Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[Ixalor]

I'm ok with that. More nodes for me

 

Dont mind~

[Kazzuk]

Slicing was OP in the sense that ALL crew skills are, you should NOT be able to send your minions out on missions that are a higher level than you are, period. Slicing did not and does not scale well, for your current level it was decent credits, not spectacular, just decent.

 

The issue was level 20s being able to get to 400 skill and run the level 50 missions... with level 50 scaled rewards.

 

Those could crit for 5-6K credits in a 30 - 45 minute mission if you got lucky (rare), normal was 2-3K.

 

However, this is average cash at level 50, people complaining had no clue what the issue was. It costs me at level 40 12K+ for a single repair bill, medpacks cost 20K, speederbike riding skill 2 costs 210K.... Trash mobs drop 200-300 credits each, whenever I send my companion to sell he gets between 7 and 9K just selling the grays... so if they made it across ALL professions where you can't level above your characters level it would have fixed slicing as well as any others they have not yet noticed have the exact same issue.

 

The nerf was not just missions either, it was all lockboxes everywhere. Right now, why would I even consider going out of my way to find a lockbox when I get more return just killing trash mobs? The nerf was too harsh and needs to be mostly rolled back and they really should consider not letting people level skills above their level to avoid these issues.

[Ixalor]

Slicing was OP in the sense that ALL crew skills are, you should NOT be able to send your minions out on missions that are a higher level than you are, period. Slicing did not and does not scale well, for your current level it was decent credits, not spectacular, just decent.

 

The issue was level 20s being able to get to 400 skill and run the level 50 missions... with level 50 scaled rewards.

 

Those could crit for 5-6K credits in a 30 - 45 minute mission if you got lucky (rare), normal was 2-3K.

 

However, this is average cash at level 50, people complaining had no clue what the issue was. It costs me at level 40 12K+ for a single repair bill, medpacks cost 20K, speederbike riding skill 2 costs 210K.... Trash mobs drop 200-300 credits each, whenever I send my companion to sell he gets between 7 and 9K just selling the grays... so if they made it across ALL professions where you can't level above your characters level it would have fixed slicing as well as any others they have not yet noticed have the exact same issue.

 

The nerf was not just missions either, it was all lockboxes everywhere. Right now, why would I even consider going out of my way to find a lockbox when I get more return just killing trash mobs? The nerf was too harsh and needs to be mostly rolled back and they really should consider not letting people level skills above their level to avoid these issues.

 

I did this and I was able to buy mounts for 3 people, myself being one. I also farmed hour hours on nodes MY level to do this. Not just clicking the mission tab, but WITH the mission tab.

[Pansophist]

You seem to assume that I haven't gotten to 50.

 

I actually think 50 is perfect where it is. Where everything is expensive and hard to afford.

 

You should have to work for your success, not just have it handed to you.

 

You claimed it took two days or less to get to 50. You're not 50. Stop trying to insinuate you are without lying. =/

 

Here's the quote:

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

Also:

I'm happy to see you're now aware and acknowledge that gathering, rather than sending your crew to do missions, is far and away the leading money maker with slicing... that's what your quoted link says. Does this mean you'll be preaching now too?

 

I'm sure the nodes on Tatooine will return, if indeed our random poster #865 is correct about them all being gone. Personally I think it's far more likely that we have a huge number of slicers who are now unable to click a button once every 40 minutes and make cash, so they are actually going out and doing some of the work now because they have a lot of points invested in slicing already.

 

 

Re-read my post. Perhaps I could have been more descriptive.

 

They removed the high yielding nodes from Tattoine and Illu. This inherently counters the argument presented that we can still make comparable profits by searching for lockboxes. And again, I'll point out that it's much more lucrative to do space missions for the time required. Hence, the 'gathering' aspect of the profession also got nerfed.

 

And if you don't believe it, go check it out yourself. Oh wait...if you're not 50 or a slicer you won't be able to check out the latter, and will get killed at the former.

 

Enjoy!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[LeperJack]

Maybe this will help.

