Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[merovejec]

A very good point.

 

Yup thats what I said too!

[merovejec]

I'd ask whether gear is the only incentive that gets people to do content.

 

That vastly depends on the person and everyone is different so....

 

For me I am after achievements. Yes one day (and its really really close to it) I will get them all and will have nothing to do but then ill be helping others, mainly with PVE, join GF ops with roles that the group misses, help people with Heroics, rare quests (macrobinocular...) and so on. Finnaly i will decorate my SHs and much much more!

 

Gear isnt the only thing in the game to go after its just priority for people when a new tier comes out.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I'm sorry, but while I appreciate your opinion, I do have to take issue with that. You need to look no farther back than 4.0 208 gear, which was not optimized and did require BIS. The grind wasn't over when you had the full 208 set. It wasn't the same gear as PVE of course, but still required the grind to min/max. You could make the valid argument that the grind was faster, but so was the PVE grind.

 

Well see thats just it, I dont think anyone had any objection to that you needed PVP gear because it was so easy to get and very fast plus you could use the comms you have on one character to PVP gear up an ALT which you can't do in this new system. A lot of the greviences people have with this system is that it's very alt unfriendly, and it's true.

 

As far as BIS gear goes, I don't think it should be easy to get and I don't think it should fast to gear up. In fact, I think it should be hard and long to get full BIS gear. I have no problem with this current system as of 5.2 with regard to gearing up. If anything, IMO, I think it's too easy because you can get full BIS gear using nothing but basic attack, never step foot in a raid [i was a progression raider prior to 5.0, I do both], not know your specs rotation, never use an interupt, don't even know what a DCD is and never win one single WZ. You can't call that a hard gearing system, a grind? Yes, but easy as pie.

 

I also feel that there shouldn't be any 'price breaks' gearing up alts. If you want to gear up 10 alts, it should take you 10 times as long as it does to gear up one character.

 

But, that's a problem for PVP because if you want to gear up in a reasonable amount of time you have to concentraite on one character, so people who like to play lots of alts in PVP really don't have that option if they mind being out-gunned.

 

BIS gear has no business being in PVP at all. Before 5.0 BIS gear was the sole province of progression raiders and prior to 4.0, the only way you were getting any BIS gear was in NiM Operations or Ravagers/TOS HM. [the small exception being when they had battlebags but that was very shortlived and was a disaster] Now, I know we can't go back to a NiM only system for BIS gear because people have gotten use to BIS gear being more widely available since 4.0 dropped. But, I never liked the idea of raiding gear being out side of raiding.

 

But the system is what it is now and like it or not BIS gear applies to PVP as much as it does PVE. You can't make the grind faster because that screws up progression raiding.

 

So we have unhappy PVPers who the only way they will be okay with BIS gear in PVP is if it's fast to get, and if we make it faster than we have unhappy raiders. So, it seems, in order to give PVPers and PVEers the kind of experience they have grown accustomed to over the years, you can't make the gearing faster, but for PVPers either bring back PVP gear or raise bolster to off set the gear gap.

 

I'm fine with it exactly the way it is, but, I know I'm exception to the rule as you are. Most PVPers are not happy with it and they never will be. Whatever I may think or you make think, we can't dismiss the fact that in this game, this isn't how PVP ever was before. You're right, there was a "BIS PVP Gear" [being 208] you would get after you had gotten 204 gear, but it was extremely easy to get and fast. I don't think from what I have gathered from your posts you advocate making BIS gear as quick and easy to get as 204/208 gear was. You were literally geared in full augmented 208 gear in two or three days and much faster for alts cuz u just used saved up comms to gear them up. So you really can't make the comparison with PVP gear and BIS gear.

 

Outside of PVP, my views are very similar to yours. You have to earn BIS gear, it takes time, but everyone has to go thru the same thing and the same grind. People who have done more grinding naturally should have better gear than someone who has put in less time, and it should be hard to get full BIS gear, I agree 100%, but that's a Raider point of view, PVPers are not interested in any of that. A gear grind like what me and you are use to as raiders is alien to them.

 

Sure you can get 242 gear pretty easy [although I don't agree with a 2 and half hour estimate], but however fast it is to get, that's not the gear that's in question, it's the 248 gear that is. While it's easier for raiders to get 242 gear, it's easier for PVPers to get 248 gear but it takes a lot of time to get 248 gear grinding for UCs. [Personally, I'm even fine with that]. PVPers don't every have to step foot into a raid to get full BIS gear but Raiders must do PVP to upgrade to 248 unless they are one of the rare NiM able raiders and you and I know that's a very small percentage of the the player base that can do that.

 

Even though I put all that time in to get full BIS gear, I just don't feel that PVPers should have to have such an assault on their accustomed playstyle. I don't feel that the gear gap really amounts to all that much, but even if it's just a little bit of a difference, that makes it not solely based on skill vs skill. Skill vs skill is the only thing that will make them happy. I say give it to em, it's not going to effect me either way, but even if it did, I'd still say give it to em. They should have the playstyle they've always had before prior to 5.0. Bolster or a return to PVP gear are the only things that will give them what they want.

[merovejec]

So we have unhappy PVPers who the only way they will be okay with BIS gear in PVP is if it's fast to get, and if we make it faster than we have unhappy raiders. So, it seems, in order to give PVPers and PVEers the kind of experience they have grown accustomed to over the years, you can't make the gearing faster, but for PVPers either bring back PVP gear or raise bolster to off set the gear gap.

 

I do agree with this, bringing back expertise gear might solve the problem here. Before 5.0 we had 2 problems one was that the grind for the ranked gear took too long as you had to turn in the unranked gear piece and pay unranked and ranked coms. Thats when Bioware stated that only 2% of the PVPers have BiS ranked gear so they made the nerf. This removed problem 1 which was "hard to get ranked gear".

