Class changes for 5.3

[Evolixe]

So in light of the new roadmap article, and the confirmation of Class Changes being on the agenda,

I wanted to take the oppertunity to motivate my point of view on what is and what I think should, shouldn't and could be changed.

 

Feel free to add your own suggestions and start a discussion. I will likely be replying to a lot of them.

Going to concentrate more on the DPS side of things myself here,

but please do not keep yourself from posting Darkness/Combat related stuff.

 

Any suggestions I really like I'll try to incorporate to the OP.

I will be updating it myself in the coming days/weeks with suggestions as I think of them.

 

 

 

PvP oriented changes:

Our class is currently in a bit of a semi shadow for ranked applications.

However, I don't think this warrants immediate radical changes.

Why? Because I think that when Snipers and Mercinaries get some of their toys taken away and/or normalized, we will naturally increase in power from the reduction in resistance on the opposite side.

 

I do still think however.. that we could probably do a little bit more damage than what we are doing right now.

If doctored to be out of bursty elements, a 5% general damage increase wouldn't be a bad aim.

However more about this in the PvE section of this post.

 

 

I would so love to have Phase Walk back however.

Coming back to the game seeing it taken away and given to Sorcs instead felt a little heartbreaking.

I do however realize that giving us this skill straight up with the class in it's current form is likely going to create issues in defensive overcapacity.

 

I thought about the suggestion of reversing the Force Speed changes that made it rather lucrative for PvE, but in all honesty.. that would probably not be worth it.

Besides that, I would call wrath upon me from my fellow guildies and PvE Sin/Shadow tanks in general.

 

However, another way of doing it might be a lot more viable. The main problem with Phase Walk being added to the current set of abilities would be in that it can be used as a total escape. Which would be particularly powerful in ranked warzones.

However, if we could develop some sort of attached debuff after using phase walk where you cannot enter stealth for a small period of time that could settle a lot of the troubles that would come along.

I think just blocking stealth might be too simple, but this is something that could be worked on by more creative minds.

 

PLACEHOLDER FOR MORE PVP STUFF

 

PvE oriented changes:

 

As far as PvE goes, the class is in a bit grimmer of a position.

I would really hate to see Deception being completely overhauled because I love being put to work to earn my spot, however.. to make it more competative with Marauders for a viable choice some changes have to be made.

And I really think it's time we ditch the whole "pure DPS class should do more DPS" bull, imo.

There is absolutely no reason an Assassin should be less effective at dealing damage than a Marauder..

You can't be both roles at once anyway.

We have a taunt, but that doesn't make us a tank. That's a piece of raid utility just like Predation.

 

One thing we could start with here is Assassin's Shelter. In it's current form.. the only reason it gets used is because it adds something other than the nothing of pretty much every other utility option.

Unless there are specific mechanics that make those other utilities useful.

I would suggest to remove the heal in it's entirety and bump the Damage Reduction up from 5% to 30%.

That would put it in line with Vanguard/Jugg equivalents.

The only problem here is that the utility might have to become enforced PvE only.

But Mass Taunt already reduces damage income by 30% in PvP by default anyway.

 

As far as raid viability goes there are a couple of ways we could tackle this. One would be to just make us do more damage than everyone else. In the PvP section I already suggested a ~5% increase to consistent damage output. This could be a little higher for PvE if we were to be going down this road. 5% base wouldn't be bad, but to increase balance viability versus a class that can literally give the entire raid a periodic 10% DPS increase whenever it needs that, 10% more overall output would probably be more in-line. Or we could keep the 5% and take something like a Crit/Surge raid wide buff. I'm personally not so fond of those however.

 

For damage incredments I was thinking towards increasing Voltaic Slash damage by something around 30% and making Twin Surge a 100% chance. Not only would these 2 serve as solid increases to persistent damage output, they would also lower the RNG fluctuation that is a bit of a plague to the spec.

No spec has a bigger disparity between parses. You can literally do everything right and score 9.5k DPS the first time, and 10.5k the second time.

Without doing a single thing differently or wrong. Now I'm sure there's going to be people saying "HA PARSES" but I mean.. as far as RNG goes.. it doesn't care if you are on a dummy or on a boss. The dummy is actually an excellent way to lay out the template and see how RNG affects the spec.

 

The other thing about this is also that it does almost nothing for your burst period.

Voltaic Slash isn't a part of it and Twin Surge already happens half the time anyway.

It being guaranteed just means people can expect it and arm themselves to combat that.

