A preferred player’s perspective on Population decline

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I like what you have said in a couple of your posts. Your responses are very thought out as well as thought provoking. I agree that they - and other MMO developers - have not captured the heart of the true MMO player. But the MMO player is as varied as there are flavors of ice cream. The significant portion that SWTOR left out were the farmers. These are the folks who log in everyday to tend their plot of land or other industry - and then participate in a few FPs, Heroics, or ops... maybe even some pvp. Will they ever be the top raiders/pvpers? Of course not... but they provide the bodies that some posters here are referring to as "content". This is a major way to find a steady population... ones that aren't entitled leeches. How hard would it be to make space on some of these planets to do those kinds of activities? Water farming (or something that biochem needs) on Tatooine, for example. Other industries could provide other items that crafters/endgamers need. This is something that they could still do.

 

to be fair farming as we know it in this game (aside from bots and other automated cheating activities) are stymied by not having a subscription which is good. In that I mean you cannot get all crew skills and have a credit cap to make the most of those activities. That's a great restriction imo as I don't see it impacting anyone else but the person not subbing. Keeping them out of MMO content though ... that hurts me with my ability to find groups which is why I would prefer more restrictions around things like the farming part and less on actual MMO content just to help boost that MMO content population and make it more enjoyable for the paying customers.

 

 

The other thing that I think they really fell down on was housing. I've lost count of how many folks have asked me to come look at their spread... Its all over the forum about how people like to decorate and then to display their hard work... So they provided housing that is isolated in separate instas instead of making space for communities where people can walk through as well as socialize in - think of Christmas time when many just get into the car and go for a drive to look at the lights. Yeah, they provided a way to publicly list your place - but how many times have you looked at more than the top one or two on the listing? If you make your MMO so that people can find community, then they will come and stay - and they will happily spend their $15 bucks a month doing it. DAOC did it right and that was back in the early 2000s. Whole guilds were able to locate close together near their guild house. I spent many hours just riding my horse through and looking at the creativity and identifying possibilities for my place.

 

Yeah player housing feels more tacked on than anything else, especially with Manaan - which whilst I appreciate it and aren't as anti it as many others - I still feel it was clearly rushed through. Another point ot housing is bloody conquest - encouraging people to splat max decorations possible to get more conquest points. Horribly system, they should not be linked.

 

F2P is really a lie when it comes right down to it. There is very little "Free" in F2P. That's why the cash shop is so integral in the F2P model.

 

100's of hours of solo content (the best content this game has to offer) imo isn't really "very little" though. These days it's like they are restricting the wrong content. Restrict the MMO content and affect paying customers but leave them to run solo content as much as they like. If you swapped that then the only person hurt by a restriction on solo content is the person not paying. They can still join me in operations/wz's so I can help get my fill of that content though.

 

 

It separates the leeches, along with everyone else, from their money. "Free-to-Pay" is a very descriptive term that I heard many times. It feels alot like a bait and switch - "Come play our game for free" and when you get there the company has their hand out every time you turn around. This is why I don't understand players putting up with it - but as long as people spend their money in this way, a company will deliver this kind of model to capture that revenue. And people blindly accept this as a normal part of their gaming experience.

 

The company used to offer passes remember which allowed free player to offset the cost by earning those passes from someone else who paid. Clearly the producers figured this wasn't making enough money and stopped it which imo probably just drove more people away than actually made them more money.

The issue with passes was the silly referral coins we get, that should be stopped right now so you know if it's a CM item it had real money spent on it in some way (the only free coins then are the subscription ones meaning you paid a sub at least).

 

I don't buy it. And I don't buy the "Let's give them more for free so they come play our game. We only spend money to make new content and new flashy things to put in the cash shop. So that's all we should charge anyone for anyway." $15 bucks a month is not alot to put together to enjoy hours of enjoyment each month. I don't feel even a twinge of heartache for those who won't subscribe to the online game(s) they wish to play.

 

Neither do I but I think it could be done better to encourage more people to play and also make my personal experience better due to more people to paly with. YMMV depending on the content you do in regards to having more people around helping or not.

 

 

I agree with your point about slow leveling - but also return the challenge to playing the lower levels as well. But not just for newbies... I think the challenge should be there for everyone. When I make a new class it is extremely difficult to really learn the whole class in the current structure. Its in those low levels that one really learns their class inside and out. I say don't dumb down the game into easy mode. Working through the challenges of the lower levels is what contributes to a better player at the higher levels. Making a game easy mode is not a way to retain players. Taking away the challenge reduces the fun factor.

 

Agree, it's a sorry state of affairs the leveling at the moment. It's beomce a challenge of "how do I become weak enough to make this combat fun but not impossible" instead of trying to figure out how to get stronger. It's almost become a bit of an interactive movie in some ways except one with lots of annoying running around to get to the next part. I preferred it vanilla and if they wanted to streamline it just streamline the trash you have to face and travel time - that's all that was needed.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The main reason I don't like F2P is because it allows a lot more gold seller traffic. Before F2P came in there were basically no spam messages. I think I saw one spam message in an in game mail. I reported it and it was never heard of again.

 

For that reason alone, I like to avoid F2P in MMOs.

 

Fair point though I think there could of course be more done to police/restrict this within the F2P model and this game for whatever reasons sees fit to pretty much let it go in unfettered.

 

F2P also meant a cash shop. One of the most nefarious things ever made in the MMO genre as far as I'm concerned is cartel packs. High priced gambling packs that particularly in combination with a content drought after 3.0 came out meant that they also doubled as high priced surrogate content that subs had to pay for as well.

 

Currently it still is a disgusting method of running stronghold decoration supplies. I actually love decorating but because it costs hundreds of dollars/euros for each pack that comes out or hundreds of millions of credits in game to buy them, it's just really not moral anymore.

 

I do not believe in F2P, not because of the F2P players but because of gold sellers and excessive greed from the game company. The worst was that people spending that much on cartel packs didn't even translate into investment into new group content.

 

I can't comment too much towards packs because I love them. I have never paid a cent for them yet have opened 1000's from buying with credits. I make billions this way, have 1000's of CM items and get enjoyment from this aspect of the game. I love opening packs though if I had to pay cash for them ... no way so I see where you come from.

 

BW Austin were just arrogant thinking they new best and so it took months before they even acknowledged there was a problem. I still remember the threads from people that were asking if they saw it right that BW was closing over 100 servers. Now we have 17 servers, but most of the 200 servers were already closed in 2012. And even with 17 servers there are people asking for merges because a bunch of them are very low population.

 

I still like the game for the positives in it, but BW has done more to the game than for the game it feels like sometimes.

 

My point on raids vs class content was I wonder if more time could have been put in to avoid those issues had they not put so much into so much class content that within the first year I doubt if 5% of the players who had paid for the game had done half the class stories anyway (made up guesstimate % )

[MeNaCe-NZ]

WoW was not the first MMO

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/98/51/fa/9851fa42e2bcec7217ec17b84e9d4736.jpg

[Marmeladix]

(is so unfair, you all cut in front of me all the time on this topic, so I have to step up my game)

 

This thread started with a problem. And more than just one. All participants in the discussion pointed as more of a problem this and that or the other that. Then advanced a possible solution, options, variants, alternatives... Some see the problem in the system, some in the ppl, some in the method, some in the timing, and of course in the omniabsent money...and corresponding the solution in changing the factors to obtain a better result.

 

Well, using the peripheral view may help, since focusing seems to have made you completely miss the essence, the apex problem. You know what the unique essential fundamental problem is in all this?

 

There is no problem. None. Nada.

