SWTOR is less than a month old, wow is 7 years old. Why do people compare?

[Abriael]

Because any product that is released and demands that people buy it is in competition with whatever is available at the time. Not with what was available seven years ago. Bioware and any company for that matter should learn from their predecessors both what was successful and what wasnt in their models.

 

If you are going to add something in your MMO that other MMOs have done you want it to be just as good if not better than it if you want to compete. A good example is the AH. It was **** when wow first came out, but after 7 years its very functional and works amazingly. SwTORs AH function is garbage and just as bad if not worse than wows was 7 years ago. That isnt acceptable.

 

Sure WoW had a lot of server side problems and crashes when it came out (which Blizzard gave free game time out to apologize for btw) but the combat system had no delays. The combat system worked flawlessly. As of right now its one of SWTORS biggest failures. This delay is killing gameplay.

 

This is a perfect example of the use of massive hyperbole to prove false points.

 

The AH is perfectly functional. I had no problem finding any product I wanted or selling my products. Is it optimal? No. "garbage" or "worse than wow's t launch" or even "unacceptable"? Please. Let's be real.

 

People can play without any real problem, so the gameplay is quite evidently not "killed". Also, WoW had plenty delays and lag at launch, on top of a massive amount of bugs in comparison to which SWTOR is very, very polished.

 

Ah, writing in bold and a different color doesn't make your points more solid.

[Shamiez]

because it had 7 years to do research and development. A game released after it, should have an idea based on whats already done of what should be included an a next gen mmo.

 

As it stands, swtor is like WoW when it launched. Not how WoW is today. Which is the problem.

 

Ah. I agree and disagree. SWTOR is competing with WoW today, but compare the two and how much, let's say, end game they have is just silly. You can't put out 8 WZs at launch, it's already bad enough with all these pugs that have no idea what they're doing. Imagine if there were more than three, you would have 0% chance against a premade for months, until everyone figured out all the WZs and how to best play them. Another thing, WoW has gone 6 months without a new Raid multiple times. At least this game is pushing out new content right off the bat. If you're thinking about getting this game and playing WoW, perhaps you should be looking at how much potential this game has along with what is already has to offer? And you obviously didn't play the launch of WoW based on your last statement.

[Biscuitninja]

And in fact I explained why it's *illogical* to compare them in the way we see here, and fairly ignorant.

 

Explain how its illogical or ignorant. This game is following the most popular MMO of all time and could have used to learn a few things. The idea that WoW was out for 7 years or whatever and had time to improve is meaningless. Those 7 years improved the game sure. But other game designers SHOULD have learned the same lessons. There is absolutely no reason NOT to compare the two. Learn from the mistakes of others.

[Abriael]

It's not illogical at all. Awould it be illogical to comparing WoW to EVE? Yes, they very different games, TOR is a similar game to WoW, you can argue its not all you like but it clearly is. WoW has established(and at times invented) certain features and mechanics that TOR and other games have copied. They are clearly catering to the same customer base, end of story.

 

EVE and WoW have both enough development time to add features and polish out problems past release, but if you think they're competing for the same customerbase, you're dreaming. EVE has a very niche target, made mostly of hardcore PvPers and lovers of sandbox games, while WoW has a completely different target userbase.

 

It's completely illogical and ignorant to compare the features of a game that had a total of over 10 years in development with one that had much less. It's that simple. Time and resources are finite, no matter how you look at it.

[DThoran]

First, (to me) the socialization aspects of earlier wow dominated. (pre global lfg) In early wow you actually got to know people on your server, in your area, and I made friendships that crossed over into life, and have remained to this day. The lfg tool took that need for personalization away, and (to me) it ruined a very, very critical aspect of any mmo, socialization. Instead you got groups of random noobs and "go,go,go" idjits that ruined the grouping experience. They didn't have to be concerned about you or your needs, only their own, and it created a generation of over entitled, lazy, basically rude, ignorant players. I for one hope that feature NEVER sees the light of day in swtor, but majority will rule.

 

(one thing I do love about Bioware is they always focused on their vision of what the game should be, and never folded to pressure running after the dollar, and true fans of Bioware appreciate that)

 

Secondly, the car analogy people are using is fatally flawed. I really don't have the time or inclination to point out why it would get crushed in any logical debate, but the smart people (who aren't using it) already know that. The easiest is that cars (and what people want in their car) are vastly different, yet sharing some basic attributes.