 

There is also the topic of removing the positional requirement of Maul.

And that's an argument I'm all for. The game has developed a long way since 2011, and I no longer see any reason why you shouldn't be able to Maul into enemies faces. Maul is now the bread and butter of the entire spec.

Without Maul, you don't have an armor debuff, and you don't have the force regen to sustain everything else.

The spec literally depends on being able to Maul.

Anything that denies it utterly crushes the offensive and selfsustaining capacity of the spec.

Given the lack of even possible valid counterarguments to implementing this, I suggest it to be done as soon as possible imo.

 

 

 

 

 

That'll be all for tonight folks. Going to bed for an early rise tomorrow morning but ill be back with more tomorrow. Mainwhile, I wanted to post this to start the discussion... if there will be one.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Evolixe

[Luuin]

Will be interesting to see how they re balance PvP. Cause I see a lot of healers and those few outlying dps as god mode. Whether on my team or not i'll see a healer facetank 2-3 DPS and never drop below half HP. Whether that's due to overtuned healing or undertuned dps I'll leave to the experts to decide, but I see it enough to become noticable and it doesn't seem right, even through kicks and stuns.

 

As for PvE i can only really hope they fix the sustained DPS trees for Assassin/Shadow and Sorcerer/Sage. I love playing Hatred/Madness but they have so many issues.

[VonFinklestein]

Our damage is pretty lackluster when compared to other melee classes.

 

I'd like to see that improve for sure.

[Evolixe]

- Added part about Maul @ Front

- Added the beginnings for an idea for a balanced return of Phase Walk to Assassins.

 

Looking to add sections with Hatred stuff, but still thinking about what I want to post in there.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Evolixe

[Ottoattack]

if there is a choice between phase walk and force speed being at 15 secs I will unquestionably choose force speed. It is one of the primary reasons I currently play sins and the reason I did not in 4.0. Do I want phase walk back? Sure. If it comes at cost of force speed CD increase, then hell no.

 

I am 100% with you on the maul requirement for Dec.

 

Hatred needs major buff. It should be one of the highest parsing specs in PvE. In PvP, I think they should forgo the dot spread in favor of strong sustain single target damage.

 

If anything, BW should make maul usable from any spot for Dec, then focus their efforts on hatred.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Ottoattack

[Evolixe]

Force Speed an Phase Walk are 2 entirely different abilities doing different things, though.

I mean they both make you move, but that's where the comparability of them ends.

 

I personally like to see Phase Walks return purely for the options it creates for engaging play around objectives.

We don't need it's survivability increment potential at all though.

 

As far as Maul and Deception go.. just removing its positional requirement wouldn't be sufficient enough to actually make the spec a competative choice to a Marauder. Hell it won't do anything for PvP at all. But Deception needs something in PvE and it wouldn't hurt to get just a little bit of love for PvP too.

 

The general line of the class is really good. We don't need massive changes, just some tweaks.

[Aragost]

I think Darkness getting back its 2% heal ticks would go down quite nicely Edited June 1, 2017 by Aragost

[Evolixe]

I think Darkness getting back its 2% heal ticks would go down quite nicely

 

Right

 

Hello to you too.

[TheLadySeydlitz]

Darkness is pretty solid atm, so I don't think that needs any changes.

Deception is also solid, though I agree a few tweaks would be nice, namely sorting out Maul and a damage increase.

Or just bring back the double stance bug. Aww yeah, those were some good times.

 

Having phasewalk back would be cool, and I'd like to see Assassin's Shelter improved too, it's pretty useless atm.

Insulation also needs to be looked at, the armour buff isn't displaying correctly unless you enter an instance, and stacks of DR that get applied to a guarded target when they take damage are still there, even though they aren't mentioned in the utility description.

 

Hatred needs some work, and I went over my ideas for this in another thread, but I'll throw them in here too.

 

Firstly, damage increase. Sustained dps should out-do Deception, and currently it doesn't. And as a melee dot-spec, it should be one of the higher parsing classes anyway, as Otto mentioned.

Aside from just a straight damage buff, I'd reduce Bloodletting's cd by a few seconds, and I'd also like to reduce our filler-usage on Thrash a bit. Deception was given Reaping Strike for a similar purpose, after all. To that end, perhaps Maul could be introduced into our rotation somehow?

Making Eradicate's dot spreadable would be cool, though not strictly necessary.

