Mastery or Power for massive damage in WZ.

[Evolixe]

It's not as much as a case of uptime as it is just getting damage out sooner when you do connect.

PvP isn't about total damage done anyway, it's about finding and creating killwindows.

 

Even so, I have yet to come across an Alacrityless sin I can't beat on total damage as well.

[DenariusJay]

It's not as much as a case of uptime as it is just getting damage out sooner when you do connect.

PvP isn't about total damage done anyway, it's about finding and creating killwindows.

 

Even so, I have yet to come across an Alacrityless sin I can't beat on total damage as well.

 

This is pretty much my thoughts on alacrity as well. You can't go wrong with 12-14% alacrity on any dps build assuming you have good APM to take advantage of it. I pvped with 12% alacrity and then dropped down to 8% for awhile and it was killing me. My entire rhythm was thrown off. That difference is definitely noticeable and having higher alacrity gives you greater control of how to take advantage of those kill windows.

 

basically, higher alacrity = more opportunities to be prepared.

Edited July 13, 2017 by DenariusJay

[sumquy]

So, just to clarify for the less knowledgeable (i.e., me):

 

1. While the difference may be minimal, stacking mastery offers more benefits than stacking power.

 

2. While there is a range of opinions on the topic as far as in-game performance, stacking alacrity potentially offers more bang for your buck than stacking mastery, and the threshold for diminishing returns appears to be quite high.

 

Do I have that right?

 

almost, but you left out the most important part (and the only thing everyone seems to agree on). get your crit up to at least 40%, then decide what to do with the rest of your augs. as an example, in my gear set, i have the all of the stock pieces, a crit ear, one alacrity implant and one accuracy implant. this gives me the 110% accuracy i need for pve. am i losing a tiny bit of damage potential in pvp? probably, and in previous game versions when i had separate pvp and pve gear, i did drop all of the accuracy from my pvp gear. the caveat here, though, is that pvp gear used to be dirt cheap, whereas, now 248 gear requires a bit of work, and i am too lazy to put in the amount of work required to min/max it for such a small gain. if you do any hm operations, i would recommend following this plan, but if all you do is pvp, and you don't mind a lot of extra work for gains that will probably not even be noticeable, then you could replace the accuracy.

Edited July 13, 2017 by sumquy

[Kurj]

almost, but you left out the most important part (and the only thing everyone seems to agree on). get your crit up to at least 40%, then decide what to do with the rest of your augs. as an example, in my gear set, i have the all of the stock pieces, a crit ear, one alacrity implant and one accuracy implant. this gives me the 110% accuracy i need for pve. am i losing a tiny bit of damage potential in pvp? probably, and in previous game versions when i had separate pvp and pve gear, i did drop all of the accuracy from my pvp gear. the caveat here, though, is that pvp gear used to be dirt cheap, whereas, now 248 gear requires a bit of work, and i am too lazy to put in the amount of work required to min/max it for such a small gain. if you do any hm operations, i would recommend following this plan, but if all you do is pvp, and you don't mind a lot of extra work for gains that will probably not even be noticeable, then you could replace the accuracy.

 

Thank you, that's really helpful.

[Foambreaker]

As long as you don't use endurance or defensive stats, get 45% crit and whatever your recommended alacrity is, the power/mastery split thereafter will make almost no difference. Unlike what whiners post all day erraday, its much less about gear and much more about playmanship.

 

How can it be about playmanship?

 

He is comparing to himself.

 

/facepalm

[snave]

So your evidence of how a stat works in pvp is a parse in an arena? To get an accurate parse to test out differences in stats you have to parse at least for 40 mins to remove all the RNG doing the same exact rotation in the SAME EXACT environment as your other test. That's why stat tests in PvP are worthless because it's all RNG and not long enough to actually tell you the accurate conclusion.

 

Regardless what you are testing is a 5%~ difference in DPS which would literally be impossible to judge from a 2-4 min match lol.

 

If you know how Alacrity works then you should know you wont have perfect damage uptime with it because you wont be able to have 100% uptime. That means the effectiveness of the stat decreases. The more alacrity you run the MORE it impacts your DPS over time because that is how Alacrity works.

