Discussion Topic: Master Mode Operation Gear Drops

[Torvai]

We double the amount of drops awarded in both 8 and 16-player difficulties. This means there is a random aspect of what is dropping, but there will be more chances of receiving Tier 4 gear based on the number of players participating in the Operation.

The problem isn't the amount of drops. It's WHAT drops.

1) Blue 244 isn't better as gold 242, which you can reliably get in veteran mode. So there's no justifaction for it to drop in master mode.

2) It's completely random. And when you consistently get 244 items for classes you don't even have in your group and noone in the group plays anyway, it's frustrating.

 

We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

I have said this from the very announcement of GC: With the goals you had for this what you should have done is adapting the 4.0 PvP gearing to the whole game. It's too late now for that, but maybe consider it for the next expansion. So yeah, having unassembled components drop in operations(or even better, in every content, but adjust accordingly) is a great idea imo.

 

tldr: Remove 244, make it so that the 246 items are for classes that are in the operation. AND introduce components to the rest of the game. Once you have them balanced out, you can get rid of the crates

[auroroavalor]

I'd really prefer option 3, where all the Master Mode bosses drop 248 tokens. We won't be able to get BiS from Machine Gos for another 6 months.

 

I'm not entirely sure why there's any 248 tokens dropping in MM/NiM as they're scaled for something like 236-240 gear and have no place dropping gear two tiers higher than that.

 

Would it be more convenient to have NiM dropping 248's on every boss? Absolutely, but surely keeping the gear incentive on the newer bosses is important, besides, if we get a new gear tier with NiM GftM will it create an expectation then for the old operations to be dropping 254's? In my mind, there's no situation where having older or easier content being a better source of gear makes sense.

[omaan]

Hey folks,

 

 

[*]We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

 

So what do you think? Do you like or dislike option 1 or 2 above? Is there something you are concerned about with either idea? What idea was not mentioned that you think could solve this? Let us know!

 

-eric

 

No you CANT do such adjustments, since you WILL kill pvp in this game. Do you actually read pvp threads mr Musco? Or you just reading through fingers only specific threads. You have already BUFFED pve gearing progression to highest value in the game so that many pvp players actually started to run operations instead of warzones in order to obtain gear which of course had negative impact on overall quantity of players playing pvp, and currently running ops is much better and faster way of obtaining gear. What you propose now? Give pve players an opportunity to receive unessembled components? So to kill pvp at all? You already killed world pvp, and now you going to kill warzones queues. I think swtor doesn't deserve to have pvp community, since you are just buffing pve and thinking only about it.

I think those who are still playing this game for pvp will not stay long. Maybe you start balancing pvp and pve progressions? Since you removed pvp and pve gear you have no choice but to always seek balance between these two absolutely different spheres of the game.

Edited June 14, 2017 by omaan

[Jerba]

Adding Unassembled Components to bosses in all difficulty modes (not just Master Mode) is the best solution, and it has been mentioned in my guild frequently as their biggest wish for gearing going forward. Consider an raid group like the one I am in; we are able to clear all VM bosses with ease (ignoring maybe Master&Blaster or Revan), and we are able to kill many MM bosses but not the final bosses.

 

We were fully 242 equipped when 5.2 launched, so we have no more need for 242 gear. This has a horrible impact on the server community - there is zero reason to help out in a more casual group because you don't need any of the VM loot. But also, we don't care about 244/246 gear because as semi-progress players, we want to have the highest gear; working toward 244/246 gear is wasted time when you can just craft equivalent gear (we have plenty of mats stored up), or easily get 248 gear via PvP. (It doesn't matter to us if final MM bosses drop 248 gear because we can't kill those)

 

Only getting 244/246 gear and not having top-tier gear wouldn't be a problem if bosses were still staying at their on-release level. Previously, when a boss was too hard for a raid group, they only had to wait a few months and with more gear and a higher level, they were able to beat the boss.

