The problem with Sorcs/Sages.

[Ezrya]

Thats not really a class imbalance issue, tho. That a game mechanic issue, and should be fixed if they ever fix the resolve bar(or put in diminishing returns)

 

Yeah, it's a culmination of a lot of things. Only the healing part is class-specific.

[BoDiE]

Sorcs and Sages should be nerfed in PVP. I don't wanna touch their PVE balance if at all possible. Notice I said Sorcs AND Sages. Proper class names AND listed both mirrors.

 

 

As far as my reasoning summarized:

 

Sorcs/Sages possess decent to good DPS, decent to fantastic healing/protection, a heavy dose of CC (some of which resolve doesn't do anything against even WHEN it works), and have excellent area control. In addition they have some fantastic tactical skills.

 

Specific points:

 

1. Using their full kit they have a distinct advantage in 1 on 1 with double CC.

 

They have 2 CC and if the sorc is smart 1 will stick for full duration. If the mezz sticks they can heal up mid fight, if the stun sticks they have 4 free seconds or come up even against you (if you have double CC). Furthermore they also have a snare which resolve is useless against (if it works right for once lol)

 

2. sorcs/sage scale multiplicatively in groups.

 

The CC/healing/protection factor contributes progressively MORE per person for every additional sorc/sage that is added. In addition as a virtual swiss army knife if there is enough healing/protection they can contribute quite meaningful DPS.

 

3. This DPS/healing/protection is all at range.

 

Scoundrels/Operatives at least have to get close and in the fray to dps instead of heal. This keeps them safer as well as lets them attack from 1 level to another. Commando's/Merc's can do this as well with a bit more passive protection. But they lack the utility, the plethora of CC, and the protective bubble. In this case the extra damage does not make up for it because as a result they lose alot of their utility and multiplicative stacking in groups.

 

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

 

This causes a problem because you cannot shut down their DPS (moderate but sustained without level/gear bonus) or their healing/protection. (Fantastic if spec'd for). Not everyone has been playing for a long time or wishes to play ONLY one character. Level to 50 is not a valid point for competitive PVP in which all levels are included.

 

5. Force speed and survival

 

If a fight goes badly it's normally a simple matter for any sorc/sage to force speed away and heal up or grab a healing powerup. They will not wait until you can burst them down during a 4 second CC to do this unless they are braindead.

 

6. Force speed and objectives.

 

I'm sure your all like "you're stupid, force speed is on a long CD and not as good as you make it out to be." Fair enough.

 

HOWEVER, force speed is one of the single most tactically useful skills in the game atm. Simply by allowing one to reach one area much faster in a clutch situation sorc/sage gain a significant advantage. Reinforcing or saving turret, defusing/placing bombs, running the huttball across key stretch of ground (even wiser when combined with a pass). Force Speed is an objective acheiver and WZ's are based around objectives. Thus wise usage of force speed can provide quite significant advantages.

 

It's up to each sorc/sage to decide whether to use Force Speed for objectives or to save their own hides. Either can easily be game changing if used properly.

 

 

7. PBAOE kb.

 

Other classes have this too, however this is on top of their other skills and contributes greatly to their excellent area control and tactical use in huttball/alderann/voidstar.

 

8. Not a point BUT,

 

I do want to say that using a sorc/sage does take quite a bit of skill to use to their full potential, but that potential currently surpasses all other classes in PVP and only gets stronger with each additional supportive class added.

 

 

 

For the record YES, I did indeed just get whomped by Sorcs in the WZ's. Wouldn't be any better than being whomped by sages. Enemy team had a whopping 6 sorcs, 1 Sith Juggernaut, and 1 Mercenary. With that much stacked protection/healing we were almost completely unable to hurt anyone between the shields/healing/cc and their damage was still high enough (moderate and sustained as said) to chew through us at a quick clip.

 

This is most of the same people that previously wiped several WZ's of sith. Not because all the sith were bads, but because most of us were good players. Though we did indeed have 2 matches against bads lol. But even good players cannot do their job when CC'd constantly and facing that much healing/protection.

 

 

 

The real question to answer is: Why play anything but sorc/sage in PVP when they are good 1 on 1 and stack so well? If that is left unanswered, other than "for fun", then I believe we all know that entire guilds will run sorc/sage premades. With token Guardians/Juggernauts.

 

 

*NOTE: I know that they are not as impressive as 50's vs other properly geared 50's. If it's possible in any way to lower their early game and keep them competitive at 50, I'd be all for that. I don't want to make any class worthless, but I don't want them ROFLSTOMPING people either.