Also, a tweak to Leeching Strike. I'd reduce the cd to match Raze, making it easier to line up with the lvl 68 passive, which itself could stand to gain a small buff, as 5% extra damage per dot isn't much.

 

In survivability terms, needs the 30% aoe damage reduction back, without question. Could either put it straight into the skill tree somewhere, or, take it out of Deception's tree and add it back to Shapeless Spirit, though have the utility set to only apply the aoe damage reduction to the dps specs and not Darkness, kinda like Insulation does.

A small buff to dot and Death Field self heals would also be nice, but also not strictly necessary, considering that Leeching Strike restores quite a bit, especially when it crits. Alternatively, make Eradicate's dot self heal too.

 

Last thing I can think of is force management. I'd either improve Lightning Charge's force regen capabilities, or I'd decrease force costs by however much across the board. And removing a few Saber Strikes from the equation would also be a small dps increase, of course. Though having said that, if Hatred was a high-parsing spec as we would like it to be, I could live with poor force management. A small price to pay for good performance, and it's not that difficult to contend with either, especially when compared to, say, PT's, which are in a world of trouble if they blow their heat and don't have Vent Heat off cooldown.

[Evolixe]

Hatred needs some work, and I went over my ideas for this in another thread, but I'll throw them in here too.

 

Firstly, damage increase. Sustained dps should out-do Deception, and currently it doesn't. And as a melee dot-spec, it should be one of the higher parsing classes anyway, as Otto mentioned.

Aside from just a straight damage buff, I'd reduce Bloodletting's cd by a few seconds, and I'd also like to reduce our filler-usage on Thrash a bit. Deception was given Reaping Strike for a similar purpose, after all. To that end, perhaps Maul could be introduced into our rotation some....

 

I also think we could easily have the 30 meter Death Field back. Even if it's just for QoL purposes. It doesn't DoT spread anymore and hasn't for some time.. which was the biggest issue with DF having such a big range.

Now that it doesn't, I think we can revert that change just to give Hatred a little leeway in the details.

 

I will probably incorporate some of your stuff into the OP when I have time tomorrow evening. Bed now.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Evolixe

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So in light of the new roadmap article, and the confirmation of Class Changes being on the agenda,

I wanted to take the oppertunity to motivate my point of view on what is and what I think should, shouldn't and could be changed.

 

Feel free to add your own suggestions and start a discussion. I will likely be replying to a lot of them.

Going to concentrate more on the DPS side of things myself here,

but please do not keep yourself from posting Darkness/Combat related stuff.

 

Any suggestions I really like I'll try to incorporate to the OP.

I will be updating it myself in the coming days/weeks with suggestions as I think of them.

 

 

 

PvP oriented changes:

Our class is currently in a bit of a semi shadow for ranked applications.

However, I don't think this warrants immediate radical changes.

Why? Because I think that when Snipers and Mercinaries get some of their toys taken away and/or normalized, we will naturally increase in power from the reduction in resistance on the opposite side.

 

I do still think however.. that we could probably do a little bit more damage than what we are doing right now.

If doctored to be out of bursty elements, a 5% general damage increase wouldn't be a bad aim.

However more about this in the PvE section of this post.

 

 

I would so love to have Phase Walk back however.

Coming back to the game seeing it taken away and given to Sorcs instead felt a little heartbreaking.

I do however realize that giving us this skill straight up with the class in it's current form is likely going to create issues in defensive overcapacity.

 

I thought about the suggestion of reversing the Force Speed changes that made it rather lucrative for PvE, but in all honesty.. that would probably not be worth it.

Besides that, I would call wrath upon me from my fellow guildies and PvE Sin/Shadow tanks in general.

 

However, another way of doing it might be a lot more viable. The main problem with Phase Walk being added to the current set of abilities would be in that it can be used as a total escape. Which would be particularly powerful in ranked warzones.

However, if we could develop some sort of attached debuff after using phase walk where you cannot enter stealth for a small period of time that could settle a lot of the troubles that would come along.

I think just blocking stealth might be too simple, but this is something that could be worked on by more creative minds.

 

PLACEHOLDER FOR MORE PVP STUFF

 

PvE oriented changes:

 

As far as PvE goes, the class is in a bit grimmer of a position.

I would really hate to see Deception being completely overhauled because I love being put to work to earn my spot, however.. to make it more competative with Marauders for a viable choice some changes have to be made.

And I really think it's time we ditch the whole "pure DPS class should do more DPS" bull, imo.