Now that everything is on-level and remains on-level, players are stuck and cannot progress further. The players who are able to kill MM bosses don't need the 248 gear that drops there; the players that are stuck need that gear.

 

In my opinion, it should be possible to get the highest gear (248) both from the hardest VM bosses, and entry-level MM bosses (not Nefra obviously).

The reason being that PvP and PvE gear are now shared (which in my opinion was one of the worst decisions ever made by this game). If you PvP, you can lose the match, you can AFK, and you'll still get the rewards. This imbalances the whole system because there is no similar progression for operation players - unless you plan on rewarding loot for wiping on a boss. Previously, it was possible to fully gear a character during just their raid nights, and the rest of the week, the could do something else and weren't forced to work on their gearing. Now, players have to PvP/GSF all the time to keep up.

 

Having Components drop from all operation bosses, with the count depending on difficulty, is a great solution. But these components should drop in all difficulty modes, not just Master Mode, so that players are encouraged to run Veteran Mode. Obviously, the balance must be absolute correct. In other words. Nefra MM should drop the same amount of tokens as Soa VM. Otherwise, we'll have the same situation as currently, where players kill Nefra with all their alts to farm 246 schematics, and there's no reason to do any other MM bosses because they drop the same loot but are harder.

Additionally, you can have full 248 tokens drop from the final bosses. I realize that with such a change, we'll be back at square one (Ultimate Commendations/Warzone Commendations), but that system has worked for years; there's no reason not to go back there.

 

I beg you to please make the change. The gearing for semi-progress raid groups has been an issue since 5.0 and sadly, it remains a problem that has caused a lot of players, myself included, to lose interest. I hate PvP/GSF with a passion, and I begrudingly reached Valor 100 while getting 248 gear so I don't hinder my raid group. But it got me very close to quitting the game, and to the point where I no longer cared about playing PvP, I just wanted the matches to end as fast as possible to get the components.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Jerba

[GENXPS]

Nightmare Operations should drop BIS gear all boss.

[Hellhog]

Neither Option 1 or 2 are the ultimate solution to the problem. The problem is that some Tier 4 Legendary gear does not exist in PvE. Players are required to gather Tier 3 Legendary gear from Veteran Mode Operations or Command Crates, then obtain a sufficient amount of Unassembled Components from PvP in order to upgrade to Tier 4 Legendary. Option 1 doesn't address this issue at all, while Option 2 only addresses the PvP aspect but still requires players clearing Master Mode Bosses to go into Veteran Mode just to get the shell for upgrading (or get lucky through a Command Crate).

 

I understand you guys want emphasis to be on Gods from the Machine for gear but that simply can't be done when the full operation won't be available for half a year (or more). Master Mode bosses need to have set drops for Tier 4 Legendary gear. Not just the last bosses. I understand some bosses are easier than others, but then again we currently have Veteran Mode EV and KP dropping the same gear as the other Veteran Modes so I think that logic doesn't matter any more with that precedent set. The only way Option 2 can be any bit acceptable is if we can not only upgrade 242 pieces to 248 but also do the same with 244/246 that we get from Master Mode as well. Otherwise we're having to do easier content just to make use of the rewards from harder content. A backwards strategy.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Hellhog

[shyroman]

I much prefer the components idea. It would have to be quite a lot of components though to actually be able to get gear from it though at a reasonable rate. So because on average, each person would get 1 piece of gear for every 8 bosses they kill, I suggest it they give 34 components for each boss killed (or possibly lower on earlier bosses and more on later bosses to reward progressing more). Most of the main pieces (except mh/oh) cost 270 components to upgrade from tier 3 to tier 4, and 270/8 equals about 34 (rounding). It would be quicker to get some of the less important pieces like belt/implants, but a bit more for mh/oh which are the most important. This option would also allow each member to focus on whatever piece of gear they need and remove the need to hunt specific bosses for a specific piece. Edited June 14, 2017 by shyroman

[harrybracey]

To be fair, what Auro said is true. The current master mode operations weren't scaled for 246-248 gear, they were scaled for when 242 was the highest gear in the game.

