Change to Cartel Color Crystals and Weapon Tunings with Legacy Weapons

[frennky]

Man this thread blew up in a hurry. Okay, so after reading a handful of pages, and trying to discern where people are getting angry here, I may need some help in clarifying their positions. So from what I understand, they've now closed a loophole that allowed players to basically get a single crystal and circumvent the collection process and not have to pay CC's in order to unlock them on every character (which, understandably, Bioware wants to obtain revenue for, now that tunings are also affected).

 

But I see people complaining that they have paid for the unlocks and are inconvenienced by this whole thing now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you paid to unlock the crystal account wide, and you wanted to move that crystal....why wouldn't you just obtain another copy from your collections on the toon that you want it on? What am I missing here? I need a summary or something, because I'm extremely confused as to why people think that this is such a bad thing for them.

 

It's simple, I have many alts so I reuse armor sets and weapons. Before this change I could send my BoL gear to alts without issue, but now I need to pull out the crystal to send the weapon, claim the crystal from collection and then put it back on my alt. And you have to do that every time. People payed to save time, and this change makes that purchase a waste.

[Thruine]

I think they're talking about the items with the little shield in the right hand corner of the icon. I dunno why they just didn't add those to your collection tab so people could just have hundreds of copies if they wanted. I guess this is just a problem for this one specific item type (well, I think its the only one of its type). This is a none issue to me since what BoL stuff I have I don't pass around so it may as well be locked to my characters. And its getting addressed in a month for the hundreds that apparently do pass weapons around. Now I'm wondering what these weapons look like since that's the only reason I can think of to do this swapping. Must be pretty amazing.

[Sundown]

If you are going to make such accusations it pays to support them, usually if people are furious then they are emotional - I'm sorry if logic gets in the way of your emotions but it does not change the facts.

Come on, you noticed the smiley now, didn't you? And smart as you are I am sure you are enjoying a little "devil's advocate" game here...

When I talk about "error" it is the unlocking for collections on the receiving end of the legacy weapon. And even if you consider the multiplying of items through tedious procedures (like adding to legacy weapon, sending, ripping) an issue - there was a simple fix: handle CM-item modifications the same way you handle a dye. Issue solved: the legacy weapon can be used by all chars, it looks the same for all chars (as intended!) - but you don't profit otherwise.

 

Right now I will not be able to use my weapon despite unlocks for a month (I have unlocked one tuning), and afterwards I need to unlock others I didn't want to unlock through cc or remove the items before sending (cost and time effort) or completely stop using them (loss of invest). It just sucks.

Basically BW is trying to force me to spend additional cc in order to properly use the items I already paid for. That pisses me off just enough to go the opposite direction and refrain from spending anything besides my sub.

[Pellerinen]

Right now I will not be able to use my weapon despite unlocks for a month (I have unlocked one tuning), and afterwards I need to unlock others I didn't want to unlock through cc or remove the items before sending (cost and time effort) or completely stop using them (loss of invest). It just sucks.

Basically BW is trying to force me to spend additional cc in order to properly use the items I already paid for. That pisses me off just enough to go the opposite direction and refrain from spending anything besides my sub.

 

While fixing this loophole in a sensible, adult way would have annoyed very few people. I understand that the game code in place at the moment could have made making tunings act like dyes difficult to implement, but I really can't think of a lazier fix to the problem than what they actually did.

 

It's like having a house with a landlord that notices outsiders have been living there without paying the rent,,so his first solution is to brick up all the doors and windows to said house, and telling the occupants that it's just a minor inconvenience to break in and repair damages every time they want to enter or exit... since who the hell uses locks? Locks are hard, man.

[Sundown]

I understand that the game code in place at the moment could have made making tunings act like dyes difficult to implement, but I really can't think of a lazier fix to the problem than what they actually did.