 

In a real (modern) economy, you have: (highly simplified)

 

Raw materials. (self explanatory)

Finished goods. (products ready for the consumer to use)

Man hours. (time spent by individuals to gather materials of produce finished goods)

Currency. (an agreed upon medium that can be exchanged for any of the above.)

 

You buy man hours currency to gather materials.

You buy more man hours to convert those materials into finished goods.

You sell finished goods to consumers.

The consumers buy those finished goods by selling man hours.

 

Growth is limited by any of these factors. Take away man hours less is produced so you can't sell it. Take away currency and the rate of exchange is hampered by haggling and backorders as people wait to accumulate it to purchase. remove materials and your man hours produce nothing to sell.

 

SW:TOR doesn't have a "man hours" really. even time spent by the player and invested by crew missions are another variable that behaves differently than "man hours" would in the real world. It's more like a fiscal quarter that happens to be a different length of time for everyone involved.

 

Materials and finished goods have an easy analog in... materials and finished goods. (unsurprisingly)

 

Credits... Credits serve as both the man hours (as they produce materials, and finished goods, and via slicing could produce more of themselves to function as "man hours.") and the currency, which is what seems to be tripping people up.

 

The slicing nerf is having the same effect on the economy as if someone were to make it illegal to work more than 20 hours a week.

 

No money, no overtime, production is severely hampered, there's an initial glut of unsold goods on the market because no one buys, but that dwindles as less is produced to sell because of production, and less people are willing to buy because they have less money to spend. Even those with large amounts of money are in trouble as their fixed expenditures must still be met, and the finished goods they need are simply not available to buy, leading to rising prices, so you have not deflation but inflation in cost, as overall wealth goes down.

 

Yes, there is an initial glut of supply which makes you think "oh the market will adjust." What happens when you lose money on all the other gathering and crafting skills? Not like before when you lost it via incompetence and overspending, but because there is literally no one there buying your goods and finished products sell for less than the rtaw materials cost to produce?

 

Gold sellers, that's what happens. they realize they can make real money off of a fake economy that is floundering because of a lack of raw currency. Believe it or not, Gold farmers are excellent game economists--it helps them go where the real money is and stay in business.

 

Sound familiar? Check your server right now. That's what's happening.

 

An influx of raw credits is what is needed to motivate the economy, and to keep it going as it matures, and indeed a baseline return (minimum wage!) is what helps to standardize prices and prevent overinflation.

 

You have two choices: Slicing as a minimum wage mechanic that grants an influx of raw credits, or goldsellers who steal accounts, scam their customers and pollute the game with unregulated amounts of money as the influx of raw credits. you're going to have one or the other.

 

And before you start QQing, yeah, slicing was minimum wage. If you lost money gathering and crafting "then you are bad and should feel bad," as the meme goes. Your complaints are equivalent to the guy who mines gold in his back yard and presses it into toilet paper complaining that his car got repossessed while the McDonald's employee can go see a movie after he pays his rent and car payment.

 

You don't (and did not) have less earning potential, you have just far outspent the greater potential you had on things you didn't need.

Edited December 29, 2011 by LeperJack

[Pansophist]

You have two choices: Slicing as a minimum wage mechanic that grants an influx of raw credits, or goldsellers who steal accounts, scam their customers and pollute the game with unregulated amounts of money as the influx of raw credits. you're going to have one or the other.

 

You missed one choice some of these guys will hop all over if I fail to mention it.

 

The other choice is to spend the time required to produce credits. When starting out in end game content, you wipe a lot. This constitutes for high repair bills. Repair bills cost 40k (without even close to best in slot gear). So, when not doing end game, you spend that time farming for credits to pay for your stims, packs, and repair bills.

 

So, the third option is a farm fest. Which weeds out the casual players BioWare tried oh so hard to obtain.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Kazzuk]

I did this and I was able to buy mounts for 3 people, myself being one. I also farmed hour hours on nodes MY level to do this. Not just clicking the mission tab, but WITH the mission tab.

 

 

Yeah, because you ran around for hours and hours as you stated supplementing the missions that were higher level than you (if you ran them for hours and hours then you either chose ones that did not give a skillup on purpose or were running ones higher than your level) you were able to afford the cheep spederbike skill (the 40K one).... That is not what we are talking about here and no where near the amount of credits that was possible that caused the nerf.