 

As for pve being "the best way to gear" currently, that is frankly BS. If I want 248 gear, the only way I ever expect to do it is by farming components through pvp. My luck is simply not good enough, as I'm sure is the case for many others. Whilst I believe the components would be a nice idea, it does admittedly take away from the pvp aspect. The number of components rewarded would be the tricky part. Too many and it takes away from the pvp community, too few and we would almost be better off with 246 drops.

 

I would suggest that regardless of the option picked, simply remove the 244 blue drops. Its worse than 242 gear (at least for dps). Double drops of purple gear only might not be such a bad thing. Alternatively, make 246 unassembled components? Make it so that these aren't upgradable, however they are (obviously) token standard, with set bonus etc. It removes the rng aspect that can be incredibly frustrating when classes not present in the group get gear drops. This takes nothing from pvp, but provides more incentive for high end pve. That way also BiS is still coming from Gods from the Machine, but we're not getting absolutely shafted for doing MM over Veteran like we currently are.

 

As a side note, if MM isn't rewarding its harder to bring people into the hardest tier of raiding. Surely this is the opposite of what firstly the devs want to achieve, and secondly what the community of players wants. Not saying the content should be any easier, just that I would want more people to give it a go.

Edited June 14, 2017 by harrybracey

[cultofcargo]

Hi, thanks for asking this

 

We want unassembled components.

The random gear is rarely useful

 

Thanks

[shyroman]

No you CANT do such adjustments, since you WILL kill pvp in this game. Do you actually read pvp threads mr Musco? Or you just reading through fingers only specific threads. You have already BUFFED pve gearing progression to highest value in the game so that many pvp players actually started to run operations instead of warzones in order to obtain gear which of course had negative impact on overall quantity of players playing pvp, and currently running ops is much better and faster way of obtaining gear. What you propose now? Give pve players an opportunity to receive unessembled components? So to kill pvp at all? You already killed world pvp, and now you going to kill warzones queues. I think swtor doesn't deserve to have pvp community, since you are just buffing pve and thinking only about it.

I think those who are still playing this game for pvp will not stay long. Maybe you start balancing pvp and pve progressions? Since you removed pvp and pve gear you have no choice but to always seek balance between these two absolutely different spheres of the game.

 

Because all those dps that can't even break 2.5k or healers that can't break 5k are just gonna go hop into nim and start clearing bosses. Oh wait, that isn't going to happen, and those groups I just stated are most of the pvp population at this point.

[DeltaEkotte]

I dislike both options. Both of them offer only minimal incentive to actually perform Master Mode/Nightmare mode operations. The best choice would be to return to the way it was before. Each boss drops an assembled set piece. And for the record; in my opinion, Gods from the Machine is NOT an operation. It is a world boss. An operation takes a long period of time to complete, with multiple bosses. I understand the logic of it taking so long to make, they are their own little worlds with their own feel, atmosphere, lore; but guess what?

THAT'S WHAT WE LIKE ABOUT THEM!

After completing the Gods from the Machine "operation" I feel zero desire to repeat simply because it doesn't have the depth or intrigue that the real operations from the past years do. I know a single sub's opinion doesn't amount to much given recent subscriber numbers, but the lack of full sized operation coming out is causing me to look harder and harder at just going free to play and just hanging out with friends.

[Jushyfruit]

I've been suggesting for other activities to drop unassembled components so I'm in favor of option 2. The problem with option 1 is that the full loot table for 248 gear is still unobtainable through running all the NiM bosses. I think the ideal change though would be to add a 248 piece that currently doesn't drop to the loot table on final bosses while taking one of the duplicate pieces out. For example, Brontes NiM currently drops 2 248 gloves so taking away one of the glove drops and adding in a mainhand (one of the currently unobtainable 248 pieces) would be ideal. By doing this for every last boss, you could ensure that the original ops drop 10 unique gear slots while the first 2 Gods From the Machine drop the other 2 slots. This makes it so that by running through all the hardest operations content currently in the game, you will be able to fill out every gear slot in 248.

