SithKoriandr Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 It just dawned on me. They're both traitors, but only Quinn is really called a traitor, when in fact, it was Kaliyo who betrays you and Quinn who stayed loyal to his original boss. He never betrays you. He was a spy. He was never loyal to you to betray you. But he gets all the hate! Sent in by Baras to spy on you and deliver you to your death was his job, even if he fell in love with you. Quinn can be redeemed! He's obviously dedicated to his job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyFlynn Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 The answer to this is simple; Kaliyo has a vajayjay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 The answer to this is simple; Kaliyo has a vajayjay. What I figure as well, but that still leaves Quinn never betraying you, since he was loyal to Baras, not the Warrior, until after the moment that his true mission comes to light and he awaits his death...which of course...the warrior doesn't give him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelindis Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I honestly don't think the different views on Quinn and Kaliyo's betrayals are because she's female and he's male. It's more because loyalty is presented as something extremely important to Quinn, whereas Kaliyo is shown from the start to be fickle. Also, Quinn has a lot of respect for authority and the structure of command, whereas Kaliyo has precisely none. When Quinn reveals that Baras was his master all along, it was also part of an elaborate plan, whereas Kaliyo doesn't even actually intend to betray you - she just doesn't take Imperial secrets seriously enough to not try to game the system and make a bit of profit (and, if I recall correctly, she sides with the agent if the anarchist group pushes her to pick sides). They are opposites in almost every way I can imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozsimano Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) I think Quinn is the most borring character of all time! So whan i can't kill him for his treachery--->that was the worst thing in my year Edited February 28, 2017 by rozsimano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Quinn's betrayal was incredibly different to Kaliyo's, out of the two only Quinn actually tries to ambush and kill the player-character, even though he fails that fact doesn't change. Kaliyo was selling imperial secrets, not choosing loyalty over two people (we already know by this stage that this is exactly the type of person she is, she wasn't hiding anything and wasn't loyal to the Empire, they just paid her. Quinn always chose Baras whilst Kaliyo chose the Agent/player character. This is the main difference in my opinion, and why I don't class both as anywhere near the same sort of situation. I like both characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueShiftRecall Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 For me I'd be surprised if the majority even completed Kaliyo entire companion story to get to the point at the end, from what I remember you have to do quite a lot of running around between planets for her to progress her converstaions. With Quinn it happens in your story so every SW has to go through and experience it with Kaliyo unless you do her entire arc you don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) I think character class and force alignment plays into this somewhat. The main difference for me was that Quinn is a companion for my dark side Sith Warrior. It's out of character for my Sith Warrior to tolerate betrayals, so I would have had the SW force choke Quinn to death if that were an option at the big reveal, even though I like Quinn as a character. In contrast Kaliyo was a companion for a character who isn't force sensitive, and as such not bound by dark side urges. Edited February 28, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limariko Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 The answer to this is simple; Kaliyo has a vajayjay. I'd definitely say that's a strong contributing factor. Another aspect of it is from what I've seen from comments in the assorted companion related threads is that there's a significant amount of acceptance for the wildcard/demented female characters that I don't see as happening if the characters were male such as with Kaliyo or DS Jaesa and how many that begged for a romanceable Vaylin. Anyone want to tell me I'm wrong, I'd really love to hear their reason on that because when I've mentioned it elsewhere, I don't really get an answer other than silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I'd definitely say that's a strong contributing factor. Another aspect of it is from what I've seen from comments in the assorted companion related threads is that there's a significant amount of acceptance for the wildcard/demented female characters that I don't see as happening if the characters were male such as with Kaliyo or DS Jaesa and how many that begged for a romanceable Vaylin. Anyone want to tell me I'm wrong, I'd really love to hear their reason on that because when I've mentioned it elsewhere, I don't really get an answer other than silence. See the above. My wanting to kill Quinn but spare Kaliyo had to do with what was in character for my characters, not Quinn or Kaliyo's anatomy. Just to be clear, I do think that there should have been an option to kill both of those characters after their betrayals. I just wouldn't have taken that option with the Agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limariko Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 See the above. My wanting to kill Quinn but spare Kaliyo had to do with what was in character for my characters, not Quinn or Kaliyo's