Class Changes: Virulence Sniper/ Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

[THAT_EPIC_GUY]

25% reduction on cull's weapon damage

Weakening blast costs energie and will not be triggered from the damage of cull

 

I think we can say that's the end for Virulence/ Dirty fighting for PvE endcontent.

 

A little reduction on cull's weapon damage like 10% in exchange for a little boost on lethal shot (6%) would have been ok, but not so much.

And they really want to add an energie cost on Weakening Blast? Has anyone from Bioware ever played this spec ?

 

RIP Virulence/Dirty Fighting

 

It's comments like these that show that half the people commenting in this thread don't actually understand the spec. What you have proposed my friend, is a buff to current live virulence. "Cull" damage is only the 4 white damage ticks associated with a cull channel. During this channel you get an extra 8 dot ticks due to how cull works, none of which are being nerfed, 'cull' is actually quite low damage in the spec anyway, it is the forced dot ticks which do much more (and aren't being touched).

[Hombad]

It's comments like these that show that half the people commenting in this thread don't actually understand the spec. What you have proposed my friend, is a buff to current live virulence. "Cull" damage is only the 4 white damage ticks associated with a cull channel. During this channel you get an extra 8 dot ticks due to how cull works, none of which are being nerfed, 'cull' is actually quite low damage in the spec anyway, it is the forced dot ticks which do much more (and aren't being touched).

 

Vast majority of player base has no idea how most specs work tbh

 

People crying about how Arsenal is underpowered currently in PvE in the Arsenal threat for example...

 

Or someone arguing with Evolixe + me (Jaek) about how Hatred is viable for NiM calph, styrak and brontes and can meet all checks on it without being carried.

[Tyristles]

So if you`re playing the 2 cull Rotation right now, it's clear you don't have energy issues. I didn't have issues so far for like 95% of the time. But playing the spec on it's max (with a 3 cull rota) it is possible at the moment if you're not lucky with crits that you have to use rifle shot sometimes and that you get energy issues in some weird situations but it's ok.

 

And yes it will be still viable, i just hope that all the people who now say everything is ok with this nerf, everybody stop whining, won't be the same who reroll a Maro after the patch and stop playing sniper.

Maybe I overreacted a little bit cause i really love the spec but we'll see were we end after the patch, cause atm nobody can test all these changes.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Tyristles

[Forren-Midosea]

Now with more things said, i see that viru will be a true sustained dps and the target dps for 5.0 is below 10k

 

Cant wait to see what you are planning to do with madness sorc/balance sage.

[Mikimaster]

So assuming that the WB activation on Cull is what caused the class to be considered Quasi-sustained due to that combos bursty nature, with it removed should Virulence be reclassified?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Exactly! And this is a big deal at the moment. The right thing to do would be to change/nerf ALL classes at the same time (same patch)

 

I love this sentence. Let's nerf every class in the game for class balance, so in effect no class balance has been affected because everyone's been nerfed so the classes remain relative just with lower numbers heh.

 

Sadly, I think that's exactly what they are going to do, every class, every spec will be cut up, and everyone will be disappointed because even classes that weren't overperforming will lose something as well. Brillant strategy. We're already seeing this with DPS sorcs.

 

So all the grinding and gearing, will end up being for nothing because everyone will be nerfed back so they are in a state similar to what they were in 224 or 236 gear.

 

I am reminded of the last level cap raise where they removed a utility point we already had and only would get back once we leveled to cap [or one level below the new cap].

 

Just when you think BW can't possibly get worse....and yet somehow, we're still surprised at some of the things they do.

 

Why they waste the time typing "Keep the feedback coming", is beyond me. How they could possibly think the things they are doing, or rather the way they are going about this "class balancing" is going to do anything other than lower their already low stock with the player base, I find totally baffling.

 

Apparently, the customer is always wrong. Which is a great excuse for bankruptcy.

 

In the past I have always said to the doomsayers, "Star Wars is Forever". I guess I was wrong.

 

I know these nerfs won't make content unplayable of course, but even still, sorry you guys got hit so hard.

[paucisverbis]

I would argue that despite the nerfs, Virulence is still plenty enough for all Storymode, Hardmode as well as for most Nightmare content, in addition, this promotes the usage of other specs which, let's be honest, is exactly what Snipers need. You don't want one spec to rule them all.

 

Crying about reduced numbers is fine, but don't translate that into saying you won't be able to clear nightmare, because despite the average DPS being reduced, it's still enough to clear the DPS checks currently ingame.