About the first statement: while I know the concept of technical debt and the massive decrease of development speed over time going along with it I can only in my worst nightmares from coding hell picture an architecture where it is easier to a) identify whether an item is of type CM, b) verifying its unlock status in collections to c) prevent it from being sent or put into legacy storage despite it being a legacy weapon (thus usually allowed to be handled like that) than just a) identifying whether an item is CM and b) preventing it from being ripped out (as already implemented for dyes). No way.

 

I fully subscribe to your second statement, which is exactly why I am annoyed to say the least.

[IanArgent]

From previous changes, it appears they cannot make legacy-bound items available in collections. The HK-55 helmet was launched as legacy and converted to BoP and in collections the next patch, apparently done so that it COULD be put into collections.

 

I'm not going to say that breaking Legacy Weapon functionality with this patch without having the fix that's going to be in next month's included as a Good Thing - far from it. The reaction was entirely predictable, and the oversight was disappointing. But it's done, they've slated the fix for the next scheduled patch. That's about as much as I expect they can do. There's a workaround to the issue, and it affects a tiny minority of the player base anyway. Patches get triaged for immediacy of deployment, and out-of-cycle patches have to have extraordinary justification.

 

(One of my jobs is to triage bug reports and patches against them - this is my personal opinion but informed by my professional experience)

[SonofThulkose]

Patch notes read: "Character bound Color Crystals and Weapon Tunings from the Cartel Market (direct sale or packs) can no longer be moved across characters via Legacy Weapons."

 

What is the community's view on this?

 

My opinion is that this is a bad change. I appreciate that Bioware probably want to make more money by eliminating a way to avoid paying for account-wide unlock. However, it's going to be a real pain to share weapons via legacy storage from now on. Personally, I think that the inconvenience to players is going to annoy more people and cause more problems than whatever is gained via the cartel market. And, actually, colour crystals might seem less attractive and less likely to be purchased due to this change.

 

Especially since they ran a Dark Vs Light event that had the potential to drop Dark Side or Light Side Tunings which Bioware/EA, in their infinite wisdom, have decided NOT to add to collections... meaning if you have BoL Weapons you added Dark side/Light Side Tunings to MONTHS AGO you can NO LONGER share those weapons WITH ANY OTHER character you have FOR ANY PRICE! Way to PENALIZE your paying customers for participating in your friggen content! Oh! And, of course, there is the fact that if you HAVE added a tuning that CAN BE added to your collection, don't worry, you WILL be able to share those weapons across characters on your account... SOME TIME NEXT MONTH... HOPEFULLY!!

[Medullah]

Especially since they ran a Dark Vs Light event that had the potential to drop Dark Side or Light Side Tunings which Bioware/EA, in their infinite wisdom, have decided NOT to add to collections... meaning if you have BoL Weapons you added Dark side/Light Side Tunings to MONTHS AGO you can NO LONGER share those weapons WITH ANY OTHER character you have FOR ANY PRICE! Way to PENALIZE your paying customers for participating in your friggen content! Oh! And, of course, there is the fact that if you HAVE added a tuning that CAN BE added to your collection, don't worry, you WILL be able to share those weapons across characters on your account... SOME TIME NEXT MONTH... HOPEFULLY!!

 

Yes, them not having the Dark vs. Light tunings in collections was a deliberate choice by them and not an oversight that has since been corrected.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Come on, you noticed the smiley now, didn't you? And smart as you are I am sure you are enjoying a little "devil's advocate" game here...

When I talk about "error" it is the unlocking for collections on the receiving end of the legacy weapon. And even if you consider the multiplying of items through tedious procedures (like adding to legacy weapon, sending, ripping) an issue - there was a simple fix: handle CM-item modifications the same way you handle a dye.

 

Yes but my point is these items are designed to have a cost associated to them share with other toons correct? That's collection unlocks. Sharing via legacy weapon bypasses this (if we move past the actual exploit) - thus the logic is simple. They want to make money from collections and don't feel Toon B should get the vanity look Toon A earned from a cartel pack (or whatever means).

