Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

the idea that they would have ghetto dps specs like this is idiotic. until they see this, they will never have balance

 

The only upside to this, and I use "upside" cautiosly, is that with the nerfs to Merc DPS and in all likelihood Sniper DPS, if the numbers people are theorizing are correct, Lightniing will be possibly better than Merc DPS, comprable to MM, and if they follow form the other Sniper specs will get lowered as well [but I think they will maintain the rDPS DPS edge in all liklihood being a "pure DPS class" if you can still call it that heh. Lightning won't be improved of course DPS wise, but it will be in the realm of other rDPS specs. I'm not sure you could call this a good turn of events for Lightning of course, but, if the other ranged specs aren't offer much more DPS it won't matter as much for Lightining because they wont be so totally insanely outclassed DPS wise. This is speculative of course..

 

Nerfing DPS sorc self heals was just about the stupidest thing they've done to date with this "class balancing". It makes absolutely no sense, it seemingly defies all logic. They should have gotten a buff to their self heals. If any DPS spec in this game should have the best self-heals going, it is definately sorc. It makes sense, it follows suit, and is totally in keeping with lore. They have the strongest connection to the force of all the force using classes.

 

I am no fan of DPS specs with strong self heals, Sorc should be the exception. Admittedly, I don't play a Sorc, you couldn't pay me to play one [but I value you them nonetheless, just not my style is all], I gain nothing by saying this.

 

You don't need to play a Sorc to utilize a little common sense, and show some solidarity for a class [DPS specs} that so did not deserve to have thier self heals lowered.

 

Even if their is no outright DPS buff involved, had they buffed their self heals some, given them a bit more survivability, that in and of itself results in a DPS gain in most instances, of the class is used to it's potential.

 

If Snipers end up with better self heals than DPS sorc, that should be a friggen crime.

 

BioWare - Buff their self heals, throw them a damn bone, do the right thing for them here.

[ChillingFear]

Balancing around some magically dps/hps target number doesn't even remotely account for the problem of class/role stacking thanks to matchmaking. I'd personally wait the extra time for a queue pop to ensure that balanced team roles at the very least were part of the queue pop than getting more pops but having matchmaking not care if one team has 5 healers stacked while the other team can have none even in same faction games etc. This is a prime example on why choosing to balance classes the way they have chosen to do it doesn't work in practice. It takes way too many variables out of play. We can all agree sorc/sage healing needed to be toned down but holy crap. I feel for the sage/sorc mains out there. Class/role stacking is a huge contributing issue to why warzones are unbalanced and killing teams are an issue. Healing output overall in game needs to be toned down but matchmaking in-game is a bigger issue and it shows with nerfs like this.

 

They wonder why people question if the devs play the game. Changes like this are insane, especially with no level of public testing, then again with matchmaking the way it is PTS testing won't matter it'll be like the last PTS PVP test that went live, 80% of the PVP queue was healers since it doesn't matter how many of any role are on a team. Well on the plus side i'll be able to faceroll sage/sorc heals now

[Scatmanworlds]

the best balancing buff a sorc could recieve would be to give them medium armor, like other ranged dps class's.

this would resolve a lot of the squishyness, and make it easier to balance between the class's

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Balancing around some magically dps/hps target number doesn't even remotely account for the problem of class/role stacking thanks to matchmaking. I'd personally wait the extra time for a queue pop to ensure that balanced team roles at the very least were part of the queue pop than getting more pops but having matchmaking not care if one team has 5 healers stacked while the other team can have none even in same faction games etc. This is a prime example on why choosing to balance classes the way they have chosen to do it doesn't work in practice. It takes way too many variables out of play. We can all agree sorc/sage healing needed to be toned down but holy crap. I feel for the sage/sorc mains out there. Class/role stacking is a huge contributing issue to why warzones are unbalanced and killing teams are an issue. Healing output overall in game needs to be toned down but matchmaking in-game is a bigger issue and it shows with nerfs like this.

 

They wonder why people question if the devs play the game. Changes like this are insane, especially with no level of public testing, then again with matchmaking the way it is PTS testing won't matter it'll be like the last PTS PVP test that went live, 80% of the PVP queue was healers since it doesn't matter how many of any role are on a team. Well on the plus side i'll be able to faceroll sage/sorc heals now

 

I understand your concerns, I really do, while I don't play a sorc, I value them greatly as allies. I don't think any other class has provided more support function for me as a Carnage Marauder, both heal spec and DPS sorcs as well. When you can't heal yourself at all, it's very easy to see the difference not only made by the sorc healers, but even sorc DPS. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I was pulled out of certain death by a Sorc pulls, dozens and dozens of times. Now, to do that, that means sorc DPS instead of DPSing, put thier dps numbers on hold, to take the time to get my sorry *** out of the fire. So many times i get off heals by sorc DPS that literally change the outcome of a situation single handedly.

 

It's not always about DPS. [i wish I could learn this lesson myself heh], there are so many ways to contribute to your team, your allies, the guy who's peeling for you, the tank that's guarding you, and I have to say, I don't care what anyone says about Sorcs DPS or heals, no other class is better suited, able, and by all appearences at least in my experience, willing to offer support to their fellow team mates more than Sorcs. As far as I'm concerned, that says a lot about the people who choose to main the class. I've never played one, I never will, and I don't care what the numbers are, raiding or PVP, I want them on my team.

 

I agree with you, sorc healers did need some trimming. But this? This is just a carving. Even if it appears it needs big cuts, if you are not going to play test changes of this magnitude to any class on the PTS, than you make the changes incrementally. You can always trim a bit more off later if it's deemed warranted.

 

Match making would be idea. However, I fear it's simply unrealistic. People do not want to sit around for a half hour waiting for a pop. I'm not all that tech savy, but I recall the way FP queces use to work where in it sought to make trinity teams. When they did away with that, pops for FPs became much faster. But faster isn't always better, anyone who's gotten stuck in some of the FPS with all DPS groups, quickly learned that unless the players were exceptional, your run can run into issues. You cannot account for skill in queces sometimes you'd get lucky quecing and sometimes you wouldn't. In theory, Matchmaking would be ideal, but I fear not everyone is quite as pragmatic as you are in that regard.

 

I said it before, limit the self healing DPS specs have [although I think DPS Sorcs should have the highest self heals], make them less personally self-sustaining, and healers job's would become more intensive because more players would be needing their attentions at the same time.

