Class Changes: Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

[BraverDre]

CAN IT PLEASE.:D:D it's when conversation gets off topic like this that they're even more likely to not even bother with the thread lol. i've cleared hm s&v, hm tfb, hm ec and hm df and hm tyth in 5.0 as a madness sorcerer. true, we didn't enrage and i wasn't even the last dps. that however doesn't mean that the 3 problems we keep bringing up are not valid.

 

Exactly.

[BraverDre]

didnt clear either but not due to lack of dps. My dps was within the norm of passing the checks without being carried, and with some carry capabilities even. in 242.

 

Try again.

 

ANd I don't use the CL bug. from the few things I actually upload you'll see easily that.

 

No no I just wanted to know ur opinion on how people say "sorc dps is good look at 10k on parseley" Devs should start working because we pay them. Madness sorc has force managment problems and its dps is poor as its defensives. Lightning is only good with a bug. The first reason I am mad is because there are players like omaar that say "sorc dps is good i've seen a sorc dps did 6 mills in pvp*... the second reason is developers seems to listen to people with no experience that doesn't even play this class.

 

All I want from BW is:

1. Force Managment

2. I want my deathmark effect only my dots. Just because the deathmark 5% buff is a joke (the hole buff is a joke. We can see that there are no devs that play sorc dps)

3. Offtopic. Make Lightning spec bug as a feature of the class.

[Thaladan]

Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

at least they read us.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Thaladan

[BraverDre]

at least they read us.

 

Nice. At least there is a hope

Edited July 8, 2017 by BraverDre

[FerkWork]

On the plus side at least will be able to have and maintain a rotation in Madness with the announcements today.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

On the plus side at least will be able to have and maintain a rotation in Madness with the announcements today.

 

true, but they at LEAST need to fix those stacks from death field / force in balance. so that at least we can have the boost that they have in mind lol.:D which even then it will not bring madness anywhere near carnaga maras even though it's supposedly int he same damage category lol

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

true, but they at LEAST need to fix those stacks from death field / force in balance. so that at least we can have the boost that they have in mind lol.:D which even then it will not bring madness anywhere near carnaga maras even though it's supposedly int he same damage category lol

 

It's not the same category with regard to melee and ranged DPS balancing though. Madness is ranged, Carnage is melee. That's being addressed in the class balancing that's taking place. Remember to, being in the same cateogory doesn't mean having the same exact DPS for all the specs in the same cateogory. I.E. in the example you site, you are not going to have 9.7k dps for all the classes that fall in that same cateogory. Not all the specs attacks do the same damage so there is going to be DPS differences based on specs based on some of those variables as well.

 

Not only that, but these DPS "category" differences are based on fight lasting 5 minutes, so you are going to see great variances as well in circumstances that do not fit the "dummy parse" scenario. Everything they are doing with the DPS balancing is based on dummy parse scenarios so I wouldn't put to much faith on what these changes are going to represent in the reality of live fighting. In PVP, these changes are going to have even greater variances within the same category because there is no such thing as a 5 minute fight in PVP and there is no such thing a 5 minute dummy parse even in Raiding. The basis for the DPS changes being based on a 5 minute dummy parse will have very little in common with live fights of in all areas of play, none reflect the basis upon which BW is making their changes upon.

Edited July 8, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Hichitsuki-hime]

It's not the same category with regard to melee and ranged DPS balancing though. Madness is ranged, Carnage is melee. That's being addressed in the class balancing that's taking place. Remember to, being in the same cateogory doesn't mean having the same exact DPS for all the specs in the same cateogory. I.E. in the example you site, you are not going to have 9.7k dps for all the classes that fall in that same cateogory. Not all the specs attacks do the same damage so there is going to be DPS differences based on specs based on some of those variables as well.