 

Missions before the nerf at your level were usually risky as there is a high level of failure on them.... and they did not yield the returns some people are claiming here. We have hard evidence of this, it is a fact. Best I hoped for leveling my slicing to 400 was to break even on missions... now once I hit 400, chose nothing but rich level 5 missions and level 6 missions... that is where the cash was.. but yeah, I should not have been to run the 400 skill missions as they are 49-50 missions and I am only in my mid 40s.

 

People abused that and got to 3 companions at 20-25 ish and ran them back to back to back on as many alts as they could level... if they could not go past the level 25 missions it would not have been profitable for their time. in fact, it had a decent risk of not being profitable AT ALL.

[LeperJack]

You missed one choice some of these guys will hop all over if I fail to mention it.

 

The other choice is to spend the time required to produce credits. When starting out in end game content, you wipe a lot. This constitutes for high repair bills. Repair bills cost 40k (without even close to best in slot gear). So, when not doing end game, you spend that time farming for credits to pay for your stims, packs, and repair bills.

 

So, the third option is a farm fest. Which weeds out the casual players BioWare tried oh so hard to obtain.

 

Yeah, I did miss that one, sorta.

 

Your casual gamer is not going to count that as an option, and you will have casual gamers that will continue to play no matter what. He will look at what's going on and (like all other games on the market) either take a (functioning) slicing if it's available , or he's going to call up NiHaoCreditsdotcom and hand them his credit card number.

 

What I choose, and what many of the people here choose, and what the folks that quit choose isn't what I was pointing at. Functional slicing will drastically reduce the need for gold farmers to the point of it being unprofitable for them to operate.

 

Non-functioning slicing makes this MMO just like every other, where they can turn a buck off of someone, and believe me, they will.

[The_Archon]

They removed the high yielding nodes from Tattoine and Illu. This inherently counters the argument presented that we can still make comparable profits by searching for lockboxes. And again, I'll point out that it's much more lucrative to do space missions for the time required. Hence, the 'gathering' aspect of the profession also got nerfed.

 

I'm not sure I would argue that I need to make "comparable profits" after the nerf if I were a slicer. I think you'd be asking for another nerf.

 

And if you don't believe it, go check it out yourself. Oh wait...if you're not 50 or a slicer you won't be able to check out the latter, and will get killed at the former.

 

Enjoy![/color]

 

Nah, I worked for my creds.

 

Enjoy working for yours!

[Pansophist]

I'm not sure I would argue that I need to make "comparable profits" after the nerf if I were a slicer. I think you'd be asking for another nerf.

 

 

 

Nah, I worked for my creds.

 

Enjoy working for yours!

 

 

o_O What are you even saying here? I was pointing it out, that is all. Are you re-pointing-it-out in a different light?

 

I do *not* want slicing to be back where it was. I understand how some say it was balanced before, but I am of the mind that it needed a 40-50% nerf, not a 70% nerf (on the most profitable mission, 90% nerf overall).

 

You're not a slicer. That's the whole point. And your last statement kind of sums up 90% of the populace against slicing. Most of the crowd against it have not hit 50, do not understand even basic principles of economics, and just feel angry that they had to work for what they consider profits whereas slicers 'didn't'.

 

And as a heads up, I don't count farming UWT mats working for my creds. It's just ever so slightly more difficult than pressing that button once every 30 minutes. Should we nerf UWT now, or is that your profession? If it's yours, I'm sure you'll want to leave it alone.

 

Cheers.

 

Yeah, I did miss that one, sorta.

 

Your casual gamer is not going to count that as an option, and you will have casual gamers that will continue to play no matter what. He will look at what's going on and (like all other games on the market) either take a (functioning) slicing if it's available , or he's going to call up NiHaoCreditsdotcom and hand them his credit card number.

 

What I choose, and what many of the people here choose, and what the folks that quit choose isn't what I was pointing at. Functional slicing will drastically reduce the need for gold farmers to the point of it being unprofitable for them to operate.