[ChillingFear]

I understand your concerns, I really do, while I don't play a sorc, I value them greatly as allies. I don't think any other class has provided more support function for me as a Carnage Marauder, both heal spec and DPS sorcs as well. When you can't heal yourself at all, it's very easy to see the difference not only made by the sorc healers, but even sorc DPS. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I was pulled out of certain death by a Sorc pulls, dozens and dozens of times. Now, to do that, that means sorc DPS instead of DPSing, put thier dps numbers on hold, to take the time to get my sorry *** out of the fire. So many times i get off heals by sorc DPS that literally change the outcome of a situation single handedly.

 

It's not always about DPS. [i wish I could learn this lesson myself heh], there are so many ways to contribute to your team, your allies, the guy who's peeling for you, the tank that's guarding you, and I have to say, I don't care what anyone says about Sorcs DPS or heals, no other class is better suited, able, and by all appearences at least in my experience, willing to offer support to their fellow team mates more than Sorcs. As far as I'm concerned, that says a lot about the people who choose to main the class. I've never played one, I never will, and I don't care what the numbers are, raiding or PVP, I want them on my team.

 

I agree with you, sorc healers did need some trimming. But this? This is just a carving. Even if it appears it needs big cuts, if you are not going to play test changes of this magnitude to any class on the PTS, than you make the changes incrementally. You can always trim a bit more off later if it's deemed warranted.

 

Match making would be idea. However, I fear it's simply unrealistic. People do not want to sit around for a half hour waiting for a pop. I'm not all that tech savy, but I recall the way FP queces use to work where in it sought to make trinity teams. When they did away with that, pops for FPs became much faster. But faster isn't always better, anyone who's gotten stuck in some of the FPS with all DPS groups, quickly learned that unless the players were exceptional, your run can run into issues. You cannot account for skill in queces sometimes you'd get lucky quecing and sometimes you wouldn't. In theory, Matchmaking would be ideal, but I fear not everyone is quite as pragmatic as you are in that regard.

 

I said it before, limit the self healing DPS specs have [although I think DPS Sorcs should have the highest self heals], make them less personally self-sustaining, and healers job's would become more intensive because more players would be needing their attentions at the same time.

 

Agree with everything except the matchmaking being unrealistic part. Nobody is asking for a 100% even system across the board for all roles (tanks, heals dps etc). But when same faction games pop and one team has 3 heals and the other team has none, matchmaking isn't taking ANYTHING into account. Bioware can't have its cake and eat it too. If they are taking steps to "balance" classes (and I use balancing loosely here) then matchmaking is an integral part of that due to role stacking as it magnifies what the role and their magical HPS/DPS target goals are. I'm baffled that more people aren't talking about this.

 

There are loads of reasons that just balancing around a target goal and nothing else is a bad idea, and not taking into account class utilities is mind boggling. So yes keep beating that drum, but matchmaking is just as much of an issue, things aren't gonna be perfect, but when matchmaking is simply taking a queue'd number of players and throwing them together disregarding roles and not trying to at least ATTEMPT to disperse them evenly then there is major improvements needed to be made under the hood. Will queue pops take a bit longer? Sure, will having a better (not even perfect just better) system in place to balance roles on teams have closer balanced games? By definition it will since those roles serve different purposes. There needs to be some level of give and take here, quantity over quality in games is what we are talking here. If they are looking for any level of balance this needs to change

 

Class roles serve different purposes, if you aren't gonna have some level of system in place to take that into account why even have roles then. Screw it make everyone dps, or tanks, or just heals etc. I dont even play Sage/Sorc heals so their "gutting" here while insane is irrelevant at this point. This applies to all the classes being touched. Matchmaking NEEDS to change and be tweaked under the hood to take SOMETHING into account.

Edited June 25, 2017 by ChillingFear

[Scatmanworlds]

I play sorc, near singularly

If an op is running short on burst dps, ill run lightening. if a group is struggling with heals, ill switch to madness, because that extra 2k hps self heal means the healers can dedicate more time on other dps. if i see a tank too low on health, ill slap a bubble and my insta hot on him to keep him going till the healers grab him. yes it messes up the dps, but a dead tank messes things up more...

 

but the one reasonably good DcD a sorc has is the bubble, and that is too thin as it is. look at sniper shield or merc shield. they can absorb 50,60,70, 80k worth of damage without a scratch, yet the sorc one pop's at a 10k hit...

 

basically the sorc bubble needs a multiplyer when used on self, so that it can absorb 50k but only 10k on other players.

[ivanhedgehog]

I understand your concerns, I really do, while I don't play a sorc, I value them greatly as allies. I don't think any other class has provided more support function for me as a Carnage Marauder, both heal spec and DPS sorcs as well. When you can't heal yourself at all, it's very easy to see the difference not only made by the sorc healers, but even sorc DPS. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I was pulled out of certain death by a Sorc pulls, dozens and dozens of times. Now, to do that, that means sorc DPS instead of DPSing, put thier dps numbers on hold, to take the time to get my sorry *** out of the fire. So many times i get off heals by sorc DPS that literally change the outcome of a situation single handedly.

 

It's not always about DPS. [i wish I could learn this lesson myself heh], there are so many ways to contribute to your team, your allies, the guy who's peeling for you, the tank that's guarding you, and I have to say, I don't care what anyone says about Sorcs DPS or heals, no other class is better suited, able, and by all appearences at least in my experience, willing to offer support to their fellow team mates more than Sorcs. As far as I'm concerned, that says a lot about the people who choose to main the class. I've never played one, I never will, and I don't care what the numbers are, raiding or PVP, I want them on my team.

 

I agree with you, sorc healers did need some trimming. But this? This is just a carving. Even if it appears it needs big cuts, if you are not going to play test changes of this magnitude to any class on the PTS, than you make the changes incrementally. You can always trim a bit more off later if it's deemed warranted.

 

Match making would be idea. However, I fear it's simply unrealistic. People do not want to sit around for a half hour waiting for a pop. I'm not all that tech savy, but I recall the way FP queces use to work where in it sought to make trinity teams. When they did away with that, pops for FPs became much faster. But faster isn't always better, anyone who's gotten stuck in some of the FPS with all DPS groups, quickly learned that unless the players were exceptional, your run can run into issues. You cannot account for skill in queces sometimes you'd get lucky quecing and sometimes you wouldn't. In theory, Matchmaking would be ideal, but I fear not everyone is quite as pragmatic as you are in that regard.