 

That's why the best thing to do to understand how the stats work in PvP is go from the ground up from what you know. Bant/Mutlicam did all the work for us. They can tell you straight up which stats are good and bad already. The math is here. Use PvE parses and gearing set ups. Bant did over 8000 tests of his stats to make sure he comes out with the least RNG. Then take that information and teak it for a PvP environment with the understanding of the limitations of each stat and what you want to accomplish in PvP.

 

It was a week's worth of parsing for each build, so roughly 50 hours worth. There were some warzones in there I'm pretty sure but iirc the majority of games were solo ranked for that period because I wanted to minimise the gear gap and people tend to be more consistently geared in solo.

 

I agree with you that the difference isn't massive, that's why I'd never describe running alacrity as one of the worst things you can do in pvp. From my subjective perspective, the original spike I had in damage was down to either me paying more attention specifically to my damage or from being able to get off my fart cloud more frequently in dps farm type games.

 

I've since tried out "full" bonus damage build which iirc was around 6% alacrity, a middle ground build with around 9% and another at around 12%. I personally preferred the 15% to all of these but as I keep saying, I'd always recommend players experiment themselves rather than blindly following forums advice and spreadsheets.

[Wimbleton]

How can it be about playmanship?

 

He is comparing to himself.

 

/facepalm

 

The difference between great performance (numbers, possibly) and less great performance has little to do with the finer points of gear as long as the basics are covered (correct type of gear for your class/spec, at least 40-45% crit etc).

 

Didn't seem to me like what I wrote was that confusing. I can retype it in crayon for you if necessary. Lemme know.

[kissingaiur]

It was a week's worth of parsing for each build, so roughly 50 hours worth. There were some warzones in there I'm pretty sure but iirc the majority of games were solo ranked for that period because I wanted to minimise the gear gap and people tend to be more consistently geared in solo.

 

All of this information you are trying to invent is already here. Bant did 8000+ parses ruling out every RNG scenario in a controlled setting. Using random PvP combat parses regardless of how many is baseless. There are too many variables to account for. In the end is impossible to eyeball a 5%~ difference in DPS unless you have controlled environment where you can have math and a program to do all the work for you.

Edited July 14, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Evolixe]

Didn't I already say that total damage is irrelevant and therefore parsing is irrelevant?

 

It doesn't matter what 8000 parses tell me because I'm not even interested in the information that it can provide.

You can't map the reduction in cooldowns and their effect in PvP with just parsing for a long time.

 

And in PvE EVERYONE gears Alacrity, so I don't even know what sort of parses these were but if they were for longevity the only thing I can conclude is that they have to be wrong.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Evolixe

[Korrii]

I don't think you can give general advice on the levels of alacrity, accuracy, etc that is correct for everyone.

 

Accuracy levels are known to vary depending on class / spec.

 

It's the same for alacrity.

 

I believe high alacrity is good when:

- your class is semi combo based (see snave's remarks on operative), meaning you need to do x amount of skills in a stun window for example, or you need backtime on your target etc. If you rely on combos, more combat fluidity will always be better. Dot spreading is another example.

- if you 1v1 a lot, I believe high alacrity is also a plus, because the amount of kiting/cc will be more limited, and target switching doesn't come into effect.

- when you mostly fight static targets (vs melee, on a sniper, and vs bad players who don't kite, etc)

 

From that I'd say sins, carnage maras, operatives probably want higher alac.

 

I believe alacrity is bad when:

- you chase healers or highly mobile targets (a good example of alacrity build wrecking skills is the sorc talent that blinds ppl on damage, aoe push is another example).

- when you switch targets a lot in mass fights

- when you're a dps that's focused often.

 

So low alacrity for rage juggs, tanks.

 

Anyway, like it was said before, it's really easy to get a set of alacrity augments and just try it out.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Korrii

[Fiqh]

I know this has been beaten to death, but the more you read about it, the more confused you get because no one is able to give a straight answer.

 

Some say go power because...... while others say, no, go Mastery now because.....

 

 

So which one is better ? I Play a fury Marauder level 70 on TRE and I made some tests. I ran with 14 power augments and then I ran with 14 mastery augments.