 

Non-functioning slicing makes this MMO just like every other, where they can turn a buck off of someone, and believe me, they will.

 

Yes, I just dislike forcing casual players into having to spend extra money at gold/credit-farming websites just to feel like they can have a good time. It's quite sad. Those that do not mind shelling out a little extra every so often I'm sure fall into your two categories.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Quinnt]

The real issue with Slicing was that the crew missions were basically a zero-risk arbitrage game. Meaning, you could pay cash to obtain more cash with basically no risk. It's something that major investment banks do all the time, but there is always some level of risk attached to it.

 

For example, if you could pay $100 to get back $150, you would do it every time. That's basically what Slicing crew missions did. No economic system (in the real or game world) would support this....any such zero-risk opportunities are quickly corrected by the market one way or another.

 

However, by comparison, I don't see an issue with slicing lockboxes found randomly in the game world...there IS risk associated with those (you have to fight through mobs to get to them usually). Plus, you have to find them, and you can't sit around waiting for them to respawn all day (well you could, but it wouldn't be time efficient).

 

Slicing was simply a poorly thought out skill from the get-go. They needed to correct the zero-risk arbitrage; but in its place, they should add other attributes to the crew missions that add risk of loss but also add rewards. I'm sure there's a way to accomplish this.

[VioletZero]

The real issue with Slicing was that the crew missions were basically a zero-risk arbitrage game. Meaning, you could pay cash to obtain more cash with basically no risk. It's something that major investment banks do all the time, but there is always some level of risk attached to it.

 

For example, if you could pay $100 to get back $150, you would do it every time. That's basically what Slicing crew missions did. No economic system (in the real or game world) would support this....any such zero-risk opportunities are quickly corrected by the market one way or another.

 

However, by comparison, I don't see an issue with slicing lockboxes found randomly in the game world...there IS risk associated with those (you have to fight through mobs to get to them usually). Plus, you have to find them, and you can't sit around waiting for them to respawn all day (well you could, but it wouldn't be time efficient).

 

Slicing was simply a poorly thought out skill from the get-go. They needed to correct the zero-risk arbitrage; but in its place, they should add other attributes to the crew missions that add risk of loss but also add rewards. I'm sure there's a way to accomplish this.

 

This, in spades this.

 

That's why I keep saying "BUFF THE NODES!"

 

Because there is a consistent cost and risk factor attached.

[Cormanthor]

The real issue with Slicing was that the crew missions were basically a zero-risk arbitrage game. Meaning, you could pay cash to obtain more cash with basically no risk. It's something that major investment banks do all the time, but there is always some level of risk attached to it.

 

For example, if you could pay $100 to get back $150, you would do it every time. That's basically what Slicing crew missions did. No economic system (in the real or game world) would support this....any such zero-risk opportunities are quickly corrected by the market one way or another.

 

However, by comparison, I don't see an issue with slicing lockboxes found randomly in the game world...there IS risk associated with those (you have to fight through mobs to get to them usually). Plus, you have to find them, and you can't sit around waiting for them to respawn all day (well you could, but it wouldn't be time efficient).

 

Slicing was simply a poorly thought out skill from the get-go. They needed to correct the zero-risk arbitrage; but in its place, they should add other attributes to the crew missions that add risk of loss but also add rewards. I'm sure there's a way to accomplish this.

 

This is a very good post. Lets see how much the change will affect slicing after a couple weeks then look at it again to see if it needs a buff. The bad part of any MMO is that people will find a way to abuse it to the extreme which in turn the general population tends to adapt. Slicing was money for nothing and easily abused.

[Scarsick]

I'm not sure I would argue that I need to make "comparable profits" after the nerf if I were a slicer. I think you'd be asking for another nerf.

 

 

 

Nah, I worked for my creds.

 

Enjoy working for yours!

 

This quote is a perfect display of exactly what is wrong with people today; Starting ignorant, staying ignorant, and screw everything that doesn't fit inside his narrow world view.

 

Keep talking, Mr. Archon. God forbid you listen... you might actually gain knowledge.