There is absolutely no reason an Assassin should be less effective at dealing damage than a Marauder..

You can't be both roles at once anyway.

We have a taunt, but that doesn't make us a tank. That's a piece of raid utility just like Predation.

 

One thing we could start with here is Assassin's Shelter. In it's current form.. the only reason it gets used is because it adds something other than the nothing of pretty much every other utility option.

Unless there are specific mechanics that make those other utilities useful.

I would suggest to remove the heal in it's entirety and bump the Damage Reduction up from 5% to 30%.

That would put it in line with Vanguard/Jugg equivalents.

The only problem here is that the utility might have to become enforced PvE only.

But Mass Taunt already reduces damage income by 30% in PvP by default anyway.

 

As far as raid viability goes there are a couple of ways we could tackle this. One would be to just make us do more damage than everyone else. In the PvP section I already suggested a ~5% increase to consistent damage output. This could be a little higher for PvE if we were to be going down this road. 5% base wouldn't be bad, but to increase balance viability versus a class that can literally give the entire raid a periodic 10% DPS increase whenever it needs that, 10% more overall output would probably be more in-line. Or we could keep the 5% and take something like a Crit/Surge raid wide buff. I'm personally not so fond of those however.

 

There is also the topic of removing the positional requirement of Maul.

And that's an argument I'm all for. The game has developed a long way since 2011, and I no longer see any reason why you shouldn't be able to Maul into enemies faces. Maul is now the bread and butter of the entire spec.

Without Maul, you don't have an armor debuff, and you don't have the force regen to sustain everything else.

The spec literally depends on being able to Maul.

Anything that denies it utterly crushes the offensive and selfsustaining capacity of the spec.

Given the lack of even possible valid counterarguments to implementing this, I suggest it to be done as soon as possible imo.

 

 

 

 

 

That'll be all for tonight folks. Going to bed for an early rise tomorrow morning but ill be back with more tomorrow. Mainwhile, I wanted to post this to start the discussion... if there will be one.

 

I realize this is the Assassin forum, and I'm not sure if you are only looking for discussion from only Assassins or not, I'll be brief. If you are not interested in hearing any views from non-Assassin, i will refrain from responding to any response my post may engender. My comment is singular to begin with and is really only intended to give a realistic idea of the response that would probably occur.

 

I respect that people feel that just because a class has the option of more than one role, that that should not in and of itself be used as a reason for keeping the different role specs subpar to a class that doesn't have the option of changing roles. Improvements can come in many forms, from better DPS, to better defensive capability, stronger heals, better control [CC] and what have you. It is to be expected that people will want what's best for the classes and specs they hold most dear.

 

That said, my only comment has to do with increasing Assassins DPS to a level higher than Marauders. Now, I won't lie and say that I agree with your point that "pure DPS classes" shouldn't do more DPS than none pure DPS classes, because I do believe that. But, I only believe that wherein the pure DPS class is actually a pure DPS in practice and not just in label.

 

Technically Snipers are a 'pure DPS class', but they no longer function like one. When you have more DCDs than any other class, and have the ability to gain heals, your DPS should not also be higher than everyone elses. I think we can see how that went off track in PVP especially.

 

But it is a little bit different for Marauders. Yes, we do have excellent DCDs, but they are in fact fleeting when you take into consideration their length of time vs their cool down period, and the average length of time of your average WZ or boss fight. If you are talking about a WZ that could go ten minutes or more potentiallyy, and off that time, you are talking about 45 seconds of active DCD time. So, the reality is you are spending most of your time without an active DCD. When you add to this a total lack of self heals, this is also something to be taken into consideration. After all, you can't DPS if you are dead. Wherein you find a WZ where there is no healer present on the marauders team, this will without question effect his DPS output for very obvious reasons.

 

Assassins have the option of entering stealth, and while this may be bad for DPS, it is something that can be done to stay alive. Once again, you can't DPS when you are dead.

 

Assassins do excellent damage in WZs, and it is not at all uncommon for them to come in first for damage done.

Skank Tanking is also something that needs to be taken into consideration because while they are technically in a tank spec, they are doing DPS level damage. This is wherein your find a role change that does effect even DPS performance. It is extremely common, and it is an excellent performer because Assassins tanks are currently the strongest tanks in the game, add DPS gear to that, and the results are very obvious.