 

I really cannot tell which one is better. While going fully power augmented, I noticed that I am better 1v1 because my critical hits were out of control, but overall at the end of the match my DPS numbers weren't so...good. I never hit 2 mil with matery augments.

 

While playing power I noticed that hitting 2 million is quite easyi.

 

While playing mastery I felt that I lacking in burst ? I had like 8770 mastery and 4100 power. So I need help with this.

 

Which one do you think it's the way to go in 5.0.

 

Some ranked players said that the time of power augments is over in 5.0 and that mastery is the new stat which will make good damage.

 

thoughts ?

 

Its a toss up really. NO REALLY. I increased my accuracy to 110. That showed its value on the stats sheet at the end of the match. The best thing I did to improve I learned from a sage to use on my sage and now I apply it to all my toons. Thanks to the wonders of tab targeting I scroll through the opponents and spam my debuffs to each player before using my opening rotation. Now who ever I attack has their defenses decrease in some way of another and a better chance of feeling the full impact of my attacks. Another thing that will increase your stats is focusing the healer. They will undoubtedly heal themselves at some point and the more they heal themselves without actually dying the more your damage will increase.

[Caeliuxrules]

Didn't I already say that total damage is irrelevant and therefore parsing is irrelevant?

This ^

 

Parsing on a test dummy or any pve caculation used for pvp should never happen. Pvp is situations and boils down to specs. So here it is broken down simple.

 

1. Dot specs want alacrity and crit, better alacrity faster ticks. Dot specs aka substained damage specs are this,

 

A. Anni mar

B. Madness sorc

C. Vengence jug

D. Hatred sin

E. Lethal op

F. Vir sniper

G. Pyro pt

H. Inno merc

 

These dps specs need to be alac/crit builds. Now on building it proper im sure dulfy can provide crit % soft and hard cap info so you dont get diminshing returns, as well how much alac you need to get to.

 

Far as what burst classes could use some alacrity are,

 

A. Carnage

B. Con op

C. Decep assassin

 

Rest of dps to me dont need any alac and needs accuracy, mastery, and crit.

 

A. Fury mar

B. Mark sniper

C. Ares merc

D. Advanced pt

 

Those specs are upload burst classes, Accuracy, mastery and crit very important.

 

Dulfy got most up to date or ask in class spec area on these forums. Posting on pvp forums start mini max debates and snarky biased opinions without facts.

 

Only one who made sense trying to help op was Evo, parsing means nothing in pvp.. Nothing. When someone says little johnny hit the standing still dps dummy really good so therefore little johnny must be a pvp legend too, um.. NO... 😅

 

If I am wrong about certain classes about alac now in 5.3 love to hear about it.

 

Hope this helped you op or anyone else.

 

Cheers. 🙃

Edited July 23, 2017 by Caeliuxrules

[DavidAtkinson]

This ^

 

Parsing on a test dummy or any pve caculation used for pvp should never happen. Pvp is situations and boils down to specs. So here it is broken down simple.

 

1. Dot specs want alacrity and crit, better alacrity faster ticks. Dot specs aka substained damage specs are this,

 

A. Anni mar

B. Madness sorc

C. Vengence jug

D. Hatred sin

E. Lethal op

F. Vir sniper

G. Pyro pt

H. Inno merc

 

These dps specs need to be alac/crit builds. Now on building it proper im sure dulfy can provide crit % soft and hard cap info so you dont get diminshing returns, as well how much alac you need to get to.

 

Far as what burst classes could use some alacrity are,

 

A. Carnage

B. Con op

C. Decep assassin

 

Rest of dps to me dont need any alac and needs accuracy, mastery, and crit.

 

A. Fury mar

B. Mark sniper

C. Ares merc

D. Advanced pt

 

Those specs are upload burst classes, Accuracy, mastery and crit very important.

 

Dulfy got most up to date or ask in class spec area on these forums. Posting on pvp forums start mini max debates and snarky biased opinions without facts.

 

Only one who made sense trying to help op was Evo, parsing means nothing in pvp.. Nothing. When someone says little johnny hit the standing still dps dummy really good so therefore little johnny must be a pvp legend too, um.. NO... 😅

 

If I am wrong about certain classes about alac now in 5.3 love to hear about it.