 

Problem number 2 was that there were the casuals who complained that they are not able to get the most powerfull gear (or any better gear) in the game. They couldnt do ops and if they could ppl didnt take them as they missed achievements or whatever. They also had problems entering PVP since they got globalled by PVPers in ranked gear. So THEY are one of the main reasons for the 5.0 system (well also forcing players to sub etc, but its one of the reasons).

 

So now we have them fixed, but again have 1 group which is unhappy, the PVPers. But bringing back expertise gear now would actually make it so that we have 3 happy groups, casuals with easy to get PVE and if they want PVP gear, PVPers who will have again easy to get PVP gear and PVErs who have it very easy now to get gear anyway!

[Eli_Porter]

But the system is what it is now and like it or not BIS gear applies to PVP as much as it does PVE. You can't make the grind faster because that screws up progression raiding.

 

So we have unhappy PVPers who the only way they will be okay with BIS gear in PVP is if it's fast to get, and if we make it faster than we have unhappy raiders. So, it seems, in order to give PVPers and PVEers the kind of experience they have grown accustomed to over the years, you can't make the gearing faster, but for PVPers either bring back PVP gear or raise bolster to off set the gear gap.

 

You can make PvP gearing faster, since:

 

1. NiM gearing is also currently a problem pending a fix. Address both and raiders won't complain.

2. FP's are much more rewarding right now so there's no major risk of hurting FP participation (Uprisings are a different story).

 

But it's not just about buffing PvP rewards, it should also be about fixing the disparity of rewards between winning and losing so premades aren't as rewarding.

[Lahandra]

Well see thats just it, I dont think anyone had any objection to that you needed PVP gear because it was so easy to get and very fast plus you could use the comms you have on one character to PVP gear up an ALT which you can't do in this new system. A lot of the greviences people have with this system is that it's very alt unfriendly, and it's true.

 

Yes, I totally agree.... But again, that goes for both pve and pvp. If I want to min/max an alt for pve I have one hell of a pvp grind ahead of me.

 

As far as BIS gear goes, I don't think it should be easy to get and I don't think it should fast to gear up. In fact, I think it should be hard and long to get full BIS gear. I have no problem with this current system as of 5.2 with regard to gearing up. If anything, IMO, I think it's too easy because you can get full BIS gear using nothing but basic attack, never step foot in a raid [i was a progression raider prior to 5.0, I do both], not know your specs rotation, never use an interupt, don't even know what a DCD is and never win one single WZ. You can't call that a hard gearing system, a grind? Yes, but easy as pie.

 

I do both as well, and agree. The main stumbling block being, bioware isn't changing by their own admission. Even if PVP get's the absolute best option presented, it's only 242 bolster.

 

I also feel that there shouldn't be any 'price breaks' gearing up alts. If you want to gear up 10 alts, it should take you 10 times as long as it does to gear up one character.

 

Agreed. But that isn't the case anyway as you can gear an alt in 242-248 mods and enhancements through crate overflow already. This caters to both crowds, and offsets your next issue. Teamed with the CXP legacy wide boost, and running CXP boosters I really don't understand the complaints about time to gear at all.

 

But, that's a problem for PVP because if you want to gear up in a reasonable amount of time you have to concentraite on one character, so people who like to play lots of alts in PVP really don't have that option if they mind being out-gunned.

 

But again, outgunned by bolster, balance, skill, or teamwork??? What contributes to 99.9999999% of all lost PVP matches the most out of those?? I think the bolster issue is easily the least important of the bunch, and of so much less consequence that it's almost a non issue entirely.

 

BIS gear has no business being in PVP at all. Before 5.0 BIS gear was the sole province of progression raiders and prior to 4.0, the only way you were getting any BIS gear was in NiM Operations or Ravagers/TOS HM. [the small exception being when they had battlebags but that was very shortlived and was a disaster] Now, I know we can't go back to a NiM only system for BIS gear because people have gotten use to BIS gear being more widely available since 4.0 dropped. But, I never liked the idea of raiding gear being out side of raiding.

 

But the system is what it is now and like it or not BIS gear applies to PVP as much as it does PVE. You can't make the grind faster because that screws up progression raiding.

 

I agree.... But as you have stated, the system is what it is with no change in sight...... So it's again a moot point even discussing it when a total revamp isn't on the table.

 

So we have unhappy PVPers who the only way they will be okay with BIS gear in PVP is if it's fast to get, and if we make it faster than we have unhappy raiders. So, it seems, in order to give PVPers and PVEers the kind of experience they have grown accustomed to over the years, you can't make the gearing faster, but for PVPers either bring back PVP gear or raise bolster to off set the gear gap.

 

Be honest though, do we really have THAT many more unhappy PVP'ers due to bolster than we have unhappy PVP'ers normally?? Honestly, when I look over the forums, I just don't see it. Especially when you take into account that the vast majority of people that are fine with the bolster as is won't even bother commenting. And you know as well as I do if you have been here since launch, that people will complain regardless.

 

I'm fine with it exactly the way it is, but, I know I'm exception to the rule as you are. Most PVPers are not happy with it and they never will be. Whatever I may think or you make think, we can't dismiss the fact that in this game, this isn't how PVP ever was before. You're right, there was a "BIS PVP Gear" [being 208] you would get after you had gotten 204 gear, but it was extremely easy to get and fast. I don't think from what I have gathered from your posts you advocate making BIS gear as quick and easy to get as 204/208 gear was. You were literally geared in full augmented 208 gear in two or three days and much faster for alts cuz u just used saved up comms to gear them up. So you really can't make the comparison with PVP gear and BIS gear.

 

This is really the only place I take exception with you. I honestly don't think we are the exception to the rule. If you totalled up the entire amount of negative posters regarding this issue, I would honestly bet you wouldn't crack 10% of the PVP community. I can't prove that, nor can you prove me wrong, but I think we can both agree it's likely not even enough to constitute the PVP community on a single server.

 

Outside of PVP, my views are very similar to yours. You have to earn BIS gear, it takes time, but everyone has to go thru the same thing and the same grind. People who have done more grinding naturally should have better gear than someone who has put in less time, and it should be hard to get full BIS gear, I agree 100%, but that's a Raider point of view, PVPers are not interested in any of that. A gear grind like what me and you are use to as raiders is alien to them.

 

Again, I take issue with the fact that you say PVP'ers aren't interested in any of that. Most wouldn't bother commenting in the thread as they think it's perfectly fine the way it is. But even then, some have, so what does that tell you? Just a thought.....

 

Sure you can get 242 gear pretty easy [although I don't agree with a 2 and half hour estimate], but however fast it is to get, that's not the gear that's in question, it's the 248 gear that is. While it's easier for raiders to get 242 gear, it's easier for PVPers to get 248 gear but it takes a lot of time to get 248 gear grinding for UCs. [Personally, I'm even fine with that]. PVPers don't every have to step foot into a raid to get full BIS gear but Raiders must do PVP to upgrade to 248 unless they are one of the rare NiM able raiders and you and I know that's a very small percentage of the the player base that can do that.

 

Not to re-argue the point, but just to put the 2 1/2 hour thing to bed with actual answers for people who are curious..... With a skilled group running you through, and this would be barring anyone that could use OH for MH, such as a mara.

 

TFB HM.... Belt/relic/Helm/Implant.....Skip Terror......Roughly 30 mins....

EC HM Toth/Zorn only, skip trash and get the speeder.... 2nd implant.... Less than 10 mins.....

SnV HM full run..... Bracers/Gloves/Implant/Legs/Relic/Chest/MainHand.... Roughly Hour and 15 mins......

EV HM stealthing trash of course..... Belt/Gloves/Ear/Boots/Offhand ...... Roughly 40 mins......

 

That's roughly what, 2:35 for a full 242 set? But hell, let's say even 3 hours..... Most groups I run with all run in 2 to 3 hour blocks and can accomplish this pretty easily in one night. We literally did this very thing the other night for my PT tank. I would imagine any NiM progression group could easily do, and are doing the same.

 

Even though I put all that time in to get full BIS gear, I just don't feel that PVPers should have to have such an assault on their accustomed playstyle. I don't feel that the gear gap really amounts to all that much, but even if it's just a little bit of a difference, that makes it not solely based on skill vs skill. Skill vs skill is the only thing that will make them happy. I say give it to em, it's not going to effect me either way, but even if it did, I'd still say give it to em. They should have the playstyle they've always had before prior to 5.0. Bolster or a return to PVP gear are the only things that will give them what they want.

 

I respectfully disagree..... But again, it's pretty much pointless where either of us fall on that as per the stated course by bioware of gearing being a requirement of all the proposed possible solutions.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Lahandra

[merovejec]

1. NiM gearing is also currently a problem pending a fix. Address both and raiders won't complain.

 

Say what? I dare to say that 90% of the NiM raiders also do PVP so the way the system is now that you get 242s and upgrade them to 248 via PVP/GSF is very good for NiM raiders I would say.

[Eli_Porter]

Say what? I dare to say that 90% of the NiM raiders also do PVP so the way the system is now that you get 242s and upgrade them to 248 via PVP/GSF is very good for NiM raiders I would say.

 

NiM raiders have literally no reliable way to get certain BiS pieces in NiM content, which makes them feel forced into PvP rather than encouraged.

 

This thread exists for a reason: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9332260

Edited July 4, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Talon_strikes]

I love this complaint.... it's quite hilarious...... Like we didn't have people standing idle in PVP before 5.0.....

..... Let me guess, your next excuse will be that it happens more now.....

Though I never quite said that, whether they're standing still or not really trying, you think that helps PvP? You really have no leg to stand on if you really think those types of players do help PvP activity.

 

The devs need to take any sort of PvE progression out of PvP so we don't have to deal with players like those. They may have been present before 5.0, but there were a LOT less around before the whole Conquest and GC crap.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Eli_Porter]

Though I never quite said that, whether they're standing still or really even trying, you think that helps PvP? You really have no leg to stand on if you really think those types of players do help PvP activity.

 

That's what happens when the rewards are guaranteed even for non-participants.

 

You can do nothing for a whole match and still get 11 Unassembled Components, same or more than the guy who worked his butt off and lost, just because you have a weekly+daily active. You get CXP as an active participant, but the CXP is so low for PvP it doesn't matter much.

 

In GSF for example the CXP rewards per medal are much greater, so your performance matters a lot more than winning.

[Eli_Porter]

There are basically four main issues with the reward structure in PvP for now:

 

1. Playing alts halts CXP gain on your main, which in turn slows your alt's gearing progress due to how CXP works (you want T4 mods from your CR300 main to gear your alts)

 

2. Winning is way more rewarding than losing which causes premades.

 

3. Not participating guarantees the maximum amount of UC's available to your team per match. If your team is losing, you can just give up and await your rewards.

 

4. Progress in general is too slow, if a new/returning PvP'er wants to get gear above bolster he'd have to spend more than a week for one piece of 242 gear.

 

A couple solutions that would address all of the above would be:

 

1. Add 10 new CXP pack types into the game. Skirmisher's CXP pack, Duelist's CXP pack, Gladiator's CXP pack, and so on. When you gain a valor rank, you get one CXP pack depending on your rank.

 

2. Re-work the UC rewards per warzone: You now get 2 UC's for losing and 4 UC's for winning. However, you now also get one UC per medal (up to 8).

Edited July 4, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[merovejec]

NiM raiders have literally no reliable way to get certain BiS pieces in NiM content, which makes them feel forced into PvP rather than encouraged.

 

Thats why I said they raiders PVP anyway, so its fine.

[Lahandra]

Though I never quite said that, whether they're standing still or not really trying, you think that helps PvP? You really have no leg to stand on if you really think those types of players do help PvP activity.

 

The devs need to take any sort of PvE progression out of PvP so we don't have to deal with players like those. They may have been present before 5.0, but there were a LOT less around before the whole Conquest and GC crap.

 

But that's the point.... we have always had this regardless. And I honestly doubt there is any more now than there always was. Again, neither you nor I can prove with hard data otherwise though.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You can make PvP gearing faster, since:

 

1. NiM gearing is also currently a problem pending a fix. Address both and raiders won't complain.

.

 

But raider's don't want it faster, the want to not have to do PVP in order to get BIS gear, NiM is outside of the scope for 90% of PVEers so making more gear drops in NiM will therefore not help the majority of players because they're not able to do NiM level content.

 

My point is this, BIS gear is the best gear in the game, it should neither be easy to get nor fast. PVPers can get BIS gear using nothing but basic attack and never winning a single WZ match. There is no if for PVPers only when.

 

If those 90% of PVEers are unable to do NiM, it is literaly impossible for them to get BIS gear only doing PVE. Additonally, making it faster by way of increased UCs still wouldn't effect Raiders if the don't want to PVP.

 

PVPers have it easier getting BIS gear than raiders do, it shouldn't also be faster for PVPers. PVPers aren't forced to do PVE to get BIS gear, Raiders are forced to do PVP to get BIS gear.

 

That PVPers also need BIS gear to avoid gear gaps is what's causing the problem, Bolster removes the need for that making speed of gearing a mote point, and it doesn't hurt PVEers at the same time. Win/Win. Besides, the majorty of PVPers don't want have to grind for a long time gearing up for PVP. They want skill vs skill right out the gate and to be able to pvp on alts competently. - They don't want gearing faster, they want it gone.

[Eli_Porter]

But raider's don't want it faster, the want to not have to do PVP in order to get BIS gear, NiM is outside of the scope for 90% of PVEers so making more gear drops in NiM will therefore not help the majority of players because they're not able to do NiM level content.

 

Which is why I've stated in another post that all Operation bosses should drop UC's as well (1-20 depending on difficulty).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I have supported my argument

 

No, you've restated it, twisted it but you most certainly have never supported it. Even when called for evidence to support some of your statements you pretend like it was never asked for and carrying on down some other garden path.

 

Just because you don't agree with my viewpoint, doesn't make it invalid.

 

Well when you make statements that you can't support with evidence yes it is invalid until you do so.

 

I have pointed out quite valid shortcuts in gearing, and possibilities that maybe people haven't thought of to make the grind go easier.

 

Noto neo f which support your "2 hour" gearing concept for an every day player. The closest you got was paying guilds to gear you or buying from the GTN which would require credits which require more of a grind than gearing would in the first place.

 

Want to prove me wrong?

 

Tell me the level of gear, the price of the pieces, the time required and how you are going to get the credits to do so and how long getting those credits will take. Simple - this is what constitutes supporting your argument.

Until you can do that ... your argument is invalid.

 

No.... HM ops = 242 geared pvp.... NiM ops = 248 min/max geared pvp..... At least that's how I look at it, and how bioware has been looking at it since the 50 bolster. And even going with the best option on the table, bioware still considers PVP = non min/max HM op's gear.

 

What? You're not actually making sense now. You keep trying to point out a PVE grind here, I pointed out you only have to grind if you want to do HM/NiM otherwise you don't need to grind. Your response has nothing to do with this.

 

 

 

Hardly one at all....

 

Is that you "supporting" your argument again?

 

and, unlike ops bosses, every player makes mistakes. So no, the 248 player will not always win that matchup,

 

Starman nonsense. I never said they will always win the match - I said they are going to have a defining advantage. You get around that sometimes? Cool, well done. Doesn't take away the advantage though.

 

When you loose a match, in 99.999999% of the cases, is the problem related to.....

 

A). Bolster??

B). Teamwork (a team working together or the lack thereof)??

C). Class imbalance??

D). Player Skill??

 

Something tells me B and C and D will be that answer in damn near every case, if not EVERY case.

 

Firstly it depends on how much of a gap there is in the bolstered player to the other player. Assume it's the biggest gap possible. Assume the players are of equalish skill then D isn't really featuring. Similar classes and C is eliminated. That should then lend for a nice even matchup - oh wait bolster and stat based gearing means it can not be even.... oh well.

 

Remove Bolster as an issue you are only left with C and D.

 

Ideally you have identified Bolster as being an unfair reason for losing along with class balance - remove boslter and that's 1 less issue to worry about.

 

 

 

I'm not implying it.... I'm outright stating it as fact

 

Lol now I know you don't PVP much. You've basically just admitted to '236' geared players 'wrecking 248 geared players' as being common practice. Not rare, occasional but common and not only that you called it a fact.

Please go look up what a fact is as that's not a fact, that's your anecdotal experience which I doubt is even the case as I honestly believe you are just making it up now.

 

Current bolster is 238 btw..... Do you even pvp??....... The rest of the post is just treading the same old ground, asking the same questions, and restating your opinion as if fact for all....... We disagree, and both have arguments to the contrary, so for the love of god, get over the fact that people have different views on it. ..... Gearing most certainly isn't hard enough/grindy enough, or even a determining factor enough to warrant this mess of a repeated conversation.

 

Hey if you can't handle the argument and being put in your place and can't support your argument with logic, examples and facts that's hardly my problem. I don't disagree with you as much as I have said you are blatantly wrong and you wanting to keep stat based gearing or even a lower bolster is to the detriment of the game.

 

Nothing you've stated so far has shown anything to the contrary, in fact as far as you've done is just to state an opinion that you think gearing beyond bolster doesn't take long ... still waiting for some evidence to support this.

 

"However, it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression"

 

Which is why I'm arguing to change their design intent, it's backwards and not progressive to the growth of the game. I won't need suck anything up either. I'm already getting bored of the game again (bought 2 months though) and still refuse to PVP with a grind attached to it (which could get me a lot more joy from the game) so if that boredom can't be solved I'll take my money elsewhere as I've always done.

 

With the declining population ... seems I'm not alone in that view.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

There are basically four main issues with the reward structure in PvP for now:

 

1. Playing alts halts CXP gain on your main, which in turn slows your alt's gearing progress due to how CXP works (you want T4 mods from your CR300 main to gear your alts)

 

2. Winning is way more rewarding than losing which causes premades.

 

3. Not participating guarantees the maximum amount of UC's available to your team per match. If your team is losing, you can just give up and await your rewards.

 

4. Progress in general is too slow, if a new/returning PvP'er wants to get gear above bolster he'd have to spend more than a week for one piece of 242 gear.

 

A couple solutions that would address all of the above would be:

 

1. Add 10 new CXP pack types into the game. Skirmisher's CXP pack, Duelist's CXP pack, Gladiator's CXP pack, and so on. When you gain a valor rank, you get one CXP pack depending on your rank.

 

2. Re-work the UC rewards per warzone: You now get 2 UC's for losing and 4 UC's for winning. However, you now also get one UC per medal (up to 8).

 

OR remove PVP gearing, add in way more sought after vanity rewards and keep PVE/PVP separate.

They could even do a pool via all their "feedback" sources and see which options people most want from what they've already put and a total removal of PVP gear grinding for vanity grinding ... see what's more popular and if by much.

 

The problem here is the people posting are all subs, if they PVP they probably already do like aspects of the system (and even then this thread seems to have shown more would support a gearing removal than what would stop Pvping if it was done) if not most of the system itself ("yay I get to crush ungeared opponents") - it never touches on all the people who hate the PVP system but love PVP and thus left the game .

 

More than anything the devs need to reach out to the players they lost rather ... those are what they need to get back.

[Icykill_]

Sorry this is going to be a long post as Bio want better feed back than one liners. I will be saving and editing along the way as a precaution of not losing the work. (It may require some proof reading by me)

 

I'd like to make a couple comments based on points that have been made in the last few pages. Entry lvl gear (and Bolster) for pvp is a nightmare. I actually ended up on teams yesterday where we all had it on and the other team was close to BiS. I'm sure we all know how that went . To make matters just a little worse they were in premades and with the amount of people in queues these days we popped against them about 75% of the time. This killed the queue eventually because people got sick of being smashed. (There were actually good players on our teams, but that meant nothing, even against average BiS players). This is bad for pvp and doesn't help anyone at all, even if you have BiS gear on, you'll have no one to play against, so you have no pvp.

I also witnessed people who had BiS gear on who popped into our teams and leave and as soon as they saw we had on low gear. . This skews the gear gap even further because they keep requeuing till they get other geared players. That means all the lower geared players end up playing BiS players most of the time. Obviously this is a problem because its demoralising to lower geared and the grind is so long that it becomes infuriating and more and more people rage quit, myself included when my lvl of frustration becomes too high (I then log off).

I want to add by saying there are a few BiS players actively trolling people with low gear. They laugh and belittle people because they are smashing them and will target the lowest geared players on the team, no matter what the class. I've seen them run past other players and even ignore people capping just to troll 😡

 

So to the Bolster topic at hand. I took a fresh lvl 70 alt into pvp.

208 pvp armor on to retain my set bonus.

200 ear and implants

208 pvp relics

220 weapons.

Weapons, armor and relics were augmented with 228 Augments (relics 208)

 

I assessed these with both augments in and out.

 

For a comparison I also did this with -

168 pvp gear (which I still had)

190 pve gear

200 pve gear

230 teir one gear

I then compared the stats bolstered

 

All items were the same stat mix before bolstered.

Even though Bolster is set above all those gear lvls, I can tell you from comparing them that they don't Bolster the same and this is because each gear lvl is slightly higher than the next. (168 pvp gear maybe bugged as I got weird results)

 

This is exactly what would happen if Bolster was set at 250 and above the highest BiS gear. It's also exactly what I used to see happen prior to 5.0 when we had reg and ranked pvp gear and Bolster was set above ranked gear.

 

What should happen and I expect would happen (as long as all these teirs don't mess it up) if Bolster was set above 250 we would end up with three stat lvls the same as we did prior to 5.0

The lowest of those three would be the "sweet spot". The second you Bolster to a reg position and the third to a ranked position.

 

ie in 4.x we had the following gear/stat lvl

190 was the sweet spot to get the best stats from pve gear and not lose expertise (which is no longer in the game)

204 pvp gear was reg

208 pvp gear was ranked

 

As I've said in a few posts now, having Bolster above BiS does not negate the effort put into getting it. There will still be an advantage to getting it and you are rewarded with better stats. But the gap will be smaller.

The reason to do this is Bolster will never actually give you the stats at the same lvl as if you are wearing the exact gear bolster is set at. It's a shame I can't do exact testing on this to show you because the Bolster lvls aren't set at measurable gear lvls at the moment.

 

If Bolster is set at 250 and long as the teirs don't mess up the calculations. I predict 230 will be the basic sweet spot for entry lvl pvp gear. It will give close to what the mid level will give, but with a very small percentage lower.

The next will be 242 because 234 is too close to 230 and the difference between the two will be minimal. It will still be valid outside of pvp, so it shouldn't be removed because it nearly skips a lvl of Bolster in pvp.

That means 242 will be the mid lvl sweet spot for Bolster.

Obviously that means 248 is the BiS.

 

Now you may all ask how is that really that much different to now or if Bolster is raised to just below BiS? Good quest.

With a Bolster set at 250, it will try to boost stats to 250, but will allow for a difference between the different gear.

What we end up with is BiS a very small percentage above 242. Then 242 is a small percentage above 230. The gaps between these "real" gear lvls is actually reduce by Bolster and will be much small than current, but will allow for a closer playing field. If the Devs wanted an even closer playing field they could raise Bolster even higher than 250 and this would make those percentages smaller again. The same as when 5.0 released.

 

Remember when 5.0 released, the highest gear was 242, this means there was a much higher lvl of Bolster than there would be now if raised to 250 and those compressed lower lvls became closer together. If they were to make Bolster 256-258 the percentages between those lvls would be closer to what they were and would be hardly noticeable.

At 250 Bolster, I believe we will see a slightly increased percentage for BiS than at 5.0 release. This should be enough to satisfy those who spent the time min maxing to BiS as they will still have a small advantage.

 

If they want a 99.99% lvl playing field they could actually set Bolster so high that there would be no real noticeable difference between lvl 200 and 248. This is what happens in sub 70 regs. If you don't believe me, go do some regs. The lower the gear lvl the easier it is to gear as Bolster works harder, the closer you get to lvl 70 the least it works and that's when you must try very hard to min max, it's so hard in fact (if you don't know how) that it's easier to run with really low gear and let Bolster do it.

 

I really wish I was better at maths and had collected raw data back in 3.x and 4.x so I can show all the maths experts here what my results mean.

 

So to sum up. At 250 Bolster -

 

BiS will still give you the best gear and reward those who put in the effort

Mid lvl teir gear will still give you the second best

Entry lvl teir gear is... entry lvl

The difference is a smaller percentages between them. This mean people can still be competitive against other players in reg (which is really what this is about). Considering regs is a real mix of player skill and experience, this is where it's most important because the current system allows BiS players to demolish Teir one and even teir two players.

 

Obviously ranked is whole other kettle of fish and personally I believe there should be a gear lock out like we had in 4.x. If you don't meet a gear standard then you can't queue. This is not much different than NiM OPs where people with much lower gear than the Devs designed the OP will wipe unless they were OP gods to start with (we don't have those in pvp anymore or atleast they are so rare that they are mythical, but imagine one in BiS)

 

Lastly.

Bio should -

Make Bolster 250

Reduce the time taken to go from mid teir gear to BiS in PVP. I can give reasons, but this post is long enough and I think we've give Bio the reasons that gearing needs to be faster. But if you want me to I can give the reasons. Just ask and I can write another essay 😉

 

I hope our American friends have a good holiday and happy 4th July to you 😊😘

Edited July 6, 2017 by Icykill_

[MeNaCe-NZ]

. I actually ended up on teams yesterday where we all had it on and the other team was close to BiS. I'm sure we all know how that went .

 

Umm you wrecked them right? Applying me some Lahandra logic here.

[Lahandra]

No, you've restated it, twisted it but you most certainly have never supported it. Even when called for evidence to support some of your statements you pretend like it was never asked for and carrying on down some other garden path.

 

Told you how to do it, that it would take resources, and how long to do it.... lol.... Those resources could be paying a guild, finding a pvp guild that will gear you, or finding like minded players that you team with. Apparently you missed all that and want to continue your banter regardless.

 

 

 

Well when you make statements that you can't support with evidence yes it is invalid until you do so.

 

Already given it.... multiple times.... it just appears you refuse to take any option that doesn't agree with your agenda or viewpoint. Which is quite hilarious in the long run as it looks as if you're leaving regardless.

 

 

 

Noto neo f which support your "2 hour" gearing concept for an every day player. The closest you got was paying guilds to gear you or buying from the GTN which would require credits which require more of a grind than gearing would in the first place.

 

Three options, listed above.....smh.... Most people who have been playing this game for an extended time have credits to burn though, so my first suggestion still stands..... I would just hire a guild to run you through.....

 

Tell me the level of gear, the price of the pieces, the time required and how you are going to get the credits to do so and how long getting those credits will take. Simple - this is what constitutes supporting your argument.

Until you can do that ... your argument is invalid.

 

Already have posted the information for the run in an above post...... The money would be determined by the guild you paid to do it...... 35 mil would be a nice round figure though. 5 mil a player for a little over 2 hours work sounds fair. Ask around.... lol

 

 

 

What? You're not actually making sense now. You keep trying to point out a PVE grind here, I pointed out you only have to grind if you want to do HM/NiM otherwise you don't need to grind. Your response has nothing to do with this.

 

Which is another hilarious contention as you don't HAVE to grind to do anything.... lol

 

 

Starman nonsense. I never said they will always win the match - I said they are going to have a defining advantage. You get around that sometimes? Cool, well done. Doesn't take away the advantage though.

 

That advantage is not defining.... I'm just getting the impression that you're just plain bad at this point.

 

Firstly it depends on how much of a gap there is in the bolstered player to the other player. Assume it's the biggest gap possible. Assume the players are of equalish skill then D isn't really featuring. Similar classes and C is eliminated. That should then lend for a nice even matchup - oh wait bolster and stat based gearing means it can not be even.... oh well.

 

Right.....So what you're saying is... in the really rare instance where you meet a player of the same class in a 1v1, bolster is going to make a very small difference...... Right..... so 99.999999% of the time, it won't. Thanks for making my point.

 

 

Ideally you have identified Bolster as being an unfair reason for losing along with class balance - remove boslter and that's 1 less issue to worry about.

 

Funny.... it's quite the opisite as you stated clearly above...... Look at all the circumstances that would have to line up just for your precious bolster to make a small difference......

 

Lol now I know you don't PVP much. You've basically just admitted to '236' geared players 'wrecking 248 geared players' as being common practice. Not rare, occasional but common and not only that you called it a fact.

Please go look up what a fact is as that's not a fact, that's your anecdotal experience which I doubt is even the case as I honestly believe you are just making it up now.

 

Happens in regs ALL the time..... so yeah..... Are you sure you're into this PVP thing?? Mabey you have it mistaken for planetary dailies that kicking your rump.... lol

 

Hey if you can't handle the argument and being put in your place and can't support your argument with logic, examples and facts that's hardly my problem. I don't disagree with you as much as I have said you are blatantly wrong and you wanting to keep stat based gearing or even a lower bolster is to the detriment of the game.

 

Oh my.... I feel SO put in my place......LMAO...... Pardon me while I take a bit longer to finish this post as I am having trouble seeing through the tears of laughter......

 

Nothing you've stated so far has shown anything to the contrary, in fact as far as you've done is just to state an opinion that you think gearing beyond bolster doesn't take long ... still waiting for some evidence to support this.

 

This has already been covered ad nauseam....... At this point you're simply trolling.

 

Which is why I'm arguing to change their design intent, it's backwards and not progressive to the growth of the game. I won't need suck anything up either. I'm already getting bored of the game again (bought 2 months though) and still refuse to PVP with a grind attached to it (which could get me a lot more joy from the game) so if that boredom can't be solved I'll take my money elsewhere as I've always done.

 

With the declining population ... seems I'm not alone in that view.

 

Sounds like you're done regardless..... We have a handful of people like yourself whining against the machine in hope that they will listen to an option that isn't even one they presented as a viable option and goes directly against the stated direction of the game. Good luck with that.......

Edited July 5, 2017 by Lahandra

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Told you how to do it, that it would take resources, and how long to do it.... lol.... Those resources could be paying a guild, finding a pvp guild that will gear you, or finding like minded players that you team with. Apparently you missed all that and want to continue your banter regardless.

 

Yes but those "how to do it's" counter your argument of it not taking long - they imply it does indeed take a long time. As such you've disproven your own argument. Well done.

 

Already given it.... multiple times.... it just appears you refuse to take any option that doesn't agree with your agenda or viewpoint. Which is quite hilarious in the long run as it looks as if you're leaving regardless.

 

No, you've just continually repeated yourself without evidence to support your repetition. I can do it to - I'll just keep repeating that you are repeating yourself until you actually have something of substance to present to the audience.

 

Three options, listed above.....smh.... Most people who have been playing this game for an extended time have credits to burn though, so my first suggestion still stands..... I would just hire a guild to run you through.....

 

So you can't prove me wrong? Got it, you concede the point and were wrong then. Nice to know.

 

Already have posted the information for the run in an above post...... The money would be determined by the guild you paid to do it...... 35 mil would be a nice round figure though. 5 mil a player for a little over 2 hours work sounds fair. Ask around.... lol

 

35 mill you say? You're going to fully gear for 25 million and earn 35 million in 2 hours somehow? Wow ... by all means tell us this magic credit making method that can generate that much credits so fast?

 

Which is another hilarious contention as you don't HAVE to grind to do anything.... lol

 

Says you yet you've not proven anything to the contrary. Just posting random words don't make them true.

 

That advantage is not defining.... I'm just getting the impression that you're just plain bad at this point.

 

Ad hominem attacks won't help your lack of a logical argument. There is clear statistical advantage otherwise we wouldn't need stat gear or bolster since the difference would be moot.

If the difference is moot why bother having stat gear?

 

Your logic is flawed and your argument self defeating but it's fun watching you waste the time replying all the same.

 

Right.....So what you're saying is... in the really rare instance where you meet a player of the same class in a 1v1, bolster is going to make a very small difference...... Right..... so 99.999999% of the time, it won't. Thanks for making my point.

 

I'm saying if everyone had the same stat setup then all that would matter is class balance and skill, not much to be done about class balance except by BWA so that only leave skill. The point most have made is PVP should be about skill and not having better stats.

Clearly you rely on the crutch, it's a shame. Perhaps without the crutch you might find you could do well at PVP anyway. *shrug*.

 

 

Funny.... it's quite the opisite as you stated clearly above...... Look at all the circumstances that would have to line up just for your precious bolster to make a small difference......

 

So having bolster and gear gaps makes it more fair then? I mean that's the "opposite" after all. Maybe make sure you're using the correct words and your post makes sense before hitting 'submit reply' next time.

 

Happens in regs ALL the time..... so yeah..... Are you sure you're into this PVP thing?? Mabey you have it mistaken for planetary dailies that kicking your rump.... lol

 

It really doesn't, in fact you are literally the only person in this entire thread implying it does, by all means though - keep dreaming.

 

Oh my.... I feel SO put in my place......LMAO...... Pardon me while I take a bit longer to finish this post as I am having trouble seeing through the tears of laughter......

 

Is that a retort? I think it was supposed to be but well ... it's kinda lacking in the "retort" part of the post.

 

This has already been covered ad nauseam....... At this point you're simply trolling.

 

It hasn't and accusing people of being a troll because you can't support your own argument what so ever is getting a little desperate don't you think?

 

Sounds like you're done regardless..... We have a handful of people like yourself whining against the machine in hope that they will listen to an option that isn't even one they presented as a viable option and goes directly against the stated direction of the game. Good luck with that.......

 

We can all have hope, maybe they'll go down the path of bolstering to lower stats though as some like you seem to want. In that case have fun playing PVP with the other 5 people who would like that.

[Lahandra]

Yes but those "how to do it's" counter your argument of it not taking long - they imply it does indeed take a long time. As such you've disproven your own argument. Well done.

 

So.... three options, one of which would give you a full 242 set in one night, one that might, and one that would be up to the other like minded players as to the speed..... take too long??? Depends on what you think is too long. Are you still going to contend it's not possible, or viable? Is there a reason why I continually have to repeat these options to you?? An IQ issue perhaps?

 

No, you've just continually repeated yourself without evidence to support your repetition. I can do it to - I'll just keep repeating that you are repeating yourself until you actually have something of substance to present to the audience.

 

What more evidence do you need my poor child???...... I've given you three options to do it, the specific op's to run, The specific gear that drops, and the time it takes to do the task..... Do you want me to hold your hand through it as well? ..... Which server are you on again? Would you like me to talk to the guilds for you?? Is it an anti-social issue you need to overcome for this to be an option?

 

So you can't prove me wrong? Got it, you concede the point and were wrong then. Nice to know.

 

Already have......

 

35 mill you say? You're going to fully gear for 25 million and earn 35 million in 2 hours somehow? Wow ... by all means tell us this magic credit making method that can generate that much credits so fast?

 

Not what I said at all..... please.... at least get the idea right when attempting to argue with it..... If you have the credits or resources available, the option is a perfectly available and viable one.

 

Says you yet you've not proven anything to the contrary. Just posting random words don't make them true.

 

Again.... already have....

 

Ad hominem attacks won't help your lack of a logical argument. There is clear statistical advantage otherwise we wouldn't need stat gear or bolster since the difference would be moot.

If the difference is moot why bother having stat gear?

 

Your logic is flawed and your argument self defeating but it's fun watching you waste the time replying all the same.

 

It's almost like you're trying to be an internet hipster at this point..... "strawman" this, "Ad hominem" that...... Keep tossing out those buzzwords. ..... Don't meltdown, it'll be ok.....

 

I'm saying if everyone had the same stat setup then all that would matter is class balance and skill, not much to be done about class balance except by BWA so that only leave skill. The point most have made is PVP should be about skill and not having better stats.

Clearly you rely on the crutch, it's a shame. Perhaps without the crutch you might find you could do well at PVP anyway. *shrug*.

 

And that's already discounted by what Bioware has stated in options and direction......So..... Again.... What's your point?? lol..... Your option isn't an option......smh

 

So having bolster and gear gaps makes it more fair then? I mean that's the "opposite" after all. Maybe make sure you're using the correct words and your post makes sense before hitting 'submit reply' next time.

 

Makes it more challenging and fun for me personally, and the bolster isn't that big of an issue..... As I have already stated......again.... and again..... and again.... And as per the usual.... the rest of your post is more trollbait or repeated and arguments based solely on your differing opinion..... so yeah..... Come back to the table when you have something new to offer.....At this point you're simply going to great and long winded lengths to essentially say "nuh uh"

Edited July 5, 2017 by Lahandra

[MeNaCe-NZ]

So.... three options, one of which would give you a full 242 set in one night, one that might, and one that would be up to the other likeminded players..... take too long??? Hmmm.... sure, some sound logic there buddy..... Try harder..... Are you still going to content it's not possible?

 

One night or 2 hours? Or who is paying for it? Where are the credits coming from? Your story doesn't hold up and you've had2 people call you on this and failed to support it.

 

What more evidence do you need my poor child???...... I've given you three options to do it, the specific op's to run, The specific gear that drops, and the time it takes to do the task..... Do you want me to hold your hand through it as well?

 

You've given no evidence. You've had BS called on you by 2 people. Your operation idea falls flat unless you have a magic guild willing to run you through NiM and give you all the gear drops from the operations. If you pay you need the credits and credit require a grind. YOU and I might have the credits but most people do not and need to earn these - credits aren't just given away. Failing that newer players and alts still need gear and that's more credits still - the daunting task of getting that many credits would put most people off bothering to try (especially as they might want to use credits elsewhere).

 

So again - you've proven nothing and been proven wrong in your logic. Try again.

Already done......

 

Yes, you've already been proven wrong and concede the point - we've established this. Why repeat it?

 

Not what I said at all..... please.... at least get the idea right when attempting to argue with it..... If you have the creditss, the option is a perfectly available one.

 

Oh so only if you already have the credits? Hmmm and if you don't as most people won't? Most new players won't, heck most people joining in the past year probably won't. They may spend it elsewhere if they did. Those that do still stuck with other toons to gear.

 

Face it, even if your idea stacked up somehow it's still utterly inferior to having no gear gap.

If your idea stacked up and it was so easy and everyone could do it simply then again no need for a gear gap because everyone can apparently close the gear gap so easily.

 

No matter how you wiggle and squirm you can't get yourself out of the contradiction of an argument you've got yourself into.

 

Again.... already have....

 

Yes, yes, you've already been posting random words. Nice of you to admit it and all but let's move on ok?

It's almost like you're trying to be an internet hipster at this point..... "strawman" this, "Ad hominem" that...... Keep tossing out those buzzwords.

 

Sorry was I using big girl words? You can use Google or a dictionary to look up what these words mean. Making more ad hominem attacks to hide your ignorance won't help you any.

And that's already discounted by what Bioware has stated in options and direction......So..... Again.... What's your point?? lol..... Your option isn't an option......smh

 

My point is to put forward compelling arguments to show them why they might be wrong in their thinking. Fairly simple concept to understand really.

 

Makes it more challenging and fun for me personally..... As I have already stated...... again.... and again..... and again.... And as per the usual.... the rest of your post is more trollbait or repeated and answered argument..... Come back to the table when you have something new to offer.....At this point you're simply going to great and longwinded lengths to essentially say "nuh uh"

 

Fighting lesser geared people is more challenging? Err ... ok. If you say so but I guess it fits with your backwards logic of how apparently lesser geared people regularly beat higher geared people all the time right?

[Lahandra]

One night or 2 hours? Or who is paying for it?................

 

TLDR = continued trolling..... Keep working those fingers though.

 

Your operation idea falls flat unless you have a magic guild willing to run you through NiM and give you all the gear drops from the operations.

 

HM.... not NiM......You can't even get the details right.....And after THIS many posts..... Yet you still wonder why your arguments are no longer worth addressing.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Lahandra

[SilverStarSeaker]

TLDR = continued trolling..... Keep working those fingers though.

 

 

 

HM.... not NiM......You can't even get the details right.....And after THIS many posts..... Yet you still wonder why your arguments are no longer worth addressing.

 

Woah woah woah, everyone knows that only hardcore NiM raiding guilds can run HM KP and EV.