5.2 Gear Gap even worse pvp. Keith please fix.

[AscendingSky]

I only PvP occasionally, so I'm far from an expert here. However, it seems to me that simply setting the PvP bolster to the maximum gear level would solve most of the problem. If gear stopped mattering, player skill would matter a lot more in its place. Sure, class balancing is still needed (because there are definitely certain classes and specs that do much better in PvP with less effort right now), but that's going to take longer to tweak, whereas simply upping the bolster rating by comparison is a simple and easy fix. So that solution has my vote too!

[IanArgent]

As it was all they had to do was wear 190 lvl green gear until they got their pvp gear. This should have also been detailed in the game so people would know.

 

Which leads to the issue of having to maintain 2 sets of gear, even if you don't care about BiS stats. Not everyone is hanging around fleet in their PvP armor while waiting for queues to pop - some us were (and are) out in the world righting wrongs, wronging rights, and force choking the deserving, the undeserving, and the occasional innocent bystander.

 

Teh answer should not be "keep two gear sets, or be doomed." (And to the extent that there are different BiS answers to PvP and PVE, perhaps they should consider adjusting either the PvP or PvE combat models to account for that. That's within their span of control.)

[Vember]

I only PvP occasionally, so I'm far from an expert here. However, it seems to me that simply setting the PvP bolster to the maximum gear level would solve most of the problem. If gear stopped mattering, player skill would matter a lot more in its place. Sure, class balancing is still needed (because there are definitely certain classes and specs that do much better in PvP with less effort right now), but that's going to take longer to tweak, whereas simply upping the bolster rating by comparison is a simple and easy fix. So that solution has my vote too!

 

You have two sides to every story though. Some players want gear incentive in pvp, some don't. So you'll either alienate the ones that want to pvp for gear to make them stronger, or you'll alienate the ones that want gear to be a non issue. One way or the other, some portion of the pvp player base is going to be upset.

 

Edit - I agree with Ian, I absolutely hated having to have two sets of gear back when Expertise was a thing.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Vember

[mmmbuddah]

Which leads to the issue of having to maintain 2 sets of gear, even if you don't care about BiS stats. Not everyone is hanging around fleet in their PvP armor while waiting for queues to pop - some us were (and are) out in the world righting wrongs, wronging rights, and force choking the deserving, the undeserving, and the occasional innocent bystander.

 

Teh answer should not be "keep two gear sets, or be doomed." (And to the extent that there are different BiS answers to PvP and PVE, perhaps they should consider adjusting either the PvP or PvE combat models to account for that. That's within their span of control.)

 

You still need 2 sets though otherwise you are just a detriment to your team.....

[Icykill_]

Which leads to the issue of having to maintain 2 sets of gear, even if you don't care about BiS stats. Not everyone is hanging around fleet in their PvP armor while waiting for queues to pop - some us were (and are) out in the world righting wrongs, wronging rights, and force choking the deserving, the undeserving, and the occasional innocent bystander.

 

Teh answer should not be "keep two gear sets, or be doomed." (And to the extent that there are different BiS answers to PvP and PVE, perhaps they should consider adjusting either the PvP or PvE combat models to account for that. That's within their span of control.)

 

In WoW there is a gear swap feature in the character gear pane for it you go from pvp to pve or there used to be. This is something I used when I played WoW. It's certainly something that could be looked at.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Icykill_

[mmmbuddah]

In WoW there is a gear swap feature in the character gear pane for it you go from pvp to pve or there used to be. This is something I used when I played WoW. It's certainly something that could be looked at.

 

All they would need to hae done is make it so you have 2 sets of gear equipped at all times. And you could just switch it manually at any time.

[Rion_Starkiller]

You have two sides to every story though. Some players want gear incentive in pvp, some don't. So you'll either alienate the ones that want to pvp for gear to make them stronger, or you'll alienate the ones that want gear to be a non issue. One way or the other, some portion of the pvp player base is going to be upset.

 

Edit - I agree with Ian, I absolutely hated having to have two sets of gear back when Expertise was a thing.

 

I didn't hate it, but it was definitely a money sink. Multiple legacy gear sets and inventory space was a problem for me.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[IanArgent]

You still need 2 sets though otherwise you are just a detriment to your team.....