 

For example, I own a 1967 Ford Falcon Sport Coupe. Beauty of a car that I have spent years and years, and a considerable amount of money getting exactly the way I want it. Now, take said car and compare it to the newest 2011 model Ford 'X'. To me, yes the newer ford has some "improvements" that are really nice, (like airbags, crumple zones, heated seats, ect, ect) however you could not give me 2 of them to trade for my 67. In no way can you ever convince me that x feature or y feature that the new car has somehow makes it inherently "better" or more to be desired than my 44 year old car. This is one basic reason the car argument or comparison doesn't work. Some people just will not like, or care about some of the same things you think a car "must" have in order to be called a car. Just like some people will never think every mmo has to have x,y feature to be a popular or successful mmo.

 

If you can't see simple logic now I know you are arguing simply to argue. Again, Bioware devs DO READ THE FORUMS, and will be watching our suggestions. Why not give them detailed bug reports and politely explain wished for features? More apt to get them to see your point if you are not constantly bashing a game they spent years of their lives crafting for YOU.

[Swirly]

People compare because they want SWTOR to be the best game it can be, and SWTOR is competing against 2011 WoW, not 2004 Wow.

 

^ at least some people get it.

 

ToR is competing with one of the most successful MMOs ever made. That isn't going to be easy and Bioware need to be ready for that or they'll just fade away like the rest. People want something to come along and really compete with WoW but if devs just slack off they'll just be another lost game in the masses of fail, kind of like how Aion, Warhammer, and most of all FFXIV (biggest joke yet.)

 

You never hear of any of those games anymore and I don't want that for ToR but if this is how they sail their ship then I see Limsa Lominsa just ahead.

[Abriael]

Explain how its illogical or ignorant. This game is following the most popular MMO of all time and could have used to learn a few things. The idea that WoW was out for 7 years or whatever and had time to improve is meaningless. Those 7 years improved the game sure. But other game designers SHOULD have learned the same lessons. There is absolutely no reason NOT to compare the two. Learn from the mistakes of others.

 

If game developers developed only on what they learn from previous games, we'd be still playing clones of pong and pacman.

 

You're basically saying that innovation in MMORPGs shouldn't exist, which is, admittedly, perfectly fitting to a wow player, since you guys swallowed the same re-heated brooth (made from the brooth Blizzard copied and re-headed from previous games, given that they introduced absolutely nothing new to the market) for years, and continue to do so.

[Tectonics]

because it had 7 years to do research and development. A game released after it, should have an idea based on whats already done of what should be included an a next gen mmo.

 

As it stands, swtor is like WoW when it launched. Not how WoW is today. Which is the problem.

 

to be honest if any game is based off WoW today, then its doomed to fail, so Bioware have that one right, if they really wanted to compare with WoW they would compare it to after the burning crusade, that was wow's peak.

 

but if it came down to a choice between comparing SWTOR to wow launch and wow present day, go with wow launch, game was better then than it is now

[Biscuitninja]

If game developers developed only on what they learn from previous games, we'd be still playing clones of pong and pacman.

 

You're basically saying that innovation in MMORPGs shouldn't exist, which is, admittedly, perfectly fitting to a wow player, since you guys swallowed the same re-heated brooth (made from the brooth Blizzard copied and re-headed from previous games, given that they introduced absolutely nothing new to the market) for years, and continue to do so.

 

No...You are generalizing.

 

The idea that you learn from others mistakes does not disallow you to innovate. What it DOES do is cause you to not make the same mistakes again. Doesn't mean this game has to be exactly like wow. Innovation can happen without the expense of previous failures.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Biscuitninja

[Sajek]

Its extremely natural to compare to the competition. Welcome to the world of business.

 

You can perhaps accept bugs here and there but the core product has to be better than the competition.

 

So far I like SWTOR but there are several very critical things to work on and its my sincerest hope they will be resolved. If I'm to belt out a curse word at my monitor, I want it to be at myself because I played badly or maybe other people are playing badly. Not because of unresponsive gameplay or an auction house that has a horrible search function.

 

To put a real life example, if you were to buy a car.

Car A is fast, reliable, comfortable and costs $30,000 and has been on the market 7 years.

Car B is fast (but not as fast), reliable (but not as reliable) and comfortable (but the seats are made out of wood) and costs also $30,000 and just hit the market.

 

I wouldn't accept the excuse of car dealer B that my car will be awesome after I bring it in for service every month for the next 6 months.

 

I'll just buy Car A....that's why BW needs to move on this fast. Adding new endgame content is insanely premature and imo is not good strategy. Its impressive and sortof exciting but that will not (not at the stage) bring more players in or retain existing players. The lvl50 playerbase right now is tiny (I am one, pretty lonely at the top atm).