 

This still doesn't address the problem of poor gear drops with previous bosses though so I would still recommend that unassembled components do drop from non last bosses as it is a mitigation to RNG when one raid member may not have a useful piece drop for an extremely long time.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Jushyfruit

[Thoniei]

NiM prog raider here. Thanks for acknowledging there is an issue here and asking for feedback. The current NiM gear rewards are not ok and neither of the proposed methods are a solution. If 248 gear came only came from NiM then it would be ok but that is not the case. 248 gear is EASY to get with pvp. So 248 gear is not something rare or exclusive. Now lets compare HM raiding rewards with NiM rewards. HM gives me 242 tokens which I need to turn in to 248 gear (via pvp. If I missed getting a certain piece of 242 while in tier 3 of CXP this is the only way to get the token I need. The gear from HM is really useful for both my main and alts.

 

Now in NiM I get purple or (blue!) tier 4 gear. This gear can not be upgraded and probably isn't even for my main class/spec. Doubling this gear is worthless. This gear is significantly worse than the gear from HM. The blues suck, no NiM raider is going to bother with a blue even for an alt. Please don't ever hand me a blue as a reward from a NiM op. The purples aren't tokens and can't be upgraded. They are only a slight upgrade from 242s so I would rather have a 242 token since I can chose how to spend it.

 

248 gear is easy to get in PvP there is no reason to slow it down in NiM PvE so I don't see why we can't have 1 248 token from every boss. If we can't have that for some reason then lets talk about other solutions. If you are going to double the current gear please take the blues away and give us only purples. We also need a way to upgrade 246 to 248. I should not need tokens from HM to get my NiM gear. Getting unassembled components from NiM would be nice but we need 242 tokens to go with them. In order to make NiM rewards better than HM rewards how about 2x the 242 drops or 1x 242 drops + unassembled components.

 

No matter which path you take NiM rewards need to be better than HM rewards. Neither of these two suggestions are.

[Toraak]

NiM bosses should drop T4 gold piece period, but if your going to think about putting UC's in NiM Operation bosses, they need to go into SM, and HM Ops as well. It's been said that 1% of swtors population does NiM Ops so you would be telling every non NiM skilled PvE player your unimportant. If ANY Operation boss gets UC's, then they all do.

 

Giving UC's to PvP/GSF only is understandable, however if you give them to a Operation activity singling out the 1% of the population that can do it isn't the right way to go.

[Elssha]

At this point it might be wise to just give NiM 242 gear (like HM) except the item is random and with a chance of also dropping 248... with the last boss having a guaranteed 248 drop - Like you had bosses like HM Eyeless drop when 5.0 launch.

[DrKlep]

As someone who has finished the PVP grind to get BiS gear and am thus no longer personally invested in how it is done, I like option 2 a lot. It lets more people get into that side of the gear grind - which has so far only been available to PVPers - and gives them better selection in their upgrades rather than hoping what they need randomly drops.

 

It also incentivizes people to participate in the group finder operation every day, regardless of what gear they have. Right now you might only try to run an op once or twice a week to try and get a specific piece off a boss you expect a random group to be able to reach. If each boss drops unassembled components, you're incentivized to participate in every operation you can.

[THAT_EPIC_GUY]

If only given those two options, as a master mode raider who clears multiple full lockouts every week, I would say that unassembled components are better.

 

244/246 drops aren't appealing as they offer no pathway to best in slot gear. 242 token drops are nice as they can be PVP'd directly up into 248s, likewise components offer a means towards 248s. 244/246 simply don't fit into this pathway.

 

If you are adding components to master mode drops then please consider some sort of legacy support for unassembled components.

[MattGryffindor]

I really think that a set loot table is the best design all difficulties.

 

If you are making me choose between option 1 and 2 that you described. I will say option 2 is better. I also think we should be able to get unassembled components from Story Mode, Veteran Mode and Master Mode operations. I feel forced to grind PVP to get upgrades which can be a brutal grind.