 

The casual PvPers (should) end up on both teams more or less at random; you pays your money and you takes your chances. Remember, we already have bolster.

 

Other than Accuracy only needing to be 100% in PvP, is there any other major change to the stats? Tanks need more EDN in PvP I seem to recall, except when people are telling you to skank tank anyway.

 

Fix bolster to leave a small gap for gear at the high end, fix the PvP combat model so that BiS isn't wildly different between the two modes (should have been done when Expertise went away)

[jimmorrisson]

5.0's gearing via command crates with small drops of unassembled components has been a disaster and continues to be a disaster.

 

Also buff marauder and powertech.

[AscendingSky]

All they would need to hae done is make it so you have 2 sets of gear equipped at all times. And you could just switch it manually at any time.

 

This would be a great feature to add. It would help not only PvPers, but people who swap between tank/DPS or heals/DPS on a regular basis.

[mmmbuddah]

The casual PvPers (should) end up on both teams more or less at random; you pays your money and you takes your chances. Remember, we already have bolster.

 

Other than Accuracy only needing to be 100% in PvP, is there any other major change to the stats? Tanks need more EDN in PvP I seem to recall, except when people are telling you to skank tank anyway.

 

Fix bolster to leave a small gap for gear at the high end, fix the PvP combat model so that BiS isn't wildly different between the two modes (should have been done when Expertise went away)

 

There is a difference. In pvp you want most of your augments save 2 or 3 to be mastery / power. In pve you dont. That is a huge state difference. Then there is the accuracy bit. If you want to do any damage in pvp you need 2 sets. Every pvp'er knows that. Honestly, with keith being in power now, as a pvp player, i have hopes that we get expertise back, until then there will be a monster problem that we have now.

[AllisonLightning]

Then what would be the point of having any gear above 128 rating or whatever you choose to use? You do know that even top tier gear would be bolstered to this "above top tier gear" rating, right?

 

PvP instances, like Iokath for example- we were happy with 208 as our highest and Expertise. We are not happy that NiM level gear can be brought in at the moment, stop acting like we want a free pass because that's not true. We need Expertise and I'll gladly grab a baseline Expertise set for my twelve level 70s with a i.e. 230/234 max and have a second set for anything else.

[americanaussie]

PvP instances, like Iokath for example- we were happy with 208 as our highest and Expertise. We are not happy that NiM level gear can be brought in at the moment, stop acting like we want a free pass because that's not true. We need Expertise and I'll gladly grab a baseline Expertise set for my twelve level 70s with a i.e. 230/234 max and have a second set for anything else.

 

Why do we need expertise?

[Andryah]

PvP instances, like Iokath for example- we were happy with 208 as our highest and Expertise. We are not happy that NiM level gear can be brought in at the moment, stop acting like we want a free pass because that's not true. We need Expertise and I'll gladly grab a baseline Expertise set for my twelve level 70s with a i.e. 230/234 max and have a second set for anything else.

 

Expertise has been removed from the game. I really do not see it returning.

 

Gotta move on.

[americanaussie]

I think it was removed to make it easier for people to get involved in PvP. I think honestly this helped to revitalise PvP.

[IanArgent]

I'm going to tell the PvP folks the same thing I tell the PvE folks - it needs to be accessible to casuals. Two gear sets is not accessible to casuals. Casuals are going to have one suit, which probably won't have optimal stats, because casuals don't read the theorycrafting boards. They're going to run with whatever dropped from crates and loot, so that needs to be pretty effective. At the entry-level mode, anyway, and that's unranked queues.

 

I'm OK with there being the possibility of squeezing out a marginal performance gain from BiS vs baseline, but especially in PvP, where half the players, by definition, are going to lose, there needs to be a much more apparent appearance of fairness and accessibility.

[Skummy]

I'm going to tell the PvP folks the same thing I tell the PvE folks - it needs to be accessible to casuals. Two gear sets is not accessible to casuals. Casuals are going to have one suit, which probably won't have optimal stats, because casuals don't read the theorycrafting boards. They're going to run with whatever dropped from crates and loot, so that needs to be pretty effective. At the entry-level mode, anyway, and that's unranked queues.

 

I'm OK with there being the possibility of squeezing out a marginal performance gain from BiS vs baseline, but especially in PvP, where half the players, by definition, are going to lose, there needs to be a much more apparent appearance of fairness and accessibility.