[Drewser]

Slicing was OP in the sense that ALL crew skills are, you should NOT be able to send your minions out on missions that are a higher level than you are, period. Slicing did not and does not scale well, for your current level it was decent credits, not spectacular, just decent.

 

The issue was level 20s being able to get to 400 skill and run the level 50 missions... with level 50 scaled rewards.

 

Those could crit for 5-6K credits in a 30 - 45 minute mission if you got lucky (rare), normal was 2-3K.

 

However, this is average cash at level 50, people complaining had no clue what the issue was. It costs me at level 40 12K+ for a single repair bill, medpacks cost 20K, speederbike riding skill 2 costs 210K.... Trash mobs drop 200-300 credits each, whenever I send my companion to sell he gets between 7 and 9K just selling the grays... so if they made it across ALL professions where you can't level above your characters level it would have fixed slicing as well as any others they have not yet noticed have the exact same issue.

 

The nerf was not just missions either, it was all lockboxes everywhere. Right now, why would I even consider going out of my way to find a lockbox when I get more return just killing trash mobs? The nerf was too harsh and needs to be mostly rolled back and they really should consider not letting people level skills above their level to avoid these issues.

 

I think you are missing out then. In a little over an hour I made 13K on Hoth grabbing boxes. That only took 15 boxes and no way would I have generated that much by killing additional mobs in the time it took me to grab them.

[Anzel]

Another thousand or so posts and no word from BioWare?

[Pansophist]

Another thousand or so posts and no word from BioWare?

 

None yet. Hopefully they are thinking about the issue this time instead of providing another knee-jerk reaction.

[Wesu]

Ya, don't feel sorry for Slicers. I mean, if they want to send companions on missions, they lose credits, and get nothing in return.

 

OH, you're underworld trading? Hmm, lets check the GTN:

 

Xonolite: Grade 2 Underworld metal

Average Price = 2000 credits each

Mission produces = 2-4 Xonolite

Cost of Xonolite mission = 8 minutes, 250 credits

 

 

Yup, this is balanced. Slicers should send companions out for 40 minutes and lose 500 credits, and Underworld Traders should send companions out for ten minutes and make 8000 credits worth of mats.

 

TLDR

Bioware, please nerf biochem.

[Mogget]

I think you are missing out then. In a little over an hour I made 13K on Hoth grabbing boxes. That only took 15 boxes and no way would I have generated that much by killing additional mobs in the time it took me to grab them.

 

Yeah cause spending an hour running around "fetching" boxes is why I got interested in this game in the first place.<- Sarcasm

 

Bottom line is this Devlopers and I haven't addressed you specifically yet. The vast majority of us are not happy with the nerf. Even quite a few people who agreed there needed to be something done about slicing are second guessing what has been done. I am paying for a service at this point and it is not being administered very well.

 

I know I am just one player among a million, but I'll say it anyway. Screw with what I've paid for again in less than three months and I'm out. Unless of course that is to say you fix your giant screwup. In some way, not neccisarily revert just fix it.

 

This is game breaking for me. I was looking forward to a game where gold spammers virtually didn't exist. Where crafting didn't require me to sit around for hours in one spot to make one piece.<- Exaggeration but point made. Where getting materials to craft didn't take hours on end and took away from playing the rest of the game. Now I don't look at general chat. Now I just hope I can finish the storyline because I can't afford to get the new skills and new armor. Now I kind of dred playing because now I have to farm to make ends meet. Now I feel once I hit 50 that I'm done and there is nothing left. I used to look forward to the end game. I used to Dream of the great things I would make, use, and sell. <- Again Exaggeration. Point is I used to think that, for once, I got what I paid for. Now I feel ripped off like usual.

 

Isn't a game supposed to be fun? Who were slicers taking the fun away from really?

[Pansophist]

Ya, don't feel sorry for Slicers. I mean, if they want to send companions on missions, they lose credits, and get nothing in return.

 

OH, you're underworld trading? Hmm, lets check the GTN:

 

Xonolite: Grade 2 Underworld metal

Average Price = 2000 credits each

Mission produces = 2-4 Xonolite

Cost of Xonolite mission = 8 minutes, 250 credits

 

 

Yup, this is balanced. Slicers should send companions out for 40 minutes and lose 500 credits, and Underworld Traders should send companions out for ten minutes and make 8000 credits worth of mats.