 

**Note I also realize that part of this problem could be universal across all hybrid healers. Commando's/Merc's and Scoundrels/Operatives have all been complained about regularly and seem a bit more useful than other classes as well used properly.

 

Tldr. Another lame cry to nerf thread

[Tallian]

Yeah, it's a culmination of a lot of things. Only the healing part is class-specific.

 

Not really, its true of any class that heals, which in this game covers roughly half the population of the game.

[PloGreen]

No offense op but you have no idea what you are talking about. Sage/sorc is a hybrid utility class who's strength is its cc. Most of the casts are interruptible, we get focused fired by good teams, have light armor, can be line of sighted, cced like you. This whole range have it easy stuff is just not true. You picked your class - play to its strengths that is the point off pvp.

 

The thing a lot of people seem to miss the point of in pvp is synergy. As a sage healer, a melee guardian using guard on me, we can batter people np. You need to accept that some classes fair better when there is a healer than others, this is why you get heavier armor than me, and I get stuns/snares to control the battlefield (which are on cool downs btw).

 

If you really think playing a sage well is easy, give it a try, Iam healing, ccing, snaring, controlling - dpsing, shielding, being aware of my surrounding whilst avoiding dying from multiple sources. To do that well takes experience in pvp in other mmos, lots of binds and learning, watching which abilities players use (I find most healing skills to be green casts), knowing when to use your stuns/knock backs/interupts and on who. It's certainly not simple and newbies will struggle to do that, you have to be experienced and on the ball.

 

I'm not saying your crap or anything, I have no idea how good or experienced you are, but don't make claims about classes you don't know much about. I picked this class because I knew it was a utility type class, in the right hands it's super powerful, but if you are clueless you will die alot.

[Sugerbabe]

just learn to kill them, and stop whining !

[Ezrya]

You know nothing about the classes in this game. "You can chain whirlwind your way to victory" - do you know what this skill "flashbang" does? It's a baseline instant cast aoe crowd control. 3 classes get a far superior CC spell to Sage/Sorcs.

 

Non healing specced Mercs/Commandos and Ops/Scoundrels can also heal well without being specced.

 

If you're losing to ******* who can only manage 50k healing and 50k damage a game you might want to focus on actual objectives rather than running around like a mongoloid.

 

The AoE knockback is not the best crowd control in the game, infact it's not even the best knockback. It has a 1+ second animation delay and it only knocks back about 2 feet. It's far, far worse than the mercenary/commando knockback and the guardian/jugg singletarget knockback, while being about equal with the gunslinger/sniper knockback.

 

Rescue is nowhere near as game changing as force leap+guardian leap in huttball, and huttball is garbage anyway so who cares?

 

Anyway, you're basically talking as if every other class in the game doesn't get any spells at all. I hope this post educated you, because you most definitely did not know any of this.

 

Why so angry? I made a constructive post about this issue. You could easily do the same rather than resorting to personal attacks.

 

Flashbang lasts 8 seconds. Whirlwind lasts 60. Sages/Sorcs also have an instant cast AOE knockback. They also have a stun. They also have a slow. They also have a sprint to get away from people. They also have a friendly pull to get others away from people. Yes, I do know quite a bit about this game. Why are you sure that you know so much more than me?

 

Other healers don't get their most powerful healing tools without speccing into a healing tree. Force Armor is a universal Sage ability, and the talents are in the Telekinetics tree/low in the healing tree. Shields tend to be the most powerful healing tools in PVP in any game, and they're readily available to dps Sages/Sorcs, fully buffed.

 

The AOE knockback is good enough to knock the entire team off of a bridge in Huttball, which was my point. I never said any of the other things you're implying I said. I'm quite aware that other classes have knockbacks; I just never considered that I needed to list them off in order to prove anything.

 

Rescue is good enough that if you lined people up properly, you could simply pull the ball carrier straight across the map to the goal. I'm surprised more people aren't doing so. And obviously you care, because you're making a big deal of trying to argue about it.

 

I hope my post cleared things up, because your response is full of baseless implications and presumptions. The "you must be bad" argument? I laid out a very concise set of points, and you're willfully ignoring them and presuming to know how good/bad I personally am at PVP instead. You leave me to believe that you have to put words in my mouth and/or try to make me look bad, and I can't imagine why. If I'm wrong about something, you seem articulate enough to approach it more productively.

[csebal]

TL/DR All those long bullet pointed posts of nothing and quotes of quotes of quotes make my head ache, sorry.

 

This is nothing else than typical class bias and an acute case of the grass seeming to be greener on the other side.

[DarthPeterNorth]

Force Pull and that other skill from bounty hunter nullifies any force speed you might comment.

 

Also 4 seconds never apply to force stun, aka ability delay. By the time you finish your animation he stays there 2 seconds at best.

[Tallian]

TL/DR All those long bullet pointed posts of nothing and quotes of quotes of quotes make my head ache, sorry.

 

This is nothing else than typical class bias and an acute case of the grass seeming to be greener on the other side.

 

This is true. Sorcs are being singled out because :lightning:

[blackadda]

Force speed and any other run buffs should be disabled for huttball for the ball carrier.

 

If the sorc/sage isnt carrying...their runbuff should be active... other than that minor change... nothing to see here.

[Tallian]

Force speed and any other run buffs should be disabled for huttball for the ball carrier.

 

If the sorc/sage isnt carrying...their runbuff should be active... other than that minor change... nothing to see here.

 

Also, force jump, intercede, and any other skill that moves the caster.

 

You can't forget harpoon, extricate, rescue, and various other abilities that move someone to the caster.

 

There is a guy who uses intercede to jump to a cloaked friendly from the pit in huttball for basically free points. Similarly, a sage/sorc can run over there in advance, and use extricate to yank the pall handler to the goal.

 

And the ball carrier would need to be immune to skills like harpoon because yanking him back over and over, or into the fires, is kinda cheesy.

[Emohawk]

Tbh they are not op, feel a lot more over powered playing a bounty hunter lol

[CHRISGG]

 

Flashbang lasts 8 seconds. Whirlwind lasts 60.

 

OH MY GOD. HOLY WOW. These are the type of people I deal with on these forums. My god............ people who literally just come to the forums without ever even having actually tried to use the spells they post about and act like they know ANYTHING.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CHRISGG

[RJChief]

Seems to me like the OP is suggesting that a light armor wearing healer has too many abilities?

 

I'm super surprised he left out the free Nobel Sacrafice points us Sages get on Healing Trance Crits. Any dedicated PVP might very well consider this the most critical "overpowerd" (though I hate all this overpowered talk) ability. No health lost, no force dengeneration, free force points => stay in fight and heal longer with no side effects.

 

I don't know Sorc that well but because of the mirror I'm sure they have something very similar, can anyone tell me what it is?

 

Long story short, light armor casters SHOULD have most (and most useful) abilities. Catch a squishy without a shield, or being guarded by a tank, with 3 interrupts and were pretty much the most delicious thing in the game.

 

I'll bite --> Healers with expertise can be a pain to bring down.... that's why we rolled healer. Guess who can't kill dps'ers when they are level 50? Healers, we are too busy healing all the damage they cause.

Edited December 29, 2011 by RJChief

[Ezrya]

OH MY GOD. HOLY WOW. These are the type of people I deal with on these forums. My god............ people who literally just come to the forums without ever even having actually tried to use the spells they post about and act like they know ANYTHING.

 

Tell me where I'm wrong, then, and quit raging like a 12 year old. You ignored everything else in my post to again act like you're somehow superior to me rather than actually addressing the issue.

 

These are they type or people I deal with on these forums

[wwkingms]

Force speed and any other run buffs should be disabled for huttball for the ball carrier.

 

If the sorc/sage isnt carrying...their runbuff should be active... other than that minor change... nothing to see here.

 

sure cancel those..

 

but let warriors just charge up to the scoring platform all day long right?

 

BIASED post is BIASED

[lmpervious]

Accidentally double posted. Edited December 29, 2011 by lmpervious

[lmpervious]

The only thing I really want to comment on is force speed with the ball... it is so strong. I really would simply like them to travel regular running speed when using force speed if they have the ball. Over half the ball caps I see in Huttball are from force speed. I'm not even saying it can't be stopped, but under normal circumstances (a pub game) being able to run a long distance so quickly makes it very easy to score.

 

sure cancel those..

 

but let warriors just charge up to the scoring platform all day long right?

 

BIASED post is BIASED

 

Well hold on, I'm not even saying that I agree with the fact that people should still be able to charge with the ball, but those are two different situations. It sounds like you are an Inquisitor/Consular and are the one who is biased by assuming those spells act the same way.