 

Dyes there is NO choice to sharing via collections as they do not collection unlock. I guarantee if dyes ever did collection unlock then you would likewise see the ability to share legacy items with dyes in them removed.

 

Issue solved: the legacy weapon can be used by all chars, it looks the same for all chars (as intended!) - but you don't profit otherwise.

 

And from BWA perspective they miss out on money they wanted from collections unlock. That's their justification here for this change. I don't support this (I've never used collections for this reason, I accumulated billions of credits and 1000s of CM items to avoid this) but I see the logic why they did it. Again for anyone playing along this is not what BWA are calling an exploit either, this is a business change for them - the exploit was the free collection unlocking.

 

Right now I will not be able to use my weapon despite unlocks for a month (I have unlocked one tuning), and afterwards I need to unlock others I didn't want to unlock through cc or remove the items before sending (cost and time effort) or completely stop using them (loss of invest). It just sucks.

 

Yup but it is what it is, profits before player enjoyment. They figured this with 5.0 grindfest and the P2W "premium" system they have now (not to mention selling GC boosts) and instead of making more money I'm sure profits have hit rock bottom because player numbers sure have.

 

Basically BW is trying to force me to spend additional cc in order to properly use the items I already paid for. That pisses me off just enough to go the opposite direction and refrain from spending anything besides my sub.

 

Well arguably you got what you paid for but I see your point.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

From previous changes, it appears they cannot make legacy-bound items available in collections. The HK-55 helmet was launched as legacy and converted to BoP and in collections the next patch, apparently done so that it COULD be put into collections.

 

I'm not going to say that breaking Legacy Weapon functionality with this patch without having the fix that's going to be in next month's included as a Good Thing - far from it. The reaction was entirely predictable, and the oversight was disappointing. But it's done, they've slated the fix for the next scheduled patch. That's about as much as I expect they can do. There's a workaround to the issue, and it affects a tiny minority of the player base anyway. Patches get triaged for immediacy of deployment, and out-of-cycle patches have to have extraordinary justification.

 

(One of my jobs is to triage bug reports and patches against them - this is my personal opinion but informed by my professional experience)

 

Can't or won't?

 

I don't use collections so can't attest to your example but does it cost credits to unlock?

 

I would say if it does then they choose to make legacy items BOP into collections as it makes them money, pure legacy based items would not.

[DarthDymond]

From previous changes, it appears they cannot make legacy-bound items available in collections.

Black-Purple Striated Crystals are Legacy-Bound items that are available in Collections.

 

Especially since they ran a Dark Vs Light event that had the potential to drop Dark Side or Light Side Tunings which Bioware/EA, in their infinite wisdom, have decided NOT to add to collections...

From Tuesday's Patch Notes:

Items + Economy

[...]

• The Dark-Attuned and Light-Attuned Weapon Tunings have been added to Collections.
  

[IanArgent]

Can't or won't?

 

I don't use collections so can't attest to your example but does it cost credits to unlock?

 

I would say if it does then they choose to make legacy items BOP into collections as it makes them money, pure legacy based items would not.

 

HK-55's helmet is no longer BoL, it's BoP. I have no idea what the unlock cost is, I unlock it per character and throw it away; since each new character gets one, I don't need to unlock it per-account. I wish they'd go back and make stuff like Nico's coat and blasters, and the flight suits, BoP, and put them in Collections (with some warning, so I can make sure all my extant characters have a set to personally unlock) so I can pull extra copies without having to cycle a character. Now that you can buy BoL armor cheaply at Fleet, and get as many PoL armors as you care to from Alliance Crates, I see no need to keep the sub reward armor as BoL and out of collections.

 

I want to say there was an actual dev statement saying BoL armor and weapons can't be put into collections because Reasons Unspecified, but I can't say for sure and am too lazy to investigate. So I'll merely observe that the HK-55 helmet was changed from BoL to BoP when it was added to the collections system.