 

Not only that, but these DPS "category" differences are based on fight lasting 5 minutes, so you are going to see great variances as well in circumstances that do not fit the "dummy parse" scenario. Everything they are doing with the DPS balancing is based on dummy parse scenarios so I wouldn't put to much faith on what these changes are going to represent in the reality of live fighting. In PVP, these changes are going to have even greater variances within the same category because there is no such thing as a 5 minute fight in PVP and there is no such thing a 5 minute dummy parse even in Raiding. The basis for the DPS changes being based on a 5 minute dummy parse will have very little in common with live fights of in all areas of play, none reflect the basis upon which BW is making their changes upon.

 

yes of course every class and even every spec does different damage, but there is a difference between being 200-400dps behind the other spec or being 800-1k or more behind.

[BraverDre]

yes of course every class and even every spec does different damage, but there is a difference between being 200-400dps behind the other spec or being 800-1k or more behind.

 

Exactly

[Scatmanworlds]

big diffrence between 2% and 10% diffrence. especially when theres a 10% starting variance before the internal class variances... you end up with 15/20% variance between the extremes and thats not healthy

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

yes of course every class and even every spec does different damage, but there is a difference between being 200-400dps behind the other spec or being 800-1k or more behind.

 

I agree, not all DPS specs should do the same damage, but differences 800-1k I can find no legitimate reasoning for, unless their are technical aspects I am simply unaware of, but I doubt there are.

 

The difference between Rank 1 and Rank 18 shouldn't be more than 500, and less than in between.

 

The differences between sustained and burst matter, but, they don't matter as much in this game as they do in the traditional mold. For example, let's take Annihilation, you really can't call it a melee sustained spec when it can do 30k Annihilates. That's burst damage for a single attack. If it's capable of burst damage like that, than it isn't warranted to give it as much of a DPS bonus.

 

Each spec needs to be looked at individually. Simply lumping a bunch of them in together isn't appropriate just to make it easier. There should not by any instances of a ranged spec and a melee spec being in the same category either. These are just more short cuts for the combat team and devs are using to make it easier for themselves at the expense of true class balance.

 

Each individual class should be looked at, it's pros and cons weighed, its DCDs, it's non-direct combat abilities [i.e. perma stealth, dirty rez, CC kit, mobility type [progressive movement vs instant movement [teleport like movement], even utility options], etc because it all plays into the overall effectiveness of a spec. And just because something doesn't have a direct damage aspect to it, doesn't mean it doesn't serve the group and effect the chances of success. All these things should be considered and than a finding of an appropriate level of DPS. Type of damage dealer should matter of course, that would be just another consideration.

 

Lumping classes together in newly minted classification types that they just made up now and no one has ever heard before doesn't cut it. There are classes that seem to be in the wrong grouping entirely, for example:

 

Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger shouldn't be in the Ranged Quasi-Sustained Damage Dealer cate

ogory, Engenneiring should be and Virulence should be in ranged sustained.

 

and similarly Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel Melee shouldn't be in Quasi-Burst Damage Dealer cateogory, Carnage/Combat should and Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel should be in melee burst as it has no set up for it's burst, it's front loaded, whereas Carnage/Combat does have set up time for it's burst isn't front loaded, it needs to be fit inside a window for it's burst. There is a huge difference in damage between "burst attacks" used inside a window and outside the window. There isn't a big difference for Fury's damage used at anytime time aside from a 5% buff, but it doesn't have the resource issue to worry about for it's burst damage effectiveness.

 

I've seen a few other posters make comment to their respective specs make similar observations about what category they should be. I recall seeing a Fury user make the observation and Engineering sniper and Virulence and agreed with their observations.

 

Everyone's going to get nerfed I think, I don't think any spec is really going to be happy with the changes being made [ some will have more right to their grievances of course, like DPS sorcs].

 

Basing DPS on arbitrary category where both ranged and melee are in the same ones, based on 5 minute dummy parses, with no consideration given to defensive capabilities/heals, abilities, powers, skills, etc. is a disaster waiting to happen all over again.

