Why did Chilling Scream get turned into a devastating AOE?

[wadecounty]

And does anyone else see a problem with this? It does stupidly high amounts of damage, when the class was already just fine in the AOE department without it. I could maybe see a skill that adds half that damage amount to it, for tanks who have issues with AOE threat in PvE, but as it stands its just broken how hard it hits.

[Torvai]

Exactly. They should get rid of this and buff Ravage for Vengeance and Furious Strike or something for Smash by roughly that amount. Problem solved Edited July 10, 2017 by Torvai

[LordZiost]

You're joking right? Vengeance and rage are completely mediocre specs, vengeance literally being the middle tier dps spec before the ranged nerfs. Nothing relating to their dps needs a nerf. Also if you want to talk about AOE, engi snipers and carny maras have similar if not better AOE numbers.

[Torvai]

No one is talking about a nerf. They should just add that damage to Ravage and be done with this stupid utility. So it's worth it to use ravage again.

I mean, what's the point about resetting Ravages cooldown every 12 secs to not use it at all because it's just that bad that it doesn't even warrant to use waste a gcd on it?

[wadecounty]

You're joking right? Vengeance and rage are completely mediocre specs, vengeance literally being the middle tier dps spec before the ranged nerfs. Nothing relating to their dps needs a nerf. Also if you want to talk about AOE, engi snipers and carny maras have similar if not better AOE numbers.

 

No I'm not joking. The problem is people only see the game in black and white, nerfs and buffs, higher and lower DPS. Forget that for a second, it makes ZERO sense for a class to have a spammable snare that also doubles as one of the highest damage AOE DOTs in the game when they already have rock solid AOE options. As the other poster said, if you're worried about the class as a whole do something sensible like add the damage back to Ravage to raise single target numbers, or tweak the spec specific stuff like Vengeance DOT damage, the damage on the initial hit of Shatter, and Rage's attacks.

 

As it stands, leaving Chilling Scream like this is just bad, awful game design. And yes I main a Jugg, this is not a nerf Juggs post, this is a "making Chilling Scream a super powerful AOE that has to be used in every DPS rotation and can be spammed by tanks for the easiest damage ever is retarded" post.

 

Now, if you're actually serious, and you legitimately think it should be left as is, then delete Vicious Slash from the Jugg's abilities. It now serves zero purpose. You can almost make the same argument for Ravage, except it costs no Rage so it still has slight utility.

Edited July 20, 2017 by wadecounty

[KendraP]

I was going to say I still use master strike (or whatever they're calling it these days) because it's free. You hest me to it! Lol. Anyway, as I said somewhere else the reliance on it sort of bugs me but it having become rather important to guardian dps I don't really trust them to not shaft us if they take it away or nerf it and buff master strike.

[Beyrahl]

Chilling scream stops caps too, huge aoe radius. They fixed other aoes but not that one

Not complaining though, love my Guardian/Juggernaut.

[Hoppinswtor]

I do agree that vengeance does far too much damage in pvp due to this utility, but it's mostly fluff.

[StoneClaw_]

To answer the original question: when bioware balanced the single target dps with an aoe ability. While their decision to do this is questionable, the end result hasn't had many downsides.

 

Piercing chill fixes the abysmal aoe and single target threat and dps that juggernaut tanks suffered in the previous patch too.

 

It also improves on the otherwise questionable aoe capabilities of rage, which is pretty important for using rage as a PvE spec.

 

As it becomes part of the rotation, it adds a rotation-based slow which juggernauts were inexcplicably missing before (save for in rage).

 

The speed boost makes mobility far more reliable, which yet again, was also an issue in the previous patch.

 

It also added a utility that can be used offensively as part of rotation. Juggernauts, unlike other classes, did not have such a thing before.

 

Also quite important, is that it breathed life into an otherwise dead and useless ability, which was certainly a refreshing change.

 

The only thing that can be said to be negative is that it adds substantial aoe damage to vengeance, which already had great aoe damage. Regardless, it alone is no more devastating nor any more spammable than any other dot in the game.

 

So, Piercing Chill is currently an ability that alone addresses multiple issues that juggernauts have faced for some time. Did it make juggernauts better? Is it wrong that one ability does all these different things? Is it wrong to have it based on an utility? Is its aoe potential too high? Should an aoe ability not be a balancing point for single target rotation? Should ravage be buffed?

 

They're all valid questions but, the only answer that can be given with certainty is that it indeed made juggernauts better when it resolved several important issues.

 

Maybe it is now time to change chilling scream. Maybe it is now time sort out the issues with juggernauts by buffing various different abilities, not just one. In the end, Bioware will see the problems they want to see and do the things they want to do. Invariably, they will get it wrong and people will be upset. It's just the way of things. "Time shall tell".

[wadecounty]

You had a couple valid points and a couple that were completely out of left field.