 

Hope this helped you op or anyone else.

 

Cheers. 🙃

 

I pick this as best answer so far in this thread. Very spot on and accurate.

[Icykill_]

One thing to take into account is how much lag you have. If you miss a lot because abilities activate but don't go off or they just don't activate, having higher alacrity can really help in some of those situations. This is also relevant for accuracy and crit depending on your class.

The other thing is play style. Depending on what sort of player you are, some stat mixes will be better for you. Skill also plays a big role.

Of course the preferred cookie cutter stats Bant has come up with are there for you to start with. Then all you need to do is tweak them until you find the right fit for you.

[AlCorazon]

I am currently running a MM or Engi sniper, depeding on the mood.

I have a full 248, with half power and the other half crit augments..

So, in MM i get regular 32, 33 and sometimes 35k hits, which look really pretty.

Couple of days ago, A marauder that had around 33k hp left, decided to run away, I was able to cast Ambush with laze target on for 35.4 k hit, which killed that mara at a long range. This was a turning point in that solo ranked round.

 

If i replace the half that is with power to Alacrity, I have a feel, I won't be able to get this type of a hit again? What do you think? Sometimes I find that these type of a large hit can mean a lot, especially for a sniper if someone is trying to run away from you..

[Evolixe]

If i replace the half that is with power to Alacrity, I have a feel, I won't be able to get this type of a hit again? What do you think? Sometimes I find that these type of a large hit can mean a lot, especially for a sniper if someone is trying to run away from you..

 

Well you should see it like this; if that person runs out of range before your cast finishes.. you do no damage at all.

[KumbayaGOD]

I am currently running a MM or Engi sniper, depeding on the mood.

I have a full 248, with half power and the other half crit augments..

So, in MM i get regular 32, 33 and sometimes 35k hits, which look really pretty.

Couple of days ago, A marauder that had around 33k hp left, decided to run away, I was able to cast Ambush with laze target on for 35.4 k hit, which killed that mara at a long range. This was a turning point in that solo ranked round.

 

If i replace the half that is with power to Alacrity, I have a feel, I won't be able to get this type of a hit again? What do you think? Sometimes I find that these type of a large hit can mean a lot, especially for a sniper if someone is trying to run away from you..

 

i think all stats a work ok and depend on the situation. for example your case with mara. you were able to cast ambush on full to the mara thus the mara was dead, but on different circumstance for example 0.5 sec before your ambush end your enemy LOS you so you cant landed any hit of ambush. In this scenario if you have faster alac you can kill the enemy

[kissingaiur]

One thing to take into account is how much lag you have. If you miss a lot because abilities activate but don't go off or they just don't activate, having higher alacrity can really help in some of those situations.

 

Alacrity does not counter-act ping. If anything running high Alacrity in this scenario would make your DPS worse because with lag you will not be able to hit all your GCDs on time therefore a slight GCD reduction within Alacrity will be irrelevant. Alacrity doesn't magically fix lag, you would still lag while putting all your hope on stringing your GCDs together which you wouldn't be able to ... seeing how you're lagging. If you are looking for a DPS increase with bad ping you should be literally doing the opposite.

Edited July 24, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Lotsanerv]

I've tried stacking both mastery or power over one another on a variety of spec/classes. Makes little difference for me. Basically, if I want more crit %, I add mastery when I'm high in the crit dr curve.

 

As for the alacrity debate, I like the way a little to a moderate amount of alacrity FEELS on all my dps toons, and my overall numbers improve significantly when I use it.(PvP and PvE) It doesn't matter if it's theoretically a waste, even though that's probably true. It makes a huge difference to me because without it, my GCDs feel too slow. Timings are better with it in my opinion, but hey, I play pepped up on amphetamines. I mean, like I'm pepped up.....

[Kyuuu]

I like alacrity I think 10% is min that should be used.