 

Not saying I'm ready to quit the game, I have some level of patience but if these critical issues aren't solved in a timely fashion, they'll grow old hella fast I think.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sajek

[Abriael]

No...You are generalizing.

 

The idea that you learn from others mistakes does not disallow you to innovate. What it DOES do is cause you to not make the same mistakes again. Doesn't mean this game has to be exactly like wow. Innovation can happen without the expense of previous failures.

 

What mistake by blizzard should have Bioware learned from, pray tell?

 

Introducing at launch ALL the features of a MMORPG that had several years of post-launch developement DOES prevent innovation, simply because (I know, for some it's such a difficult concept to understand) development resources, time and personnel are finite.

 

The fact that something works from wow doesn't mean every other developer needs to or should introduce that something in it's game without focusing on something else or looking for different solutions.

[Abriael]

Its extremely natural to compare to the competition. Welcome to the world of business.

 

You can perhaps accept bugs here and there but the core product has to be better than the competition.

 

And it is. By far. Quality and Quantity are different scales, but this isn't really the issue, as "better", is simply a matter of taste.

 

To put a real life example, if you were to buy a car.

Car A is fast, reliable, comfortable and costs $30,000 and has been on the market 7 years.

Car B is fast (but not as fast), reliable (but not as reliable) and comfortable (but the seats are made out of wood) and costs also $30,000 and just hit the market.

 

Funny how the people that advocate that the comparison isn't illogical and ignorant can't prove that false point without resorting to an apple to oranges comparison with markets that have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPGs.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Abriael

[Forsbacka]

If game developers developed only on what they learn from previous games, we'd be still playing clones of pong and pacman.

 

You're basically saying that innovation in MMORPGs shouldn't exist, which is, admittedly, perfectly fitting to a wow player, since you guys swallowed the same re-heated brooth (made from the brooth Blizzard copied and re-headed from previous games, given that they introduced absolutely nothing new to the market) for years, and continue to do so.

 

 

 

Leaving needed things from the game aint innovative, or doing worse gameplay than one game had at 2004.

[Abriael]

Leaving needed things from the game aint innovative, or doing worse gameplay than one game had at 2004.

 

"needed"? Who decides what is "needed" and what not? You?

 

I don't see a single feature missing in the game that I would consider anywhere near needed. All the basic functions are there. What you're labeling as "needed" are just accessorial convenience functions to which another game got you used to, but that doesn't make them necessary.

 

Also "worse gameplay" according to whom? You may want to take out your wow-tinted glasses, my friend.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Abriael

[Forsbacka]

And it is. By far. Quality and Quantity are different scales, but this isn't really the issue, as "better", is simply a matter of taste.

 

 

 

Funny how the people that advocate that the comparison isn't illogical and ignorant can't prove that false point without resorting to an apple to oranges comparison with markets that have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPGs.

 

Quality is worse than on WoW at launch. They had solid gameplay and no action delay unlike this game where its worse than in any mmorpg.

[Sajek]

And it is. By far. Quality and Quantity are different scales.

 

 

 

Funny how the people that advocate that the comparison isn't illogical and ignorant can't prove that false point without resorting to an apple to oranges comparison with markets that have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPGs.

 

Its a comparison of products...which is what SWTOR vs. WoW is. Whether its a car, a TV or whatever else, the better product, given an equal price wins. We may debate it but we don't yet know who will win. WoW has won vs. many competitors so far and BW is certainly extremely aware of it.

 

I'm tired of WoW too but I concede that it has some features that are superior especially the gameplay at this stage which to me, is the most important part of gaming. SWTOR isn't there which is a huge concern at this point.

[Abriael]

Quality is worse than on WoW at launch. They had solid gameplay and no action delay unlike this game where its worse than in any mmorpg.

 

You're talking like your opinion was fact. Too bad it isn't.

 

If you think delay is "worse than any mmorpg" you obviously know nothing on this market. Maybe you should go back to wow, since quite evidently your viewpoint is too restricted to be able to accept anything different.

 

Which is typical of wow players, mind you.

[Forsbacka]

"needed"? Who decides what is "needed" and what not? You?

 

I don't see a single feature missing in the game that I would consider anywhere near needed. All the basic functions are there. What you're labeling as "needed" are just accessorial convenience functions to which another game got you used to, but that doesn't make them necessary.

 

Also "worse gameplay" according to whom? You may want to take out your wow-tinted glasses, my friend.

 

Just cause you dont see it doesnt mean that this gam is missing lots of things and gameplay+action delay prevents this game to have any serious PVE or PVP endgame.