 

Ditto. Agreed. Additionally, if it is only the weapon damage of cull alone that is being nerfed but none of the poison/dot damages associated with cull, then it isn't that bad. It still is a nerf, sure, and the dps output of Virulence/Dirty Fighting will go down, sure, but in my humble opinion nothing so extreme that anyone should give up on this spec altogether. As I said previously, we should see how it works out in actual fights.

Edited June 24, 2017 by paucisverbis

[vadess]

This is what I was afraid of when I did some quick napkin math. I would recommend more along the lines of reducing the damage of cull by 12.5% or 15%. This combined with the other changes makes Virulence a better sustained spec then Marksmen/Sharpshooter. At the same time in would help bring sniper more in line with where it probably should be in a pure numbers standpoint.

 

Again this seems to be the same problem as the sorc corruption nerf, Bioware please reduce the level of the change that you are doing because as it is you are making huge changes numbers wise without actually have these changes on a Public Test Server in order to actually gauge these changes among a larger player base that can potentially try these changes in pvp, Nightmare (I know you label it as Master Mode) operations, and flashpoints and uprisings. The simple scale of the changes that you are doing should require public testing not just internal testing because they affect a significant part of the player base.

 

Agreed. This should be tested on the pts.

[azamba]

I love this sentence. Let's nerf every class in the game for class balance, so in effect no class balance has been affected because everyone's been nerfed so the classes remain relative just with lower numbers heh.

 

Sadly, I think that's exactly what they are going to do, every class, every spec will be cut up, and everyone will be disappointed because even classes that weren't overperforming will lose something as well. Brillant strategy. We're already seeing this with DPS sorcs.

 

I meant, every class that NEEDs a nerf, as was well implied, as in the ones they have already mentioned. Or else we will have maras and Ops way above everyone else on 5.3.

As for the classes that are under performing, they said they will buff them. Now, when or how, that's a different story. Like I said, all that should be done at the same time to avoid huge gaps between classes. Also, should be tested on PTS first, but that probably won't happen, so...

Edited June 24, 2017 by azamba

[Lahandra]

So if you`re playing the 2 cull Rotation right now, it's clear you don't have energy issues. I didn't have issues so far for like 95% of the time. But playing the spec on it's max (with a 3 cull rota) it is possible at the moment if you're not lucky with crits that you have to use rifle shot sometimes and that you get energy issues in some weird situations but it's ok.

 

That was kinda my point..... We currently have a spec that even when played improperly still puts up crazy high numbers. Playing the spec in 3 cull and using RS to compensate still really isn't that difficult, especially when you factor in movement and such in an op where you're forced to use RS as a filler in some cases anyway, or something of that nature. The long and short of it though is that the spec was clearly OP for the target they are shooting for, which is likely under the 10k mark.

 

And yes it will be still viable, i just hope that all the people who now say everything is ok with this nerf, everybody stop whining, won't be the same who reroll a Maro after the patch and stop playing sniper.

Maybe I overreacted a little bit cause i really love the spec but we'll see were we end after the patch, cause atm nobody can test all these changes.

 

I think the entire community is overreacting to the changes that are proposed. They may not even go into effect as originally posted. That's the blessing/curse with the devs being so transparent. The L2P crowd is going to cry like babies because they will actually have to L2P, or are losing a godlike class that they rolled because it was the FOTM. The great thing about sniper is we have 3 specs to choose from, and all three are viable in one way or another throughout the op's and pvp content we currently have. So yeah, Vir taking a small hit (800-900 dps) isn't really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and when everything else is balanced looks like it will be sitting in a pretty good place. I love the spec as well, but honestly what I love more is the class as a whole, and the utilization of all three specs for varying content.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Lahandra

[PennyAnn]

 

I love this video. I hate that more changes that make no sense are going into the game. I had hoped that with a producer who actually plays the game they are working on things like this would improve.

 

You change the DPS of Arsenal but leave their defensives alone? Really??

 

Sorc changes are fine, particularly roaming mend which has been abused forever. Even the tool tip says you can't use it on more than one person at a time, but it has never worked that way and made sorc healing unbalanced for PvP (even as it is only middle of the road for PvE).

 

Now this... Oye!

[kvandertulip]

The great thing about sniper is we have 3 specs to choose from, and all three are viable in one way or another throughout the op's and pvp content we currently have.

 

You could argue that Virulence is not that great of a pvp spec in its current state. If these changes make it through intact it will no longer be viable in pvp. I suspect it will be the absolute worst of all specs in pvp.