 

play any toon with 0 % alacrity and it feel like i laging, even though I am not, but if you are laging that alacrity become useless,

 

Going from my DPS that as 12% alacrity to tank with 0% alacrity, I See and feel diffrence

 

I think it all comes down to ones preference and play style.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Kyuuu

[Icykill_]

Alacrity does not counter-act ping. If anything running high Alacrity in this scenario would make your DPS worse because with lag you will not be able to hit all your GCDs on time therefore a slight GCD reduction within Alacrity will be irrelevant. Alacrity doesn't magically fix lag, you would still lag while putting all your hope on stringing your GCDs together which you wouldn't be able to ... seeing how you're lagging. If you are looking for a DPS increase with bad ping you should be literally doing the opposite.

 

I usually back your info, but you aren't complete correct with what you are saying as I think you misunderstood the point I was making.

What I mean is when my GDCs go off and it doesn't activate because it lags, I don't have to wait as long for it to come back up. With 200+ms Ping that can make all the difference.

I never actually said alacrity fixed lag. I know it doesn't, but I also know how it can affect the ability to get off your next GDC if the previous doesn't go off after it activates.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Icykill_

[kissingaiur]

I usually back your info, but you aren't complete correct with what you are saying as I think you misunderstood the point I was making.

What I mean is when my GDCs go off and it doesn't activate because it lags, I don't have to wait as long for it to come back up. With 200+ms Ping that can make all the difference.

I never actually said alacrity fixed lag. I know it doesn't, but I also know how it can affect the ability to get off your next GDC if the previous doesn't go off after it activates.

 

No, it really doesn't though. You are trying to argue there is a positive relationship between stacking high Alacrity when you have high ping, which there isn't. Adding MORE activation in a game doesn't counter-balance the lost time because of ping. You are still using the same crappy activation time regardless if you have 1million Alacrity or zero. You're problem is outside of the game; nothing in the game, when it comes to decreased GCD, will help you in this regard.

 

I don't know how else to explain this. I think your understanding of how activation works in relation to Alacrity is slightly wrong. There is zero benefit to adding Alacrity when you can't even use your GCDs on time because of bad ping.

Edited July 26, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Icykill_]

No, it really doesn't though. You are trying to argue there is a positive relationship between stacking high Alacrity when you have high ping, which there isn't. Adding MORE activation in a game doesn't counter-balance the lost time because of ping. You are still using the same crappy activation time regardless if you have 1million Alacrity or zero. You're problem is outside of the game; nothing in the game, when it comes to decreased GCD, will help you in this regard.

 

I don't know how else to explain this. I think your understanding of how activation works in relation to Alacrity is slightly wrong. There is zero benefit to adding Alacrity when you can't even use your GCDs on time because of bad ping.

 

Ok, well from my testing says different. Maybe stop attacking someone who plays with much higher Ping than you have and can see how it works first hand.

Anyway, that's my experience with alacrity and playing with 220-300ms. I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore because I know what my testing shows me.

[frosttj]

No, it really doesn't though. You are trying to argue there is a positive relationship between stacking high Alacrity when you have high ping, which there isn't. Adding MORE activation in a game doesn't counter-balance the lost time because of ping. You are still using the same crappy activation time regardless if you have 1million Alacrity or zero. You're problem is outside of the game; nothing in the game, when it comes to decreased GCD, will help you in this regard.

 

I don't know how else to explain this. I think your understanding of how activation works in relation to Alacrity is slightly wrong. There is zero benefit to adding Alacrity when you can't even use your GCDs on time because of bad ping.

 

You're still sending the information through the server at 1.5 seconds per GCD, or lower with alacrity. The server just executes the information at the MS delay. Ergo, if you press 1,2,3,4 rotation and it takes 5.4 seconds to perform the series of abilities, it still respects the alacrity reducing the GCD. It just takes 200ms for the rotation to begin and it ends 200ms later. It doesn't add 200ms to the GCD itself.

[kissingaiur]

Ok, well from my testing says different. Maybe stop attacking someone who plays with much higher Ping than you have and can see how it works first hand.

Anyway, that's my experience with alacrity and playing with 220-300ms. I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore because I know what my testing shows me.

 

I'm here to tell you, there is no relationship like that, it is simply wrong. If you're lagging you're not using every GCD.

If you're not using every GCD Alacrity is a waste therefore stacking more Alacrity while lagging it would be a waste as well.

 

@frosttj - you are misinterpretation what I am saying.

Edited July 26, 2017 by kissingaiur