 

(Also, unlocks are always Cartel Coins, never Credits).

[IanArgent]

Black-Purple Striated Crystals are Legacy-Bound items that are available in Collections.

 

Thank you for correcting me. I should have said "armor and weapons." The versions you pull from collections are BoP, I think. It's been so long since I used them I cannot recall.

 

Can we get a Dev in here to address what can and can't be put into the collections system today?

[Tarbuch]

I can understand you want to fix the issue with crystals and legacy weapons, but if it was an issue for 5 years maybe you could've hold up for few more days to fix it properly and not like this. I've spent CCs by unlocking crystals account-wide for convenience and your sudden haste to fix this issue after 5 years robed me of that convenience.

 

You should really think hard and be careful when you do fixes like this, because one of the main reasons players don't move on to other games is that they have invested a lot in this game. They have a lot of unlocks, credits etc. and switch to a new game would mean start from scratch. If you keep doing things like this, you're just gonna make it easier for players to switch.

 

BW/EA does not care about retaining players, they are trying their best to kill the game. Bugs stay in the game for month/years if they inconvenience players, if they effect the bottom line for BW/EA it is fixed immediately with emergency patch, and the ban hammer will swing.

[Tarbuch]

Until 5.4 drops, putting a Collectible item into a Legacy Weapon (crystal or tuning) disables the ability to transfer the item between legacy members. This breaks a functionality that was completely unrelated to the "cheap unlock" of the cartel item cosmetics. You can work around this by removing the cartel market item or replacing it with a non-Collectible item, but that costs, both in resources and time. The pages and pages of arguments are between people who think this is unimportant or the most important thing ever. Which, of course is a subjective judgement.

 

I am pretty sure that the fix will not make it to 5.4, they had no intention to fix the bug before the forums exploded in a ball og rage.

[IanArgent]

I am pretty sure that the fix will not make it to 5.4, they had no intention to fix the bug before the forums exploded in a ball og rage.

 

That's your prerogative, of course, but I'm not going to bet against them doing something they explicitly said they were going to do.

[Sundown]

Yup but it is what it is, profits before player enjoyment. They figured this with 5.0 grindfest and the P2W "premium" system they have now (not to mention selling GC boosts) and instead of making more money I'm sure profits have hit rock bottom because player numbers sure have.

That is my point exactly, they are changing the system for the worse of the players. One can argue either way (obviously), but a company continuously deciding against the interest of the player base is not smart. It might work out, but it is still bad business.

Well arguably you got what you paid for but I see your point.

No, I didn't. When I bought the crystals and tunings I was able to use them in my legacy weapon, send the weapon around and get the same looks there regardless of whether or not I had the item unlocked. Now if I remember the system correctly (no option to play for a couple of days, but account unlock does not work with ingame currency iirc) I will not be able to use a good looking crystal or tuning in my weapon conveniently unless I pay "real" money in form of CC. That is completely new.

 

Anyway - enough time spent on this. It just makes me sad to see business triumph over gaming, but that is just the way it is I guess. Time to move on - or accept it.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Sundown

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No, I didn't. When I bought the crystals and tunings I was able to use them in my legacy weapon,

 

So you got the crystal and tuning you paid for? Then you got what you paid for. iirc all tunings come from the packs too ?If so you can't actually buy them from cash and you buy RNG packs for cash so again, you got what you paid for.

 

I get people have an issue and I see where you come from, as I said, but you technically got what you paid for.

[Ratajack]

That is my point exactly, they are changing the system for the worse of the players. One can argue either way (obviously), but a company continuously deciding against the interest of the player base is not smart. It might work out, but it is still bad business.

No, I didn't. When I bought the crystals and tunings I was able to use them in my legacy weapon, send the weapon around and get the same looks there regardless of whether or not I had the item unlocked. Now if I remember the system correctly (no option to play for a couple of days, but account unlock does not work with ingame currency iirc) I will not be able to use a good looking crystal or tuning in my weapon conveniently unless I pay "real" money in form of CC. That is completely new.