[Toraak]

I've played a sniper in all spec's since 2.0 in HM/NiM content, and honestly I'm not seeing where any of these changes will gut this class. The cull damage will hurt some, but honestly the Lethal shot poison reduction will just have us change to a slightly different rotation, and still pull solid DPS numbers. Looking at these changes doesn't look like it'll have that much effect on my DPS personally. Maybe a 300-500 drop, but that isn't that bad, since they are making energy management slightly easier now with Lethal Takedown. It just means less Lethal shots, and more Takedown/SoS in the rotation, nothing difficult.

[Lahandra]

You could argue that Virulence is not that great of a pvp spec in its current state. If these changes make it through intact it will no longer be viable in pvp. I suspect it will be the absolute worst of all specs in pvp.

 

I didn't say all three were viable for every individual aspect of the game though. All three are viable across all the content. MM and engi for PVP, primarily MM. And all three for PVE HM/NiM op's (fight dependent of course). Vir has pretty much always been the least favorable spec in PVP, nothing new there.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Lahandra

[Burgdawg]

Ok, with the nerfs to sorc heals, arsenal mercs, ect I wouldn't mind a minor nerf to my main class/spec, but a 25% nerf to wounding shots KILLS this spec for pvp. We're already next to useless in arena and were underperforming the other two specs in pvp (MM has better burst, and rightly so, and engineering can put out big numbers, is harder to play, but comes with mezzes). The damage from Cull is the only thing that gets kills in pvp, and now I'd be better off throwing dots, freighter flyby, and just spamming my aoe the entire time and just foregoing any single target damage at all. And so much for bursting down a healer that can already cleanse my dots.

PS: Your 'but we're fixing your damage output' thing is bs, good usage of cool head was enough to keep my energy management in check in pve and pvp, play the game you keep wrecking sometime and feel our pain...

[mmmbuddah]

Really, damage of cull down by a quarter? May i enquire the reasoning, since Cull is the only ability that deals any real damage....

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. That ability did not need nerfing in any way shape or form.....

[mmmbuddah]

It honestly seems like they want to bring down dps for everyone, considering the dps nerf to commando, and them not addressing damage from lightning.

[Equeliber]

It seems that more than a half of posters here (especially the most vocal ones that scream that Viru is dead) don't even understand HOW CULL WORKS.

 

The 25% reduction affects ONLY WHITE weapon damage of Cull. DoT damage stays the same! Cull makes the DoTs do damage but they are separate abilities! Look at any parse, search for Cull line and THAT will be 25% weaker. Top. 2 and 3 damage cobtributors stay literally the same...

 

Jesus, overreacting so hard. Viru clearly is overperforming. These changes will only make it more challenging which is a good thing. 2-Cull rotation should have been forgotten long ago anyway.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Equeliber

[Mikimaster]

As i just dont seem to understand the impact of this can someone more knowledgeable explain it to me plz. Specifically the last part of this line:

 

Weakening Blast deals 11% more damage, costs 5 energy, and is no longer triggered by weapon damage from Cull

 

Thanks in advance

[Equeliber]

As i just dont seem to understand the impact of this can someone more knowledgeable explain it to me plz. Specifically the last part of this line:

 

Weakening Blast deals 11% more damage, costs 5 energy, and is no longer triggered by weapon damage from Cull

 

Thanks in advance

 

Weakening blast's description: "Deals weapon damage and for the next 10 seconds causes the target to take additional weapon damage whenever it takes damage from your Cull or a poison effect"

 

Now it will be "Deals weapon damage and for the next 10 seconds causes the target to take additional weapon damage whenever it takes damage from your poison effects"

 

Cull itself won't trigger the bonus damage from weakening blast, that's it. All the DoTs during Cull will still trigger it.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Equeliber

[Burgdawg]

Weakening blast's description: "Deals weapon damage and for the next 10 seconds causes the target to take additional weapon damage whenever it takes damage from your Cull or a poison effect"

 

Now it will be "Deals weapon damage and for the next 10 seconds causes the target to take additional weapon damage whenever it takes damage from your poison effects"

 

Cull itself won't trigger the bonus damage from weakening blast, that's it. All the DoTs during Cull will still trigger it.

Ok please explain why the previous posters are experiencing an approx 800dps drop on pts parses?

[Toraak]

They aren't. They are guessing. The changes aren't on the PTS from my understanding so the DPS is being based on previous parses they've had, and then doing math on abilities % increase or decrease. It's mathmatics only. None of us truly know how much DPS loss it will be, but it also will depend on rotations being used. The truth is we may need to change up our rotations some.