 

 

Well when you're a casual you dont get or need two sets of gear. lol Sorry you need to grind. I dont go to other mmos and demand i get the best gear. i have to grind it out.......

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I think it was removed to make it easier for people to get involved in PvP. I think honestly this helped to revitalise PvP.

 

It has been removed from the game as of 5.0. It's been gone for the 5 n change months since 5.0 dropped.

 

There are two schools of thought on the removal of expertise.

 

1 - It's a good way to get people to do PVP without needing to worry about getting PVP gear, and in fact it did revitalize PVP, unfortunately that revitalization had bad side effects. PVEers started doing PVP not because they didn't need the PVP gear anymore and not even because they even wanted to do PVP but rather because of the good CXP you could get out of doing WZs and because WZs are the only way to earn UCs with which one can buy gear directly, even BIS gear. - It did bring an influx of players in PVP no question, but alot of them do not care about PVP, really don't want to do PVP, and don't try to even bother putting forth effort to help the team win in some cases. Which of course can be very frustraiting to genuine PVPers who love PVP and care about trying to win.

 

2 - Second school of thought is that the gear differences inherative to BIS gearing cuz to wide of gap between skill level and gear level. Most diehard PVPers believe PVP should be about skill and not gear, which, by and large with expertise gearing [save for the differences between 204 and 208 rated expertise gear] was largely the case.

While some overemphasize the differences in the effects of people of various rated gearing, some having an advantage in gear to an extent that it may have more of an impact than of greater skill, there is no question that the differences in rated gear do have an effect on performance. In truth those differences, even in the most extreme cases [say someone using 236 gear vs someone using 242/248 gear] only account for a small difference in performance, 2-4% at most, nonetheness this does create a state where gear has some baring in perfomance. PVPers believe that PVP should be solely about skill vs skill and gearing should not have any influence in perfomance [PVP gearing serving only to create a level playing field, which upon skill rests].

 

Without a seperate form of gear for PVP and PVE each mode of play has effects on the other. You cannot speed up the gearing process so that it is fast to gear out multiple characters because this has an adverse effect on raiding wherein gearing is an intricle part of WHY you raid [least it was before 5.0 and is now again since 5.2]. If gearing FULL BIS is too easy and fast, you take the incentive away for raiding. Raiders love raiding for it's own sake, don't get me wrong, but, there is a tie between the desire to attain better gear and the raiding experience that go hand in hand, very much unlike PVP.

 

In the past BIS gear has always been the sole province of raiding. [save for the disaster of the battlebag era that was much like 5.0 and didn't last long]. Before 5.0 you could not get BIS gear without end game raiding in the HM/NiM difficulty range. Which is where it really belongs.

 

You speed up the BIS gearing process you hurt PVE. You keep it slow, PVPers feel slighted because some people will be better geared than they are which can effect performance.

 

There are two options that remain that can address these issues and allow both PVEers and PVPers to play their respective realms in a manner in keeping with how those spheres are traditionally played wiithout adversly effecting the other sphere.

 

1 - Bring back a seperate PVP based gear to serve as it had in the past, to provide a level playing field which than skill than can be based on [ Skill vs Skill of the players]. While keeping BIS gearing in the realm of Raiding as it has traditionally been [ and should be].

 

2- Keep the current gearing system, but provide PVP bolstering in WZs and Arenas which is sufficient to off set any gearing differences [ exactly as it had been when 5.0 first came out and had for the first few months]. This provides for the leveling of playing field in PVP and returns PVP to the skill vs skill based ideal without at all impinging on the gearing process for anyone else or either sphere of play. In effect, this makes gearing completely unnecessary for those who solely PVP and thus they do not have to worry how long the gearing process takes as it will have no effect on their PVPing.

 

All in all, if the gearing system is to remain as it is in it's current state [which as of 5.2 I see absoluetly no foundation for complaint because it is now better than it has ever been outside of PVP], the second option is probably the simplest and most effective choice as it would be easier to impliment as it had already been in use in 5.0 initially and everyone was happy with it.

 

For those who do not raid or PVP and thereby can only get the highest tiers of gear by Command Crates, they have no basis for complaint because before 5.0 if they did not raid, getting the highest tier gear was simply not an option and nor should it be. They should be happy that they have any chance at all of scoring BIS gear from a crate. They've done nothing to earn it and thusly, simply put, do not deserve it [nor need it for the content they do].