 

I said it before, limit the self healing DPS specs have [although I think DPS Sorcs should have the highest self heals], make them less personally self-sustaining, and healers job's would become more intensive because more players would be needing their attentions at the same time.

 

They cant afforrd to have an entire class made useless like this for the amount of time it will take them to wake up and realize that sorcs need lifesupport. People that have spent 6 months leveling up their sorc main will be leaving the game rather than doing it again on another class. The devs cant afford to have another large group leave the game.

[Volxen]

A ~20% healing decrease (averaged based on usage) across all skills when hps output was not the biggest issue to begin with. This strategy overnerfs raw output while not properly address the problems with sorc/sage healing.

 

There are currently two major issues with sorc/sage healing compared to the other classes:

 

The first is that due to simple and overly-forgiving force management combined with over-utilization of 'smart' healing abilities, they're much easier to play at an effective level.

 

The other issue, which is what sees sorcs rising to the top particularly in ranked pvp, is the high mobility and lack of necessary hard casting due to most of the healing being loaded into instant and 'smart' abilities.

 

 

The proposed changes will have a severe negative impact healers at all skill levels. If it does knock sorcs and sages out of 'fotm' status, it'll only be because the healing output is so far behind the other classes.

 

Any metrics you have showing that sorcs have a significantly higher output than the other classes is due to the fact that target selection and resource management are a lot more forgiving than other classes which allows inexperienced players able to put up bigger numbers than their skill suggests.

 

 

With all of that being said, here is my counter-proposal with explanations for each item:

 

• Increase the cooldown of roaming mend by 5 seconds (15 to 20s)
  
• Reduce the base force regenerated by consuming darkness from 40 to 25
  
• Increase the force regenerated by consuming darkness by consuming 1 stack of force surge to 15 (up from 5)
  

 

(for the)DevNotes: The 5 second cooldown increase to roaming mend will increase the time between burst windows and force healers to think creatively both about what to do with the 3~ extra gcds between mends as well as think more carefully about it's usage as not to waste the potential. The end result is a 30% hps decrease for the ability and approximately a 4% hps decrease overall.

 

It's impossible to make roaming mend ineffective as a single target heal (unless you nerf it by more than 50% or prevent it from hitting a target more than once), but this strategy forces players to do more casting (particularly infusion in single target) between mends.

 

The changes to consuming darkness make resource management important. Overall force management will be tighter due to the decreased force regeneration of consuming darkness with force surge stacks (by 5). This will reduce sustained hps by a further 5% or so due to the added consumes needed to maintain force. In addition, the steep decrease in base the base regen of consuming darkness will make using it without force surge very costly in terms of healing downtime.

 

These adjustments address both the sustained and burst healing targets, but do so in a way that creates a noticeable skill progression for the class. The maximum healing will go down moderately while the average healing outputs will probably drop sharply to become more in line with other classes at relative experience levels.

 

Please just listen to this person Bioware.

[realleaftea]

Needs a tl;dr lol

No problem:

 

Tl;dr

Sorcerer:

Dark Heal

No 4.86% nerf → keep it at ~15k per GCD

 

Dark Infusion

Boost heal by ~18% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Don't nerf the Resurgence bonus for Dark Infusion → keep the -0.5s activation time

 

Innervate

Nerf heal by ~20% → should heal 14k per GCD (~23k per use)

Keep the 20% faster channel duration for Innervate

 

Roaming Mend

I completely agree with BioWare's 25.22% nerf

 

To sum it up

The nerf of Roaming Mend is justified because it's way too powerful for a single GCD heal. Roaming Mend at least must be channeled for 2.5s and can be interrupted. Rather than nerfing Dark Infusion & Dark Heal, nerf Innervate to make the Sorcerer less effective while moving.

 

These changes require the following nerfs for the other two healer specs

 

Mercenary:

Healing Scan

Nerf it by ~15% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Consider to remove the instant cast via Emergency Scan

 

Emergency Scan

[Optional] Limit it to the healer spec only

 

Kolto Shell

no upgrades → keep it at 6 stacks & a 3s limit per stack

nerf heal by ~10% → should heal ~17k in total

[Optional] Make it available for every spec

 

Kolto Missile

Increase cooldown to 9s.

[Optional]

Lower the initial damage by 50% → to 3.5k

Increase the duration of the Kolto Pods from 3s to 9s

 

To sum it up

Healing Scan is obscenely powerful, especially if it's an instant cast crit. Kolto Missile should be a longer HoT, because Mercs do have many instant heals, but not enough HoTs

 

Operative:

Surgical Probe

Boost it by ~40% → should heal ~12.5k per GCD

 

Kolto Waves

Increase cooldown to 15s (from 10s) → it's not a HoT like Revivication

 

Recup. Nanotech

Shorten duration to 6s (from 9s)

Shorten cooldown to 6s (from 15s)

Nerf heal by ~25% → should heal ~10.5k total (1.5k per tick)

 

To sum it up

Recup. Nanotech shouldn't heal more than the 10.5k per GCD of other AoEs (Revivication & Kolto Waves).

 

Recup. Nanotech should be way more bursty (lower duration) and have an insanely low CD. Operatives have way too many HoTs and it needs a bursty AoE in order to compensate for the obscenely large area of effects of Roaming Mend // Progressive Scan.

 

Surgical Probe should be the Operative's variant of a Sorc's Resurgence & Innervate or a Merc's Emergency Scan & instant Healing Scan.

 

If you want to see a more detailed analysis, please check out my longer reply

Edited June 25, 2017 by realleaftea

[Lahandra]

Nerfing DPS sorc self heals was just about the stupidest thing they've done to date with this "class balancing". It makes absolutely no sense, it seemingly defies all logic. They should have gotten a buff to their self heals. If any DPS spec in this game should have the best self-heals going, it is definately sorc. It makes sense, it follows suit, and is totally in keeping with lore. They have the strongest connection to the force of all the force using classes.

 

Honestly though, is Survivability really that big a deal for DPS sorcs?? Never had an issue with it in HM or NiM ops, or PVP for that matter prior to 5.0..... Lightning might have a bone to pick, but certainly not madness. Between self cleansing and raid awareness damage in ops is certainly avoidable, and I don't see these nerfs being a game changer to the extent of changing that. The only reason the sorc became useless for endgame was due to the DPS loss..... Add some self heal for lightning in their rotation and it solves that issue.....