 

Sure, there are many problems, many issues that can or could be improved, all contribute to generating a peculiar effect and result. Only all are secondary at best or are tertiary or further down on the cause>effect>cause>_ chain, branching out more bushy than an old boabab. The main problem however is not here. It never was and never will be. We all here are just howling at the moon. This is why all this conversation leads to absolutely nothing. And so will remain. Will produce 0 effects. No matter how sharp that idea or that plan presented here may be, not a comma at least will not be moved for one space further.

 

None. Nada.

 

Here is the why, revealed by returning to the grandiose „influencer program” and its indisputable value. Considering the elements, the factors, operations and results of the 'mathematical function', if one puts in the balance 10k of the same complain, coming through the channels from 10k subscribers, against RNG for example, amounting to 100k of substantial posts, with one single whisper of only 10 words coming from an influencer with some influence, well ... the latter weighs much much more and pulls down the scale on his side!

(you would not expect I hope to pull it up, right?! evidence and results confirm that the heavier word pulls the balance down, thus population declines)

So what would be the result of those clashing ideas/suggestions/demands? Will the boss do as many plebeian beg or what the one influencer states that is best? Which is the result in fact?

 

None. Nada.

 

Still, that is not the main problem. The essence problem is even further.

 

(but I'll get back to that...or not, depends, since it makes no kind of difference...none? nada?)

Edited July 20, 2017 by Marmeladix

[jpscjpsc]

Amazing way of completely missing the point. Pretty much all MMOs do indeed start out like this and they all make that same mistake as I mentioned. Have you perhaps noticed that pretty much all these MMOs didn't get close to the success of WoW?

 

Of course WoW didn't start that way and it took years to get there, but these other MMOs starting coming out when WoW was already in a solid position. And by deluding themselves by thinking they could do the same bare start as WoW they never really got close to competing with WoW.

 

That was the whole point I was making. Once it's been done and a certain standard is reached, that is the standard. Starting lower than the benchmark is just not very smart and no MMO therefore managed to rival WoW. If you want to compete with WoW you need to have a higher standard for your game release.

 

They all thought by bringing something cool or specific they could corner that market but the shiny wears off soon enough and then what you have left is an MMO that doesn't even come close to what's already out there. SWTOR had story and Star Wars, but within a month the mass exodus started and within a year most servers were already closed.

 

Why?

 

Because in my view they made a game with some cool shinies but forgot that they were competing with seasoned MMOs that were the benchmark and they didn't even get close to meeting it.

 

No game company can afford to build the current WoW state from day 1. Not even Blizzard could afford that, otherwise we'd probably have a StarCraft MMO. There is a reason why new MMOs continue to use a similar model, its financially feasible. I was agreeing with you on the whole though, SWTOR had every opportunity (i.e massive financial backing) to be a WoW killer but they failed.

[Marmeladix]

... resuming about the peak problem >

 

But after all, despite his major contribution to the game's overall functionality and his significant influence, the influencer is only a hired hand, a temporary, a seasonal workman, a labourer, 'an illegal mexican farm-hand in Texas'. The decision to do that instead of this was never his to make.

 

The same situation is with all the people from Bioware Studio Austin, that tends to the game. So on is with all the subcontractor teams and freelancers that contribute somehow to the development of the game and all the surrounding activity. All are employees. Hired hands. Hirelings. They break their back for a living. They are alike the .... kidnapped africans freight over ocean in holds of sailing ships, to work on cotton fields. They are today's 'slaves on the plantation'. (Ah, the good old times, what blooming business that was, if the population declined was so easy resupplied with a fresh herd...) Their part is not to make the weighty decisions. It never was.The developers part is the work.

 

Even 'the man', the 'slave-driver', the 'boss-man with the whip', someone like Ben or Keith or whichever may be, is also 'a ******', is only one of employees, one 'sweating under the south's scorching sun' like all the others. The main decision is not his either. Never was. His part is also the work and he is rewarded if 'the harvested cotton' brings profit, or else he gets demoted 'to work in the field or sold out'.

 

Sure, the developers do a lousy job, only normal after all. Why would 'a slave' have any ardour 'to work in the cotton field'? He would rather soldier than be a soldier. (or something) They work by the motto:

„at every patch we shrug, and introduce a bug”

In their contracted work, first terms stipulate that they must obey Murphy's law: "If the plan is perfect, you must find a way to screw it"... but this is beside the point. What matters is that the main decision is not theirs to make. No more than the money toll decisions was/is/will be with the forum bouncers, the graceful fairy maidens responsible to tackle nasty posts like this one. (And nasty posters, of course, like myself.)

 

Thus the essence of the problem is not here, it has nothing to do with this place or any of the ones involved here. The Owner, 'the plantation and slaves Master' has the decision. Only Him. No1 else. His whim decides. And He never ever hears 'the buzzing insects among the cotton plants on His vast lands'. He does not care what His 'slaves' would have to say. Do you imagine that The Owner takes advice from the 'slave overseer'? You have the illusion that The Man reads one single word of this forum or any other? That He involves Himself with you and responds to you? That He could care about your 'preferred player perspective' or about the game's 'population decline'?

 

Get real Nethrazhur, bring your 'cotton sack' to the cashier to get your leftovers dish and please close this subject before I write some more. Please.

 

Have a very NIce day!

Edited July 22, 2017 by Marmeladix

[Tsillah]

No game company can afford to build the current WoW state from day 1. Not even Blizzard could afford that, otherwise we'd probably have a StarCraft MMO. There is a reason why new MMOs continue to use a similar model, its financially feasible. I was agreeing with you on the whole though, SWTOR had every opportunity (i.e massive financial backing) to be a WoW killer but they failed.

 

Well, I wasn't suggesting that content wise it should be equally big, but PvP only had a few warzones, guild sizes were too small and there just weren't many guild options and support and legacy storage took years. There was no group finder etc.

 

It's particularly what I call MMO amenities that concerned me in SWTOR as they were lacking and the truth is that the game launched with one raid that was buggy as hell. That is also not a good start. They should've started with 2 and announce before launch that the third was on the way to be released in month 3 for example. Also their communication didn't do them any favours.

 

And I honestly didn't expect SWTOR to start with the same amount of content as WoW but there were a lot of QoL items that should've been there from the start. BW just thought that because it was Star Wars people would forgive all of that.

 

Clearly they were wrong.

 

A new MMO just needs to be a real step up from an MMO release from years before. You cannot start at the same point zero and expect people to be happy with that. In the end an MMO is about having different activities for different player types. Leveling and story was good. FP's were actually pretty good in the early days but no group finder.

 

Anyways, I agree with you that content-wise a new game doesn't have to match a 10 year old game but as far as tools and general amenities for storage, travel, guilds, etc. SWTOR just really aimed way too low at start.

 

And sadly everything that did finally get added to the game took a long time and are often not implemented very well. The GF is an example and GSF and Strongholds are others. All good ideas, but with a list of frustrations that shouldn't have been as long as it is now. It's the avoidable issues that I am concerned with because they don't seem to look around and see what works well in other games.

 

Strongholds or housing is not new. They went for a hook system that people complained about before it came out. I'm ok with using hooks, but if you're going to do a hook system then for the love of anything, take care that you do proper hook placement. They haven't and they still don't. That's a fundamental thing for me. If you take the lesser option, then do it well please. They took the lesser option and do a shoddy job at it. Manaan being the latest but not the first.

 

They really need to start having an overview of what they're doing and what the impact is. PvP is a prime example. They never developed it and we still only have unranked and ranked warzones. The Odessen warzone is the only thing you could consider new in the word of SWTOR PvP. GSF was a nice idea or variation on PvP but again, poor implementation with too few maps and maps that support and encourage long-range camping of objectives and a clunky UI where you manage your ship components and crew etc.

 

An MMO needs to make money and keep people playing over longer periods of time. You need to look at your target audience because diversity means more investment into gameplay types.