anatomy. Just to be clear, I do think that there should have been an option to kill both of those characters after their betrayals. I just wouldn't have taken that option with the Agent. Interesting to see different Agent perspectives since with my Agents, they never wanted Kaliyo in the first place and seriously wondered what Keeper was smoking to even think it was a good idea to have such an 'in your face' type in an aspect of the field where guile, discretion and subterfuge were important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael_diSanto Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I've given this one a lot of thought as well, because I don't mind admitting that I lean towards the "Kill Quinn and forgive Kaliyo" thing, and I myself have wondered - is it simply because Kaliyo is female? Am I really that gender-biased? It's a worrying thought, actually. Or alternatively - Am I letting my personal feelings about the NPC cloud what my character's feelings are? That's equally as worrying. As a roleplayer, I should be able to keep my own opinions out of it. I think that Quinn's betrayal is more personal, because it's literally against the Warrior themselves. Also, the Warrior has trusted Quinn with their life up until this point - (probably quite literally, due to Quinn being the only healer available), and then to have that character actively try to kill the Warrior is most definitely a betrayal, regardless of how you want to spin it. Kaliyo's selling secrets. She's not actively trying to get the Agent killed. They really are completely different situations. And when forced to choose, Kaliyo /chooses/ the Agent. Quinn chooses Baras. That automatically makes him my Warrior's enemy. Regardless, I also agree that both characters should have had a death option. Just like I feel Bounty Hunters should have been allowed to kill both Skadge and Gault. Especially Gault. (I hate Gault, LOL. Maybe even more than I hate Quinn) But with Jack, Akaavi and Kaliyo, BioWare are definitely pushing my hot-aggressive-bald-chicks button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avashnea Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I think Quinn is the most borring character of all time! So whan i can't kill him for his treachery--->that was the worst thing in my year No, you have Quinn mixed up with Vette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damask_Rose Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Quinn's betrayal was incredibly different to Kaliyo's, out of the two only Quinn actually tries to ambush and kill the player-character, even though he fails that fact doesn't change. Kaliyo was selling imperial secrets, not choosing loyalty over two people (we already know by this stage that this is exactly the type of person she is, she wasn't hiding anything and wasn't loyal to the Empire, they just paid her. Quinn always chose Baras whilst Kaliyo chose the Agent/player character. This is the main difference in my opinion, and why I don't class both as anywhere near the same sort of situation. I like both characters. It looked to me like Kaliyo deliberately lured the agent into an ambush by her business partner. She only balked when it became clear that his plans for the agent involved organ harvesting. What she thought Wheezer was going to do to the agent is anyone's guess. Her greed and disregard for the agent nearly got him killed and she showed zero regret. She was using the agent as a cash cow and nothing more. I find that much worse than Quinn choosing his loyalty to the Empire over his loyalty to the warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 It looked to me like Kaliyo deliberately lured the agent into an ambush by her business partner. She only balked when it became clear that his plans for the agent involved organ harvesting. What she thought Wheezer was going to do to the agent is anyone's guess. Her greed and disregard for the agent nearly got him killed and she showed zero regret. She was using the agent as a cash cow and nothing more. I find that much worse than Quinn choosing his loyalty to the Empire over his loyalty to the warrior. He was also a spy for Baras. Where as, Kaliyo was not sent to spy on the Agent. Quinn stayed loyal to who he was a spy for. Kaliyo betrayed someone who was supposed to be a friend. That's why I don't feel he was a traitor. He was loyal to Baras from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodesu Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) It looked to me like Kaliyo deliberately lured the agent into an ambush by her business partner. She only balked when it became clear that his plans for the agent involved organ harvesting. What she thought Wheezer was going to do to the agent is anyone's guess. Her greed and disregard for the agent nearly got him killed and she showed zero regret. She was using the agent as a cash cow and nothing more. I find that much worse than Quinn choosing his loyalty to the Empire over his loyalty to the warrior. hmm I saw that scene very differently, from her dialogue "don't make me choose" etc and the rest, It came across to me as Kaliyo had no idea that her contact was wanting to kill the agent, harvest, ambush whatever, so she chose to stick with the agent in the end. That whole part of the scene screamed that to me, but we all have different interpretations. Edited March 2, 2017 by Asmodesu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagaimee Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 hmm I saw that scene very differently, from her dialogue "don't make me choose" etc and the rest, It came across to me as Kaliyo had no idea that her contact was wanting to kill the agent, harvest, ambush whatever, so she chose to stick with the agent in the end. That whole part of the scene screamed