 

Self heals should matter in consideration to potential DPS output. This is where Marauders can only be justified in not having any if their DPS is higher to compensate for it. Should this not be the case, than you make a Marauder a subpar choice, because someone who has better DPS and better Survivabilty, is the better choice to have on the team. Class buffs and nerfs effect both pvp and pve equally and must be considered in any potential buffs or nerfs.

 

Assassins are either the best or neck in neck with OPs as the best duelers in the game. Their CC kit is very strong, and has great effects that effect DPS. [After all if you can attack a stunned opponent and they can't attack you, that gives you more opportunity than them to do DPS]. Assassins can blink out, they can H2F and come back and their opponent didn't leave combat mode during that time, so they can in effect reset the combat, at least for themselves.

 

The ability to gaurd and taunt in DPS specs absolutely serve as advantages especially in PVP. A marauder cannot avoid enemies anywhere near the way an Assassin can and their stealth make them invaluable to many objectives you find in PVP.

 

In closing, there are many things an Assassin can offer that a Marauder simply cannot. In fact DPS is the only thing a Marauder can offer. Were Marauders to be secondary to Assassins in DPS, Marauders will not be okay with that because it is all they have.You sited the idea that there is no justification for Marauders doing more dps than Assassins, and in fact, it really isn't about being a pure DPS class or not. That justification I think can be seen in another way at face value.

 

Assassins aren't warriors. Marauders are Warriors., and warriors should be better at fighting than non warriors. Really the word warrior says it all.

 

Lee Harvey Oswald didn't beat John F. Kennedy in a fight. John Wilkes Booth didn't beat Abraham Lincoln in a fight. James Earl Ray didn't beat Martin Luther King in a fight. They assassinated them.

 

Assassins should get phase walk back, they never should have lost it in the first place. They have much greater claim to it than Sorcs ever did.I hope you do not mind my response. I do hope Assassins fair well in the coming class changes.

Edited June 2, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Evolixe]

Alright so first off... please don't quote the entire OP. Especially if it's such a long one.

Everyone will just assume you're talking about the topic at hand if you don't have any quote to start with.

If you really feel like you have to, just cut it off after a sentence or two.

 

Either way, I wanted to take my time and explain to you in detail as to where I think you are wrong, and dispute everything where you more than likely just misunderstood me. Your entire post is based around the idea that I think Assassins should do more damage than Marauders. And then you start giving arguments for PvP related stuff.

The fact of the matter is.. I don't think Assassins need to do more damage than Marauders in PvP.

 

You probably got this idea from my PvE section, but just because we might do more damage in PvE doesn't mean that would directly transfer to PvP as well. I mean do you remember the double stance bug? Do you really think that players affected by that bug were doing massive amounts of damage? Marauders were still ahead then. And I think we should strave to achieve the numbers we had under that bug.. except maybe another way that is less.. buggy.

 

As of the whole tanking business.. my damage incredments aren't aimed towards that spec.

I think Darkness has absolutely nothing to complain about right now and should probably be very glad if it doesn't get nerfed.

 

I really have to put in the following quote though:

 

Assassins aren't warriors. Marauders are Warriors., and warriors should be better at fighting than non warriors. Really the word warrior says it all.

 

I mean come on man, what sort of an argument is that? Do you really believe your own words here?

It should be better at DPS because it's named Warrior? That's like the sort of argument a 5 year old would put up.

 

 

Look Grim, from what I've seen you posting around the boards you don't strike me as an unreasonable guy.

I myself play many classes and Marauder is one of them. I have over a decade of PvP and PvE experience in various MMO games and I take all of this knowledge under consideration before exposing my ideas to the public.

 

Trust me, a godlike Assassin era followed by an even more unholy nerfbat a few months later is the last thing I'm after.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Evolixe

[quantez]

Many words about defending own class

 

I think you are mixing up evolixe's pve and pvp arguments.

 

In pvp, (burst)dps and dcd's/stealth/selfheals matter.

In PvE only dps and to a lesser extent raid utillities matter. Dcd's and stealth etc do not. How many sins/opers/sorc/jugg dps are in HM/Nim teams nowadays?

 

Unfortunately balancing classes between pve and pvp has proved to be too difficult for BW

[Sheike]

I think Darkness getting back its 2% heal ticks would go down quite nicely

 

Considering the fact that some classes get to put up multiple health bars before going down as dps while we only get one, I'm not exactly sure how this would be unfair for us to have at this point.

[Luuin]

I think you are mixing up evolixe's pve and pvp arguments.

 

In pvp, (burst)dps and dcd's/stealth/selfheals matter.