 

 

Piercing chill fixes the abysmal aoe and single target threat and dps that juggernaut tanks suffered in the previous patch too.

 

Juggs have not had single target threat issues since pre 2.0, and aoe threat has been fine since all the damage buffs to the tree in 3.0 or mid 3.0 (forget when they did that). You might no realize it if you don't read the skill tree but sweeping slash is actually the best spammable aoe of all 3 tanks, thanks to a nice crit buff for it in our tree, either 20 or 30% I believe. The only slight issue is we lack an easily spammable 360 aoe move like sins and PT's have, which could have been solved by giving chilling scream damage... but they gave it far too much.

 

It also improves on the otherwise questionable aoe capabilities of rage, which is pretty important for using rage as a PvE spec.

 

Agree on this one, Rage had aoe issues, but I think this could have been solved in better ways that are spec specific.

 

As it becomes part of the rotation, it adds a rotation-based slow which juggernauts were inexcplicably missing before (save for in rage).

 

Tanks could spec for a powerful slow on Smash, so only Vengeance was missing one. And again, if it was an issue, it easily could have been solved by adding a snare to a core Vengeance ability, though again there are also utilities for roots on both Ravage and Saber Throw already. The best solution imo is to add a snare to Ravage in the Vengeance tree, adding utility to the skill in PvP (I'd like to see damage added to it as well but that's a different subject).

 

The speed boost makes mobility far more reliable, which yet again, was also an issue in the previous patch.

 

What speed boost? They removed the utility that makes Chilling Scream give allies a speed boost, which never applied to us anyways, unless they made it baseline (I haven't tested it in 5.0).

 

It also added a utility that can be used offensively as part of rotation. Juggernauts, unlike other classes, did not have such a thing before.

 

To me this is not a good argument. Offensive utilities for other classes typically buff some sort of offensive cooldown, they don't turn a non-dps ability into a major part of their rotation. And again, if that's something you feel Juggs are lacking, they can do it in better ways with a better utility than this one.

 

Also quite important, is that it breathed life into an otherwise dead and useless ability, which was certainly a refreshing change.

 

Dead and useless? If you pvp'd its always had amazing value, our snare has always blown the Mara options out of the water and one of the things they are most jealous of our class for. In pve, sure, just like every other classes snares are dead and useless. Because its meant to be a snare, not provide damage.

 

The only thing that can be said to be negative is that it adds substantial aoe damage to vengeance, which already had great aoe damage. Regardless, it alone is no more devastating nor any more spammable than any other dot in the game.

 

It adds substantial aoe damage to the tank spec as well when tank spec already had tons of aoe (Crushing Blow, Sweeping Slash and Smash all get substantial damage and crit buffs in the Immortal tree). I also checked some numbers, I can look again later but factoring in the fact its internal damage and therefore not mitigatable, I'm pretty sure its the highest damaging spammable aoe any class in the game gets outside of possibly Suppressive Fire in Marksman spec, which really isn't spammable because of its extreme energy costs.

 

So, Piercing Chill is currently an ability that alone addresses multiple issues that juggernauts have faced for some time. Did it make juggernauts better? Is it wrong that one ability does all these different things? Is it wrong to have it based on an utility? Is its aoe potential too high? Should an aoe ability not be a balancing point for single target rotation? Should ravage be buffed?

 

They're all valid questions but, the only answer that can be given with certainty is that it indeed made juggernauts better when it resolved several important issues.

 

Several of your assumptions were wrong to begin with, I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle.

 

Maybe it is now time to change chilling scream. Maybe it is now time sort out the issues with juggernauts by buffing various different abilities, not just one. In the end, Bioware will see the problems they want to see and do the things they want to do. Invariably, they will get it wrong and people will be upset. It's just the way of things. "Time shall tell".

 

Let me make myself clear, I'm not posting this thread because I think anythings going to get fixed. I recently came back and I know this game is basically rounding the toilet bowl just before being flushed, and the only thing preventing that for now is the Star Wars license and cartel market whales. I'm just disgusted by some of the design decisions that are allowed to go through without any care or thought.

[Torvai]

Where do I even start?

Piercing chill fixes the abysmal aoe and single target threat and dps that juggernaut tanks suffered in the previous patch too.

Jugg tanks are and have been fine in both departments. They don't need this. And I did every content since 2.0 in NiM on tier as a jugg tank, so I defintitly know what I'm talking about here.

It also improves on the otherwise questionable aoe capabilities of rage, which is pretty important for using rage as a PvE spec.

Rages AoE capabilities are fine as well. It's a burst spec nowadays, not an aoe spec. You got vengeance for that if need be.

Apart from that, Rage is good enough for all HM content in the game. And fpr NiM it has always been so that you needed to swap specs based on the fight.

