Class changes for 5.3

[Sheike]

He was joking, and while I understand you realized.. there was a reason for it.

That small heal only complicates a bunch of things.

It's not really something we need and I'd rather not see it's return to avoid complications.

 

Besides, only Darkness has access to Depredating Volts. And Darkness doesn't need anything.

 

We got our Force Lightning taken away somewhere between 4.0 and 5.0.

Which imo is a damn shame. That stuff was useful in rare occassions and I liked having the option of blowing a Recklessness to do this. It really required you to think about either or not you actually wanted to do that.

Creative thinking solutions = a good thing. Don't take that away for the simple sake of class ideology.

 

No dps class should be tougher than a tank class, period. Why exactly does deprevating volts count for so much when it's nothing to write home about and what exactly would the minor heal complicate? Also, I disagree with Darkness/Kinetic Combat getting stuck with nothing new, so I want to ask if we can have a version of spinning strike with an attached debuff or something awesome like that. Furthermore, imo the tank classes feel squishy and lackluster on live atm

Edited June 6, 2017 by Sheike

[Evolixe]

You what mate? Assassins are literally the strongest tanks right now for both PvP and PvE.

The heal would just make the spec stupidly good for 1v1.

 

On a spec that really doesn't need anything, lets not make it OP at something for no reason.

[_Shaddai_]

Snip...

I mean do you remember the double stance bug? Do you really think that players affected by that bug were doing massive amounts of damage? Marauders were still ahead then.

 

So for clarity sake, this statement is incorrect. During the double stance bug, Assassins were anywhere from 750 to 1k above the next highest classes in similar gear. (Parsing over 10k in 5.0)

[Evolixe]

So for clarity sake, this statement is incorrect. During the double stance bug, Assassins were anywhere from 750 to 1k above the next highest classes in similar gear. (Parsing over 10k in 5.0)

 

The post you are referring to was talking PvP.

 

And other classes were also capable of parsing 10k in 242's. Namely Operatives and Snipers.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Evolixe

[_Shaddai_]

The post you are referring to was talking PvP.

 

And other classes were also capable of parsing 10k in 242's. Namely Operatives and Snipers.

 

So I'm going to correct this again since you are vastly misinformed. Before 5.1 came out and the stance bug was remedied, the ONLY class that had a parse uploaded over 10k at 2.5m was Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows. (Go look and you will see). The 2nd highest was IO Mercenary at 9.9k. The difference in top parse between Assassin and the IO merc was 700 dps. (Top Assassin was at 10.6k at 2.5m and the merc was at 9.9k) The next class besides those 2 was a Lethality Operative at 9.6k.

 

Sins were simply overpowered due to the double procing from voltaic slash. That's just the way it was.

 

For reference, http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/all/all/2500000/all/5.0/0/

 

Edit - Just saying, they were by far the highest parsers in 5.0 and saying a marauder was capable of doing more is just simply not true.

Edited June 6, 2017 by _Shaddai_

[Evolixe]

And I will repeat the part where I said the post was aimed towards PvP, so was the statement about Marauders.

[_Shaddai_]

And I will repeat the part where I said the post was aimed towards PvP, so was the statement about Marauders.

 

So maybe I shouldn't have snipped literally the sentence prior to what I copied. You were literally talking about PVE, so stop making that claim. Quote below, verbatim.

 

"You probably got this idea from my PvE section, but just because we might do more damage in PvE doesn't mean that would directly transfer to PvP as well. I mean do you remember the double stance bug? Do you really think that players affected by that bug were doing massive amounts of damage? Marauders were still ahead then. And I think we should strave to achieve the numbers we had under that bug.. except maybe another way that is less.. buggy."

[Evolixe]

Are you lacking in reading comprehension? This is getting really tiresome.

 

I literally reference PvP right before my sentence about the stance bug.

Are you really trying to tell me what I'm saying in my posts? Stop making a fool of yourself.

[_Shaddai_]

Are you lacking in reading comprehension? This is getting really tiresome.

 

I literally reference PvP right before my sentence about the stance bug.

Are you really trying to tell me what I'm saying in my posts? Stop making a fool of yourself.