 

I wonder what would've happened if SWTOR had really focused on the stories and FPs and not do any raiding for example. In the end it might have attracted fewer people initially but kept more of them over time. Then at some point you could add raids if there was enough of a demand for it. The difference is that it becomes an extra and not an expectaction.

 

Starting with 200 servers that are now 17 servers and most closing within the first year cannot be what you are hoping for as a developer.

[DDaMAGEr]

Giving away the store for FREE is NOT the answer, IMO.

It would be true, if there was something tangible. Yet there's only bunch of units and zeros. l also would understand if devs made e.g. some kind of shiny vehicle, costume set, pet, weapon model etc, and ask e.g. 10K Cartel Coins for that (and respectively come for dozens of M on GTN). It's completely voluntary stuff, not necessary part of the system; thus OK with it.

TS now proposes pretty mild measures, and but l would add (because of mentioned by him inflation as well) significant Cash Cap increase, e.g. 2M for F2P and 3.5M for Prefs. Locking content, OTOH, should go away foreva. Not sure who made this idiotical decision about locking OPs for non-subs, obviously he was drunken or under some other influence.

Generally it was like slight instant profit - HUEG loss in future. Truth it crushed the game population with very heavy blow, turning good part of servers into the ghost towns. l think the sooner this foolishness will be unmade - then less consequences for the game will be in the long run.

 

P.S.: generally l'm a subber, but suffer from that unspeakably bright serendipious overdecision - you can't even imagible how much! NiM's are not puggable anymore, HM - only KP and EV are run! The only way to get 248 gear is Command Crates by now. It's a such nonsensical nonsense, that it needs to be being stopped right at the time l'm writing this post! The first letter in "MMORPG" will mean "Minimal", if not "Mono" (regarding to dev as the only person remained in this game) if these steps won't be made sooner than ASAP.

Edited July 22, 2017 by DDaMAGEr

[Marmeladix]

So, the compendium of 23/24 pages with posts is:

 

BW wants more money

 

Period.

Since the soft skills used by Bw to make players pay more, like for example the subliminal attempts to influence the public perception through influencers, failed, it had to resort to forcing some into subscription and cast out the free raiders.

This was the only lever left to use and to prove BW means business.

Many still do not get it, still contemplate idyllic moments from the past, get „perspectives”, write motions, suggestions, complains, criticism?! but no matter, BW resolution stays.

 

Thus:

 

pay up or you will never ever again see the parts of the game reserved from now on only for the ones that

jump up with the buck

 

... or for free you can go and look on 'the tube' how it looks what you can not play, since you do not pay.

 

Ergo:

 

No pay = No play

 

 

(did we really needed 23+ pages of discussions to get to this simple reality of a fiction galaxy game? many of us could really use some 'back-end maintenance' imop.)

 

(ps. no1 wrote here a word since 3 days ago and I predict that very soon after this post goes life, some1 will; could some1/2 reveal how come?)

[PiiTarr]

It would be true, if there was something tangible. Yet there's only bunch of units and zeros.

 

That "bunch of units and zeros" costs dollars to produce, maintain, and make available for players to use. Above and beyond the operating costs, there needs to be a profit, or EA will no longer have an incentive to allow BW to continue to produce, maintain, and make available that "bunch of units and zeros."

[Marmeladix]

So Bioware wants more money.

Let me get strait to the point,

with a wide detour:

 

Some very long time ago, in an other era, but still in BW domain&reign, a patch was issued.

(Sry, I can not remember when it was or what the patch contained.)

(Must have been something totally insignificant for what I was playing at that time.)

Two things I remember for sure about the patch in question.

First, declaratory at least, it contained nothing major regarding graphics.

Second, it had absolutely nothing at all to do with/on/around/under/inside/... the planet Rishi.

With the patch a bug occurred.

(Also, nothing out of the ordinary... would have been a wonder if there was no emerging bug.)

Although in the patch there was nothing related to Rishi, something in it made the first 2 bridges to vanish.

A bug.

Nothing special about it.

In fact the bridges were still in place, on their spots, functional, a player could run on them, but all the textures were gone.

Only the bridges were utter invisible.

Not much of a bug, since it did not impede the journeys over the 100% transparent first 2 bridge sections out of 3 or 4...

But that bug was 'houmongous'.

That bug had 'biblical proportions', not by itself, but by how much time it took the patcher/s to remedy what he/they himself/themselves had broken.

(This also I remember quite well.)

Almost 2 months, t-w-o m-o-n-t-h-s BW needed to repair the damage it caused.

Not a week, not 2, nor 3 weeks, a month was not enough, but close to 2 months had to pass to just restore some textures in a certain 3D section of the game BW Austin developers and maintains.

A legendary bug that was.

That bug was known even to those who at the time had no access to Rishi (Shadow of Revan), from the mocking convos that were over the chats at times, like: „did they fixed the bridge on Rishi” - „no, still missing'.

 

 

Beside the obvious necessary restoration of the bridge's lost texture, that after about 2 months has been done, the whole BW embarrassing and stain reputation could have been avoided.

It would not have needed much to make amendments and avoid the shame of generating a texture bug that took so so so very long to renovate.

Imop it could suffice to plant on the entry of the bridge a simple billboard, a panel, a road sign, a merely white rectangle with some writing in black fonts, could have been handwriting, feather writing...a kid under 10 year playing with simplest paint editor could have draw that, that little work was needed.

For the next level of development, there could have been used a color billboard with dynamic lights, with warning lights, at both ends of the unseen bridge parts.

For the next level could have been added some mouse droids to give tours over the missing bridge.

For the next level a couple of crier droids could have been deployed, to announce the same as the road sigh, that a certain pirate gang from the Cove has deployed a stealth device on the bridge, to disrupt business and to discourage the travelers, but the bridge is safe to travel upon, measures have been taken to remedy the situation soon and the culprits will be punished.

For the next level some detection droids could have been added, like scanning from place to place to locate the sabotage device or some lasers like making parts of the bridge shady visible at times.

For the next level a new mission giver could have been installed, with a simple one of taking down a number of pirates of that gang, or a more complicated mission to investigate, to locate, to repair, to decode, to retaliate, to cut a deal, a one time or a daily or a weekly mission... anything would have worked.

For the next level an achievement could have been added, making the whole story, fitting the planet and the place, into a one-time unique event or made it into a seasonal... players would have flocked to take it and one week could have been more than enough to do any of the above and much more.

Thus, from simplest to the most complex, any method could have been used to cover for the fact that it was a BW made bug, a slip, a negligence, a omission, a leakage, a silly, a...

The most important of all, if anything would have been done in that direction, it would not have mattered at all how much time was needed to restore the texture or if that was still necessary to be done anymore.

Also, there would have been „no bug” in the eyes of the players, even if some may have suspected, the doubts would have been more than reasonable, that all was done on purpose, to reignite the interest for Rishi.

BW reputation and respect from the players for the developing work would have escaped strengthened from the failure that bug in fact was.

It would have been so easy to turn a disaster into success.

That was such a missed opportunity.

Most likely it was not not the only one the developers missed.

That one however was visible from the highest orbit, but still lost.

Of course, to notice what happened and what could have been creative done to turn the table, one should have been playing the game, one should have not just launch the game and let some char idle for the rest of the day to just reach „?k hours of gaming”, one should have had some brains, one should have not imagination gaps, one should have had the initiative and the permissions to address the issue, one should have not been busy to trim his beard and prevent the nuclear explosion of the washing machine, one...

 

So Bioware wants more money.

Let me get strait to the point...