[ivanhedgehog]

No problem:

 

Tl;dr

Sorcerer:

Dark Heal

No 4.86% nerf → keep it at ~15k per GCD

 

Dark Infusion

Boost heal by ~18% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Don't nerf the Resurgence bonus for Dark Infusion → keep the -0.5s activation time

 

Innervate

Nerf heal by ~20% → should heal 14k per GCD (~23k per use)

Keep the 20% faster channel duration for Innervate

 

Roaming Mend

I completely agree with BioWare's 25.22% nerf

 

To sum it up

The nerf of Roaming Mend is necessary because it's too powerful for a single GCD heal. Roaming Mend must be channeled and can be interrupted.

Rather than nerfing Dark Infusion & Dark Heal, nerf Innervate to make the Sorcerer less effective while mobile.

 

These changes require the following nerfs for the other two healer specs

 

Mercenary:

Rapid Scan

No nerf → keep it at ~15k per GCD

 

Healing Scan

Nerf it by ~15% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Consider to remove the instant cast via Emergency Scan

 

Emergency Scan

[Optional] Limit it to the healer spec only

 

Kolto Shell

no upgrades → keep it at 6 stacks & a 3s limit per stack

nerf heal by ~10% → should heal ~17k in total

[Optional] Make it available for every spec

 

Kolto Missile

Increase cooldown to 9s.

[Optional]

Lower the initial damage by 50% → to 3.5k

Increase the duration of the Kolto Pods from 3s to 9s

 

To sum it up

Healing Scan is obscenely powerful, especially if it's an instant cast.

Kolto Missile should be a HoT, because Mercs do have too many instant heals, but not enough HoTs

 

Operative:

Surgical Probe

Boost it by ~40% → should heal ~12.5k per GCD

 

Recup. Nanotech

Nerf duration to 6s (from 9s)

Shorten cooldown to 6s (from 15s)

Nerf heal by ~25% → should heal ~10.5k total (1.5k per tick)

 

Kolto Waves

Increase cooldown to 15s (from 10s) → it's not a HoT like Revivication

 

To sum it up

Recuperative Nanotechs shouldn't heal more than the usual 10.5k per GCD of other AoEs (Revivication & Kolto Waves). And whereas a normal AoE hits 8 targets and Roaming Mend & Progressive Scan have an insane area of effect, this skill will shine to to it's insanely lower CD.

Surgical Probe should be the Operative's variant of a Sorc's Resurgence & Innervate or a Merc's Emergency Scan & instant Healing Scan.

 

If you want to see a more detailed analysis, please check out my longer reply

 

how about you keep your nerfs for pvp in pvp. stop nerfing pve because of pvp mobility.

[Lahandra]

I play sorc, near singularly

If an op is running short on burst dps, ill run lightening. if a group is struggling with heals, ill switch to madness, because that extra 2k hps self heal means the healers can dedicate more time on other dps. if i see a tank too low on health, ill slap a bubble and my insta hot on him to keep him going till the healers grab him. yes it messes up the dps, but a dead tank messes things up more...

 

but the one reasonably good DcD a sorc has is the bubble, and that is too thin as it is. look at sniper shield or merc shield. they can absorb 50,60,70, 80k worth of damage without a scratch, yet the sorc one pop's at a 10k hit...

 

basically the sorc bubble needs a multiplyer when used on self, so that it can absorb 50k but only 10k on other players.

 

And this is exactly what I was talking about in the previous post...... If you're doing HM/NiM ops, the only time you should be throwing off heals is if something went wrong..... If you're bubbling or dotting a tank, then the tank or heals are being compensated for. If the dps is taking so much damage that you need to swap to Madness to compensate, then those DPS are doing something wrong and need to learn their DCD's. Long story short, you shouldn't be compensating for other players L2P issues. If it's SM, none of this is an issue regardless.

[ivanhedgehog]

The only upside to this, and I use "upside" cautiosly, is that with the nerfs to Merc DPS and in all likelihood Sniper DPS, if the numbers people are theorizing are correct, Lightniing will be possibly better than Merc DPS, comprable to MM, and if they follow form the other Sniper specs will get lowered as well [but I think they will maintain the rDPS DPS edge in all liklihood being a "pure DPS class" if you can still call it that heh. Lightning won't be improved of course DPS wise, but it will be in the realm of other rDPS specs. I'm not sure you could call this a good turn of events for Lightning of course, but, if the other ranged specs aren't offer much more DPS it won't matter as much for Lightining because they wont be so totally insanely outclassed DPS wise. This is speculative of course..

 

Nerfing DPS sorc self heals was just about the stupidest thing they've done to date with this "class balancing". It makes absolutely no sense, it seemingly defies all logic. They should have gotten a buff to their self heals. If any DPS spec in this game should have the best self-heals going, it is definately sorc. It makes sense, it follows suit, and is totally in keeping with lore. They have the strongest connection to the force of all the force using classes.

 

I am no fan of DPS specs with strong self heals, Sorc should be the exception. Admittedly, I don't play a Sorc, you couldn't pay me to play one [but I value you them nonetheless, just not my style is all], I gain nothing by saying this.

 

You don't need to play a Sorc to utilize a little common sense, and show some solidarity for a class [DPS specs} that so did not deserve to have thier self heals lowered.

 

Even if their is no outright DPS buff involved, had they buffed their self heals some, given them a bit more survivability, that in and of itself results in a DPS gain in most instances, of the class is used to it's potential.

 

If Snipers end up with better self heals than DPS sorc, that should be a friggen crime.

 

BioWare - Buff their self heals, throw them a damn bone, do the right thing for them here.

 

I am thinking that bw cant actually predict what any given change/armor level will do, so they put it in place(5.0) and let it run. OH NOES!! its doing more than they thought it would so they hammer the spec and wait to see what happens. They arent putting it on PTS so that the can ignore all feedback. In 6 months they will realize that no one/very few are doing hm/nim content and wonder why subs are down. They set an arbitrary target for dps and they will get everyone under it come hell or highwater. The difference this time is the fact that people have been leveling command ranks for 7 months and many wont be willing to do it again.