As it becomes part of the rotation, it adds a rotation-based slow which juggernauts were inexcplicably missing before (save for in rage).

Rotation based slows, let alone aoe slows are cancer to begin with. We need less of this, not more.

The speed boost makes mobility far more reliable, which yet again, was also an issue in the previous patch.

The speed bosst is nice, but we had plenty of possibilities for mobility. Charge, Dash, Enrage, Enraged Defense... I don't think it's needed. But it's nice.

It also added a utility that can be used offensively as part of rotation. Juggernauts, unlike other classes, did not have such a thing before.

No argument here. But doing it with that kind of utility is simply wrong.

Also it's the only utility in game that adds a new ability to your rotation.

Also quite important, is that it breathed life into an otherwise dead and useless ability, which was certainly a refreshing change.

The right way would have been to simply remove it. Like they did in the past with lots of other useless stuff.

Apart from that it isn't and never was useless for PvP, just situational, like any slow should be, not rotational, see above.

The only thing that can be said to be negative is that it adds substantial aoe damage to vengeance, which already had great aoe damage. Regardless, it alone is no more devastating nor any more spammable than any other dot in the game.

It does MORE FRIGGIN DAMAGE than a ravage. That alone should tell you how wrong this utility is, especially for Vengeance.

Also, the only other dot in the game comparable is corrossive grenade. And Chill hits twice as hard per tick.

So, Piercing Chill is currently an ability that alone addresses multiple issues that juggernauts have faced for some time.

Multiple non existant issues, maybe. The only real issue this fixes is the lacking damage of Juggs without it, which should have never made it to the live servers anyway. Seriously, Bioware thought "hey, we're making ravage an instant, so it has to do only half of it's damage". Ravage does less damage than the last tick of it did back in 4.0 and I'm not talking in relative numbers. That's simply stupid and the only reason this utility is used anyway outside of AoE damage.

 

They should get rid of this thing for good and buff both rages and vengeances single target dps by it's amount. Keep the speed boost. Heck, even make it group wide, or add whatever else to it, just not that.

[Bonzenaattori]

Rip aoe dots

People fine with corrosive grenade, but when juggs get one.... ohhh lord have mercy on our souls

 

Vengeance is most likely going to get buffed in 5.4 considering they view it as a Sustained Dot melee spec which should have the highest damage pool +5% something something whatever.

 

According to Bioware's philosophy, vengeance AND rage should be on par/out performing combat spec on a metric level.

Cant wait to see that happen*

 

 

*Altho we know bioware prolly just gona nerf everything instead of buffing Veng and Concentration/Focus specs

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bonzenaattori

[KendraP]

Hmm I can see both sides here.

 

As a tank I have never had any issue with threat in any circumstance really. I do hear people that do on guardians. I'm not really sure why to be honest. Certainly I actually end up using freezing force less in tank spec than in vigi at any rate.

 

For vigi, yeah it certainly adds to the dps potential. The main reason I worry of they remove it is because I'm not sure they would buff us enough elsewhere to account for the loss. I'm assuming it's a similar spot for focus, as basically everyone takes this utility as there isn't much reason to take anything else.

[Torvai]

Rip aoe dots

People fine with corrosive grenade, but when juggs get one.... ohhh lord have mercy on our souls

The difference being that CG is part of both specs design. It's an ability on it's own, you aquire it as part of the specs skill tree, it gets buffed through certain passives in the skill tree. It is even part of their resource management.

Piercing Chill on the other hand is neither part of Vengeance nor Rages design. It's just there.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Torvai

[Jevaruss]

A guildie suggested putting a cooldown on chilling scream/freezing force would solve most of the problems with it being OP as f. I'd tend to agree long as the rest of the dps gets a slight buff to compensate. Also like others here, not a fan of having a utility to an ability that changes your rotation substantially to be mandatory to get optimal dps.

[StoneClaw_]

Several of your assumptions were wrong to begin with, I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle.

 

After reading back my wall of text, this here seems to be the most accurate assessment. A lot of the points I make are far too condensed to be properly understood, so I might elaborate on some of them. As to my angle, it might not seem like it but, I'm not trying defend Piercing Chill, just rather to show maybe why Piercing Chill was designed the way it is now.

 

One thing I do now agree with is that to have a rotation ability be 100% based on an utility is afaik unprecedented and not a good idea.

 

And yes, those aren't real issues, in the exact sense. But they were areas where juggernauts were weaker compared to other classes, and probably justifiably so. Threat could've been better, movement speed could've been better, rage aoe could've been better, so on. Maybe they didn't need to be better but, Piercing Chill certainly made them better.

 

The thing I lead at near the end is that Piercing Chill's different effect could and should be implemented as parts of various different abilities if juggs are to be buffed, although that doesn't come across too well.