 

TLDR

Bioware, please nerf biochem.

 

It took me a moment to detect the sarcasm. Yes, we are currently making large profits off of UWT. And UWT was previously making (read: pre-nerf) larger profits than slicing for very little additional effort. Problem is, you have a lot of people (some in this thread, some on the twitter feed...they're everywhere) that don't understand these scenarios. Instead, all I'm reminded of is 'ujelly' rage faces turning kids into rampant 'nerf this, nerf that' machines. And most of them, sadly, have not even hit 50 (or close, seeing as how certain members believe it takes LESS THAN TWO DAYS to get to 50).

 

A simple level cap would have fixed so much.

 

 

Isn't a game supposed to be fun? Who were slicers taking the fun away from really?

It's a psychology issue. On one hand, you had a large amount of the slicers (people who had not played beta extensively, people who _thought_ that 200k was a lot of money) bragging about 200-300k credits. Then, you had players who were new to the game that did not pick up slicing to level get angry and disappointed they were not seeing the same rewards with their professions.

 

Then, you had lots of complaints. So it wasn't that it was making people unhappy directly..it was a cause/effect relationship of the average video game nerd trying to e-peen it up. And I don't mean that to be derogatory, just providing a clear example most people can relate to that use the internet/video games.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Mogget]

Two weeks in those people who didn't really see the rewards weren't selling things on the market or didn't figure out that you can quest and make things to sell at the same time. I barely sold a few things on the market in that time. Edited December 29, 2011 by Mogget

[Pansophist]

Two weeks in those people who didn't really see the rewards weren't selling things on the market or didn't figure out that you can quest and make things to sell at the same time.

 

That's very true, but keep in mind we are talking about people who would rather complain than look for an alternative solution. UWT was ALWAYS more profitable, but because they did not seek an alternative solution, it was ignored.

 

I'm secretly hoping BW is in the back of the room cackling wildly at these forum threads. They are waiting for all these newbies that are complaining to hit 50 (or hell, make it past level 30) and see what the expenses are like, then wait for them to cry and say 'bring slicing back' (those who aren't too proud, anyway ) or 'nerf repair costs' 'nerf training costs.'

 

etc etc, you get the point.

[Mogget]

That is very true. Oh well, unfortunatly I think this subject has died for me. I've said all I can. I only hope the Developers take what has been said here repeatedly to heart and do something in the coming weeks.

[Thanatosx]

The real issue with Slicing was that the crew missions were basically a zero-risk arbitrage game. Meaning, you could pay cash to obtain more cash with basically no risk. It's something that major investment banks do all the time, but there is always some level of risk attached to it.

 

For example, if you could pay $100 to get back $150, you would do it every time. That's basically what Slicing crew missions did. No economic system (in the real or game world) would support this....any such zero-risk opportunities are quickly corrected by the market one way or another.

 

Except there wasn't a zero risk in slicing for the vast majority of people. If I sent my companion out on slicing, it was a risk because he couldn't tank for me and I could potentially be overwhelmed. Sure, the people who hit 50 and set up farms of alts likely had zero risk, but then, anyone who exploits a system flaw can likely achieve that...in an MMO AND in the real world as well. There are plenty of examples throughout history.

 

Aside from that, I had plenty of mission failures and sometimes had a net loss for a session. To say that you always made money on slicing with zero risk is blatantly untrue.

 

Slicing was simply a poorly thought out skill from the get-go. They needed to correct the zero-risk arbitrage; but in its place, they should add other attributes to the crew missions that add risk of loss but also add rewards. I'm sure there's a way to accomplish this.

 

I agree, there were some poorly thought out aspects of it that made it through 2-3 years of beta testing (Zero-risk arbitrage's not being one of them).

[xDoomsDayx]

None yet. Hopefully they are thinking about the issue this time instead of providing another knee-jerk reaction.

 

Well, if they at least come in and said hey we may have pushed it to far, we are looking into it and will continue to give you updates, then I think it would go a long way.