[Dhurwin]

Dark Heal

No 4.86% nerf → keep it at ~15k per GCD

Idk where you people are getting ~15k per gcd for Dark Heal from... Maybe under the effects of both Force Bending AND Recklessness. But we've got better things to spend Force Bending on than tanking our force using Dark Heal.

 

Dark Infusion

Boost heal by ~18% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Don't nerf the Resurgence bonus for Dark Infusion → keep the -0.5s activation time

Agree, gimme dat buff.

 

Innervate

Nerf heal by ~20% → should heal 14k per GCD (~23k per use)

Keep the 20% faster channel duration for Innervate

Don't touch the ability at all would be even better.

 

Roaming Mend

I completely agree with BioWare's 25.22% nerf

I completely don't IDK why every one thinks Sorc Healers SHOULDN'T have access to AoE healing...

 

To sum it up

The nerf of Roaming Mend is justified because it's way too powerful for a single GCD heal. Roaming Mend at least must be channeled for 2.5s and can be interrupted. Rather than nerfing Dark Infusion & Dark Heal, nerf Innervate to make the Sorcerer less effective while moving.

To sum it up - people are mad cause Roaming Mend has the POTENTIAL to heal the same person twice, lessening the ability's AoE, but increasing its single target. You realize that if they added any sort of cast or channel to this ability they'd have to make it heal FOR MORE? The risk of it getting interrupted would force them buff its healing to make it worth the risk to cast in the first place.

[MidnightsMadness]

"Quote: Originally Posted by ProcessHeals

A ~20% healing decrease (averaged based on usage) across all skills when hps output was not the biggest issue to begin with. This strategy overnerfs raw output while not properly address the problems with sorc/sage healing.

 

There are currently two major issues with sorc/sage healing compared to the other classes:

 

The first is that due to simple and overly-forgiving force management combined with over-utilization of 'smart' healing abilities, they're much easier to play at an effective level.

 

The other issue, which is what sees sorcs rising to the top particularly in ranked pvp, is the high mobility and lack of necessary hard casting due to most of the healing being loaded into instant and 'smart' abilities.

 

 

The proposed changes will have a severe negative impact healers at all skill levels. If it does knock sorcs and sages out of 'fotm' status, it'll only be because the healing output is so far behind the other classes.

 

Any metrics you have showing that sorcs have a significantly higher output than the other classes is due to the fact that target selection and resource management are a lot more forgiving than other classes which allows inexperienced players able to put up bigger numbers than their skill suggests.

 

 

With all of that being said, here is my counter-proposal with explanations for each item:

 

Increase the cooldown of roaming mend by 5 seconds (15 to 20s)

Reduce the base force regenerated by consuming darkness from 40 to 25

Increase the force regenerated by consuming darkness by consuming 1 stack of force surge to 15 (up from 5)

 

(for the)DevNotes: The 5 second cooldown increase to roaming mend will increase the time between burst windows and force healers to think creatively both about what to do with the 3~ extra gcds between mends as well as think more carefully about it's usage as not to waste the potential. The end result is a 30% hps decrease for the ability and approximately a 4% hps decrease overall.

 

It's impossible to make roaming mend ineffective as a single target heal (unless you nerf it by more than 50% or prevent it from hitting a target more than once), but this strategy forces players to do more casting (particularly infusion in single target) between mends......."

 

Increase the cooldown of roaming mend by 5 seconds (15 to 20s)

 

Problem solved.

Edited June 26, 2017 by MidnightsMadness

[realleaftea]

how about you keep your nerfs for pvp in pvp. stop nerfing pve because of pvp mobility.

Well, my changes are by no means about PvP only. My proposals are about class balance, which can only be achieved by inter-skill balance.

 

Mercenary:

First if all, you might have noticed that BioWare increased the survivability with 5.0. Mercs got an additional 50% damage reduction, as well as a 70% Kolto Surge, which is basically an insane self-heal ... even in PvE. So you could say they partially revert these improvements now.

 

My changes didn't focus on a 70% Kolto Surge or 50% DR + damage reflect which affects PvP the most, because I'm more about inter-skill balance. So my proposals mainly about Healing Scan. Why? Because a 24k Emergency Heal crit., followed by a 32k instant Healing Scan crit. is the reason why Mercs are considered powerful aingle-target healers and that's a clear inbalance in any scenario ... even PvE... and ruins any balance between skills as well.

 

That inter-skill focus also becomes obvious if you look at the Kolto Missile proposals. The overall effectiveness stays the same, but the heals are spreaded more equally simply because the Mercenary is lIMO acking an HoT.

 

Sorcerer:

In order to keep Dark Heal valuable, it must be better than Innervate. The latter at least stays partially effect, should it get interrupted (f.e. by Revan push/pulls). Furthermore, it can be used while moving, so that has to be calculated in as well.

 

And in order to keep Dark Infusion valueable, it must be better than both Dark Heal or Innervate. So I simply don't understand why BioWare wants to nerf a skill that isn't used at all. But feel free to tell me how often you use Dark Infusion in your rotation.

 

My changes boost Dark Infusion just as much as they nerfed Innervate. This keeps all 3 skills valueable.

 

And as long as a Sorcerer isn't constantly moving and is willing to replace some of their Dark Heals with Dark Infusions, the boost will balance out nerf. And if move constantly, you would suffer the same drawbacks as any other healing class.

_________

 

So the only true change is about Roaming Mend. But once again, my approach is almost completely about class balance and inter-skill balance. Like I wrote earlier, both Roaming Mend and Progressive Scan deal approximately the same total damage.

 

Roaming Mend: 4x 15k = 60k

Progressive Scan: 24k | 18k | 12k | 6k = 60k

 

But whereas Roaming Mend is an instant cast, the Progressive Scan must be channeled for ~2.5s. It's therefore more like 60k per GCD vs. 60k per 2.5s = 36k per GCD.

 

So in order to achieve inter-skill balance and thereby class balance, lowering the healing output is the only way to go. You can still assure a certain HPS score by other means (improving other skills or changing energy efficiency). It's therefore actually the opposite of fairness to keep a broken skill and to nerf the energy efficency instead, which is exactly what ProcessHeals suggested.