 

Ultimately though, what I'm trying to say, is whatever the could and should is, when Bioware gets around to changing Piercing Chill they'll likely mess juggs up and and any issues you see now will pale in comparison to what they will inflict. I mean, I hope not but, with recent class changes being what they are, I can only expect the worst.

[GrandLordMenace]

And does anyone else see a problem with this? It does stupidly high amounts of damage, when the class was already just fine in the AOE department without it. I could maybe see a skill that adds half that damage amount to it, for tanks who have issues with AOE threat in PvE, but as it stands its just broken how hard it hits.

 

Thematically, it's stupid just because of how much damage it does and how much it displaces Ravage, but it's the only thing keeping Vengeance and Rage viable atm.

 

To fix it, Ravage needs to be made into the Scoundrel roll (using it twice puts it on cooldown) and have it's damage increased. The current Jugg rotation flows far better than the old one, because ravage no longer takes up 2 GCDs back to back, but it comes at the cost of chilling scream doing a significant part of the rotational DPS. If Chilling Scream was nerfed, and Ravage could fill two SEPARATE nonconsecutive GCDs within the rotation, the rotation will be perfect.

 

Note that the two halves of Ravage have to do the same amount of damage, otherwise we end up with a situation where the rotation no longer flows or Ravage isn't used.

 

However, any changes made to chilling scream HAVE to be compensated by buffs to Ravage to preserve the flows of the rotations of all the Jugg Specs.

Edited July 21, 2017 by GrandLordMenace

[KendraP]

Thematically, it's stupid just because of how much damage it does and how much it displaces Ravage, but it's the only thing keeping Vengeance and Rage viable atm.

 

To fix it, Ravage needs to be made into the Scoundrel roll (using it twice puts it on cooldown) and have it's damage increased. The current Jugg rotation flows far better than the old one, because ravage no longer takes up 2 GCDs back to back, but it comes at the cost of chilling scream doing a significant part of the rotational DPS. If Chilling Scream was nerfed, and Ravage could fill two SEPARATE nonconsecutive GCDs within the rotation, the rotation will be perfect.

 

Note that the two halves of Ravage have to do the same amount of damage, otherwise we end up with a situation where the rotation no longer flows or Ravage isn't used.

 

However, any changes made to chilling scream HAVE to be compensated by buffs to Ravage to preserve the flows of the rotations of all the Jugg Specs.

 

Once again I agree. If you nerf or kill freezing force, master strike is the obvious buff. Otherwise we're going to suck and bad at either dps spec.

[AdjeYo]

I really hate how vital Chilling Scream is in all Jugg specs. And I would love to see it's damage reworked into more core rotational abilities. The roll-like cd idea seems cool for Vengeance, but it might not be good enough for Rage. Perhaps a straight up damage buff would be better for Rage. Also for Immortal it might make the 6% defense buff you get from Ravage get a little too much uptime. So maybe consider this idea for Vengeance and get something else for rage and immortal

[wadecounty]

Since we're theory crafting, an idea I had for Vengeance was to have Ravage cause a tick of every dot you have active, every time it strikes the enemy. So you could theoretically get 9 extra ticks out of your dots if you have all 3 up. Kinda like Lethal Shot with Snipers except that got nerfed.

 

Then again, that might be a bit overpowered. I'm not sure exactly how much extra damage that works out to.

[verfallen]

to put thing into perspective about chilling scream's aoe...

 

Sniper's orbital strike does comparable damage, with 45s cooldown, and 2 sec cast time, and 20 energy cost.

 

Hard to say which is the highest dps, orbital strike hits slightly harder, but on 1 more second duration.

[cool-dude]

Exactly. They should get rid of this and buff Ravage for Vengeance and Furious Strike or something for Smash by roughly that amount. Problem solved

 

chilling scream is sort of useless, while ravage is completely useless to a rage juggernaut; as neither reduce the cd of raging burst or enrage. If you aren't using abilities that reduce the cd of your two main abilities, you're losing dps.

[Torvai]

That's why I said Furious Strike or something else for Smash. And yes, I still and always will refer to Rage as Smash

[AdjeYo]

chilling scream is sort of useless, while ravage is completely useless to a rage juggernaut; as neither reduce the cd of raging burst or enrage. If you aren't using abilities that reduce the cd of your two main abilities, you're losing dps.

 

Not entirely true, between every two Raging Bursts, you can use (apart from Obliterate) one ability that doesn't reduce the cd on obliterate and raging burst. So you could use Force Crush in one rotation, and Ravage in the other. Thing is, Chilling Scream pushes Ravage out because it's much better. But if they buff ravage and nerf chilling scream, ravage will probably be used rotationally by rage again

[Kyuuu]

my mind is blown, by people here Chilling scream utility for aoe damage is anything but devastating AOE, it fluff damage at best, and ravage is also anything but useless.