 

The entire sentence was referring to his reference of mistaking the PVP comments with the PVE. Read it again. You were literally talking about increasing damage in PVE claiming he mixed up his information with PVP. Then you immediately jump into the stance bug (STILL ON TOPIC) of the PVE mixup. I don't know how much more blatant it needs to be.

 

Also I'm sure a few assassins still have screenshots of their damage in WZs if you ask them nicely to post. 4-5m in voidstar in 5.0 as deception is pretty good. 5m is still considered pretty good and is usually achieved with aoe specs, not single target burst.

 

Assassins, do not need to go back to how much more damage they were doing in 5.0, there was a rather large gap there.

[Evolixe]

So Keith and Eric have confirmed no Deception changes to be coming anytime soon.

However, they will be looking into Hatred. Lets concentrate on that for now.

 

I still I love to hear your suggestions, and if I can find some time after my raid today I'll format the OP to it.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Evolixe

[Evolixe]

So let me be the first to say I don't think Hatred needs Survivability buffs. I just think it needs raw output power.

It should do much more damage than it is, and that would create a natural deterrent big enough to bridge the current Survivability state (of Hatred) for PvP.

 

It would also create a sensible choice between Deception and Hatred for PvE beyond just "take this for single, take this for AoE". Hatred does more damage, but also takes more.

Deception does very fair damage and high burst, but has a lot lower damage intake.

Hatred should do véry High damage with mediocre burst at best, but be pretty much the easiest kill in the game*

 

I've also been tinkering with the idea of getting rid of Creeping Terror for Assassins.

Instead, baking a similar dot into Discharge so you get both dots at once.

The reason I would like to see a similar dot, and not exactly the same, is because I don't think we should have an auto-apply root in our base rotation. And I honestly don't think we need the root anymore at all.

It doesn't work most of the time anyway, given all the immunities out there.

 

This would make the spec more accessable to the general public.

An easy to kill, hard to shutdown Melee DoTspec that does lots of damage.

 

Not 3.0.. lots of damage though.. that was dumb.

But we already don't have that level of DoTspread anymore anyway given the switch from DF spread to Lacerate.

 

 

*Basically Hatred should be where Lethality is now.. just a bit higher. Since it has even less passive armor.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Evolixe

[XakTsaroth]

Hatred is a melee spec with dots. It should be comparable in theory with Watchman. It definitely should not be easy to kill. No melee spec should be. That would be pointless. Time has to be spent in close proximity to whomever you're fighting and it takes time and effort to get and remain there, esp. when dealing with ranged opponent. The heals received when dots crit do little to nothing to add to survival.

 

The damage done needs adjusting to allow it to pressure healers as well as have some chance in solo fights. The survivability needs adjusting period. Melee classes should not be glass cannons (as in ranged). The devs can rework the class however they choose to but hopefully they remember that melee closes the distance (pursues) and should be able to perform admirably no matter what spec.

[nyrkverse]

My wishlist for Hatred is:

 

- Deathfield back to its old range and radius or spreading DoTs once more (I'd like all those 3 changes reverted myself but that's how the trouble started in PvP, hence either range+radius or spread).

- Some form of defensive buff. I'm generally ok with the idea of a glass cannon but Hatred's glass is very thin and already cracked. It shouldn't be as sturdy as Deception though.

- Damage buff: goes without saying and it should be sustained damage that gets buffed. Not sure how they should proceed to do this but it should be the goal (and I imagine that it is).

 

Sidenote: I'm glad they're not looking at Deception. It's in one of the better places it's ever been in PvE as far as I can remember if a bit more boring to play due to the changes to force management. Should it ideally be a little higher in the damage scale? I personally think so but that way the nerf hammer lies and that usually destroys everything.

 

Frontal maul (maybe tied to Duplicity?) is a very good idea though, especially given its new place in how the spec works, as you said. That and phasewalk back and I'd be the happiest Assassin in the galaxy

Edited June 9, 2017 by nyrkverse

[Hombad]

I think it's always important to remember that, when thinking about potential changes to a class, we have to separate wish lists from changes that are actually healthy for the game, and for balance.

 

You need to weigh up a lot of different factors when thinking about changes for classes.