[IanArgent]

Well when you're a casual you dont get or need two sets of gear. lol Sorry you need to grind. I dont go to other mmos and demand i get the best gear. i have to grind it out.......

 

PvE grind, I'm not losing every time I step into a FP or an Uprising (or even a Story Op). In a PvP match, if there's too big a gear gap, I'm just a parsing dummy - as someone said upthread, if I don't have the gear, I'm a detriment to my team without it. So it's not just hurting me, it's hurting my teammates. If I lose every time I step into a warzone, why in the name of Lucas's long larynx am I coming back?

 

4.x PvP hit the spot there - a very mild gear grind (and even without the gear, the gear gap was nearly non-existent). I did a LOT more PvP in 4.x than I did in 3.x or 5.x, even as a pubbie on JC where the advantage is decided Imperial. But under 5.x, I'm getting smashed flat when I poke my nose in, even as an Imp. I did my 20 for Pierce on the character I was working on, and haven't really been inspired to do anything since. It's worse than GSF (which also has this problem, I'll point out, only you can't rectify the gear gap with PvE).

[-Wes-]

So, for PvPers, what would be the point to even try to get gear? If bolster wil give you max stats, that would be just BS. Bolster gives worse/less geared players opportunity to compete with those with BiS gear, not to be equal with them. If bolster would get you up to same stats as BiS geared players, what would be the reason to farm components?

 

In warzones themselves, there shouldn't be any point at all. It should be skill and ONLY skill as the deciding factor. Any player with gear in each slot should be on equal footing. If anything, ranked should be the only place where gear matters, but even then I would support a skill-only approach.

 

The gear comes in outside that environment. For example, I'll be the first to admit that I quickly changed my instance to PVE on Iokath when it became impossible for me to complete the story line in that area. Heck, even if I did have BiS gear (and I was far, far from it probably averaging 212-220), just having my best companion at less than rank 20 meant I had no chance of competing in the PVP instance (nor did I want to). If I wanted to do open world PvP or operations, then I should plan on gearing up for it.

 

Warzones are just a playground, and playgrounds aren't much fun if there are no other kids there playing.

Edited April 22, 2017 by -Wes-

[stoopicus]

Vader: "Your blind adherence to the light side won't save you now, old man."

Obi-Wan: "Luke. Use the force."

Luke: "To fight my father?"

Obi-Wan: "No. TO RUN."

Luke: "WHAT?"

Obi-Wan: "We can't, Luke. He's in full BiS."

Luke: "But why..."

Obi-Wan: "We need to go to KP, Luke - the trash mobs there will make us strong. Run chapters. Speeder through some flashpoint grind. It is the way of true heroes."

Vader: "You are such scrubs."

Boba Fett: "HI!"

Obi-Wan: "A MERC! Run, Luke! RUN!"

Edited April 22, 2017 by stoopicus

[AllisonLightning]

I think it was removed to make it easier for people to get involved in PvP. I think honestly this helped to revitalise PvP.

 

Expertise was a safeguard against people doing just this, bringing in NiM level gear and creating mass disparity. It meant that the max was 208 and the gear gap was much less pronounced between 190 (because of bolster) and 204 and much faster to get to even status. PvP is not about gear in warzones and one would argue at all- the reason the PvP servers died first was defined by this.

[jimmorrisson]

PVP and and "Last Boss" OPs groups is the most efficient way to get CXP, Command Tokens, and Unassembled Tokens. For this reason alone you have players who would not ever PVP now queue to get CXP and tokens.

 

In the case of PVP, even then it is a slow massive grind involving players who either spend the entire match complaining about other player's performance or quit at the first sign of losing (see most matches on Harbinger).

 

That is not even factoring in the current Merc and Commando issue.

Edited April 22, 2017 by jimmorrisson

[ddttor]

What's the difference between current bolster and 248 gear? 10% 15%?

Skilled PvPers are afraid that 10% more HP, 10% more damage(and negligible amount of crit/alacrity) on NiM raider's char would make him unbeatable for PvPers despite all their skill?

[americanaussie]

It has been removed from the game as of 5.0. It's been gone for the 5 n change months since 5.0 dropped.