[_REPTILE_]

It's really simple, RNG and Blue gear have no place being in OPS, period.

SM OPS - 236 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

VM OPS - 242 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

MM OPS - 246 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

GFTM SM - 242 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

GFTM VM - 248 unassembled tokens, boss specific drops

 

- Allow 246's to be upgraded to 248's with Unassembled Components (possibly consider all the tiers, 234 > 236 for eg)

- Add Unassembled Components to all the operations weekly missions and group finder dailies for ops.

Edited June 15, 2017 by _REPTILE_

[Essariel]

Unassembled components are by far the best option, but the drop rate should be significant because you can't farm nim bosses, your toon gets locked, unlike in pvp. Numbers should be something like 25 components for most nim bosses, 50 for apex bosses. That way, you could get a piece of unassembled gear from doing 2 complete nim operations.

[Izisvi]

Would be fine with option 1 *IF and only if* 244 drops were removed from the pool. Frankly 244's dropping from a master mode kill is insulting to the community.

 

If you are unwilling to remove 244's from the loot pool, option 2 for at least consistent gear from consistent clears is my preference.

[Leadplayer]

I go with option 3. You seem to be speaking to what is left of the hard core raiding community. One of the things we were more than happy with was how we geared. GC was added for people that dont raid/pvp to get high grade gear. Thats fine leave GC there for those people, and give us back specific token drops on specific bosses. We could chose Op's as a raid team KNOWING what gear pieces we would be going after, it gave us a road to chose on our quest to gear. It wont matter if you have 4 random pieces dropping per boss, its still RNG and we have had our fill of RNG in our raid runs. So leave GC there for weekend warriors and bring back the old gearing ways for us progression raiders.

 

SM-236 tokens , HM - 242 tokens, NIM-246 tokens. Why even offer anything less than those gear ratings in raiding. Run Nim content for a 244 piece makes no sense. It feels like a slap in the face to raiders getting a blue piece of gear for playing top tier content.

 

Thankyou

 

Again PLEASE take into the account of we are tired of RNG, just read you own forums. Don't add more, let us chose what gear we get, it worked great in the past!!!

Edited June 15, 2017 by Leadplayer

[mwissie]

Master Mode Operations:

• Each non-final boss in an Operation will drop random Tier 4 Prototype and/or Artifact quality item

 

in my opinion this is the biggest issue

getting blue loot is such a slap in the face; because you're better off with running vet ops (blue 244 is objectively worse than 242)

honestly, if it dropped 2 random 246 pieces, everything would be fine in my opinion

 

the other option, of putting components in the drop sounds good as well, IF! the amount dropped is large, 1 average upgrade per ops; if it's any lower than 50 components per boss, there should at least be a piece of 246 loot as well

 

and well.. 4.0 spoiled us too much; we shouldn't expect that again.. EV HM farm to get BiS gear

[paucisverbis]

1. If I have to choose between those two options, I prefer Option 2 (unassembled components).

 

2. I personally do not mind the RNG factor but please do so in a reasonable, consistent manner. For Nightmare Mode/Master Mode (NIM/MM) operations, at least purple 246 gears (RNG or non-RNG) should be dropped from the non-last bosses to keep the reward consistent with the Hard Mode/Veteran Mode's (HM/VM) drop of 242 gears. If it is developers' intention to restrict drop of 248 gears to the last Master Mode bosses and through unassembled components, then so be it. That is fine. However, there is no good explanation for dropping random blue 244 gears that are no better than unassembled 242 tokens from bosses that are supposed to be harder than the HM/VM counterparts.

 

3. Additionally if possible, granted this might be a bit off-topic yet related nonetheless, please re-tune all NIM/MM operations and their difficulty to properly reflect the gear level of 246/248. The content is currently tuned to pre-5.2, 240/242 gears.

Edited June 15, 2017 by paucisverbis

[deklas]

Please option 2! I hate this endless PvP grinding..