 

 

(my prediction was 'on the money'. I issue it again and I request and explanation!

how come no1 resurrects this subject - I left it on purpose untouched for days - but soon after I post something, some1 has something meaningful to say too?!

pls explain it, or I will, and it can not get worst that that!!! )

[Marmeladix]

So Bioware wants more money.

Again, I'll step direct to the point

...with a very short introduction:

 

 

This is not from ancient Bioware's Swtor times, but from present, even from 'present tense' I could say it is, since some are so 'tense' when we discuss about money more than about people.

 

A few days ago, last week a guildie asked in chat for some advice. He was in the chapter Profit and Plunder and could not pass a code locked door. We were only 2 others in the guild that could not offer him nothing useful.

 

Some long time ago this guild was not weak or insignificant and almost non-existent, as it is now. I've earned along many others the titles „conqueror of ...” for all the planets, except of course the latter one, Iokath. For this I have no hope to ever get, unless I'll 'jump ship' or remain among the last 10 active players on this server... maybe will not be so long until then, so there could yet be hope!

 

I could not offer any advice to my guildie, since I did play the chapters when were released, only once, only in sm, so I did not retained many details about 'Profit and Plunder'. Not my thing. Because I've upgraded now my gear to a decent level, when there is nothing of interest to play and I still have time, I take on a chapter in veteran and master mode, to color the gray dots. Two days after the question I got to play the same chapter too, spamming of course all videos like chased by a 'black mamba snake money' = that much I love to re-re-re see the animations&story&___ I had no issue to go through it in veteran mode. There are in fact 2 entry points protected by codes that one needs to obtain. So I started it again in master mode, hardest of all.

 

In some chapters there are huge differences between veteran and master, some I could in no way pass in master mode. I'll try those again sometime, toward the end of the year most likely, when the 'hate crates' maybe will pity grant me at least 2 more 248 pieces I could use, to own more than half of the full 14 top gear items, just before Bioware will return all my hard earned gear into dust, into their own „Profit and Plunder” I could add, again, same as before, done again and again by raising the tier and lvl, but PERFORCE leaving behind the last top gear like filthy rags, like the preferred players, like a ...

 

In „profit and Plunder” I could not feel much difference from veteran to master mode, except that I've encountered the bug my guildie was asking about. It occurs at the second code closed gate. There is a mesh fence with a gate in the middle, formed by 2 solid side gliding doors in a thick solid frame. There are 2 guards just by that gate. One of them, the right side one is an officer and has the code one needs to open that gate and move on. Easy to take down.

 

(So easy, that in fact it reminded me of a special scene in the classical Snow White cartoon made by Disney > the seven dwarfs were mining some diamonds/gems, testing them with a hammer... and at the end of the work day, after stepping out of the cave, a horizontal mine with a door that was, the last one was locking the cave door with a key, then hanged the key in a nail stuck in the door frame... I can not imagine how could I associate something Bioware does now with something that Disney himself did so very long time ago...)

 

The bug is like this: when your char or comp takes out that officer, at times it falls through the mesh fence or inside the massive gate frame. Like atomized, it may fall down on the other side of a metal fence, through a presumed solid object. Is an obvious programming bug/slipout/fail/mistake/error/flaw/... you get the idea - Is something that should not exist - Nowhere - Period - but it does. The fallen officer still projects the yellow vertical beam, the indication that it is an item you must have, but if the ability that finished that npc pushed it inside the bulky object prolonged up to the ceiling, the player can not see that beam, so it does not loot that unless he already knows where to search for or by accidental chance places the mouse somewhere where it changes into the hand.

My guildie was unlucky to encounter that bug on the first run of the 'Profit and Plunder' chapter. He ended out by replaying the chapter from start and the second time he had no problem. I was more rng-like fortunate to encounter the respective bug only on my 3-th run of the chapter 13... maybe if that number was skipped, less bugs would have been reported to BW's 'Profit and Plunder'.

 

How come top professionals like Bioware's stuff can market unfinished parts of their product... how come something so obvious remained unnoticed... but let's ask this latter.

 

Imop, if the programmer responsible to do that work was just incapable, for no matter what reason, to make all the layers coherent, to prevent a dead nps to fall inside a solid object, at least some1 that would have tested and played 'Profit and Plunder' a few times could have found out what can go wrong in that spot, what it does go wrong for one that plays, that uses Bioware's product as a subscriber, not as a preferred. There was a simple solution: to move the X. If that guard was placed only a couple of feet further from that gate, it could no longer be projected inside that. How complicated would have been to adjust a few numbers, so 'the X that marks the bug' would be beyond bugging? Is there at Bioware Austin no1 capable to take care of such minor details?

 

I've solved the situation, managing to open that gate without needing to start all over the chapter 13, then I informed my 2 other guildies about what the bug was and how it needed to be tricked. One commented that npc falling inside objects happened quite a lot in Star fortress missions and once such a bug made him mad, for he could not loot a deco from a beam inside a thick object, since the npc fell too far to reach.

 

I confirm that it happened for npc to fall inside solids, it seems that more in the latter developed parts of the game, than in the older ones. The quality of the product seem to have been better before. More irritating is when a player's char falls in an other layer, like for example a delayed in the second phase of Soa's fight, in one of the oldest raid operations developed by Bioware, The Eternity Vault, if it misses the retreat and falls, is lost, can not be located anymore and revived...that BW bug is there left untouched by BW for how many years now?

 

 

So Bioware wants more money.

Of course.

>

Edited July 28, 2017 by Marmeladix

[Marmeladix]

Bioware wants more money.

 

I do fully understand it and can not disagree at all. Beside that is in human nature to want more and more, some without any limits or logic or shame, like some preferred players and f2freloaders do for example, Bioware is entitled to more money. Is obvious and it is indisputable.

 

Why?

 

Because Bioware develops more than reality. Because inside certain technical parameters and some fixated story guidelines, Bioware Austin can develop without restrictions, without limitations, with no boundaries and so BW did/does. BW created many different landscapes and settlements with all kind of buildings, a wide variety of npc creatures and devices that function, that act and react, space ships and planets... a galaxy in fact, developed out of nothing. BW has developed a universe. BW continues to develop this wonderful universe. Is a CREATOR's job what BW does, only a DEITY can do this.

 

Of course, the wonderful ppl that work for BW paycheck and for this SW universe to develop, use some tools and must respect some framing, but aside from that, all they develop is out of their own heads, out of their imagination, out of their own minds.

 

They develop something out of nothing.

 

Not every people can do this, most of the humans do nothing creative for the duration of their entire pitiful life.

(Nobody can not consider as 'creative' the scratching of the self-red-monkey's-as...something!).

 

This is why BW people are special. So very special! They did&do more and they are entitled to more. More and more. More than reality. More real money for more surreal. More payment for more imagination. More dollars for more fiction.

 

How come?

 

The work Bioware's Demigods do can not be quantified.

Their performance can not be assessed.

Their Creation can not be judged by some savanna or mountain apes.

They are like living eternal on the Mount Olympus, like Gods beyond and above all mortals.

So of course BW staff wants what they deserve and they sure deserve much much more than what they get.

Bioware wants more money.

 

(I for one am just too limited to say here all the words about what I imagine that they deserve, since I have no imagination at all : ( but limitations a lot.)

 

Only...

there is a catch!

 

There may be a problem. They may have a problem. This is an other problem, beside their problem that they do not get enough money. So here it is what it may be as a special problem for some special people:

 

Since Bioware's out-of-mind-imagination-specialists work with their imagination so much, are so highly dedicated and so very much involved with their imaginative work, in special to create a realistic fictional universe, with its all kind of flaws and imperfections and mismatches and deviations and... like the real world has, well, since they do use so much their imagination, an imagination that is anyway above and beyond the crouched bud of imagination an average Joe may have...or not....