 

Way things are looking, as much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't be at all surprised that by the time they are done with this "class balance" the way things are now might actually be preferable.

 

The defensive nerfs to DPS sorcs are just about the stupidest thing I've seen them do yet with this class balancing. They should have buffed DPS sorcs self heals!

Edited July 9, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[BraverDre]

What is the point to buff Deathmarks if other players DoTs will it them? Did developers even try to play this class? Edited July 11, 2017 by BraverDre

[ottffsse]

"This buff is a lie, there is only fluff.

Fluff makes me mad.

And mad makes me bad.

It's quite sad to be bubbled.

And easier to be dead.

The Force Tickling will set me free."

[Hoppinswtor]

So my average parse is....100 dps higher.

 

Perhaps a new rotation needs to be hashed out.

[LordRouger]

It's just kinda unbeliveble. How is this happening, sorc dps problems are so obvious that all you have to do to notice them is go to one ops with Dread Masters and run 4-6 WZ in a row. That would be enough to understand how much useless you are as a dps. Class is just getting killed. I wouldn't be surprised if in next patch they just take away all my dps abilities and replace them all with one called "Useless shining". Because thats exacly what we sorcs doing now - shining like a christmas trees with no actual effect. Well, the only effect you gain is that you finnaly geting spoted and ganged by opers\ maras.

And all that game facts against the concept of sith sorcerers in SW universe where they are so powerful, that everybody run away in fear only by seeing one.

But no no, we can't have that oh no! Instead we will make them run away all the time and give them defensive CD so useless so that they can get one shoted through it in any ops.

Good-a job-a!

I have only one question here - should i find myself another game? Because you know, im just not interested in any other classes. Sith sorcerers is a representetive of absolute destructive power of the Force. But just not here, here they are sad to watch for not one year in a row and i just cant take it anymore. And please dont tell me how i should L2P and H2F. Been there done that. Im not the best and never going to be, but im good enough to understend where is my fail and where class failing me.

p. s. Sorry for my bad english, but it's the only one i have, it'll have to do.

[adayamothrawn]

Has anyone given it a try? Any "first minute" advice for others?

Lightning or Madness is the question. (neither is not an option )

[LordRouger]

Has anyone given it a try? Any "first minute" advice for others?

Lightning or Madness is the question. (neither is not an option )

 

If neither is not an option then you, like me, are screwed big time. There is no place for sorcerers dps anymore.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Has anyone given it a try? Any "first minute" advice for others?

Lightning or Madness is the question. (neither is not an option )

errr atm force management for madness is completely not a thing. before patch did a 4mil parse, at 30% was already at 50 force and had to forgo disturbance all together.

after patch did another 4 mil, never dropped below 90% force.

that said, the damage increase iss......... 2% maybe? or so. really could do with a smaller force regen and a bit more solid dps buff LOL:D:D:D

[Hichitsuki-hime]

If neither is not an option then you, like me, are screwed big time. There is no place for sorcerers dps anymore.

 

we're doing HM DP tomorrow with my team..... we have 2 madness sorcs on the team lol. i'll let u know how that goes hahaha:D:D

[Rion_Starkiller]

So my average parse is....100 dps higher.

 

Perhaps a new rotation needs to be hashed out.

 

Damn.

was hoping for more.... how does it play out in a WZ with dot spread fluff? (i'm still at twerk )

Edited July 11, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[ottffsse]

Damn.

was hoping for more.... how does it play out in a WZ with dot spread fluff? (i'm still at twerk )

 

There is a high crit parse on parsley up now. 52% crit so on the high end of rng. 9630? dps.

 

I did a 2.5mil parse of my own now, I have a higher apm rotation personally than that parse which benefits from force management buff, I was about 9,2K first half of the parse on very mediocre crit (44%), than the second half of the parse crit rate went into god mode territory (55% crit) and dps went up to 9,8K (-but that benefited more once target is under 30% health).