 

It's also important to understand the competing logics behind designing/optimizing PvE performance for classes. The argument has been brought up repeatedly about how Annihilation Marauders should be compared to Hatred etc. etc., how Assassins are lacking utility. It has to be understood that, from a design standpoint, one of the utilities of Assassin is not merely that it can taunt (and guard) as a DPS, but it can actually be played in two fundamentally different roles: Tank and DPS. If Annihilation Marauders and DPS Assassins offered exactly the same numbers and group utility (equivalently, e.g. Maras do less damage but have predation to compensate and both are equally desired by raid leaders), there would never be a reason to roll a Marauder, simply because as the PvE/PvP meta changes, to avoid rerolling, you can just become a tank. I strongly believe that the reason why Marauders and Snipers have so much unique group utility is NOT because they are unbalanced, but because that is the reason to play them in the first place. They have not always been 'top dps,' and aren't currently (I think Snipers were overbuffed in 5.0 however).

 

Arguing that Assassins should have an overt utility level comparable to Marauders and deal similar damage is an idea which is fundamentally flawed, I think. Maybe it comes from a desire to see our class shine the most (something no one is free of), but I don't think it represents smart design.

 

I don't think Deception is in any need of changes at this point, if I'm being honest. The only change I think which would bring Deception to a healthier state would be buffing Overcharge Saber for a stronger offensive cooldown which isn't rotational, and even then, it would be minor (perhaps a net 100-200 DPS increase). Deception is more than capable of clearing 26/26 NiM in 5.2, let alone in 5.0 before overgearing was an even bigger issue than it is now. Deception is on par with all other top melee classes save Lethality, and overperforms in Terror NiM and Styrak NiM.

 

I think Deception is fine for PvP as well.

 

In fact, to address the criticism of Deception's RNG, I love that Deception is a difficult spec with a low skill floor but an extremely high skill ceiling. You will never hear me say otherwise. I LOVE that Deception requires positional awareness, internal proc cd tracking, and range management. But I also love that it is punished FAR LESS than other melee classes such as Marauders (save Fury) and Concealment Operatives when target range is in flux.

 

Based on these reasons, I think Maul changes are fundamentally unhealthy for the state of gameplay, especially in PvP. I also think any changes to proc rates for Surging Charge are unwise, and would require a major rebalancing of the values and coefficients of its damaging abilities on the whole.

 

Moreover, it is important to value specialisation heterogeneity. I LIKE when specs and classes feel different, and have different strengths and weaknesses. We should, as a game community, be careful to call for homogenisation of classes (which is implicit in a lot of discussions about Hatred's inferiority to Deception/Assassin's inferiority to other classes).

 

That said, while I strongly oppose designing/changing Hatred in such a way that it becomes a dual saber mimic of Annihilation, I do believe changes are necessary for that spec.

 

Based on some of my comments in other threads, I think that Hatred needs a buff to survivability that caters to its identity as the vampiric melee class.

 

I think it SHOULD remain squishy. BUT, I believe that its self-healing needs a SIGNIFICANT overhaul. Including potentially a shield equal to overhealing done by passives/leeching strike, potentially capped at 20% max hp or something similar. The fact Hatred is outhealed by 1 utility point for Carnage marauders is very frustrating for me.

 

Those are just some of my initial thoughts as a Sin main.

 

TL;DR Don't homogeneise classes or short-sightedly peddle power fantasies of mega-buffs. Deception is in a fantastic place. Hatred needs reworking, but shouldn't outdamage Deception, Annihilation, or Lethality. Can elaborate on this if asked.

[Evolixe]

It's also important to understand the competing logics behind designing/optimizing PvE performance for classes. The argument has been brought up repeatedly about how Annihilation Marauders should be compared to Hatred etc. etc., how Assassins are lacking utility. It has to be understood that, from a design standpoint, one of the utilities of Assassin is not merely that it can taunt (and guard) as a DPS, but it can actually be played in two fundamentally different roles: Tank and DPS. If Annihilation Marauders and DPS Assassins offered exactly the same numbers and group utility (equivalently, e.g. Maras do less damage but have predation to compensate and both are equally desired by raid leaders), there would never be a reason to roll a Marauder, simply because as the PvE/PvP meta changes, to avoid rerolling, you can just become a tank. I strongly believe that the reason why Marauders and Snipers have so much unique group utility is NOT because they are unbalanced, but because that is the reason to play them in the first place. They have not always been 'top dps,' and aren't currently (I think Snipers were overbuffed in 5.0 however).