[Burgdawg]

They aren't. They are guessing. The changes aren't on the PTS from my understanding so the DPS is being based on previous parses they've had, and then doing math on abilities % increase or decrease. It's mathmatics only. None of us truly know how much DPS loss it will be, but it also will depend on rotations being used. The truth is we may need to change up our rotations some.

 

Ok, so if you break the parse down by damage per ability your dots do more than wounding shots, but wounding shots still does roughly 16-17% of your damage. So figuring if you're doing 8500 dps and your cut 4% of that out it's still about 300-400 dps... still drastic as well as taking away your only burst. http://parsely.io/parser/view/245908/1

[Toraak]

Ok, so if you break the parse down by damage per ability your dots do more than wounding shots, but wounding shots still does roughly 16-17% of your damage. So figuring if you're doing 8500 dps and your cut 4% of that out it's still about 300-400 dps... still drastic as well as taking away your only burst. http://parsely.io/parser/view/245908/1

 

 

This is my guess as well, also, take into account however you may use Takedown every time it procs now (since your poison damage is reduced so much from Lethal shot, and the proc'ed takedown costs 3 less energy now, so not as much of an energy issue to use it.) so that could increase your damage as well, and if you skipped using SoS at all in the past, you may use that more. So basically I agree it'll probably be more like 300-500 dps drop, but we may need to slightly alter our rotations to do it. They are going under the belief that they will stay with the same rotation. (I am not).

[realleaftea]

Ok, let's check the numbers and comment the changes

 

Nerfing Cull

 

Normal

Cull (old): ~14k per use = ~7k per GCD

Cull (new): 10.5~11k per use = 5.25k~5.5k per GCD

 

Depending on whether you interpret "a 25% nerf" as either MULTI(0.75) or DIV(1.25), the new Cull deal 10.5~11k damage. The potential 5.25k per GCD would make it almost as bad as the 4.6k of a Rapid Shot.

 

Cull will be one of the worst 'non-basic' skills, should you ever use it on the wrong target!

So does BioWare hate newbies now or why didn't they nerf the DoTs instead?

 

But Cull also triggers both the Corrosive Dart DoT & the Corrosive Grenade DoT four times. With ~2k damage per tick per DoT, that's a total of 16k.

 

With both DoTs

Cull (old): 14k + 16k = 30k per use = ~15k per GCD

Cull (new): 11k + 16k = 27k per use = 13.5k per GCD

 

This should give you an expession of the overall nerf

 

And you can still activate Weakening Blast to deal ~0.7k extra damage whenever Cull or a poison effect deals damage. In other words, it will trigger 12 times for a total of +8.4k damage (with the upcoming changes, it's ~6.2k in total)

 

With both DoTs and WB

Cull (old): 30k + 8,4k = 38.4k per use = 19.2k per GCD

Cull (new): 27k + 6.2k = 33.2k per use = 16.6k per GCD

 

Cull (old + new WB): 30k + 6,2k = 36.2k per use = 18.1k per GCD

 

And this is actually one of my complains:

Why does BioWare believe 19.2k per GCD is too powerful or too bursty?

 

In comparison, an IO-Merc's Mag Bolt deals ~16.5k damage but also triggers a ~4.5k burn over 6s (3x 1.5k Combustible Gas Cylinder ticks), actually resulting in 18k initial damage and ~21k damage in total,. Mag Bolt can as well be resetted and doesn't require anything to be used in advance!!! So how can 21k be ok for one spec, but a 19.2k skill be too bursty for another, although the latter requires the use of 3 skills in advance?

 

What about the 18.1k per GCD in case BioWare would just alter Weakening Blast? Still too bursty?

 

The Lethal Shot nerf

But let's go on! The Lethal Shot changes are IMO quite resonable. Currently, Lethal Shot deals ~10.5k damage on average. Including the 0.7k from Weakening Blast, that's ~11k. In comparison:

 

Takedown: ~11k per use/GCD

Series of Shots: ~9k per GCD (~18k per use)

Orbital Strike: ~13k per GCD (~17.5k per use) (due to the 2.0s cast time)

Covered Escape Mines: ~9.2k per use/GCD (but free of cost)

 

So there's no reason to even care about Takedown, especially since Lethal Shot might also refund some energy. The proposed changes would bring the avg. damage of Lethal Shot down to ~9.3k (~10k with WB). Finally, it makes sense to replace Lethal Shot with Takedown every 9s.