 

is possible that by using the imagination so much

 

Bioware's may have lost the contact with the reality.

 

It is only one possibility that BW collects as much money as it deserves.

It is possible that BW earns more than is worth.

It may be possible that the BW people only imagine that they should get more money, that there are means for them to use in order to gain more money.

Imagination can play tricks.

Some ppl fell for it.

It can happen.

How would it be if BW's imaginative people would imagine that they are being payed more money than their merits and that they should in fact not crave for more money in exchange for their work, but kiss the feet of the one that pays them as much money as he does now for what they perform?

 

Can you imagine this or is it beyond your imagination?

Edited July 30, 2017 by Marmeladix

[Tsillah]

Did this thread just go to the twilight zone or what?

[Marmeladix]

(The "twilight" favors a certain "perspective" = that is in the title of "thread" or is it not?)

[Eshvara]

I wouldn't mind having that job, seems simple enough and if it's good money, hit me up EA!

[Marmeladix]

So, preferred players and even f2p would like open access to all this great game has to offer?

Like equal to what subs have??

With no restrictions at all???

 

(... maaaaan, how can it be to meet delusional ppl all over... just before one had the nerve to ask me „how can I know that the imps were cheating”, after I voiced it in a huttball, after we had been squashed in 10 min. with the score 0-6... I had to repeat to him twice „CHEAT ENGINE”, the injector that ******* allows without restriction to be used...and he still did not got it... delusional ppl all over....beside******* )

 

You preferred players that want full access, you realy should learn to count your blessings! You do not realize what favor BW did to you and how lucky you are to NoT have access!

If BW would have really despised you, it would have granted you full access to command crates for example... and that would have been a real punishment.

 

Me for example, on the char I did play most and passed with it long time ago like 500 crates or so

(but on the rep side - my bad! and not cheating - my mistake!)

... I have 12 out of all 14 248 gear pieces (+2 still 246), half of which I purchased with components earned in wz, through countless loosing matches that worn me out.

 

If BW would have wanted to make fun of you and treat you like cast out, they would have granted you access to those burial coffins at a lower RNG setting.

 

Let's assume, by my real experience, that the drop rate of top gear is about 1/40.

( ... in my case was never that high, would have been really great to have that, no, not the case at all!)

Let's assume that for a sub the drop rate is 1(one) 248 gear piece in 40 crates. If devs would have turned it into 1/4000 for pref (and 1/4000000 for f2p)... how would that have been for you?

You imagine they do not know how to add a few more zeros? But that is their main activity! To work with zeros. And one/units. But mostly with zeros. The work defines the man who does it, it shapes him. This is who they are.

Plus, if you pref-player would get the item in the very first CC for example, then your next 3999 would have to be as empty as are mine(most of!) - then, after 4000 the counter would reset to give you one more item in one of the next 4000 caskets, a random one. That would have been a pain. imop.

 

I do complain that I have to grind for gear? and that the new year in only 5 months away and is not enough time for me to see a full 248 set on my char?? until again they will un-random turn it all into dust??? Well I restrain myself to complain, even if I do at times, but you...

Man, you are the one that won the lottery, not me.

As a pref you are relived of drowning in millions of gallons of false hopes, turning into tons of nightmarish frustrations.

You got the sweetest deal ever man:

- you pay nothing so you do have access at nothing,

while

- I pay something and have full access at almost same nothing as you!

 

Really, get real pls!

Stop complaining or they may listen to you one random day, will do it some random way and you will get random multiplication misery!

Pls offer an apology to the ones that really made the right decision in your best interest!

 

Specially you Nethrazhur should apology , since you are to blame for all this...commotion!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Marmeladix
booze...and the Cheat Engine users.

[Marmeladix]

So about putting the boxes in „perspective”, I'll share a bit of mine.

 

Some very long time ago (must have been sometime in the cretacic), while building up my first char, there was one gear vendor at the fleet that had some boxes and was selling those for coms; green and blue; there were stacks of those on shelves; not being in a guild at the time, I asked on general chat what was inside, only as usual, as most of the times happens, my noob question was only opportunity for respondents to make fun of me; nothing unusual in fact, after all, is only natural that some ppl involved with the game would make fun of other ppl involved with the game, since the whole point to play the game is to have fun; thereby one must adapt and so I did purchased one box to find out for myself; inside the box there was a piece of gear that it turned out to be, of course, totally useless; that was the only time I purchased one of those type of boxes; beside those there was one type much more expensive, one singular purple box; those I did purchase quite a few, every time I had enough coms I'd pay for one; inside those also there were pieces of gear that I did not use, not at least one for one hour; the only use for those was to sell immediate to the same vendor for creds, for in those days the right way to play the game was to play it for creds and those pieces were worth quite a lot.

 

So same RNG gearing system did reign boxes since very long time ago.

Maybe those old boxes were very successful, maybe ppl were buying those like it were hotdog and/or burger and I was an exception to see them as worthless; the devs should have been able to check the number of sold boxes containing RNG gear, must of seen that those had a huge appeal, that were very attractive to players and were purchased faster than the factory could produce them, otherwise why and how and where from could the main one concept dev have had come up with this marvelous plan to develop and multiply and multiply the multiplied into the RNG command crates that is now in use?!

 

Some suggest that the template was not those early boxes, but it was the packs > in order to subtle induce into ppl minds the need/urge/impulse to pay real money for packs with some gear inside, to buy for cartel coins packs that look like crates, they provided some other type of containers looking like crates, they did put all sort of rewards in crates,so ppl perceive the crates as a good thing and move on to open the wallets in order to open more crates.

 

Which was it?

The devs communication may have been improved, it may now contain a bit more meat, up to the quantity found for real inside a burger or a hotdog, but some aspects will never ever be revealed to the public.

This is my own perspective.

 

Anyway, the RNG command crates is a system that replaced the previous system and most likely will be replaced in only a few months from now by yet an other system. This is it. This is what they can do and what devs do. Is a system better than other systems, worst than others... it is as it is.

For me, the most accentuated aspect of this system remains the presentation of it. There were quite a few video and life streams + posts presenting the novelty of the RNG crates system. Even after it was implemented and players reacted...the way they did... ... ... some more communicating videos were issued by the devs on the subject.

 

What struck me then (I still have the scar from that moment), was the statement of a very responsible representative of Bioware Austin studio that >

„IS FUN”

that >

„ppl like it”

that >

„the feedback is positive”

 

I confirm that I've encountered one player that declared to like the crates system. However, I took that with some reservation, since the person was a programmer student that had never ever no kind of objection regarding any of the devs programmers work results, that declared that would like to become a dev and would love to play the game while at work, as others do... and there were other aspects/incidents/moments that did not convinced me about the person that has the capacity to distinguish very well between what is right and what is wrong.

 

I also confirm that I have talked to one other player that did not liked the crates system. (Or it may have been more than only one...it does not matter.)

 

Each person has a very personal perspective. Mine is... that the RNG system is here and I take it as it is. At start, I did not seen it as „FUN”. The dev did told me, through a video, to my face, that 'IS FUN”. So I did looked more careful at it. From my own perspective, today if I'd had the chance to meet face to face the one that presented to me RNG as „FUN”, I'd so thank him, with my full thanking strength, strait into his face I'd thank him for telling me the truth, for informing me with sincerity, with full candor, with a strait face and without any voice quaver, about the RNG „FUN” that I was not anticipating!

He was so right and I was so wrong!

 

So is settled:

 

RNG IS FUN

 

This is why the devs developed and implemented it.

Because it is „FUN”, because it fulfills the core goal of the game.

This is why it is kept in operation now and freed of bugs by the devs.

Is something of convincing value awarded by the devs themselves.