In PvE only dps and to a lesser extent raid utillities matter. Dcd's and stealth etc do not. How many sins/opers/sorc/jugg dps are in HM/Nim teams nowadays?

Unfortunately balancing classes between pve and pvp has proved to be too difficult for BW

 

Sad but true. It's why Blizzard has started doing stat templates for classes. It changes your character stats and ability stat ratios based on whether you're in PvE or PvP combat. That way a PvP balance change doesn't completely screw up their PvE balance and vise versa.

 

It's something Bioware should consider doing so they can stop completely ruining a class spec when they nerf it in one area of the game that affects the other.

[CraigOnXD]

i would like to see:

-guard on dps specs removed

-improvements for hatred (maybe better selfheals?or range LOL?)

They could give burst classes their 30% crit dmg bonus on some attacks back which got nerfed with 4.0.3 (HP is fckin high atm), this would need some adjustments for dot specs tho...

 

YES DUDES GIVE SINS SOME KIND OF PW BACK

[Ottoattack]

For Hatred, in detail currently:

 

• It falls behind on single target damage, even though it is a dot spec, in both PvP and PvE.
  
• For AOE also Dec performs better in PvE.
  
• Has one above 10 meter skills not capable of interruption. All melee classes have at least one 30 meter skill capable of interrupting a node capture expect Hatred.
  
• Probably, worst melee dps in terms of survivability in ops.
  
• Weak suvivability in PvP in both sustain sustain suvivability and DCDs. The most comparative spec, annihilation mara, runs lower 30% in damage reduction (almost 10% higher than hatred) and has substantially better DCDs. Even the healing from the dots is better for annihilation. Veng is probably the next best comparative specs, has around the same sustained damage, but significantly more AOE damage (like 3-4 times stronger). Again, much higher damage reduction and better DCDs.
  

 

Both annihilation and veng are much better in PvP (and neither is top tier anyway), both parse higher in PvE and more suvivable in any context.

 

What is needed:

1. Better single target damage.
   
2. Better range option.
   
3. Better survivability.
   

 

What we should avoid:

1. Focusing on healing from dots (it either does not work or becomes OP in PvP).
   
2. Super cleave (3.0 anyone?).
   

 

My suggestions:

1. Dot damage increase armor rating and defense chance by 1% for 5 secs. Increase by 1 per sec and cap at 5%.
   
2. Reduce AOE taunt CD through one of the skills to 35 secs (down from 45).
   
3. Increase damage of Eradicate by 15% and increase its range to 30 meters.
   
4. Increase death field range to 30 meters.
   
5. Increase damage of discharge by 10%.
   
6. Assassinate rate proc to 12 secs down from 15 secs.
   
7. Leaching hunger utility, instead of what it does, increase damage of leaching strike by 20% on target affected by you dots (only 1 is needed).
   

 

I cannot specifically tell if the damage going to be enough or too high, but the goal is to make hatred parse around the same level of annihilation and lethality in PvE and has strong single target sustain damage in PvP, paired with decent survivability.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Ottoattack

[Evolixe]

- Replied to post from this morning.

- Added ideas for DPS increases to Deception.

 

- Still working on Hatred Section. May have to reformat the whole post to keep it readable.

[Evolixe]

Considering the fact that some classes get to put up multiple health bars before going down as dps while we only get one, I'm not exactly sure how this would be unfair for us to have at this point.

 

He was joking, and while I understand you realized.. there was a reason for it.

That small heal only complicates a bunch of things.

It's not really something we need and I'd rather not see it's return to avoid complications.

 

Besides, only Darkness has access to Depredating Volts. And Darkness doesn't need anything.

 

We got our Force Lightning taken away somewhere between 4.0 and 5.0.

Which imo is a damn shame. That stuff was useful in rare occassions and I liked having the option of blowing a Recklessness to do this. It really required you to think about either or not you actually wanted to do that.

Creative thinking solutions = a good thing. Don't take that away for the simple sake of class ideology.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Evolixe

[assatrap]

My personal suggestions mainly for PVP but equally applicable in PVE:

 

1: Some kind of modified Phasewalk is needed for Assasins. Our survivability is very limited. All our major DCDs are 2min CD besides Vanish which can easily be revealed even with force shroud utility by mercs and maras we are like sitting ducks most of the time. All we can rely on is Low Slash... but 4 sec soft stun which missed half of the time?... our DCDS are very limited and way too long CD compared to our stealth counterpart Operatives.