________________________________

 

What I would do:

 

Lethal Shot & Cull

 

First of all, I would also apply BioWare's Lethal Shot nerf, but would alter it slightly. Currently, the Decay passive increases the damage of Cull & Lethal Shot by 5%. I would remove this part of the passive skill and soften the nerf of Lethal Shot instead. But more importantly:

 

I would lower the duration of both Corrosive Grenade & Corrosive Dart to 18s.

In case a replacement for Lethal Injectors is required, lower the original damage of Corrosive Grenade and add a corresponding damage boost to this passive

 

It would force players to recast these DoTs more often, also resulting in a certain DPS loss. In a 48 GCD cycle (72s), a player would be forced to cast both DoTs 4x instead of 3x, resulting in a loss of 2 damaging skills (most likely 2x Lethal Shot). On the other hand however, that player should have used Cull 8x times by then.

 

My proposal therefore replaces a 8x 25% nerf for Cull (= 200% in total) with a loss of 2 other skills. And as long as a 'blank' Cull deals more damage per use than the skill lost, my proposal would result in a slightly lower DPS loss.

 

Let's take a 2.5m parse as an example.

Cull will probably contribute ~400k damage in total. A 25% nerf would be equal to a loss of ~100k damage. With my proprosal, the player would have to use both DoTs 4x more times, at worst replacing 8x Lethal Shots (~11k damage). That's equal to a loss of 88k damage!

 

And the shortened duration would have no negative inpact on a Virulence Rotation whatsoever.

Instead, it would simplify the rotation a bit and would keep a 'blank' Cull more useful

 

Furthermore, the Targeted Demolition passive shouldn't provides a 5% damage boost for Corrosive Grenade. In addition, I would lower the damage of the Grenade by 4% in order to increase the chance that a DoT ticks twice from 10% => 15% (for both the Grenade & the Dart).

 

Energy Management

Personally, I would love to see the energy management be adjusted more drastically. To avoid the extreme focus on crit. chance, I would change the following:

 

 

• increase the energy cost of Corrosive Grenade to 15 (from 10)
  
• increase the energy cost of Cull to 30 (15 per GCD)
  
• increase the energy cost of Series of Shots to 30 (15 per GCD)
  
• whenever a poison scores a normal hit, it refunds 1 energy

 

It would increase the required amount of energy of a 18s rotation by +17 (2x +6 Cull; 1x +5 Grenade). But at the same time, the DoTs would tick 7x each, two Culls would result in 16 more ticks and there will be at least 6x more poison hits due to Lethal Shot. That's a total of 36 poison effects! Assuming a 50% crit. chance, 18 energy would be refunded... so it would equal things quite nicely.

 

EDIT:

There might even be a simple solution. No energy on a normal poison hit, but rather and Increased passive energy regeneration for all Snipers. I.e. +6 energy per sec instead of +5. This would also result in +18 energy per rotation.

 

The mob group energy management

Currently, the more targets affected by your poisionous DoTs, the better your energy management.

 

Fighting a mob of 8 - with both DoTs spreaded onto each target - can result in +16 energy every 2 GCDs (DoTs tick every 2 GCDs). Fighting two PvE bosses that stand next to each other will also make things easier. That's unfair!

yes, it would be worse with my proposal above

 

That's why I would want Weakening Blast to refund energy instead.

 

Due to the fact that it is triggered whenever a poison effect deals damage, it would be an indirection. Not the poison refunds the energy, the thing that is triggered on poison damage does...

 

The advantage: Weakening Blast can't be spreaded onto multiple targets.

The disadvantage: Weakening Blast lasts for 10s every 18s. So it would be weaker than a passive bonus.

 

But the disadvantage can be negated. Targeted Demolition (or Razor Rounds) could decrease the cost of Cull from 30 back to 24, resulting in +12 energy restored every 18s. The Lethal Takedown passive can lower the cost of the next Takedown by up to 15 energy, resulting in up to ~30 energy refunded per 18s rotaion... enough to balance out the deficit.

 

Last side note:

Independant of the proposals above, also please consider these minor tweaks:

 

- No 5% damage boost via Decay (Cull & Lethal Shot), but soften the nerf (already mentioned)

 

- Instead of passively increasing the damage of Weakening Blast, improve the Caustic Substances passive

 

- Consider to increase the original energy cost of Cull and to let Targeted Demolition (or Razor Rounds) lower the cost of Cull back to 24 energy. It wouldn't change the resulting energy requirement (well, at least after level 40). but the passives would be more focused on an equal treatment of both the normal skills (Series of Shots) and the ones that are unique to this spec (Cull).

Edited July 3, 2017 by realleaftea
spelling mistakes & mishap in the number of times a gas cylinder burn ticks