 

Anyways, I think someone will crack 9,7K on 2.5mil with good rotation on very good rng eventually.

 

But...

 

That is the same as the high crit rng non-bugged lightning parses at the moment. Which means it is the same as lightning (maybe just a bit more consistent dps though) on single target, but with dot spread on fights with many targets it was before the buff a decent spec, and now quite strong.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

There is a high crit parse on parsley up now. 52% crit so on the high end of rng. 9630? dps.

 

I did a 2.5mil parse of my own now, I have a higher apm rotation personally than that parse which benefits from force management buff, I was about 9,2K first half of the parse on very mediocre crit (44%), than the second half of the parse crit rate went into god mode territory (55% crit) and dps went up to 9,8K (-but that benefited more once target is under 30% health).

 

Anyways, I think someone will crack 9,7K on 2.5mil with good rotation on very good rng eventually.

 

But...

 

That is the same as the high crit rng non-bugged lightning parses at the moment. Which means it is the same as lightning (maybe just a bit more consistent dps though) on single target, but with dot spread on fights with many targets it was before the buff a decent spec, and now quite strong.

 

really sad we don't got a guide this level lol. i'm like missing .... around 1k dps and hell if i know why =( anyone wanna help? lol :D

[ottffsse]

really sad we don't got a guide this level lol. i'm like missing .... around 1k dps and hell if i know why =( anyone wanna help? lol :D

 

The most important thing is apm and crit chance in any dps or heals (for that matter) parse vs what the theoretical standard is. For madness it is 44.6 apm (on bant's numbers and stats if you are 248 bis). Also keep in mind the top parsers probably have all the datacrons (+200? mastery?)

 

I personally think 1612 alactrity is a bit too high (bant's number), I think sweet spot even for dot spec is about 1550-1570, rest into crit or mastery.

 

Crit chance you can't control as it is rng, apm you can. Now your apm on madness should be no lower than about 40. 42 and upward is great.

 

Next is the specifics of the mechanics of the class which yield the most consistent dps. This being deathmarks/force suppression and dot uptime on madness/balance.

 

You should have 90%+ uptime minimum on your two weaker dots (affliction/weaken mind, Severe force/creeping terror) and 55%, better 57%+ on demolish/vanquish. Force suppression / deathmarks should be up 70%+ of the time. I think the max theoretical value for the two weak dots is 99%, vanquish/demolish 60%, deathmark/force suppression 80%.

[Chiters]

I've been crushing people in PVP with it today.

 

It is in a really good place at the moment.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

The most important thing is apm and crit chance in any dps or heals (for that matter) parse vs what the theoretical standard is. For madness it is 44.6 apm (on bant's numbers and stats if you are 248 bis). Also keep in mind the top parsers probably have all the datacrons (+200? mastery?)

yeah, i got all my datacrons. but apm truly sucks, best parse so far was 8820 and the apm was 37.9

I personally think 1612 alactrity is a bit too high (bant's number), I think sweet spot even for dot spec is about 1550-1570, rest into crit or mastery.

Crit chance you can't control as it is rng, apm you can. Now your apm on madness should be no lower than about 40. 42 and upward is great.

currently have: 1795 crit & 1567 alacrity. 3746 power

Next is the specifics of the mechanics of the class which yield the most consistent dps. This being deathmarks/force suppression and dot uptime on madness/balance.

You should have 90%+ uptime minimum on your two weaker dots (affliction/weaken mind, Severe force/creeping terror) and 55%, better 57%+ on demolish/vanquish. Force suppression / deathmarks should be up 70%+ of the time. I think the max theoretical value for the two weak dots is 99%, vanquish/demolish 60%, deathmark/force suppression 80%.

on this part creeping terror 95.16%; affliction 97.15%; demolish 58.37% & deathmark 62.90%;

so looks like i need to increase my APM and the uptime on my deathmark. not really sure how to ago about that though. :confused:

Edited July 12, 2017 by Hichitsuki-hime