 

2: Force Shroud is bugged. Countless times i activate force shroud before ambush, blazing bolt etc.... yet the force shroud does nothing...extremly unreliable DCD just like phantom stride and its one of our major DCD...whiles our stealth counterpart Operatives have it on 150% reflect and with reduced CD!

 

3. 30m/10m attacks... (deception) i know we are a melee class but why do our stealth counterpart Operatives have Unlimited Rifle Shot, Corrosive Dart and Frag Grenade with 30m range? and we sins have NOTHING except low slash?... in 5.0 where all classes extreme mobility with endless knockbacks, pushbacks, speed buffs, cc's, roots, slows and RDPS have superior damage... and we have bascily no attacks over 4m range...this is part of the reason why our DPS suffers alot in comparison with maras and juggs. IF your not going to give us any attacks over 4m then atleast give us some form of CC immunity like fury maras so we can be usefull before we get globaled. With 5.0 all our range attacks were gone like Force lightning yet obviously Operatives got to keep theirs and even made Overload shot 10m range energy based....

Edited June 2, 2017 by assatrap

[Memo-]

2: Force Shroud is bugged. Countless times i activate force shroud before ambush, blazing bolt etc.... yet the force shroud does nothing...extremly unreliable DCD just like phantom stride and its one of our major DCD...whiles our stealth counterpart Operatives have it on 150% reflect and with reduced CD!

 

Force Shroud shields you from Force and Tech damage, i.e. Yellow Numbers. Ambush, Blazing Bolts, etc. are Ranged damage, which along Melee damage is not affected by Shroud (white damage). But pop Deflection and Shroud at the same time and you will only take 40% (less as tank) of white damage in and none of the yellow.

3. 30m/10m attacks... (deception) i know we are a melee class but why do our stealth counterpart Operatives have Unlimited Rifle Shot, Corrosive Dart and Frag Grenade with 30m range? and we sins have NOTHING except low slash?... in 5.0 where all classes extreme mobility with endless knockbacks, pushbacks, speed buffs, cc's, roots, slows and RDPS have superior damage... and we have bascily no attacks over 4m range...this is part of the reason why our DPS suffers alot in comparison with maras and juggs. IF your not going to give us any attacks over 4m then atleast give us some form of CC immunity like fury maras so we can be usefull before we get globaled. With 5.0 all our range attacks were gone like Force lightning yet obviously Operatives got to keep theirs and even made Overload shot 10m range energy based....

Ball Lightning and Discharge are 10m skills. As are Electrocute Force Slow. And you actually have two 30m options, in Low Slash and Whirlwind. Your melee range skills are just Saber Strike (99% not required), Voltaic Slash, Maul, Reaping Strike, Assassinate and Spike.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Memo-

[invertioN]

I mean come on man, what sort of an argument is that? Do you really believe your own words here?

It should be better at DPS because it's named Warrior? That's like the sort of argument a 5 year old would put up.

 

 

Look Grim, from what I've seen you posting around the boards you don't strike me as an unreasonable guy.

I myself play many classes and Marauder is one of them. I have over a decade of PvP and PvE experience in various MMO games and I take all of this knowledge under consideration before exposing my ideas to the public.

 

Trust me, a godlike Assassin era followed by an even more unholy nerfbat a few months later is the last thing I'm after.

Have you guys played Assassin's Creed? In my opinion assassins should be able to do what the name says - 1 shot assassinate people from stealth. What do you think, maybe we can suggest this to Keith?

[CraigOnXD]

Have you guys played Assassin's Creed? In my opinion assassins should be able to do what the name says - 1 shot assassinate people from stealth. What do you think, maybe we can suggest this to Keith?

 

sounds pretty solid and could probably balance this class

 

sign

[Evolixe]

1: Some kind of modified Phasewalk is needed for Assasins. Our survivability is very limited. All our major DCDs are 2min CD besides Vanish which can easily be revealed even with force shroud utility by mercs and maras we are like sitting ducks most of the time. All we can rely on is Low Slash... but 4 sec soft stun which missed half of the time?... our DCDS are very limited and way too long CD compared to our stealth counterpart Operatives.

 

I don't recognize myself in this whatsoever. Given careful use of DCD's, an Assassin is at the very least as hard to kill as a Marauder. But I would sooner compare our survivability to that of Operatives.

The only thing they got going for them is that they can roll enemy cooldowns.