AH is worse than in WOW 7 years ago, UI looks like WOWs basic UI long time ago, graphics aint much better, world seems dead, downgrading from open world to instancd one etc. All isssues has been discussed lots on various threads and untill they fix em, wouldnt talk about better quality over quantity against WOW 2011, not even 2004.

[Forsbacka]

You're talking like your opinion was fact. Too bad it isn't.

 

If you think delay is "worse than any mmorpg" you obviously know nothing on this market. Maybe you should go back to wow, since quite evidently your viewpoint is too restricted to be able to accept anything different.

 

Which is typical of wow players, mind you.

 

 

Soory, worse than any other MMORPG since WOW. Or any other game of any genre since 1995.

[MBirdy]

Quality is worse than on WoW at launch. They had solid gameplay and no action delay unlike this game where its worse than in any mmorpg.

 

Whatever you say mate... all my moves work perfectly.... try getting better internet, or a computer that was made after 2000.

 

All the "100s of bug complaints" , all the "minor missing features that I cant live without" complaints are just sad.

 

People are right to say we should be comparing SWTOR to Catacalysm ... Cata had more fun quests but with no context, questing in SWTOR consists of good context ... but the same old Grind 30x "bonus" mobs and plant items... kill a boss... boring... but quite enjoyable due to context.... they are polar opposites in this department..... im hopeing SWTOR can make its newer planets' quests as fun as CATA ... then it will be leagues ahead of WoW in that department.

 

Same is said for the rest, those of you saying this game is inferior ... and that we shouldnt take 7 years into account... are any of you actual software developers let alone anything else???

 

You realize every new engine, every new designed game regaurdless of "successful blue-prints" still takes years of feedback and refinement?

 

Absolutely pathetic.... this game IS high quality ... its just not bloody 100% as refined as WoW.... but it will be. like someone else said, WHY ARE YOU EVEN HERE IF YOU LOVE WOW SO MUCH ... oh right? because despite good gameplay and endgame ... YOUR BORED OF THE SAME TIRED GAME. - well instead of craving the same thing with lightsabres go play a different genre, you clearly dont want this one anymore.

[Abriael]

Its a comparison of products...which is what SWTOR vs. WoW is. Whether its a car, a TV or whatever else, the better product, given an equal price wins. We may debate it but we don't yet know who will win. WoW has won vs. many competitors so far and BW is certainly extremely aware of it.

 

Apples and oranges are products. It doesn't make them comparable.

 

Comparing completely different markets is a logical fallacy, as you're assuming similar results with completely different premises. The MMORPG market is completely unique. It has completely different inner workings and development cycles as opposed to any other market.

 

Besides, it gets even more illogical when the comparison is made only on what SWTOR doesn't have, while what WoW doesn't have is ignored.

 

It shows a lot on how logical this comparison is, and the answer is "completely illogical".

 

If you expect a MMORPG at launch to have all the feature of a game with several years more in development, you have no touch with reality. Sorry.

[Blizark]

I don't really care if SWTOR is better than WoW was 7 years ago. I really don't care if SWTOR will be a great game 7 years from now. What I care is how SWTOR, today, compares to its competition.

[Abriael]

Soory, worse than any other MMORPG since WOW. Or any other game of any genre since 1995.

 

Did you play them all?

 

Quite obviously you didn't. Ooops, what is this crahsing sound I hear? Must be your little card castle that has just collapsed.

[msales]

EVE and WoW have both enough development time to add features and polish out problems past release, but if you think they're competing for the same customerbase, you're dreaming. EVE has a very niche target, made mostly of hardcore PvPers and lovers of sandbox games, while WoW has a completely different target userbase.

 

It's completely illogical and ignorant to compare the features of a game that had a total of over 10 years in development with one that had much less. It's that simple. Time and resources are finite, no matter how you look at it.

 

At what point did I suggest that WoW and EVE are competing for the same customers? I used EVE as an example of a game that it *would* be silly to compare to WoW as they are very different products. You are attempting to argue *for* a point that I made. On the subject of WoW Vs TOR. The point of them competing for the same customer stands no matter how many years WoW has had to develop. That aside TOR is entering the arena at a much later date and should have learnt from what WoW and other MMOs are currently doing. You can call me illogical and ignorant all you like but it’s not going to make it true, I would say however you are being more than a little naive.

 

For the record I’m really enjoying TOR. I just think it’s missing a lot of features that should have made it into launch considering the development time.

[Swirly]

I don't really care if SWTOR is better than WoW was 7 years ago. I really don't care if SWTOR will be a great game 7 years from now. What I care is how SWTOR, today, compares to its competition.

 

 

Another 1 in 1000 who understands the struggle that so few seem to grasp.

 

(I am not being sarcastic and agree with you)