This is more than a „perspective”, is much more, this is

 

DEVELOPERS VISION / PERSPECTIVE

 

Well, although I can understand the devs generosity (up to a degree, only as much as my severe limitations allow me to), I see only as fair that they should benefit also from it. Why should only the players have „FUN” and the devs be depraved of it? Since RNG is so much „FUN”, the devs should have a big slice of it, if not the biggest. Somehow.

 

For example = and this comes from my own perspective - since this topic is also about money, would not be right that in Bioware's pay day, instead that each employee be handed his/hers/its paycheck, how about placing them all inside the extraXXXLarge texas hat of the one namely dev with the biggest head in the studio, then RNG extract one at a time and handed over to each, so the janitor for example may get Keith's paycheck and the 5-th assistant programmer the paycheck of the lead programmer and so on! Would that not be "FUN"? I do imagine a video with multiple perspective angles cameras, capturing the joyful and happiness expressions on the faces of Bioware's devs while reading who's paycheck RNG they got! How much „FUN” would be radiating from their faces! Of course, eventually, after many+many+many+ extractions, each one would extract his own check, but even to get what one deserves it is „FUN”! Don't you think?

 

Also, from my poor man perspective, as one that struggles to walk on the line that separates the prf form sub, I add that if I were a millionaire, as gratitude for Bioware's devs, for providing so much „FUN”, I'd purchase and give as gifts to each of the devs one luxurious apartment in the top floors of the tallest building in Austin with one „FUN” condition > to live there for at least 2 years and to use the elevator at least once per day. Why? For „FUN” of course. Their building dedicated elevators would have only one single button, RNG deciding at what floor will travel next. Would that not be „FUN”? For example the elevator door slides and 9 ppl out of 10 that are inside burst into cheers, overwhelmed with the „FUN” that it was not the floor they were going to, the 10-th gloom face saying his mind -”Of f____, this is my floor, the „FUN” is over, it lasted only one hour and it was not enough, I'd so go for one more round...” I'd pay for that „FUN” if I could, I mean if the devs would come at work 1-2 hours later every day, that would anyway make no difference in their work results imop, but coming to work after that much „FUN” would make a huge difference in their work performance, so everyone would win.

Some ppl just lack perspective imop. I mean Disneyland does not have something like such an RNG elevator, although would no doubt be most „FUN” attraction ever. Not even the casinos in Las Vegas do not have any type of RNG elevators, I'd place some slot machines inside and would double the „FUN” and the money...

 

In so many other ways that RNG could be used to generate „FUN”. Bioware should apply for a patent on their RNG algorithm, most certainly it would get a great deal of money by selling it, compensating and exceeding the money those pref players refused to pay...

 

Anyway, my point is this:

If you work something of value, should you not also apply that something upon yourself in a way that matters?

In my perspective, you should be also a direct beneficiary of the effects that value produces, since you developed it!

One that prepares, cooks and sells burgers should also eat them = that would at least reduce the cases of food poisoning.

 

Pls share your perspective: does any of this qualifies for „the wall of crazy” ?

Edited August 4, 2017 by CommunityDroidEN

[HuaRya]

So, preferred players and even f2p would like open access to all this great game has to offer?

Like equal to what subs have??

With no restrictions at all???

 

(... maaaaan, how can it be to meet delusional ppl all over... just before one had the nerve to ask me „how can I know that the imps were cheating”, after I voiced it in a huttball, after we had been squashed in 10 min. with the score 0-6... I had to repeat to him twice „CHEAT ENGINE”, the injector that ******* allows without restriction to be used...and he still did not got it... delusional ppl all over....beside******* )

 

You preferred players that want full access, you realy should learn to count your blessings! You do not realize what favor BW did to you and how lucky you are to NoT have access!

If BW would have really despised you, it would have granted you full access to command crates for example... and that would have been a real punishment.

 

Me for example, on the char I did play most and passed with it long time ago like 500 crates or so

(but on the rep side - my bad! and not cheating - my mistake!)

... I have 12 out of all 14 248 gear pieces (+2 still 246), half of which I purchased with components earned in wz, through countless loosing matches that worn me out.

 

If BW would have wanted to make fun of you and treat you like cast out, they would have granted you access to those burial coffins at a lower RNG setting.

 

Let's assume, by my real experience, that the drop rate of top gear is about 1/40.

( ... in my case was never that high, would have been really great to have that, no, not the case at all!)

Let's assume that for a sub the drop rate is 1(one) 248 gear piece in 40 crates. If devs would have turned it into 1/4000 for pref (and 1/4000000 for f2p)... how would that have been for you?

You imagine they do not know how to add a few more zeros? But that is their main activity! To work with zeros. And one/units. But mostly with zeros. The work defines the man who does it, it shapes him. This is who they are.

Plus, if you pref-player would get the item in the very first CC for example, then your next 3999 would have to be as empty as are mine(most of!) - then, after 4000 the counter would reset to give you one more item in one of the next 4000 caskets, a random one. That would have been a pain. imop.

 

I do complain that I have to grind for gear? and that the new year in only 5 months away and is not enough time for me to see a full 248 set on my char?? until again they will un-random turn it all into dust??? Well I restrain myself to complain, even if I do at times, but you...

Man, you are the one that won the lottery, not me.

As a pref you are relived of drowning in millions of gallons of false hopes, turning into tons of nightmarish frustrations.

You got the sweetest deal ever man:

- you pay nothing so you do have access at nothing,

while

- I pay something and have full access at almost same nothing as you!

 

Really, get real pls!

Stop complaining or they may listen to you one random day, will do it some random way and you will get random multiplication misery!

Pls offer an apology to the ones that really made the right decision in your best interest!

 

Specially you Nethrazhur should apology , since you are to blame for all this...commotion!

 

 

 

So about putting the boxes in „perspective”, I'll share a bit of mine.

 

Some very long time ago (must have been sometime in the cretacic), while building up my first char, there was one gear vendor at the fleet that had some boxes and was selling those for coms; green and blue; there were stacks of those on shelves; not being in a guild at the time, I asked on general chat what was inside, only as usual, as most of the times happens, my noob question was only opportunity for respondents to make fun of me; nothing unusual in fact, after all, is only natural that some ppl involved with the game would make fun of other ppl involved with the game, since the whole point to play the game is to have fun; thereby one must adapt and so I did purchased one box to find out for myself; inside the box there was a piece of gear that it turned out to be, of course, totally useless; that was the only time I purchased one of those type of boxes; beside those there was one type much more expensive, one singular purple box; those I did purchase quite a few, every time I had enough coms I'd pay for one; inside those also there were pieces of gear that I did not use, not at least one for one hour; the only use for those was to sell immediate to the same vendor for creds, for in those days the right way to play the game was to play it for creds and those pieces were worth quite a lot.

 

So same RNG gearing system did reign boxes since very long time ago.

Maybe those old boxes were very successful, maybe ppl were buying those like it were hotdog and/or burger and I was an exception to see them as worthless; the devs should have been able to check the number of sold boxes containing RNG gear, must of seen that those had a huge appeal, that were very attractive to players and were purchased faster than the factory could produce them, otherwise why and how and where from could the main one concept dev have had come up with this marvelous plan to develop and multiply and multiply the multiplied into the RNG command crates that is now in use?!

 

Some suggest that the template was not those early boxes, but it was the packs > in order to subtle induce into ppl minds the need/urge/impulse to pay real money for packs with some gear inside, to buy for cartel coins packs that look like crates, they provided some other type of containers looking like crates, they did put all sort of rewards in crates,so ppl perceive the crates as a good thing and move on to open the wallets in order to open more crates.

 

Which was it?

The devs communication may have been improved, it may now contain a bit more meat, up to the quantity found for real inside a burger or a hotdog, but some aspects will never ever be revealed to the public.