 

The charge requires an opponent to be standing in a stupid position, aiding the enemy, and even when they charge, that person is in range of the opponent. With force charge, the ball can get passed, and before you can even move to the other side, the enemy can force speed their way to the goal. There is a lot less room for error. I would be fine with all the different fast travelling spells being removed since there is a ball pass option, but my main point is it seems you are just getting defensive about people considering a speed force nerf because you use it, when it is very different from charge in many ways.

Edited December 29, 2011 by lmpervious

[Tallian]

Tell me where I'm wrong, then, and quit raging like a 12 year old. You ignored everything else in my post to again act like you're somehow superior to me rather than actually addressing the issue.

 

These are they type or people I deal with on these forums

 

I dunno, an 8 second aoe stun seems far more useful that a single target 60 second once, given they are both broken by damage. Only time whirlwind is useful is after you see the guy you are going 1v1 with(lol) blow his cc breaker, and he happens to be beating you. How often does someone who is beating you blow his cc breaker in 1v1?

 

not often, if he not bad.

[Tallian]

The only thing I really want to comment on is force speed with the ball... it is so strong. I really would simply like them to travel regular running speed when using force speed if they have the ball. Over half the ball caps I see in Huttball are from force speed. I'm not even saying it can't be stopped, but under normal circumstances (a pub game) being able to run a long distance so quickly makes it very easy to score.

 

 

 

Well hold on, I'm not even saying that I agree with the fact that people should still be able to charge with the ball, but those are two different situations. It sounds like you are an Inquisitor/Consular and are the one who is biased by assuming those spells act the same way.

 

The charge requires an opponent to be standing in a stupid position, aiding the enemy, and even when they charge, that person is in range of the opponent. With force charge, the ball can get passed, and before you can even move to the other side, the enemy can force speed their way to the goal. There is a lot less room for error. I would be fine with all the different fast travelling spells being removed since there is a ball pass option, but my main point is it seems you are just getting defensive about people considering a speed force nerf because you use it, when it is very different from charge in many ways.

 

Force speed doesn't take someone as far as you think it does.

 

It IS powerful for a ball carrier, but if you make it a full 30m, your lucky, and had a straight run, all of which mean you planned it out.

 

I'm all for removing it as an ability ball handlers can use, but with it goes every single ability that can move the ball handler, including those used by other players(sages get rescue for a friendly, BH gets harpoon) so that they have to move fairly, meaning no one can yank them backward or forward.

 

If you rule out an effect from affecting someone, rule it out across the board.

[Ezrya]

I dunno, an 8 second aoe stun seems far more useful that a single target 60 second once, given they are both broken by damage. Only time whirlwind is useful is after you see the guy you are going 1v1 with(lol) blow his cc breaker, and he happens to be beating you. How often does someone who is beating you blow his cc breaker in 1v1?

 

not often, if he not bad.

 

I've been chain-whirlwinded while my groupmates were killed (I'm the healer) or while the other team capped a door in front of me (given, I shouldn't have been the only one up there... but it wouldn't have been possible without stacking sorcerers). My points were mostly about why sages/sorcerers are so stackable. Currently you can keep someone CC'd for quite a while if you stack whirlwind, because of the way DR works.

 

Thanks for the rational reply, btw

[inseeisyou]

Before you pretend like sorcs and sages are the same remember that the sorc has access to Shock, which is a true burst DPS ability with instant damage as the tool tip denotes, whereas the sage version Project has a length animation delay and the damage is NOT front loaded whatsoever...

[ReFlexionn]

LAWL, OP IS MAD MAD MAD SO MAD CUZ HE GETS FACEPWNT BY THEM LOLOLOLOL

 

baddies are gonna hate

[Tallian]

Before you pretend like sorcs and sages are the same remember that the sorc has access to Shock, which is a true burst DPS ability with instant damage as the tool tip denotes, whereas the sage version Project has a length animation delay and the damage is NOT front loaded whatsoever...

 

I observed this today. Just rerolled from sorc to sage(republic to avoid all the huttball) and discovered that if you first a project at someone who then vanishes, the rock will sit in the air above you for a while.

 

With shock.. I pushed butan, people taken damage.

 

So, while all the numbers match up, shock does put sorc slightly ahead of sage, even if the ability in question is fairly low damage(~5-600 damage in a warzone)

 

Gonna have to remember to bugrep that one, its clearly breaking the mirrored classes.

[VoidJustice]

All I have to say... is for the love of god buff Knights/Maruaders...

EVERYONE SEEMS OP TO US.

 

lol