 

Have you ever considered the fact people just play their classes because they like them and not necessarily because they are good or bad at anything? Balance should be for the sake of everyone being equally considered for a raid spot. Or being a fair pick for an Arena or Warzone game without having to do serious concessions in effectiveness.

 

For that very fact, everyone should be on a somewhat equal footing no matter if any class also has the capacity to change to another role. People will keep playing what they like. You are not suddenly going to see Marauders extinct because Assassins do more damage. Especially if that same Assassin has to hand-in on other fronts like Survivability.

 

 

I think Deception is fine for PvP as well.

 

In fact, to address the criticism of Deception's RNG, I love that Deception is a difficult spec with a low skill floor but an extremely high skill ceiling. You will never hear me say otherwise. I LOVE that Deception requires positional awareness, internal proc cd tracking, and range management. But I also love that it is punished FAR LESS than other melee classes such as Marauders (save Fury) and Concealment Operatives when target range is in flux.

 

Based on these reasons, I think Maul changes are fundamentally unhealthy for the state of gameplay, especially in PvP. I also think any changes to proc rates for Surging Charge are unwise, and would require a major rebalancing of the values and coefficients of its damaging abilities on the whole.

 

Really? You think standing behind a target requires a lot of effort, planning and/or thought? Honestly.. the only time this will change anything is when the Assassin gets rooted. A halfway decent player can deny a Maul during those right now. But that is such a small deal you aren't even going to notice that not being a thing anymore.

 

So in PvP it barely manages to move a grain of sand, however in PvE Maul is still your Force Regen, your Damage Reduction, your Primary choice for your Autocrit. Without it.. you run out of force within 20 seconds. You will do about 20-30% less damage and be stuck there untill you can Maul something again.

 

It is literally shutting down the spec when you can't Maul for a longer period of time.

And that is why the positional requirement should dissapear.

 

 

Deception is in a fantastic place. Hatred needs reworking, but shouldn't outdamage Deception.

 

You what... no. Just no. Stop. Your opinion just became entirely invalid.

[Hombad]

What evidence do you have that Deception is NOT in a good place?

[Evolixe]

What evidence do you have that Deception is NOT in a good place?

 

What? Did you read the post, or the OP? Deception is quite alright atm.

I think it could do with a little more damage but nothing glaring.

Perhaps not even, if we finally manage to get Hatred in a position where it does good damage.

 

You just about avoided my every argument in the last post and brought up something I didn't address at all.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Evolixe

[Hombad]

Have you ever considered the fact people just play their classes because they like them and not necessarily because they are good or bad at anything? Balance should be for the sake of everyone being equally considered for a raid spot. Or being a fair pick for an Arena or Warzone game without having to do serious concessions in effectiveness.

 

For that very fact, everyone should be on a somewhat equal footing no matter if any class also has the capacity to change to another role. People will keep playing what they like. You are not suddenly going to see Marauders extinct because Assassins do more damage. Especially if that same Assassin has to hand-in on other fronts like Survivability.

 

 

 

Really? You think standing behind a target requires a lot of effort, planning and/or thought? Honestly.. the only time this will change anything is when the Assassin gets rooted. A halfway decent player can deny a Maul during those right now. But that is such a small deal you aren't even going to notice that not being a thing anymore.

 

So in PvP it barely manages to move a grain of sand, however in PvE Maul is still your Force Regen, your Damage Reduction, your Primary choice for your Autocrit. Without it.. you run out of force within 20 seconds. You will do about 20-30% less damage and be stuck there untill you can Maul something again.

 

It is literally shutting down the spec when you can't Maul for a longer period of time.

And that is why the positional requirement should dissapear.

 

 

I'm confused by your points...

 

Do you mean to say that Maul's positional requirement is a hinderance in PvP or PvE? Because I have had next to 0 issues with the positional requirement in NiM in 4.0 and 5.0, all the way up to apex bosses. My prog group ran double deception sin as their melee up until we cleared Council.

 

If you do have issues yourself, that's a player skill issue. It does not mean that the spec is inherently flawed/outdated.

 

The only significant time it has issues is when off-tanking, and even then you can cheese it by jumping through target/going in and out with quick apm. Practice in an uprising if you like. Not to mention that losing a maul is nowhere NEAR a 20-30% damage loss, it is far more punishing for Concealment (at least in 4.0).