This is my own perspective.

 

Anyway, the RNG command crates is a system that replaced the previous system and most likely will be replaced in only a few months from now by yet an other system. This is it. This is what they can do and what devs do. Is a system better than other systems, worst than others... it is as it is.

For me, the most accentuated aspect of this system remains the presentation of it. There were quite a few video and life streams + posts presenting the novelty of the RNG crates system. Even after it was implemented and players reacted...the way they did... ... ... some more communicating videos were issued by the devs on the subject.

 

What struck me then (I still have the scar from that moment), was the statement of a very responsible representative of Bioware Austin studio that >

„IS FUN”

that >

„ppl like it”

that >

„the feedback is positive”

 

I confirm that I've encountered one player that declared to like the crates system. However, I took that with some reservation, since the person was a programmer student that had never ever no kind of objection regarding any of the devs programmers work results, that declared that would like to become a dev and would love to play the game while at work, as others do... and there were other aspects/incidents/moments that did not convinced me about the person that has the capacity to distinguish very well between what is right and what is wrong.

 

I also confirm that I have talked to one other player that did not liked the crates system. (Or it may have been more than only one...it does not matter.)

 

Each person has a very personal perspective. Mine is... that the RNG system is here and I take it as it is. At start, I did not seen it as „FUN”. The dev did told me, through a video, to my face, that 'IS FUN”. So I did looked more careful at it. From my own perspective, today if I'd had the chance to meet face to face the one that presented to me RNG as „FUN”, I'd so thank him, with my full thanking strength, strait into his face I'd thank him for telling me the truth, for informing me with sincerity, with full candor, with a strait face and without any voice quaver, about the RNG „FUN” that I was not anticipating!

He was so right and I was so wrong!

 

So is settled:

 

RNG IS FUN

 

This is why the devs developed and implemented it.

Because it is „FUN”, because it fulfills the core goal of the game.

This is why it is kept in operation now and freed of bugs by the devs.

Is something of convincing value awarded by the devs themselves.

This is more than a „perspective”, is much more, this is

 

DEVELOPERS VISION / PERSPECTIVE

 

Well, although I can understand the devs generosity (up to a degree, only as much as my severe limitations allow me to), I see only as fair that they should benefit also from it. Why should only the players have „FUN” and the devs be depraved of it? Since RNG is so much „FUN”, the devs should have a big slice of it, if not the biggest. Somehow.

 

For example = and this comes from my own perspective - since this topic is also about money, would not be right that in Bioware's pay day, instead that each employee be handed his/hers/its paycheck, how about placing them all inside the extraXXXLarge texas hat of the one namely dev with the biggest head in the studio, then RNG extract one at a time and handed over to each, so the janitor for example may get Keith's paycheck and the 5-th assistant programmer the paycheck of the lead programmer and so on! Would that not be "FUN"? I do imagine a video with multiple perspective angles cameras, capturing the joyful and happiness expressions on the faces of Bioware's devs while reading who's paycheck RNG they got! How much „FUN” would be radiating from their faces! Of course, eventually, after many+many+many+ extractions, each one would extract his own check, but even to get what one deserves it is „FUN”! Don't you think?

 

Also, from my poor man perspective, as one that struggles to walk on the line that separates the prf form sub, I add that if I were a millionaire, as gratitude for Bioware's devs, for providing so much „FUN”, I'd purchase and give as gifts to each of the devs one luxurious apartment in the top floors of the tallest building in Austin with one „FUN” condition > to live there for at least 2 years and to use the elevator at least once per day. Why? For „FUN” of course. Their building dedicated elevators would have only one single button, RNG deciding at what floor will travel next. Would that not be „FUN”? For example the elevator door slides and 9 ppl out of 10 that are inside burst into cheers, overwhelmed with the „FUN” that it was not the floor they were going to, the 10-th gloom face saying his mind -”Of f____, this is my floor, the „FUN” is over, it lasted only one hour and it was not enough, I'd so go for one more round...” I'd pay for that „FUN” if I could, I mean if the devs would come at work 1-2 hours later every day, that would anyway make no difference in their work results imop, but coming to work after that much „FUN” would make a huge difference in their work performance, so everyone would win.

Some ppl just lack perspective imop. I mean Disneyland does not have something like such an RNG elevator, although would no doubt be most „FUN” attraction ever. Not even the casinos in Las Vegas do not have any type of RNG elevators, I'd place some slot machines inside and would double the „FUN” and the money...

 

In so many other ways that RNG could be used to generate „FUN”. Bioware should apply for a patent on their RNG algorithm, most certainly it would get a great deal of money by selling it, compensating and exceeding the money those pref players refused to pay...

 

Anyway, my point is this:

If you work something of value, should you not also apply that something upon yourself in a way that matters?

In my perspective, you should be also a direct beneficiary of the effects that value produces, since you developed it!

One that prepares, cooks and sells burgers should also eat them = that would at least reduce the cases of food poisoning.

 

Pls share your perspective: does any of this qualifies for „the wall of crazy” ?

 

Tell us how you really feel.

Edited August 4, 2017 by CommunityDroidEN

[Marmeladix]

With this I will only repeat what has already been said, only from my own perspective.

 

The People that play this game constitute content.

 

Even pref players, even f2p may bring into the game more than a monthly subscription, more than... and with no exaggeration I say it - more that some of the devs do.

 

Of course there are 'trolls' and 'freeloaders' and 'farmers' and 'bots' and all kind of undesirable players, but if You, the One that 'calls the shots' would have played the game or would have listened what a real player had experienced in this matter, You could have found at least one substantial reason to differentiate between 'preferred' and 'preferred', then treat them differential, to Your Own Advantage!

But no, You consider them all to be the same, without discrimination.

 

Like you, in an other time, did the US authorities, that had the brains to treat its own US citizens of japanese origin, when that rotten war against japanese citizens of Japan empire erupted.

 

Well...

Some of the most active players that I have encountered were preferred.

Not the subs as much as the prefs I've seen as very active.

Is true, not many pref did stand out like that, but some did and did it to the top.

They just had to be very active.

They had to be in a permanent endeavor in order to keep up.

They had to grind much more than a sub, to make enough credits to purchase the 'free pass'.

They had to use the time and maximize the missions done before that pass expired.

They were the first to call and ask and invite and require and push and pull and insist and persist and resist and... in order to get to play during the time they had, beyond their payment!

They had to be smarter and sharper and knowledgeable to compensate for what they did lack by being pref, in order to play at the same level with the sub.

... like sometimes I'm not at all in the mood to play something that I know it has above 66% chances to fail, like EC for example even today, but if a friend calls me, I'll go for him – it makes no difference to me if a friend of mine is f2p or pref or sub, I'll play anything because he asks me to, more than for the mission or for the reward or for any other 'incentive' devs may have provided.

The craziest achievements hunters that I have encountered were pref most of the time.

At the time that 186 was top rating for gear, I got my very first 186, an implant of course, due to a pref player.

My very first MMG has not been earned, but handed to me by a pref.

The secret boss of Yavin, the Ancient Threat, a difficult 24 ppl ops, for which only the preparation before starting it takes like one hour, I own to a pref to have seen it, since there was a pref that organized that event and I never had any other chance to play that again.

Almost the same way was for me to play the Dreadfull Entity, the secret boss in TfB, being offered the chance to play that first time by a pref, who also instructed me what to do there as one of the tanks.