 

• Increase the cooldown of roaming mend by 5 seconds (15 to 20s)
  
• Reduce the base force regenerated by consuming darkness from 40 to 25
  
• Increase the force regenerated by consuming darkness by consuming 1 stack of force surge to 15 (up from 5)
  

 

What this acrtually means is: "Screw class / skill balance! If Roaming Mend heals me twice for 44k (2x 22k) and the following Unnatural Preservation crits for 35k, replenishing 80k HP within 3s, I don't give a damn about energy management which is totally irrelevant in shorter fight anyways."

 

I.e. THAT's a purely PvP oriented statement.

 

So if you then accepted that skills must be balanced towards other skills, you must eventually check whether there are existing inbalance already. So either look at Bant's numbers and see that Sorcerers have a 5~22% HPS advantage over Mercenaries or visit the parsely.io operation board, select a boss to see the live HPS scores for Sorcerers. Keep in mind though that the HPS values don't include any damage prevented by a Static Barrier. That means the true effectiveness of a Sorcerer might be even higher than what is shown.

 

All in all, you might eventually realize that these proposals wouldn't make the Sorcerer by any means worse than a Mercenary.

 

Operative

This is the part where it should be clearly obvious that my changes aren't about PvP at all. Whereas both Mercenary and Sorcerer have a good instant burst heal, the only real counterpart - Surgical Probe - is painfully awful.

 

Likewise, whereas Mercenary and Sorcerer have 'smart' heals that jump over to the next target and have an insanely large area of effect, the Operative will only be truly effective if all his teammates stay very close to each other. So to balance this, the only option I'm aware of - other than introducing another 'smart' heal as well - is to keep the cooldown as low as possible and/or to allow the Operative counterpart to be used twice in succession. Whereas the 'smart' heal would jump over to the next target, you would select the next target manually.

 

But by no means are my proposals for the Operative balanced in regard of HPS scores or PvP. Because - like I said - this would be the part where you have to consider energy management, DCDs, etc. as well.

Edited June 26, 2017 by realleaftea

[Ramalina]

To sum it up - people are mad cause Roaming Mend has the POTENTIAL to heal the same person twice, lessening the ability's AoE, but increasing its single target. You realize that if they added any sort of cast or channel to this ability they'd have to make it heal FOR MORE? The risk of it getting interrupted would force them buff its healing to make it worth the risk to cast in the first place.

 

To be fair, a lot of being an above average seer/corruption sorc is learning how to make sure that most of the time your Roaming/Wandering Mend only hits two targets. With practice, positioning, and good timing, you can have it act as a two target heal maybe 60% of the time or more. It's basically SWTOR Heal Pong. Or heal billiards? Whatever.

 

To a large extent it looks like they want us to heal more like we did back in 2.0. We'll still be more mobile than we were then, we'll still have better burst healing than we did back then, but multitarget healing looks to be taking a significant hit.

 

Who knows, maybe we, and maybe also Lightning/TK, will get something out of the Balance/Madness buffs. Can hope at any rate.

[realleaftea]

Idk where you people are getting ~15k per gcd for Dark Heal from... Maybe under the effects of both Force Bending AND Recklessness. But we've got better things to spend Force Bending on than tanking our force using Dark Heal.

No, it's based on parsely operation results, dividing the total heak by the number of uses.

 

Don't touch the ability [innervate] at all would be even better.

Then you didn't understand the meaning of balance. Innervate shouldn't be strictly better than a Dark Heal. But right now, it heals more than a Dark Heal and can even be used while moving.

 

I completely don't IDK why every one thinks Sorc Healers SHOULDN'T have access to AoE healing...

First of all, lowering the heal to a more reasonable amount doesn't mean sorcerers wouldn't have access to AoE heals. So just to make it sure: You know that Revivication is an AoE as well, right?

 

To sum it up - people are mad cause Roaming Mend has the POTENTIAL to heal the same person twice, lessening the ability's AoE, but increasing its single target. You realize that if they added any sort of cast or channel to this ability they'd have to make it heal FOR MORE? The risk of it getting interrupted would force them buff its healing to make it worth the risk to cast in the first place.

Oh boy, just to repeat myself:

 

The Progressive Scan: 24k | 16k | 12k | 6k, channeled for 2.5s. => equal to 60k in total => equal to 36k per GCD.

The old Roaming Mend: 15k | 15k | 15k | 15k => equal to 60k in total => equal to 60k per GCD.

 

=> So we have 60k vs. 36k, which is essentially a 67% advantage for Roaming Mend.

 

If BioWare would now apply the 25% nerf, it would be like this:

New Roaming Mend: 11k | 11k | 11k | 11k => equal to 44k in total => equal to 44k per GCD.

 

=> So we have 44k vs. 36k, which is still a 22% advantage for Roaming Mend.

And just to clarify this as well: The max. possible heal for a single target would be 22k vs 24k,

 

But sure, a 22% advantage totally ruins a whole class and makes you think that Sorcerers wouldn't or shouldn't have access to AoEs, right? Even before we know whether or not BioWare changes Progressive Scan as well...

Edited June 26, 2017 by realleaftea

[ivanhedgehog]

Well, my changes are by no means about PvP only. My proposals are about class balance, which can only be achieved by inter-skill balance.

 

Mercenary:

First if all, you might have noticed that BioWare increased the survivability with 5.0. Mercs got an additional 50% damage reduction, as well as a 70% Kolto Surge, which is basically an insane self-heal ... even in PvE. So you could say they partially revert these improvements now.

 

My changes didn't focus on a 70% Kolto Surge or 50% DR + damage reflect which affects PvP the most, because I'm more about inter-skill balance. So my proposals mainly about Healing Scan. Why? Because a 24k Emergency Heal crit., followed by a 32k instant Healing Scan crit. is the reason why Mercs are considered powerful aingle-target healers and that's a clear inbalance in any scenario ... even PvE... and ruins any balance between skills as well.

 

That inter-skill focus also becomes obvious if you look at the Kolto Missile proposals. The overall effectiveness stays the same, but the heals are spreaded more equally simply because the Mercenary is lIMO acking an HoT.

 

Sorcerer:

In order to keep Dark Heal valuable, it must be better than Innervate. The latter at least stays partially effect, should it get interrupted (f.e. by Revan push/pulls). Furthermore, it can be used while moving, so that has to be calculated in as well.

 

And in order to keep Dark Infusion valueable, it must be better than both Dark Heal or Innervate. So I simply don't understand why BioWare wants to nerf a skill that isn't used at all. But feel free to tell me how often you use Dark Infusion in your rotation.