 

There are two schools of thought on the removal of expertise.

 

1 - It's a good way to get people to do PVP without needing to worry about getting PVP gear, and in fact it did revitalize PVP, unfortunately that revitalization had bad side effects. PVEers started doing PVP not because they didn't need the PVP gear anymore and not even because they even wanted to do PVP but rather because of the good CXP you could get out of doing WZs and because WZs are the only way to earn UCs with which one can buy gear directly, even BIS gear. - It did bring an influx of players in PVP no question, but alot of them do not care about PVP, really don't want to do PVP, and don't try to even bother putting forth effort to help the team win in some cases. Which of course can be very frustraiting to genuine PVPers who love PVP and care about trying to win.

 

2 - Second school of thought is that the gear differences inherative to BIS gearing cuz to wide of gap between skill level and gear level. Most diehard PVPers believe PVP should be about skill and not gear, which, by and large with expertise gearing [save for the differences between 204 and 208 rated expertise gear] was largely the case.

While some overemphasize the differences in the effects of people of various rated gearing, some having an advantage in gear to an extent that it may have more of an impact than of greater skill, there is no question that the differences in rated gear do have an effect on performance. In truth those differences, even in the most extreme cases [say someone using 236 gear vs someone using 242/248 gear] only account for a small difference in performance, 2-4% at most, nonetheness this does create a state where gear has some baring in perfomance. PVPers believe that PVP should be solely about skill vs skill and gearing should not have any influence in perfomance [PVP gearing serving only to create a level playing field, which upon skill rests].

 

Without a seperate form of gear for PVP and PVE each mode of play has effects on the other. You cannot speed up the gearing process so that it is fast to gear out multiple characters because this has an adverse effect on raiding wherein gearing is an intricle part of WHY you raid [least it was before 5.0 and is now again since 5.2]. If gearing FULL BIS is too easy and fast, you take the incentive away for raiding. Raiders love raiding for it's own sake, don't get me wrong, but, there is a tie between the desire to attain better gear and the raiding experience that go hand in hand, very much unlike PVP.

 

In the past BIS gear has always been the sole province of raiding. [save for the disaster of the battlebag era that was much like 5.0 and didn't last long]. Before 5.0 you could not get BIS gear without end game raiding in the HM/NiM difficulty range. Which is where it really belongs.

 

You speed up the BIS gearing process you hurt PVE. You keep it slow, PVPers feel slighted because some people will be better geared than they are which can effect performance.

 

There are two options that remain that can address these issues and allow both PVEers and PVPers to play their respective realms in a manner in keeping with how those spheres are traditionally played wiithout adversly effecting the other sphere.

 

1 - Bring back a seperate PVP based gear to serve as it had in the past, to provide a level playing field which than skill than can be based on [ Skill vs Skill of the players]. While keeping BIS gearing in the realm of Raiding as it has traditionally been [ and should be].

 

2- Keep the current gearing system, but provide PVP bolstering in WZs and Arenas which is sufficient to off set any gearing differences [ exactly as it had been when 5.0 first came out and had for the first few months]. This provides for the leveling of playing field in PVP and returns PVP to the skill vs skill based ideal without at all impinging on the gearing process for anyone else or either sphere of play. In effect, this makes gearing completely unnecessary for those who solely PVP and thus they do not have to worry how long the gearing process takes as it will have no effect on their PVPing.

 

All in all, if the gearing system is to remain as it is in it's current state [which as of 5.2 I see absoluetly no foundation for complaint because it is now better than it has ever been outside of PVP], the second option is probably the simplest and most effective choice as it would be easier to impliment as it had already been in use in 5.0 initially and everyone was happy with it.

 

For those who do not raid or PVP and thereby can only get the highest tiers of gear by Command Crates, they have no basis for complaint because before 5.0 if they did not raid, getting the highest tier gear was simply not an option and nor should it be. They should be happy that they have any chance at all of scoring BIS gear from a crate. They've done nothing to earn it and thusly, simply put, do not deserve it [nor need it for the content they do].

 

Someone not long ago posted a screen shot of a toon in 208 gear having kicked major butt within the last week or two stating it's not a gear problem but a player skill problem. I think gear does help mediocre players to survive better but not necessarily kill enemies faster.