The biggest and most exciting pvp event I've ever seen, was a fight between reps and imps in SectX – it lasted 3 days and had an impressive number of participants; not continuously of course, but hours and hours every day for 3 days there were clashes between imps and resps all over sectX; at a moment reps were inside imps base, shattering everything, then the imps took over the reps base, obliterating anything that spawned... and all was stirred up, started by a f2p, a kid in fact, I 'know' him well because he has been in my guild for a while, has been kicked out of the guild, twice, because he was annoyingly active in all ways, a hyper active person; he managed to trigger pvp confrontations on other occasions too, only nothing at that scale, when the server was buzzing with all sort of players – he is a sub now, he brought his brother into the game too, but since he moved his main play in the imp side, I get to meet him less.

The most notorious and infamous player on this server, for a long period of time, a 'legend' that got too big even for him to carry it on, so he re-named his char and tried to lay low... was pref most of the time.

...

 

I hope you noticed that the time I used was the past, past tense! That because in the present time, the situation, the game's environment now... well, is not...nm.

 

My point is that some pref do provide to the sub players, at times at least, more fun than the devs themselves did/do.

Thus, the smart thing to be done would have been to look upon more statistical numbers each player generates in many categories and make a distinction between pref and pref, based on those contributions, not treat them all simplistic and obtuse, treating all pref the same based on just one single simple number, a number followed by $!

 

The phrase 'the time is money' may have been developed very long time ago, by one that has his face printed on some $ number bill, if I'm not mistaken, but seems that it has lost its validity, for you developers at least, since by your actions you no longer respect what your own forefathers valued, then their descendants too, then theirs...

 

...but „no more free milk”, right? No matter if one cleans the stable of manure, rubs and brushes the cow, feeds the cow with grass and hay, walks the cow to the pasture and back, herds the cow, delivers the cow's calf, milks the cow... no matter what effort one puts in, each one has to pay every time the same number price for each milk box, right?

How right You are, of course, since every dev pays to play Swtor at home or at work!

Full price.

In $.

 

And here is one more time a repetition:

The 'free pass' has never ever been given for free by the devs.

All 'free passes' have been paid for.

Always the free pass was payed by some1, although most likely not by the one that used it, but nevertheless, paid for.

Fully.

In my perspective, from my own point of view, the free passes were the only thing of some real utility out of all the stuff that was sold for cartel coins. Only top rating gear, if would ever had been sold for CC, would have been exceeding the utility of free passes.

 

My own time to implicate here is running out... and so is my patience to repeat time and time again to the blind ppl what needs to be seen for oneself, in order to sometime understand it.

If ever.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Marmeladix

[AlrikFassbauer]

The phrase 'the time is money' may have been developed very long time ago,

 

It is THE trade mark of economization of everything.

 

Even thoughts are not free anymore : Even thoughts have become tradeable goods. They just mask that with the term "intellectual property", but they are in fact nothing but thoughts.

[Berenices]

All I can say is a good post, and things well said. It has been sad to see how things have gone. I miss the people more than the game that was, but I miss them both.

I hope in the future things can be reviewed.

I am a founder member. I have always subbed but over the past few months I have really only nipped into game to say hello to the few friends I still know play. I really ought to review my subscriber status as playing a different game now. SWTOR was my first MMO and I never thought the urge to play it would fade, but it has.

[DDaMAGEr]

Well, now it's happened - as summer is over - Republic population fell below Critical Mass - it doesn't seem to possible to PUG OP now. That's all cuz of galactic command is paywalled. Gear's sub-excluside, grind's sub-exclusive, what's blastingly wrong with all of ya?!?!?!

 

And players who spend LOT of money usually are quite different ones, than those spend LOT of time. OP and gear attract second category, and it needs to be big enough to First category had some to run content with. l think it oughta be simple & obvious nuff, so paywalling endgame never should happen!!.

[HuaRya]

Well, now it's happened - as summer is over - Republic population fell below Critical Mass - it doesn't seem to possible to PUG OP now. That's all cuz of galactic command is paywalled. Gear's sub-excluside, grind's sub-exclusive, what's blastingly wrong with all of ya?!?!?!

 

Oh wait I thought the excuse was that Summer was a time when people weren't playing and were out surfing and climbing mountains with no time to be in front of a computer. But now that the kids are back in school peeps will be playing more?

 

These logic arguments as to why this games population can't be sustained on 17 servers (more than WoW has) is confusing. Help us Obi Wan, Calgon take me away!

[SeCKSEgai]

If Johnny wants all those benefits, the answer is simple. SUBSCRIBE.

 

Giving away the store for FREE is NOT the answer, IMO.

 

I saw to many people in 4.0 who used Operation passes so they could raid with their raid group. (heck I even heard of the majority of a raid team doing this). However I saw this a terrible for the game. These types of players do nothing to help out with funding the game necessarily (to become preferred all you needed to do was to spend $5). BW needs people who are going to help fund this game if it is going to last, not those that every now and then sub (to buy Ops passes for credits), then unsub for months does nothing to support this game.

 

Can I push my "All Access Token" idea again? You buy a token that gives you access to all the content (including your escrowed money) for 1 month. They could throw in a bonus 500cc for you to spend on the cartel market. I suggest about $15 for it. What do you think?

 

A player that is NOT supporting the game financially by subscribing is not entitled to have access to end game content, IMO.

 

If a player wants access to the entire game, including end game content, then they can SUBSCRIBE.

 

 

So the TL;DR is that the F2P model is restrictive and that's the cause of the population decline?

 

Rrrrrriiiight. Not the boring expansions, not the 2 years without a new op, not the GC RNG gear grind, or the "better than cross server"? Or even the "heal to full" days of squalid PvP? Naaahh, it's not getting to play for free, bruh.

 

Yeah ok.

 

 

^^ Accurate assessment, in my view.

 

This thread and the topic... has been done to death already in the forum. The OP did a better job of presenting it then most have done. But at the end of the day..... the OPs ideas and premise are misplaced. People who actually support an MMO via subscription deserve to have access to things that freeloaders do not. Freeloaders deserve no such consideration. And this is the crux... freeloaders wanting paid level access.... for free.

 

Pretending that opening up Preferred's access to more of what subscribers get will somehow make for more active players that do more then just freeload.... is exactly the wrong thing to do. I have talked to enough players in game over the years that started as F2P.... quickly moved to Preferred via some small purchase, and then subscribed because they really enjoyed the game. F2P and Preferred are really just more generous "trial access" then most MMOs offer.

 

People need to stop pretending like $15 a month for unlimited play and access is somehow too expensive or not worth it. Most people piss away way more then $15 every day on frivolous things and habits. Honestly, if monthly unlocking of full access is just too expensive or not worth it.... go play something that is. if you truly cannot afford it... then you have other things to pay attention to then playing an MMO with the full benefits of a paid subscription.

 

I subscribed for that double cxp event - and as a consumer I regret it. You people on your high horses claiming people need to pay or shut up must not play this game all that much - the server pop decline is real.

 

Frankly I regret coming back, as all I did was the same thing I had already done 4.0 aside from two new operation bosses. I'm on the most populated west coast server, and it's clear there has been a huge decline since I left before 5.0 hit.

 

Most of us have shown our displeasure and voted with our wallets. If monthly subbing sustained this game it would have never gone f2p - and the heavy focus on cartel market and reskinning the most popular items several imes over wouldn't have been a thing. (Let me check how many rancors I have....)

 

When I started in 3.0 the hardest part about getting a Ravs/ToS sm run was earning the achievement so people would take you. People typically had to learn to play better to earn pretty gear. I hit full 248s on my main but can barely find a lowly sm to fill because there are so few taking place now. I even helped a guildie in a random kp hm pug in my old 224s as they had kept enraging at foreman. That same pug died because the second tank had no clue on any of the basics of tanking and couldn't grasp the concept as simple as a tank swap.

 

Keep patting yourselves on the back for paying your sub fees - you'll get a taste of what it was like to be around for the swg cu yet.