 

My changes boost Dark Infusion just as much as they nerfed Innervate. This keeps all 3 skills valueable.

 

And as long as a Sorcerer isn't constantly moving and is willing to replace some of their Dark Heals with Dark Infusions, the boost will balance out nerf. And if move constantly, you would suffer the same drawbacks as any other healing class.

_________

 

So the only true change is about Roaming Mend. But once again, my approach is almost completely about class balance and inter-skill balance. Like I wrote earlier, both Roaming Mend and Progressive Scan deal approximately the same total damage.

 

Roaming Mend: 4x 15k = 60k

Progressive Scan: 24k | 18k | 12k | 6k = 60k

 

But whereas Roaming Mend is an instant cast, the Progressive Scan must be channeled for ~2.5s. It's therefore more like 60k per GCD vs. 60k per 2.5s = 36k per GCD.

 

So in order to achieve inter-skill balance and thereby class balance, lowering the healing output is the only way to go. You can still assure a certain HPS score by other means (improving other skills or changing energy efficiency). It's therefore actually the opposite of fairness to keep a broken skill and to nerf the energy efficency instead, which is exactly what ProcessHeals suggested.

 

 

 

What this acrtually means is: "Screw class / skill balance! If Roaming Mend heals me twice for 44k (2x 22k) and the following Unnatural Preservation crits for 35k, replenishing 80k HP within 3s, I don't give a damn about energy management which is totally irrelevant in shorter fight anyways."

 

I.e. THAT's a purely PvP oriented statement.

 

So if you then accepted that skills must be balanced towards other skills, you must eventually check whether there are existing inbalance already. So either look at Bant's numbers and see that Sorcerers have a 5~22% HPS advantage over Mercenaries or visit the parsely.io operation board, select a boss to see the live HPS scores for Sorcerers. Keep in mind though that the HPS values don't include any damage prevented by a Static Barrier. That means the true effectiveness of a Sorcerer might be even higher than what is shown.

 

All in all, you might eventually realize that these proposals wouldn't make the Sorcerer by any means worse than a Mercenary.

 

Operative

This is the part where it should be clearly obvious that my changes aren't about PvP at all. Whereas both Mercenary and Sorcerer have a good instant burst heal, the only real counterpart - Surgical Probe - is painfully awful.

 

Likewise, whereas Mercenary and Sorcerer have 'smart' heals that jump over to the next target and have an insanely large area of effect, the Operative will only be truly effective if all his teammates stay very close to each other. So to balance this, the only option I'm aware of - other than introducing another 'smart' heal as well - is to keep the cooldown as low as possible and/or to allow the Operative counterpart to be used twice in succession. Whereas the 'smart' heal would jump over to the next target, you would select the next target manually.

 

But by no means are my proposals for the Operative balanced in regard of HPS scores or PvP. Because - like I said - this would be the part where you have to consider energy management, DCDs, etc. as well.

This focus on movement is 100% pvp based. If it was actually about balance, ops would be on the chopping block. You see a lot of sorc heals because there is nothing else to do with them.

[realleaftea]

This focus on movement is 100% pvp based. If it was actually about balance, ops would be on the chopping block. You see a lot of sorc heals because there is nothing else to do with them.

Why would you assume such a nonsense. Did you went through my whole post, found the word 'movement' in it and then concluded that it's 100% PvP based???

 

Because it isn't at all. First of all, I mentioned the word 'movement' only to clarify why I believe that Innervate should be weaker than Dark Heal. "Instant cast" is simply less catchy and not entirely true for a channel skill.

 

And second, the ability to move AND heal at the same time is essential for PvE as well. Be it against bosses like Revan or Master/Blaster or simply to fasten up an Uprising. You know these bosses, right?

Edited June 26, 2017 by realleaftea

[Hichitsuki-hime]

No problem:

 

Tl;dr

Sorcerer:

Dark Heal

No 4.86% nerf → keep it at ~15k per GCD

 

Dark Infusion

Boost heal by ~18% → should heal ~16k per GCD (~21k per use)

Don't nerf the Resurgence bonus for Dark Infusion → keep the -0.5s activation time

 

Innervate

Nerf heal by ~20% → should heal 14k per GCD (~23k per use)

Keep the 20% faster channel duration for Innervate

 

Roaming Mend

I completely agree with BioWare's 25.22% nerf

 

To sum it up

The nerf of Roaming Mend is justified because it's way too powerful for a single GCD heal. Roaming Mend at least must be channeled for 2.5s and can be interrupted. Rather than nerfing Dark Infusion & Dark Heal, nerf Innervate to make the Sorcerer less effective while moving.

*snip*

errrr .... no i like my innervate the way it is lol. dunno about nerf on roaming mend. i know there needs to be some nerf. but maybe a bigger CD would work better? >.>

Edited June 26, 2017 by Hichitsuki-hime

[DarrelK]

Wow, I lived to see sorc heals gutted. I expect them to nerf the other healers too, however. Looking at these nerfs, they are just way too brutal to be sorc only, I'm pretty sure operative healing will be hit too. Potentially merc too, if they want to reduce healing all around.

[LDaria]

I want devs to make a nim run with a team full of nerfed classes. And I want to see that run

[Kingsbount]

I want devs to make a nim run with a team full of nerfed classes. And I want to see that run

 

Believe me - you are not the ony one who dream of it

Edited June 26, 2017 by Kingsbount

[Dhurwin]

No, it's based on parsely operation results, dividing the total damage by the number of uses.

Based off the Parsely parses of the Sorcerers who placed in the top 1% on Anni Droid in EVHM (the 1st boss) Dark Heal's average heal was 11995.099476439790575916230366492 (2291064 uses / 191 casts) not 15k... which is 9260.8875222630543996733980597177 HPS for the duration of the cast (avg heal / 1.2952429718646 which is the GCD for a sorc healer with "optimal stats" according to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622&highlight=stats)

No, than you didn't understand the meaning of balance. Innervate shouldn't be strictly better than a Dark Heal. But right now, it heals more than a Dark Heal and can even be used while moving.

No, why shouldn't the heal we rely on to maintain our force be ACTUALLY worth casting HPS-wise. Why that would make too much sense. The ability to do things on the move is useful in PvE, but has a much much MUCH bigger impact in PvP and should not apply when considering how to "balance" its HPS. I understand the definition of "balance" I just don't agree that Sorc healers are out of said "balance" currently and also see no reason to touch Innervate, or any of our skills for that matter.