 

Anyway - enough time spent on this. It just makes me sad to see business triumph over gaming, but that is just the way it is I guess. Time to move on - or accept it.

 

The last time I checked, subscribers (and only subscribers can post on the forums) received a minimum of 500 CC per month for no additional cost above their subscription. That is enough CC to unlock any crystal in collections.

 

A security key will earn a player 100 CC per month, even if they are not a subscriber.

 

A subscriber with a security key will earn at least 600 CC a month, enough to unlock any tuning in collections.

[rlionherz]

The last time I checked, subscribers (and only subscribers can post on the forums) received a minimum of 500 CC per month for no additional cost above their subscription. That is enough CC to unlock any crystal in collections.

 

A security key will earn a player 100 CC per month, even if they are not a subscriber.

 

A subscriber with a security key will earn at least 600 CC a month, enough to unlock any tuning in collections.

 

kinda right ye.

crystal unlock cost from 60 to 400cc

tuning the one i own is 600cc

 

iam not saying BW move was wrong. but at least they could have give us a warning (just for the sake of it)

and ofc they could lower these freaking greedy unlock costs

[Pscyon]

The last time I checked, subscribers (and only subscribers can post on the forums) received a minimum of 500 CC per month for no additional cost above their subscription. That is enough CC to unlock any crystal in collections.

 

A security key will earn a player 100 CC per month, even if they are not a subscriber.

 

A subscriber with a security key will earn at least 600 CC a month, enough to unlock any tuning in collections.

Indeed... Which is frustrating to say the least. You can unlock a single tuning, and that's all you get for a month, or you can get maybe a few silver and bronze unlocks. Tunings (at least a couple of them) are cool and all, but the 600 coin unlock is brutal. No other unlock costs that much, it really should be in line with other golds. Surely it's a move to get us to buy more cartel coins, and I'm sure it works on a lot of people. For me personally though, it just means I have to be even more critical on what I spend my coins on and grind even more money for GTN as I'll have to start buying more duplicates.

[Anzel]

Yikes guys. When I first read this I though the change only applied to crystals or tunings *NOT* unlocked in Collections. I unlock everything so was like, "NBD, this doesn't apply to me". Then I logged in and tested it. Wow.

 

I paid for the item. I *paid* for the *unlock*. I paid for the game and all the expansions. Oh yeah, I've paid for a subscription fee every single month and a grotesque amount of coins. I expect to be treated way better than this for my patronage. This is how you lose customers. Correction, this is WHY you lost most of your customers.

 

This is a terribly designed solution. Terribly implemented. Terribly communicated.

[Andryah]

iam not saying BW move was wrong. but at least they could have give us a warning (just for the sake of it)

 

I think it was clear from Keiths post why we did not get advance warning on this. Not because of the long open loophole on crystals... but the fact that their data showed a lot of players were exploiting the mechanics to get free tunings unlocked across their account.. one character at a time. And sure...people were doing this to bypass the unlock fee. And Keith declared this an exploit... and they DO NOT give advance notice about closing exploits.

[Jdast]

I think it was clear from Keiths post why we did not get advance warning on this. Not because of the long open loophole on crystals... but the fact that their data showed a lot of players were exploiting the mechanics to get free tunings unlocked across their account.. one character at a time. And sure...people were doing this to bypass the unlock fee. And Keith declared this an exploit... and they DO NOT give advance notice about closing exploits.

 

Logic, common sense and good PR, however, suggests that they would have also implemented the blazingly obvious solution at the same time.

 

At the end of the day, however minor, they are punishing honest and legit players like yours truly.

[battycoda]

Crystal color is crystal color. I just won't account unlock any more and save a buck I can spend on something else that account unlocks actually work on. Go go gadget artificer.