Aetideus Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 They're going to rip every class in the game apart. Don't worry, no one will be happy before to long. Have you read their post? It is buff for lethality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdjeYo Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Have you read their post? It is buff for lethality. Have you? Lethality is supposed to be +5% above target dps. If we estimate the target dps by say current engineering (which should be at target dps), we find lethality way over 5% above target dps. So by Bioware's post lethality will get nerfed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Have you read their post? It is buff for lethality. Tbh I have little doubts lethality will be slightly nerfed. Its seriously over the other parse-wise and it does translate decently to most fights. It went under the radar because it is still one of the less played specs in the game. But yah, the OP has erupted into angry tears of angst long ago, and probably suffer from not understanding what other classes do or do not. I guess when you keep getting dead last on a boss fight you start trying to find excuses and blame the other classes and not yourself as a player. Truth is, he'd use a leth op, or a marauder and he'd probably do even less than his sorc. Edited July 18, 2017 by verfallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 It'll be hard to nerf operatives' dmg without buffing their defensives. Their damage output in pvp is basically trash if you're not being carried by a tank and healer. The nature of our survivability (almost all gcd-dependent) makes our actual damage output 30-40% less than what you see on the parses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetideus Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Have you? Lethality is supposed to be +5% above target dps. If we estimate the target dps by say current engineering (which should be at target dps), we find lethality way over 5% above target dps. So by Bioware's post lethality will get nerfed The opposite. It is supposed to get +5 buff. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043 Edited July 18, 2017 by Aetideus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Have you read their post? It is buff for lethality. Cuz that makes sense heh. If the system they are using is taken literally, the class balance will be worse when they are done than it was before 5.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The opposite. It is supposed to get +5 buff. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043 I think people are misunderstanding what they mean when they say "Target DPS". Not every spec in the same cateogory is literally going to do the same DPS. That has never been the case before, would be dumb, and would make one category's classes unilaterally better or worse across the board than another category. I do not think that's what they mean when they say target DPS, and I do not think that every class in a cateogory is going to have higher or lower DPS than the specs in other categories. For example, I don't think every single sustained rDPS spec is going to have higher DPS than every single burst DPS spec. If they actually were stupid enough to do that, you ensure, people from some categories will be undesirable across the board and no one will want to play that low category. In this game there is very little difference between Sustained and Burst Specs, it doesn't operate with that traditional mode. If they want to have that, than for example you cannot have Anni Mara's doing 25K + Annihilates, because that is burst spec kind of damage in the traditional mode in addition to dots. It doesnt make a noticable diffference now because the specs aren't tradtional in this game. Bant said it best, I've shared this is other threads before, but given we all know and base our builds on Bant's work, this is essentially from the horses mouth. There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetideus Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Cuz that makes sense heh. If the system they are using is taken literally, the class balance will be worse when they are done than it was before 5.3. I dont know how class balance will end, but according to that announcement Lethality being melee and dot is the top candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equeliber Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) The opposite. It is supposed to get +5 buff. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043 You need to up your reading comprehension. The table they posted doesn't mean that listed specs will get +5% buff and -5% nerf. It means that listed specs in the end of balancing should be 5% above or 5% below target dps. And as they themselves said in the SAME post, some specs already are at the desired spot and some are not. Engineering, IO got nerfed to bring them down to the groups of DPS where they are wanted. According to your logic they should have been left where they are cause in the table it says "at target DPS"? Why did Madness get a buff? Edited July 20, 2017 by Equeliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterceil Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 It'll be hard to nerf operatives' dmg without buffing their defensives. Their damage output in pvp is basically trash if you're not being carried by a tank and healer. The nature of our survivability (almost all gcd-dependent) makes our actual damage output 30-40% less than what you see on the parses. What are you talking about? Surrender, Shield, Dodge, and Trick Move (which has defensive applications) are all off the GCD. Roll and Stealth aren't, but they aren't the biggest GCDs of the class. I do 9.7k on a dummy, and can manage around 8k on many boss fights. That's only about an 18% dps loss even with my scrubby arse. My Warzone DPS varies widely depending on the situation. Sure, single-target tends to suck. Clustereffs on a Voidstar door or an OPG node, though, gets fairly awesome with the dot spreads. Shrap Bomb, Vital Shot, Lacerating Blast, and Bushwhack fluffs some numbers pretty nicely in a hairball. If BW's target is 9.6k, 5% over that target would put us just over 10k damage. I'm only in about 242.7 rating gear last I checked (haven't recalculated since I got a 246 relic in a crate last night, might've put me at 243), so I'm not among those currently putting up 11k parses. But if, after any nerfs, I can hit 10k in BiS, I'll still be happy. And they don't really need to buff our defensives to do it. Though they could be nice about it and give us Reflect on Thrasher and Tyrans back... /parsewhore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetideus Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) You need to up your reading comprehension. The table they posted doesn't mean that listed specs will get +5% buff and -5% nerf. It means that listed specs in the end of balancing should be 5% above or 5% below target dps. And as they themselves said in the SAME post, some specs already are at the desired spot and some are not. Engineering, IO got nerfed to bring them down to the groups of DPS where they are wanted. According to your logic they should have been left where they are cause in the table it says "at target DPS"? Why did Madness get a buff? ... They say as well what the criteria are: " We feel both Melee and Sustained damage types are inherently disadvantaged, and that is why Melee Sustained damage dealers (with their two inherent disadvantages) make up the top grouping" Lethality is both. According to that table Lethality is at the top group. According to what they actually did, AT the target 0 dps group, 2 specs were nerfed and 1 was buffed. What is expected then for Lethality which is already at the +5 group, according to you? Nerf dps because Lethality is (supposedly) now already over the target +5 of their proposed balance? Certainly not a nerf. Edited July 20, 2017 by Aetideus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equeliber Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 ... They say as well what the criteria are: " We feel both Melee and Sustained damage types are inherently disadvantaged, and that is why Melee Sustained damage dealers (with their two inherent disadvantages) make up the top grouping" Lethality is both. According to that table Lethality is at the top group. According to what they actually did, AT the target 0 dps group, 2 specs were nerfed and 1 was buffed. What is expected then for Lethality which is already at the +5 group, according to you? Nerf dps because Lethality is (supposedly) now already over the target +5 of their proposed balance? Certainly not a nerf. From what they posted we can't actually know which spec is and which isn't where they want it. From the number we have we can certainly see it isn't underperforming. So they will either leave it as it is or nerf it. What exactly will happen, we can only speculate until they release more info on 5.4 balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhobin Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 What are you talking about? Surrender, Shield, Dodge, and Trick Move (which has defensive applications) are all off the GCD. Roll and Stealth aren't, but they aren't the biggest GCDs of the class. I do 9.7k on a dummy, and can manage around 8k on many boss fights. That's only about an 18% dps loss even with my scrubby arse. My Warzone DPS varies widely depending on the situation. Sure, single-target tends to suck. Clustereffs on a Voidstar door or an OPG node, though, gets fairly awesome with the dot spreads. Shrap Bomb, Vital Shot, Lacerating Blast, and Bushwhack fluffs some numbers pretty nicely in a hairball. If BW's target is 9.6k, 5% over that target would put us just over 10k damage. I'm only in about 242.7 rating gear last I checked (haven't recalculated since I got a 246 relic in a crate last night, might've put me at 243), so I'm not among those currently putting up 11k parses. But if, after any nerfs, I can hit 10k in BiS, I'll still be happy. And they don't really need to buff our defensives to do it. Though they could be nice about it and give us Reflect on Thrasher and Tyrans back... /parsewhore You understand that most of that is fluff damage, and is pretty worthless if the other team has a healer right? Roll and dodge are our biggest DCDs, one only works on one type of damage, the other has 0 dps uptime on it. Compare that to other classes. Ops are annoying, we can kite forever, win a few duels but we are hardly OP. Ask 10 people if they would rather have a sniper or merc on their ranked team, you going to get the same answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupolus Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) According to http://parsely.io/parser/stats Adv class Max dps Average dps Dirty Fighting / Virulence 10823.48 10705.96 Tactics / Advanced Prototype 11558.24 10226.75 Infiltration / Deception 13466.28 10057.21 Combat / Carnage 11608.54 9897.89 Scrapper / Concealment 11570.45 9874.07 Serenity / Hatred 11188.60 9751.92 Ruffian / Lethality 11765.63 9714.92 Saboteur / Engineering 10759.15 9696.52 Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance 10721.60 9672.18 Gunnery / Arsenal 10860.20 9513.55 Vigilance / Vengeance 10544.33 9420.92 Balance / Madness 10274.83 9343.4 Focus / Rage 10637.57 9289.71 Watchman / Annihilation 11155.14 9289.03 Plasmatech / Pyrotech 10300.85 9191.29 Telekinetics / Lightning 10728.40 9145.42 Concentration / Fury 11239.09 9139.35 Sharpshooter / Marksmanship 11090.20 9110.22 -5.23 So, on average Scoundrels and Operatives are doing ok, nothing to be amazed about Edited July 23, 2017 by Lupolus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterceil Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 According to http://parsely.io/parser/stats Adv class Max dps Average dps Dirty Fighting / Virulence 10823.48 10705.96 Tactics / Advanced Prototype 11558.24 10226.75 Infiltration / Deception 13466.28 10057.21 Combat / Carnage 11608.54 9897.89 Scrapper / Concealment 11570.45 9874.07 Serenity / Hatred 11188.60 9751.92 Ruffian / Lethality 11765.63 9714.92 Saboteur / Engineering 10759.15 9696.52 Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance 10721.60 9672.18 Gunnery / Arsenal 10860.20 9513.55 Vigilance / Vengeance 10544.33 9420.92 Balance / Madness 10274.83 9343.4 Focus / Rage 10637.57 9289.71 Watchman / Annihilation 11155.14 9289.03 Plasmatech / Pyrotech 10300.85 9191.29 Telekinetics / Lightning 10728.40 9145.42 Concentration / Fury 11239.09 9139.35 Sharpshooter / Marksmanship 11090.20 9110.22 -5.23 So, on average Scoundrels and Operatives are doing ok, nothing to be amazed about 2.5mil is the gold standard (that being the typical damage one DPS does to an ops boss), and Ruffian/Lethality is 400 DPS (~3.9%) higher than Watchman there. I'd be fine with a 3.9% nerf, but I'm sadly expecting 15% or more, because Bioware likes to nuke things from orbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hichitsuki-hime Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 it's not devent. Its OverPowered. Look at parsley... operatives NEED A HUGE NERF FFS, please stop calling for other classes nerf would you? as a fellow sorcerer i'm embarrassed lol. i agree, sorc needs some more love. but while yes lethality is too high compared to every other spec, there's really nothing wrong with concealment:D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hichitsuki-hime Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 but seriously i think they should consider letting us know what this mythical 'target DPS' actually is. so we can compare ourselves to that and know just how on target or not we are :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts