Class Changes: Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

[BraverDre]

And you think Sorcs should do as much damage as Marauders?

 

DPS specs will never do the same DPS and nor should they. You have to take into consideration things other than DPS and DCDs. Skills matter, abilties matter, perma stealth effects things, the ability to self heal or not to self heal affects things, mobility effects things and attack range very much effects things.

Ranged classes shouldn't do as much DPS as melee classes, ranged has better up time than melee does.

 

I do agree their DPS is too low, they never should have nerfed their self heals or their bubble, in fact they should have buffed them. And if force management is such that you cannot maintain an on going cycling rotation, that it absolutely needs to have that addressed without question.

 

Numbers on parsley mean nothing. They are exceptional cases, they are often the best of the best with inordinate amounts of crits landed, they are by no means the norm nor the average.

 

If we used Parsley as a Guide than Combat Sentinels need a buff, because the top Carnage Marauders have hit higher DPS than the top Combat Sentinels and they are literally the same exact class in every single way save for the way the animations look.

 

Should we buff Combat Sentinels because they haven't hit as high DPS as Carnage Marauders despite the fact there is no difference between the classes except for ascetics?

 

There are Assassins are parsley that have hit higher than any Marauder spec or merc spec, but you are not siting them, why?

 

Sorc is a ranged class, Marauder isn't, merc is. So is Sniper and Snipers have hit higher than Marauders have on parsely, theyre a ranged specs. Even with their nerf they will do more damage than sorcs, and they should. Mercs, I do believe Sorc will have a DPS edge on Mercs with the nerf to their DPS that they are getting.

 

I'm a big proponent for Sorcs getting buffed, but as other posters have said, we don't want to create new FOTM OP classes either. I think their rDPS specs will be much closer after 5.3 and so that will make Sorcs more viable rDPS choices. We won't really know for sure how the nerfs and buffs will actually play out til it goes live. Things don't always turn out the same as they looked on paper. Slow but sure is the safer bet, and just because Madness only got a 5% DPS buff doesn't mean they can't be further adjusted in a subsequent patch.

 

Anyway you cut it though, using Parsley as a basis for class balance would be a terrible way to go. Just because one or two people have hit 10.8k doesn't mean that's a norm, an average, or likely. It's not, it's an aberration, far from the norm.

 

And I say this quite generally, no matter how bad a class is performing no matter how long they have been performing that way, no class is entitled to being overpowered. Not every class should have the same DPS. Just as not every DPS spec has the same self heals, one class doesn't have them at all. If you say they should all have the same DPS levels, than they should all have the same self healing levels otherwise you make the DPS spec with the best self heals, the better DPS spec out of hand even if their DPS is exactly the same.

 

There are too big of DPS differences between specs of the same role type [rDPS, mDPS, etc]. Those should be brought closer together for sure, but they shouldn't be the same.

 

Ranged has 7.5 times the attack range that melee does, which means they are less likely to suffer as much downtime as melee, such things need to be taken into consideration. That doesn't mean the difference should be vast, but there is some legitimate reasons for some differences. DPS sorcs most certainly wouldn't become OP if they got another 5% DPS added on top, but because other ranged classes are also getting nerfed DPS wise at the same time, that closes the DPS gap between rDPS classes further than just the 5% DPS buff on it's own would suggest.

 

Lightning didn't get squat, so it could be worse.

 

Sorc DPS should have gotten a bit more of a buff, but if they are not going to do that, than they should at very least rescind the self heals and bubble nerf, and buff the self heals on top of it.

 

Slow but sure is often the safer bet.

 

Mara anni has to do 10.5k. Carnage and Madness should do the same dps 10k. That what devs wanted to do with their balance system. This numbers were shown by devs posts. this madness buff won't bring it to its targed dps. People won't take sorc dps even if they do have selfheals because its not a dps role to heal. We need to pass dps challenges in NiM raids and its a joke when every class can do 8k and sorc is like 6.8k on that challange. let me show u some the link http://ixparse.com/challenges/?challenge=6 see? there is 0 madness sorcs and why? because raidleaders don't want to fail on dps checks. P.S LOOT AT TOP PLAYERS (ON THE RIGHT)

Edited June 30, 2017 by BraverDre

[BraverDre]

AND PEOPLE WHO SAY U CAN DO 10K WITH LIGHTNING. http://parsely.io/parser/view/286925/0 ITS A BUG. CHAN LIGHTNING - THUNDERING BLAST - CHAN LIGHTNING BUG. NOBODY WILL WAIT TILL U BUG UR LIGHTNING SORC BEFORE THE OP STARTS. So when u play a sorc dps, no matter what class u choose lightning or madness u will always s*** and noone wants to play with u when u are a sorc dps... Edited June 30, 2017 by BraverDre

[realleaftea]

Aside from the listed changes, the team is looking into the "Force negative" nature of the rotation also. It is possible changes could happen there for 5.3 as well, but nothing is settled yet which is why I didn't include it above. I will let you know if/when I get more info.

Are you sure about this? You made it worse for classes like Arsenal, but you want to fix it for a class with random skill costs and an 600 pts reserve? Well, then let's check:

 

Death Field:

50 cost

-5 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-30 extra (15x 2 force via Deathmark)

-------------------------

3 total cost

 

What I don't like about this skill is the cooldown and the number of stacks it provides. Iit has a 15s cooldown, although this spec has 2 DoTs that last for 18s and DoTs usually tick once every 3s (+1 extra time when cast). Over the 15s a Death Field needs to cool down, they tick a total of 10 times (5 times each). Yet, the Death Field provides 15 stacks.

 

So maybe the devs considered Demolish as well. This skill has a cooldown of 15s as well (although the DoTs last longer) and produces a 9s DoT. But unlike the other 2 DoTs, this one doesn't tick every 3s, it ticks every 1s for a total of 9 ticks.

 

The fix: Increase the max. number of Death Mark stacks to 20. (2x 5 DoT ticks + 9 Demolish ticks +1 free for a DoT recast). Would lower the effective force cost of this skill from +3 to -7. Alternatively, you could lower the cost by 5 to 45.

 

Keep in mind that this skill is a force regeneration powerhouse if more one target is hit and 1~2 DoTs are spreaded.

 

Creeping Terror

20 cost

-2 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-------------------------

6 total cost

 

This could be balancced out by a slightly negative cost of Death Field (see above).

 

Force Leech:

50 cost

-5 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-15 extra (via Creeping Death)

-------------------------

0 total cost

 

If you don't want to touch Death Field, you could improve the Creeping Death special to 20pts. Force Leech would then effectively restore 5 force points, enough to balance out the cost of other skills like Death Field.

 

Force Lightning:

40 cost

-4 cost reduction

-16 base regen (2s channel)

-24 extra (regen. 4x 1% of your total force)

-------------------------

-4 total cost

 

This skill doesn't require anything else, so you could spam it all day long.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have used the "restores 1% total force per hit" part, but would have either named it => "restores 6pts per hit" or lowered the cost by a fix value = 20. Would have made it easier for new players.

 

Lightning Strike:

40 cost

-4 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-20 extra (50% the cost via Force Lightning)

-------------------------

4 total cost

 

Not perfect, but the remaining points are balanced out by the slightly negative cost of Force Lightning.

Another option would be to lower the cost of this skill by 5 pts to 35.

 

Demolish:

30 cost

-3 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-15 extra cost reduction /50% the cost via Force Lightning)

-------------------------

0 total cost

 

Afflction

35 cost

-3 cost reduction

-12 base regen

-------------------------

20 total

 

And this is essentially the only skill that isn't anywhere close to be resource-neutral. One easy way would have been to let Demolish reset the duration of Affliction, but that's already a passive of the Lightning spec (and I understand why you did this).

 

So lower the cost of Affiction by 15 pts. You can add it to Lingering Nightmares or even change it for all specs. Lightning resets the duration anyways.

 

One more thing:

I haven't included the Lightning Burns passive: Force Leech has a 60% chance to restore 2 force points and Force Lightning has a 4x 20% chance to do the same. Just a small bonus, unless you spam Force Lightning all the time.

__________________

 

What I would do

 

Aside from what I mentioned above, I would definitely implement the following changes.

 

Affliction

I would lower the cost to 20 for all three specs. Healers rarely use it anyways and Lightning can reset the duration to bypass the cost.

 

Force Attunement

I would lower the force points you gain by this ability to +400 (from +500), but would increase the base regeneration rate for both Assassins & Sorcerers to 10 force points per second (from 8/s). (And if you like, increase the max. number of "Weary" stacks to 5)

 

If you do this, you could substract 3 from the total cost of each skill I mentioned above (except for Force Lightning, which would stay the same). So this very easy fix would solve most of the problems of this spec and would helped Lightning, Corruption as well as all 3 Assassin specs as well.

 

Consuming Darkness

I would increase the effectiveness of Consuming Darkness to 50 pts (from 40). The skill lowers the force regeneration over the course of the next 10s by a total of 20 pts, so the skill effectively restores only 20 force points... barely the cost of a single skill.

Edited July 10, 2017 by realleaftea

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Mara anni has to do 10.5k. Carnage and Madness should do the same dps 10k. That what devs wanted to do with their balance system. This numbers were shown by devs posts. this madness buff won't bring it to its targed dps. People won't take sorc dps even if they do have selfheals because its not a dps role to heal. We need to pass dps challenges in NiM raids and its a joke when every class can do 8k and sorc is like 6.8k on that challange. let me show u some the link http://ixparse.com/challenges/?challenge=6 see? there is 0 madness sorcs and why? because raidleaders don't want to fail on dps checks. P.S LOOT AT TOP PLAYERS (ON THE RIGHT)

 

I agree that they should've been buffed more. But it's a Ranged class, it shouldn't do as much as a melee class.

 

The numbers used in that intial post were hypothetical and used \ for sake of example, they did not say 10k is the standard. They said "if 10k was the standard".

 

Here is the excerpt regarding it

 

"Another thing about the damage groupings above that might be a little confusing is the reference to “target DPS,” so let us give you a fictitious example to help clarify our meaning. Remember, target DPS varies based on your equipped item rating and any augments, Class buffs, stims, or adrenals that you may or may not be using. For ease of calculation’s sake, we will say the fake target DPS for our example is 10,000. With 10,000 DPS being the target value, that would mean a Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian should average 10,000 DPS in a fight against a single target that lasts about five minutes (because they fall in the “at target” damage grouping). In the same fight, a Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard should average above that target DPS, up to 10,500 DPS (because they fall in the “up to +5% of target” damage grouping). A Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger performing in this same scenario should average below that target DPS, down to 9750 DPS (because they fall in the “down to -2.5% of target” damage grouping)."

Edited June 30, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[-Highsteel-]

Ah, I'll be sticking with Corruption over going back to Madness. Give me a ring when you bring something better to the table.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I find this part REALLY funny: "Changed Deathmark's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%" . Eric, Keith and whoever came up with this. This kind of change can only be accepted, AFTER YOU FIX THE LONG EXISTING ISSUE OF THAT DEATHMARK BEING EATEN UP BY OTHER SORCS AND ASSASSINS. jeeeez.

and that aside, it's been stated more than once over the years, the spec is force negative = you can't do your best at all or you'll run out of force and be stuck doing nothing except spam vindicate over over. or even better - saber striking boss lol.

I got this feeling that if you could FIX these 2 major problems the spec would already do better. Buffs have to come AFTER fixing existing problems. i thought that kinda made sense, but maybe i'm wrong >.>

As for this:

*snip*

3 i am tired of these community where people that dont play NIM give some sort of recommendations.

1.Running NIM does not in fact automatically make you a better player than someone that ranked pvp, or perhaps just doesn't have the interest in doing NiM atm. it's that attitude that makes the hm / nim community smaller and smaller. that people always look for people who already cleared it. skill of hte person does not hinge on him having already cleared this or that lol.

2. and lol, just cause someone hasn't cleared some content, doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to an opinion. learn some manners.

3. no one is forcing you to even read the forums if you can't accept the fact that we're all equal here in the sense that we're all paying customers regardless of our preferences in game and therefore equally entitled to express our opinions. :D:D:D

[Hichitsuki-hime]

And you think Sorcs should do as much damage as Marauders?

 

DPS specs will never do the same DPS and nor should they. You have to take into consideration things other than DPS and DCDs. Skills matter, abilties matter, perma stealth effects things, the ability to self heal or not to self heal affects things, mobility effects things and attack range very much effects things.

Ranged classes shouldn't do as much DPS as melee classes, ranged has better up time than melee does.

 

I do agree their DPS is too low, they never should have nerfed their self heals or their bubble, in fact they should have buffed them. And if force management is such that you cannot maintain an on going cycling rotation, that it absolutely needs to have that addressed without question.

 

Numbers on parsley mean nothing. They are exceptional cases, they are often the best of the best with inordinate amounts of crits landed, they are by no means the norm nor the average.

*snip*

okay a few things:

1) NO, we don't want to do as much as a mara. we do want to however do as much as I.O. mercs do and for lightning to catch up to arsenal lol. (i'll admit i don't really know which one is the sniper dot spec, sorry about that. only talking about what i actually play myself). reason for why? sorc & merc are both ranged.

A. merc - heavy armor, sorc light armor, so merc less squishy.

B. if you don't play I.O. right u can run out of ammo sure, but madness you will run out of force if you play it right. no sense at all lol.

C. mercs also have reflect as a defensive, that also gives a nice boost to dps should they pull aggro or stand in fire here or there lol. while the sorcs have the oh **** panic button with a 3 min CD that literally makes u stand still and do nothing for 8 sec. so in this as well mercs got the winning hand.

D. for damage output: the BEST madness parse (dummy 2.5mil, sure not as good as ops examples, but for hte sake of same conditions will do) 9388 (http://parsely.io/parser/view/294589/0) vs BEST merc I.O 10767 (http://parsely.io/parser/view/286398/0) , and lol the WORST I.O. parse of the same 2.5 mil dummy : 10028 (http://parsely.io/parser/view/272683/0) vs the worst madness parse: 7118 dps (http://parsely.io/parser/view/279074/0). see what i am getting at here??????

 

2. As for parsley: no, it doens't JUST have best of best. sure the leaderboard will probably only show u the best, but that doesn't mean that only the best actually use it lol.

 

 

Conclusion:

NO, we do not want to be on par with melee burst specs, we do however want to be on par with the other ranged dot specs. How is that too much to ask for? plz explain if i'd being dumb in this desire.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Hichitsuki-hime

[AdjeYo]

I agree that they should've been buffed more. But it's a Ranged class, it shouldn't do as much as a melee class.

 

The numbers used in that intial post were hypothetical and used \ for sake of example, they did not say 10k is the standard. They said "if 10k was the standard".

 

Here is the excerpt regarding it

 

"Another thing about the damage groupings above that might be a little confusing is the reference to “target DPS,” so let us give you a fictitious example to help clarify our meaning. Remember, target DPS varies based on your equipped item rating and any augments, Class buffs, stims, or adrenals that you may or may not be using. For ease of calculation’s sake, we will say the fake target DPS for our example is 10,000. With 10,000 DPS being the target value, that would mean a Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian should average 10,000 DPS in a fight against a single target that lasts about five minutes (because they fall in the “at target” damage grouping). In the same fight, a Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard should average above that target DPS, up to 10,500 DPS (because they fall in the “up to +5% of target” damage grouping). A Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger performing in this same scenario should average below that target DPS, down to 9750 DPS (because they fall in the “down to -2.5% of target” damage grouping)."

 

In the same post they also put Madness and Carnage in the same damage damage grouping. So yes, Madness should absolutely do similar damage to Carnage, maybe a little bit less, but certainly not much less. I do agree it shouldn't deal as much damage as a sustained melee spec like Annihilation or Hatred, but I doubt anyone is arguing for that.

Edited June 30, 2017 by AdjeYo

[supertimtaf]

NO, we do not want to be on par with melee burst specs, we do however want to be on par with the other ranged dot specs. How is that too much to ask for? plz explain if i'd being dumb in this desire.

 

If I remember correctly, until 5.0, merc used to be squishy as hell too. For a simple reason : their dps was great. Ranged DPS is a cool thing to play with, I loved the 4.0 merc and I hate the 4 lifebar they brought to this class with 5.0

Merc didn't need this much defense. Fine they were squishy but hey, when a class can hit you as hard as 33k in one hit at lvl 65, you bet I hope that they're easy to kill. :x

 

However, you've got a point : Sorc should be on the same lvl with at least merc. I'm not taking sniper into consideration here because they are different. (No friendly healing, can only play dps while merc and sorc can off-heal a bit).

 

 

Force Attunement

I would lower the force points you gain by this ability to +400 (from +500), but would increase the base regeneration rate for both Assassins & Sorcerers to 10 force points per second (from 8/s). (And if you like, increase the max. number of "Weary" stacks to 5)

 

Well this would only make corruption sorcerer struggle with their heal that demand tons of Force (and even more if devs choose to keep their changes). Besides, Force management is already a mere hindrance for Deception Assassin and Darkness Assassin. It would only make them more powerfull. I already don't need to look at my Force reserve when playing DPS assassin, I doubt that knowing it will never go down can do any good for Deception and Darkness. It would only make things easier, but not in the good direction. Easier to rollface, yeah. Easier to have bigger dps ? No. ^^ The RNG aspect of surging charge makes it already difficult to have constant discharge proc, don't add useless unlimited-maul to the balance

[D_a_r_t_hA_l_e_x]

Off-healing doesn´t matter. Off-healing doesn´t beat enragetimer. Edited June 30, 2017 by D_a_r_t_hA_l_e_x

[Hichitsuki-hime]

If I remember correctly, until 5.0, merc used to be squishy as hell too. For a simple reason : their dps was great. Ranged DPS is a cool thing to play with, I loved the 4.0 merc and I hate the 4 lifebar they brought to this class with 5.0

Merc didn't need this much defense. Fine they were squishy but hey, when a class can hit you as hard as 33k in one hit at lvl 65, you bet I hope that they're easy to kill. :x

 

However, you've got a point : Sorc should be on the same lvl with at least merc. I'm not taking sniper into consideration here because they are different. (No friendly healing, can only play dps while merc and sorc can off-heal a bit).

Well this would only make corruption sorcerer struggle with their heal that demand tons of Force (and even more if devs choose to keep their changes). Besides, Force management is already a mere hindrance for Deception Assassin and Darkness Assassin. It would only make them more powerfull. I already don't need to look at my Force reserve when playing DPS assassin, I doubt that knowing it will never go down can do any good for Deception and Darkness. It would only make things easier, but not in the good direction. Easier to rollface, yeah. Easier to have bigger dps ? No. ^^ The RNG aspect of surging charge makes it already difficult to have constant discharge proc, don't add useless unlimited-maul to the balance

I've tracked down that post of Eric's about how combat balancing works, here's a snip with some parsley numbers:

*snip*

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

*snip*

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard ( 7020 - 10191)

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel (8810 - 10567)

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel (7533 - 10361)

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow (9478 - 10539)

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger (9109 - 10674)

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando (10028 - 10767)

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage (7118 - 9388)

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian (6020 - 10226)

*snip*

Due to these inherent disadvantages, those classified as Sustained damage dealers are given a damage output advantage over those classified as Burst damage dealers. Similarly, those classified as Melee damage dealers are given a damage output advantage over those classified as Ranged damage dealers. Melee Burst and Ranged Sustained damage dealers fall into the same grouping because they each have one inherent disadvantage, even though those disadvantages are different (one being Melee and the other being Sustained). And in the last grouping, we have Ranged Burst damage dealers, which have no inherent disadvantages. They can quickly change targets without needing to close a gap, and they have little to no ramp up time before they start dealing high DPS on a newly acquired target.

 

So, we've got their understanding of what the order in dps classes should be like. and i've tracked down some numbers for comparison.

SO unless i'm understanding something wrong we've got situation of:

(and yes i know that these are by far NOT the absolute values, and yes some people parse hours on end to get that one impressive parse with very lucky crit), but still:

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow (9478 - 10539)

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger (9109 - 10674)

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando (10028 - 10767)

these 3 have their WORST parses beat the madness BEST ONE.

and literally ALL of them have their BEST parse over 10k, while madness is at almost 9.4k

and let's not forget. out of all those, madness is truly the only spec that is force NEGATIVE. and what does BioWare do? decide to give a +5% buff to a passive that has been broken for ages.

 

am i the only one who thinks this is A) not enough to catch madness on the ~600dps it's missing to catch up with the other specs that BioWare has grouped it with and B) why not FIX said passive before trying to FIX it? or how about C) actually fix the force issues? :eek:

(and yes, i know i'm partially repeating myself lol, it's just really SO annoying.

... especially when people start saying that sorcs shouldn't do as much dps as a mara.... well guess what? yes, BioWare says it should do dps comparable to a CARNAGE mara.... except when exactly is said BioWare gonna follow up on their promises? :D

[Izisvi]

I've tracked down that post of Eric's about how combat balancing works, here's a snip with some parsley numbers:

 

 

So, we've got their understanding of what the order in dps classes should be like. and i've tracked down some numbers for comparison.

SO unless i'm understanding something wrong we've got situation of:

(and yes i know that these are by far NOT the absolute values, and yes some people parse hours on end to get that one impressive parse with very lucky crit), but still:

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow (9478 - 10539)

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger (9109 - 10674)

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando (10028 - 10767)

these 3 have their WORST parses beat the madness BEST ONE.

and literally ALL of them have their BEST parse over 10k, while madness is at almost 9.4k

and let's not forget. out of all those, madness is truly the only spec that is force NEGATIVE. and what does BioWare do? decide to give a +5% buff to a passive that has been broken for ages.

 

am i the only one who thinks this is A) not enough to catch madness on the ~600dps it's missing to catch up with the other specs that BioWare has grouped it with and B) why not FIX said passive before trying to FIX it? or how about C) actually fix the force issues? :eek:

(and yes, i know i'm partially repeating myself lol, it's just really SO annoying.

... especially when people start saying that sorcs shouldn't do as much dps as a mara.... well guess what? yes, BioWare says it should do dps comparable to a CARNAGE mara.... except when exactly is said BioWare gonna follow up on their promises? :D

 

So here's the real issue. Nearly every spec is going to be rebalanced at some point. What this means is that none of the current numbers can be used for comparison against what classes should be parsing. There's going to be more imbalance post 5.3 where some got brought down and others didn't and the classes that stayed high will be over tuned. It's the problem with rolling out dps balancing in multiple stages.

 

If you look at the nerfs to arsenal, to Virulence, it's somewhat consistent. Madness is still getting underbuffed most likely but comparing madness to IO 10k+ range is misleading. IO is most likely going to get nerfed as well, they just haven't released the notes for it yet.

Same with engi sniper. Compare madness instead to say, viru sniper which will probably be in the 9.7k ballpark and while madness is still shy of that, it's not as far off as you'd first think.

 

As for the other classes not being touched I think everyone knows Carnage is overperforming (when played right, which frankly, few people actually do) but we won't see that nerd until after this wave. Same with deception. Basically we're going to have to live with a strange balance phase until BioWare gets around to changing all the specs they intend to change.

 

I think it's fair to say madness needs a stronger buff than it's getting but we all need to get used to the idea that global DPS averages are going to be coming down, so keep your sights set in a more realistic range.

[Zolxtren]

Off-healing doesn´t matter. Off-healing doesn´t beat enragetimer.

 

Off healing also Doesn't matter when a Asassin or Mara is stuck on you and melting your face in....

[Hichitsuki-hime]

*snip*

If you look at the nerfs to arsenal, to Virulence, it's somewhat consistent. Madness is still getting underbuffed most likely but comparing madness to IO 10k+ range is misleading. IO is most likely going to get nerfed as well, they just haven't released the notes for it yet.

Same with engi sniper. Compare madness instead to say, viru sniper which will probably be in the 9.7k ballpark and while madness is still shy of that, it's not as far off as you'd first think.

*snip*

 

well, BW are hte ones that puts madness into the same group as AP PT, rage jug, engi sniper and IO merc lol. so it's natural to compare it to the disciplines that our devs say it should do a comparable amount of DPS.

but really, the numbers there were just to show that the +5% to a broken passive and another +5% to another one is not enough why don't they actually fix the spec before trying to buff it lol. or if they want to buff it, then lol maybe in some way that will actually make a difference >.>

[Izisvi]

well, BW are hte ones that puts madness into the same group as AP PT, rage jug, engi sniper and IO merc lol. so it's natural to compare it to the disciplines that our devs say it should do a comparable amount of DPS.

but really, the numbers there were just to show that the +5% to a broken passive and another +5% to another one is not enough why don't they actually fix the spec before trying to buff it lol. or if they want to buff it, then lol maybe in some way that will actually make a difference >.>

 

Yeah, at some point down the road you'll be able to compare. But the immediate post 5.3 balance will be off simply because not everything that needs nerfed will be. Also in terms of work required it's much quicker for them to simply change some numbers rather than adjusting the class function.

Frankly madness needs an overhaul, the rotation is clunky with refreshes and CDs that don't line up properly and a force negative rotation that only marginally rewards the player for pushing their force. A force negative rotation is perfectly fine if the reward is significant for doing so. We don't need both specs of sorc with unlimited force, at that point you may as well just remove force altogether. Adding some management and decision making adds flavor to the spec

 

But madness needs larger changes than we're likely to see outside of maybe the next xpac.

[ottffsse]

So here's the real issue. Nearly every spec is going to be rebalanced at some point. What this means is that none of the current numbers can be used for comparison against what classes should be parsing. There's going to be more imbalance post 5.3 where some got brought down and others didn't and the classes that stayed high will be over tuned. It's the problem with rolling out dps balancing in multiple stages.

 

If you look at the nerfs to arsenal, to Virulence, it's somewhat consistent. Madness is still getting underbuffed most likely but comparing madness to IO 10k+ range is misleading. IO is most likely going to get nerfed as well, they just haven't released the notes for it yet.

Same with engi sniper. Compare madness instead to say, viru sniper which will probably be in the 9.7k ballpark and while madness is still shy of that, it's not as far off as you'd first think.

 

As for the other classes not being touched I think everyone knows Carnage is overperforming (when played right, which frankly, few people actually do) but we won't see that nerd until after this wave. Same with deception. Basically we're going to have to live with a strange balance phase until BioWare gets around to changing all the specs they intend to change.

 

I think it's fair to say madness needs a stronger buff than it's getting but we all need to get used to the idea that global DPS averages are going to be coming down, so keep your sights set in a more realistic range.

 

So the new Viru, it's quasi burst -2.5% right? If it is indeed the case Madness would have to be about +2.5% of whatever Viru is then. Disclaimer: I do not agree Viru is really "quasi-burst" with those changes it is getting anymore but at least that is the stated classification.

[Izisvi]

So the new Viru, it's quasi burst -2.5% right? If it is indeed the case Madness would have to be about +2.5% of whatever Viru is then. Disclaimer: I do not agree Viru is really "quasi-burst" with those changes it is getting anymore but at least that is the stated classification.

 

Yeah, like I said I think it's fair to say madness is being under buffed. Either that or they're low key retracting their quasi sustained meme... Lol a man can dream.

[Givemedanger]

I've been playing my sorc main since early 2012 with some breaks.

 

Over 181 days time played.

 

Over 226.415 player kills on my sorc alone. Second would be my PT with 51504 player kills.

 

I only PVP. Mostly solo regs. No PVE.

 

Some random thoughts about madness that i played the most through the years.

 

I was lightning in the very beginning but switched to madness fast. I was playing the madness spec until 5.0.

 

I don't feel that madness is bad but the other classes/specs are so much better. Snipers/Marauders/Mercenaries are all better choices. Best defensive CD's in the game. Madness and in general sorc defensives are a joke. You eat all the damage. I can die even after the phase walk with some random tracer missile or railshot following me. When i play on my PT alt i always go for the sorcs first. It's just too easy to kill them. Great for your dps too. After the sorcs i go for other PT's (you don't see many of those)...

 

The most frustrating things as a madness sorc are force management and dots removal by other classes.

 

Imagine a madness sorc versus a marauder with healers behind them. He will never run out of resources and i will. He will interrupt me and i cannot interrupt him. Whats the logic here? When i run out it's better to just die and reset my force. Always thought that force lightning should cost nothing and be my basic ability.

 

So many years and this is still an issue. Played a warlock in WoW and i don't remember any resource problems as affliction. Madness "is" Affliction.

 

I hate dot removal classes and various resists in the game. So many GCD's and DPS wasted by me. I click my abilities and they just won't activate on the current target with his DCD on. Some classes are immune to my damage for some time and can kill me during their DCD's. I have to take all their **** (sure soem white damage can miss). Especially in arenas it's painful (hate arenas - never wanted them in the game - i knew my madness sorc will be **** and it is - off topic - now that i started healing i hate healing other sorcs - in regs and in arenas - when i see too many sorcs in my team i mostly leave the wz unless they are healers too). Operatives are my nightmare. Don't get me started on the roll thingy. Game breaking stuff. My dots reduce their DCD that removes all my dots/damage... I have to reapply and lose my force and dps. Why can't the dots stay on the targets and be supressed but after the defensive CD's end they should start dealing damage if they still have the duration.

 

Also the dot spread with Death Field doesn't always work. What a joke.

 

Even if all of the above has been adressed we would still not be eligible for arenas. Everyone else is just better.

 

I had to switch to healing because the madness spec was so bad in PVP. Healing after almost 4 years. And now the only good sorc spec viable for PVP is going to get nerfed... *** should i play now? So frustrating.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Givemedanger

[Manjaca]

Yes Force Managment is a big issue.

They try to Balance the dps but they Forget that we have a negative Force Managment. How is this possilbe as a Dev-Team? We Need to make a Riot in the class Forum that Mr. Musco hear us.

 

I mean do they Play the Game? This Problem we have some years. Now its not alone the negative Force Managment. The damage is also bad since 5.0 its more than bad.

 

And Lightning is also bad. Possibly the Devs Need to Show us how to exploit Lightning so we are more competitive to Merc or Sniper or Mara......

[BraverDre]

I find this part REALLY funny: "Changed Deathmark's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%" . Eric, Keith and whoever came up with this. This kind of change can only be accepted, AFTER YOU FIX THE LONG EXISTING ISSUE OF THAT DEATHMARK BEING EATEN UP BY OTHER SORCS AND ASSASSINS. jeeeez.

and that aside, it's been stated more than once over the years, the spec is force negative = you can't do your best at all or you'll run out of force and be stuck doing nothing except spam vindicate over over. or even better - saber striking boss lol.

I got this feeling that if you could FIX these 2 major problems the spec would already do better. Buffs have to come AFTER fixing existing problems. i thought that kinda made sense, but maybe i'm wrong >.>

As for this:

 

1.Running NIM does not in fact automatically make you a better player than someone that ranked pvp, or perhaps just doesn't have the interest in doing NiM atm. it's that attitude that makes the hm / nim community smaller and smaller. that people always look for people who already cleared it. skill of hte person does not hinge on him having already cleared this or that lol.

2. and lol, just cause someone hasn't cleared some content, doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to an opinion. learn some manners.

3. no one is forcing you to even read the forums if you can't accept the fact that we're all equal here in the sense that we're all paying customers regardless of our preferences in game and therefore equally entitled to express our opinions. :D:D:D

 

Yeah You are right. All people are equal. Why raidleaders don't want to take sorc dpser? Because its dps 1-2k below any other dps and sorcs have terrible defensive abilities for example arcenal merc can dps while shielded. When we bubbled all we can do is stand still and lose our dps... I just can't stand people giving recommendation when they don't even know what the star parse is... all they know is dps numbers on a scoreboard that means nothing... and yeah NiM content doesn't equal pvp ranked. Sorcs dps perform poorly in both pvp and pve...

[Warforever]

I hate to say this but I dont think the Devs give a damn...July 11th will hit and once again I will stop playing my sorc and stay on my sin. Their silence is disturbing. Edited July 1, 2017 by Warforever
Spelling errors

[ivanhedgehog]

I hate to say this but I dont think the Devs give a damn...July 11th will hit and once again I will stop playing my sorc and stay on my sin. Their silence is disturbing.

 

they certainly arent talking to anyone or putting it on the PTS, so no, they dont give a damn. They will talk to you(or at you) when it suits them. They arent really interested in any player feedback.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Hey folks,

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Madness and Balance coming in Game Update 5.3:

-eric

 

 

they certainly aren't talking to anyone or putting it on the PTS, so no, they don't give a damn. They will talk to you(or at you) when it suits them. They aren't really interested in any player feedback.

 

seee Eric?! people loosing faith in you guys, or well whatever was left of it. please can we get a straight answer:

1) will you guys fix the deathfield || force in balance stacks before the +5% buff??

2) should we hope to have the force negativity issue addressed at least in august??

3) did yous check to see that these intended changes will indeed bring madness in line with the other specs that u mentioned ? (burst melee & sustained ranged)

please respond :D

Edited July 1, 2017 by Hichitsuki-hime

[ufasach]

seee Eric?! people loosing faith in you guys, or well whatever was left of it. please can we get a straight answer:

1) will you guys fix the deathfield || force in balance stacks before the +5% buff??

2) should we hope to have the force negativity issue addressed at least in august??

3) did yous check to see that these intended changes will indeed bring madness in line with the other specs that u mentioned ? (burst melee & sustained ranged)

please respond :D

 

1 Not a chance!

2 Highly unlikely!

3 As IF! Does this game look as if testing is a part of our development paradigm?

[ottffsse]

seee Eric?! people loosing faith in you guys, or well whatever was left of it. please can we get a straight answer:

1) will you guys fix the deathfield || force in balance stacks before the +5% buff??

2) should we hope to have the force negativity issue addressed at least in august??

3) did yous check to see that these intended changes will indeed bring madness in line with the other specs that u mentioned ? (burst melee & sustained ranged)

please respond :D

 

haha lol

 

1.) The simulation was done with 1 madness sorc vs one "dummy" opponent so we do not see any issue of stacks in the simulation, it is working as intended.

2.) The nature of sorcs require them to kite and run from "dummy" anyways and in that time they can restore their force so what's the problem?

3.) Resources were "checked off" in our simulations for all our class dps tests so our algos could execute the best rotation of abilities, so we did not see any problems of the advanced classes achieving their intended dps output over a 5 minute stretch. Given point 2.) above, we do not see any changes necessary in that regard to the Madness/ Balance advanced class.

 

Hope this helps! Your devs team.

Edited July 2, 2017 by ottffsse