyond their own simple characters?

 

EDIT:

 

It wasn't that these people had no other profession, they supplemented a profession with Slicer instead of ... craft, that they could then bring in, and do whatever with.

 

A *lot* of people had the gap to fill with another craft, but did it with Slicer, because it could give them enough financial freedom to pick and choose. NOW... Slicing is worthless for that financial freedom. It gives none. For those who say this is a good thing, you're short sighted beyond belief, and Bioware is worse for agreeing with you.

 

****, any number of MMO crafting vets could have told them that this was a bad decision, but they knew better in the same intrinsic way that SoE did. And any old gamers know where that decision lay. They don't have the balls to say they were right in the first place. Because saying you have balls risks losing face. They don't have face to lose. At least from where I'm sat. Because they folded like a crumple zone on a car, instead of realising that they'd created something which could have stood the test of time.

 

Edit 2: Truthfully, the ONLY thing we can take from this entire venture is that Bioware DO NOT have the mansacks. By that I mean balls, bollocks, ********s or even self conviction to even SPEAK about this.

 

They have learned the art of SoEfu, which anyone who knows their MMO history, will tell you is the ONE place you learn nothing from other than to IGNORE your paying base is foolish.

 

They've stuck their HEADS so FAR UP each others ARSES, that they couldn't hear rhyme or reason any more. Just wedge it a bit further and it'll all go away right?

 

Damn, I wish I could be that ashamed of my work. That I couldn't speak out. And still have a job. I'd love to be able to be so incompetent that I couldn't make something RIGHT, and then, just bury my head in the sand and it would go away.

 

And no, this time of year makes no difference. You make a change so SWEEPING, you could clearly effing talk about it. But they can't, or won't, or are ashamed to, because damn me, they dropped the ball, and NO ONE IS MAN ENOUGH TO SAY WE SCREWED UP. Even though by the sheer fact of saying that would actually guarantee you custom through future **** ups.. you're not BRAVE enough to admit your mistakes.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dorkfrey

[Satene]

You make a valid point - no doubt but I'm POOR and if I send my slaves (I'm Sith, leave it alone.. lol) out on a mission and they FAIL, I'm out that money. I would rather slice in the field, do quests and then when I have enough money, I'll do more missions. I have arch and scav so I can hit a lot of different things in one area.

 

Depending on what you call "rich" I am not. However your point is EXACTLY what I do. I GATHER credits from lockboxes and quests. Then sometimes send out my slave robot or my tank if I don't need him covering my back. When in the mood I will even track the lockbox credits and send out the slaves up to the limit of the credits sliced.

[Pansophist]

Somebody's buying all our stuff. Why would slicers buy it if they don't also have a craft?

 

I am/was a slicer.

 

Thing most people don't realize is, slicing was only really good for leveling up. At 50, it didn't scale very well (your repair costs alone are 40k+ depending on gear), and there were much better/faster ways to make money.

 

Slicing needed level caps. The problem with it, as I have stated numerous times, was the amount of level 10-30s bragging about how much money they had. This, in turn, made people bitter and angry and has developed into what you now see throughout this thread...a lot of anti-slicing people who don't understand the costs associated past level 40.

 

The only thing we used slicing for at 50, at least in my guild, was to foot repair costs for others, and it was useful because, well, you send them out during your runs, as long as you have 3-4 people doing it, then it covers most of the repair costs after a few hours.

 

Most people used slicing to pay for the ridiculously expensive training and repairs 35-50, then dropped it at 50 to opt for a more viable profession.

 

Granted, a lot of professions aren't exactly viable at the moment, Biochem being the popular choice [for viability] and UWT the popular choice for money.

 

However, at 50, I can easily see slicing being an option for those more casual players. It doesn't force them to continuously grind space missions (more lucrative than slicing PRE-NERF, by the way), it doesn't force them to treat an MMO like a second job. To contrast that point, however, a lot of people *want* the time sink an MMO provides. When I was in college, I played WoW ... a LOT. It WAS my timesink. When I started working 40-60 hours a week, I couldn't afford to play that much anymore.

 

This game, however, was supposed to cater to both crowds. Slicing allowed that (albeit it did need level caps and the medium lockboxes DID need adjustment).

Edited December 30, 2011 by Pansophist

[Satene]

Agressive, but well written post. That's in fact how life works. Even if you think you're making decent money selling your product to a buyer, if that buyer turns it into something he is guaranteed to be making more money than you or he's gonna be bankrupt pretty damn soon.

 

Though your statement is exactly correct it might be mis understood (as it often is in RL). That buyer turns it into something and then MUST sell it for more money then he spent (to me) or as you said he will be bankrupt in short order. He doesn't necessarily make more PROFIT than I do but he MUST sell it for more than the money he sent to me.

 

material 10 credits

crafter makes vest. Sells for 11 credits.

Profit 1 credit.

 

I bought the material for 8 credits

My profit 2 credits

 

The gatherer sold the material to me for 8 credits

His profit 8 credits.

 

In each transaction MORE money changed hands but the profit was LESS.

(note Profit. Not Profit/time)