Of course that's not a small thing, but then again... they don't have our damage.

This is why I want to be extremely careful with getting Phase Walk back to the class.

I think it might be possible.. but adjustments are definitely needed. We can't have it like we had it in 2.0 and 3.0.

 

 

2: Force Shroud is bugged. Countless times i activate force shroud before ambush, blazing bolt etc.... yet the force shroud does nothing...extremly unreliable DCD just like phantom stride and its one of our major DCD...whiles our stealth counterpart Operatives have it on 150% reflect and with reduced CD!

 

Shroud never works on physical damage. But it does indeed still sometimes albeit rarely bug out and let certain force/tech effects through.

 

 

3. 30m/10m attacks... (deception) i know we are a melee class but why do our stealth counterpart Operatives have Unlimited Rifle Shot, Corrosive Dart and Frag Grenade with 30m range? and we sins have NOTHING except low slash?... in 5.0 where all classes extreme mobility with endless knockbacks, pushbacks, speed buffs, cc's, roots, slows and RDPS have superior damage... and we have bascily no attacks over 4m range...this is part of the reason why our DPS suffers alot in comparison with maras and juggs. IF your not going to give us any attacks over 4m then atleast give us some form of CC immunity like fury maras so we can be usefull before we get globaled. With 5.0 all our range attacks were gone like Force lightning yet obviously Operatives got to keep theirs and even made Overload shot 10m range energy based....

 

All I would like to see here is just to have our 30m Lightning back when combined with Recklessness. I don't think it was ever necessary to remove that. But we definitely don't need to Maul people from 30m or anything like that.

[assatrap]

I don't recognize myself in this whatsoever. Given careful use of DCD's, an Assassin is at the very least as hard to kill as a Marauder. But I would sooner compare our survivability to that of Operatives.

The only thing they got going for them is that they can roll enemy cooldowns.

Of course that's not a small thing, but then again... they don't have our damage.

This is why I want to be extremely careful with getting Phase Walk back to the class.

I think it might be possible.. but adjustments are definitely needed. We can't have it like we had it in 2.0 and 3.0.

 

 

 

 

Shroud never works on physical damage. But it does indeed still sometimes albeit rarely bug out and let certain force/tech effects through.

 

 

 

 

All I would like to see here is just to have our 30m Lightning back when combined with Recklessness. I don't think it was ever necessary to remove that. But we definitely don't need to Maul people from 30m or anything like that.

 

Ye my bad about the force shroud i play operative too and mixed them up and they have melee and range evasion which resists all the BIG HITTERS...is exactly what sins should have but ofc... we get to dodge "force and tech" attacks... (gotta resist that lightning bolt.. lol)

 

Also i agree we dont need 30m maul ofc. But 30m attack like force lightning could definetly increase our usefullness. Yes we got Ball lightning but its mainly used when proc... but Discharge is like every other 18-20sec a 10m attack. We rely way too heavily on 4m attacks. Whilst opers can ust spam rifle shot, grenade, overload shot and dot when out of 4m range. This is a serious issue when you try to duel against mercs and snipers.

Something like force lightning is definetly needed. The current meta in 5.0 Its just too easy for enemies to push us/move out of 4m range over and over again. Yes we got ball lightning 1 single attack that is more then 4m range.. lol. Now notice iam not complaining about our dps or burst they are ok.

 

Yeh but i totally disagree with you on operatives exolive. They have 15sec lower cooldown on hard stun THIS IS HUGE. With utility it comes down to 30sec which most opers have and with high alacrity opers the cooldown of the 4sec hardstun comes to about 26-25 seconds. Combine that with Shield probe every 25 sec which lasts for 10sec (so essentialy a 15s cd) and welltimed roll's...(+offheals) even our slightly better burst cannot compensate for that unless. This is why when 2 opers chase your pretty much going to get globaled because they stun chain.

 

They just have too many advantages especially with that very short cd on hardstun they can burst us down very hard too and often. Whilst opers can quickly get away from 4m range with 2 quick rolls, los and offheal... if we do the same it doesnt work because they have alot of 30m range attacks and alot faster then us so all they have to do is wait us out for when our dcds are down. Our 5-10% better burst is pretty much meaningless because they have plenty of oppurtuinty to recuperate easily. The only advantage we have is the first like 4-5 seconds...

 

And this type of scenario was exactly why Phase Walk was needed as a sin... but now we that removed.. wer just too vulnerable and limited in range compared to our stealth counterpart.