First of all, lowering the heal to a more reasonable amount doesn't mean sorcerers wouldn't have access to AoE heals. So just to make it sure: You know that Revivication is an AoE as well, right?

Just because we have abilities that heal multiple targets doesn't mean they'll be worth it to cast. So just to make it clear: You do know that Revivification has an "fi" in it, and that it's basically worthless to cast outside of a few instances where you can hit EVERYONE with it, and it's getting a HUGE nerf as well, right? Right now - based off starparse ratings - we do NOT do a MASSIVE amount more healing than the other classes, so any attempt to "lower healing to a reasonable amount" would just serve to cripple the class. It's already reasonable, whether you want to admit it or not, and to go any lower would be akin to giving us band-aids and telling us to mend gushing wounds.

Oh boy, just to repeat myself:

 

The Progressive Scan: 24k | 16k | 12k | 6k, channeled for 2.5s. => equal to 60k in total => equal to 36k per GCD.

The old Roaming Mend: 15k | 15k | 15k | 15k => equal to 60k in total => equal to 60k per GCD.

 

=> So we have 60k vs. 36k, which is essentially a 67% advantage for Roaming Mend.

 

If BioWare would now apply the 25% nerf, it would be like this:

New Roaming Mend: 11k | 11k | 11k | 11k => equal to 44k in total => equal to 44k per GCD.

 

=> So we have 44k vs. 36k, which is still a 22% advantage for Roaming Mend.

And just to clarify this as well: The max. possible heal for a single target would be 22k vs 24k,

 

Based on the same parameters as above (above 1% parses, EVHM Anni Droid):

 

The average tick of Progressive Scan was 6335.7149028077753779697624190065 (5866872 healing / 926 ticks) over the course of the cast it had an average of 9.5463917525773195876288659793814 ticks (10*(926 total ticks / 970 potential ticks)) leading to a total average heal of 60483.216494845360824742268041237 (avg tick amount*avg # of ticks) which mercs spent and average of 1.9923926532993707628865979381443 seconds casting (2.087063578510140 the channel time with optimal stats from the aforementioned stats thread*(926/970)) and an average HPS of 30357.076650873064441461514066008 (total heal / average time spent channeling)

 

Where as Roaming Mend had an average tick of 15922.442329227323628219484882419 (14218741 healing / 893 ticks) ticking an average of 3.5019607843137254901960784313725 times (893 total ticks / 1020 potential ticks) leading to a total average heal of 55759.768627450980392156862745098 (avg heal * avg # of ticks) and with a GCD of 1.2952429718646 with "optimal" stats this is an average HPS of 43049.659282984246340363798321836 (total avg heal / GCD)

 

So contrary to your "67% advantage" this is only a 41.810951621213320445533724734984% "advantage" in terms of HPS. ((Roaming Mend - Progressive Scan)/ Progressive Scan)*100 %

 

And DESPITE this "advantage" on an ability that both classes only use 3-4 times a minute, the top 1% of mercs STILL best the top 1% of sorcs on this fight. https://gyazo.com/57947a4d4823b5629869be906b54ad5e they do 2.0508883527089273963588506251371% better than sorcs in fact.

 

So obviously sorcs need a 30% nerf on Roaming Mend, which, it is a 30% nerf btw. In addition to a 7.6923076923076923076923076923077% cost increase, they're also getting rid of a passive that buffs the healing by 5%. 5+25.22 = 30.22%.

 

A 4.8910487757856178908810487757856% nerf to Resurgence on top of a 25% increase to cost.

 

An 11.111111111111111111111111111111% cost increase to Dark Infusion.

 

An 8.74% nerf to Innervate ON TOP OF increasing the base channel time from 2.4 to 2.7, a 12.5% increase.

 

A 10% nerf to Revivification.

 

And a 5.3% nerf to both Static Barrier AND Sustaining Darkness.

 

Obviously we need ALL those nerfs, on top of making spells more expensive so we spend more time Consuming and lowering our HPS even further, we need ALL of that to "fix" our "broken" "over powered" "too easy" "immortal" to hear some of you tell it "OMGGAMEBREAKING" class.

 

No. We don't. Because we're none of those things. No more so than either Ops or Mercs. Just because 51% of the parses are from Sorcs, and it feels like we're EVERY where, doesn't mean that we're broken. All it means is that A. Our class is easier to pick up. B. Our class is more fun. or C. A combination of A. and B.. I wouldn't have an issue if they made it harder for a Sorc Healer to obtain the same amount of HPS, or even if they made it easier for the other two healers to obtain the same amount of HPS, but this is a DIRECT ~20% nerf that has nothing to do with player skill or play style.

But sure, a 22% advantage totally ruins a whole class and makes you think that Sorcerers wouldn't or shouldn't have access to AoEs, right? Even before we know whether or not BioWare changes Progressive Scan as well...

 

This current "advantage" - I've been putting that in quotes cause it's not an advantage, it's a comparison of two different abilities and one happens to do more than the other; It's like comparing Resurgence and Kolto Injection - this current "advantage" doesn't break the class, nor make it overly more viable for HM raiding. However, if they TANK our HPS by ~20% we're gonna be dead in the water and that's not fair to those of us who love this class and have gotten pretty stinking good with it. You're right, perhaps they will also nerf the other healers by ~20%, who knows. But if that's the case I don't see PvP being a pretty sight for a long time to come. Well maybe if they nerfing all the DPS classes it'll all even out; only way to know for sure is to wait until the dust settles, but I'd much rather NOT have every class in the game be crap. I'd rather they all be good.

 

P.S. Not that the devs will even read this, but if you do - it might go a long way to clearing up confusion about why you guys are gutting some classes, and slightly buffing others, if you released what your "target DPS" and "target HPS" values are, and how you go about calculating each individual class's DPS and HPS values. It's all well and good to know WHY you do what you do, as well as HOW you do it. But just saying "uhhh ya we got this target DPS and HPS number aaaaaaand certain classes are above it while others are below it. these changes will bring affected classes to the target." without saying what that particular target is or how you even simulate the amount of healing or damage a class does is like giving us a reason why we're in the dark by telling us it's cause the lights are off, and then you refuse to turn the lights on.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Dhurwin