 

Also, I think it's pretty facetious to say that people will keep playing what they like no matter what. This is true to some extent, but what is 'meta'/optimal will always change, and provoke changes in the player base and their class choices to some degree.

 

Look at the prevalence of PT in 4.0 PvE and its huge absence in 5.0 as an example.

 

Also, no need to be so adversarial. All sin mains/friends here.

[Evolixe]

Player skill issue? You must be much better than I am at Deception. Sure mate.

 

It's totally my fault that Tyrans at council won't turn his face away after I had to take his crystal.

Or that someone (often myself) overaggros right when I intend to Maul. Costing me a GCD of doing nothing.

Or that Brontes fingerphase keep beaming at my face.

Or that adds which need to be BURNED on Calph face me when I need the damage most.

Or that Titan6 when entering burn only has a set backstabbable position but you can't read it from his form/stance.

And you can't go searching for it because you'll kill others with stacking up.

Or that I have to Tank a Dismantler at Draxus

 

Need I go on? Because I'm sure I can find more.

 

The only significant time it has issues is when off-tanking, and even then you can cheese it by jumping through target/going in and out with quick apm. Practice in an uprising if you like. Not to mention that losing a maul is nowhere NEAR a 20-30% damage loss, it is far more punishing for Concealment (at least in 4.0).

 

Not intitially. The Force regeneration fallout is the problem.

If you don't Maul for a longer period of time you won't have Dark Embrace. THAT is the real problem.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Evolixe

[Hombad]

Player skill issue? You must be much better than I am at Deception. Sure mate.

 

It's totally my fault that Tyrans at council won't turn his face away after I had to take his crystal.

Or that someone (often myself) overaggros right when I intend to Maul. Costing me a GCD of doing nothing.

Or that Brontes fingerphase keep beaming at my face.

Or that adds which need to be BURNED on Calph face me when I need the damage most.

Or that Titan6 when entering burn only has a set backstabbable position but you can't read it from his form/stance.

And you can't go searching for it because you'll kill others with stacking up.

Or that I have to Tank a Dismantler at Draxus

 

Need I go on? Because I'm sure I can find more.

 

Not intitially. The Force regeneration fallout is the problem.

If you don't Maul for a longer period of time you won't have Dark Embrace. THAT is the real problem.

 

We have our sins on Orb side, and no issues there. Dismantlers on Draxus die so fast 1. its not even an issue; and 2. you can bring to south and aoe for more efficiency anyway. Fingers and Council I will give you that. But I'm not sure how you pull aggro, given that Stealth out is a 100% threat drop. If you are using threat drop reasonably, unless you SUBSTANTIALLY out damage your fellow dps, or there is a tanking issue, there isn't a reason you should pull off tanks unless a mechanic mandates a target swap.

 

Again, this is all quibbling. Point is, the fact that Deception has 1 positional requirement which is at most used once every 10 seconds, with flexible windows of use, is not that difficult or onerous. It gives Deception an extra challenge which I for one welcome

[Evolixe]

The point is also, that it's such a small deal to remove the positional requirement, that it should just be done.

[Hombad]

The point is also, that it's such a small deal to remove the positional requirement, that it should just be done.

 

That's a fair argument. But would it require they change Concealment as well?

[Evolixe]

That's a fair argument. But would it require they change Concealment as well?

 

Concealment can Backstab from the front already. It does a bit less damage iirc.. but I could totally live with the same principle for Maul. As long as it just gives Dark Embrace.

[Hombad]

Concealment can Backstab from the front already. It does a bit less damage iirc.. but I could totally live with the same principle for Maul. As long as it just gives Dark Embrace.

 

Only works every 18 seconds from the front, so every 2 backstabs assuming it is being used on cooldown.

 

I think a nice solution would to have Dark Embrace applied by Reaping Strike. Slightly different durations but would be a SUPER easy fix to your isse, while maintaining the added skill cap for positioning.

[Evolixe]

It would have to last at least twice as long as it does now for that to work, it would end up buffing the class mostly in survivability @ PvP.

 

I wouldn't complain. However there would be much more skill attached to deciding when to use a weakened Maul to keep DE rolling, than there is to getting behind a targets back.