that to me, but we all have different interpretations. It's been a while since I've seen that scene (about to go through it again on another agent), but I thought Kaliyo only balked at killing the agent because she realized, agent dead = no more Intelligence secrets to sell. She loses her only/most reliable source of information. ...then again, maybe I was interpreting it wrong?? Like I said, it's been...yeesh, years, since I've gone through that scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefla Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Male characters will always get a disproportionate amount of hate unless: 1) They are always agreeable to what you do and 2) They are funny like Varric or the original HK or 3) They are a BAMF though not a character who would be competition for the player romantically (not a human looking, attractive male character) ex: Wrex Female characters will generally get a pass, especially if they're hot and romanceable. Think about Mass Effect, Kaidan gets more hate than Morinth (who murders people including her own mom and kills male Shepard through voodoo sex if you let her). Kaliyo doesn't have hair which is a no-no in this situation but she is funny so it balances out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grania Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) Quinn is in an impossible situation. The way I see it, I failed him by taking no steps to protect him, myself or the rest of my crew from what was an easily predictable betrayal. That's all Baras has you do - offing his enemies and his loyal agents. Can't very well expect a lowly imp like Quinn (and I say that with utmost affection) to play sith games and come through it unscathed.. Kaliyo on the other hand, she pulled this off all on her own, no one was forcing her to make those deals. And while one of my agents begrudgingly made peace with her eventually, (it took 5 years in carbonite to forgive her) neither of my agents wanted her around from the start. Keeper is partially to blame for forcing her on me to begin with. Edited March 2, 2017 by grania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damask_Rose Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Quinn is in an impossible situation. The way I see it, I failed him by taking no steps to protect him, myself or the rest of my crew from what was an easily predictable betrayal. That's all Baras has you do - offing his enemies and his loyal agents. Can't very well expect a lowly imp like Quinn (and I say that with utmost affection) to play sith games and come through it unscathed.. Kaliyo on the other hand, she pulled this off all on her own, no one was forcing her to make those deals. And while one of my agents begrudgingly made peace with her eventually, (it took 5 years in carbonite to forgive her) neither of my agents wanted her around from the start. Keeper is partially to blame for forcing her on me to begin with. She had to have had dirt on keeper. No way he wouldn't have let me kill her on Hutta otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Quinn is in an impossible situation. The way I see it, I failed him by taking no steps to protect him, myself or the rest of my crew from what was an easily predictable betrayal. That's all Baras has you do - offing his enemies and his loyal agents. Can't very well expect a lowly imp like Quinn (and I say that with utmost affection) to play sith games and come through it unscathed.. Kaliyo on the other hand, she pulled this off all on her own, no one was forcing her to make those deals. And while one of my agents begrudgingly made peace with her eventually, (it took 5 years in carbonite to forgive her) neither of my agents wanted her around from the start. Keeper is partially to blame for forcing her on me to begin with. That's my point on Quinn not being a traitor. Spies aren't traitors. They're just loyal to someone else. Quinn would have been a traitor if he started out with the Warrior and then sided with Baras. However, he was working with Baras since the beginning. Finn (Force Awakens) is a traitor, because he left his group to join the enemy. Elara is a traitor, because she did the same. Left the side she started on to go to the other. Even if both were in the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael_diSanto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 That's my point on Quinn not being a traitor. Spies aren't traitors. They're just loyal to someone else. Quinn would have been a traitor if he started out with the Warrior and then sided with Baras. However, he was working with Baras since the beginning. Finn (Force Awakens) is a traitor, because he left his group to join the enemy. Elara is a traitor, because she did the same. Left the side she started on to go to the other. Even if both were in the right. I would agree that Quinn's not a traitor. I would argue that it's also irrelevant. Whether he fits the dictionary definition of a traitor or not, he still actively tried to have my Warrior killed. That, right there, makes him the enemy. Personally, I still think it counts as a betrayal, if not a traitorous one. Spies may not be traitors, but generally speaking they're all aware of what happens if they're caught. When push came to shove, Quinn took up arms against the player. Kaliyo has never done that. Not once. For my darksided characters, fighting said character is usually a death sentence, whether the death happens mechanically or in a cutscene after the fight, it makes no difference. You raise arms against my DS Warrior, you've signed your own death warrant.. Forgiving Quin and bringing him into the fold after the event is akin to recruiting Arcann at the end of KoTET (Both of which my Light Sided Warrior did, no hesitation. My DS Warrior? Not so much. Arcann was the enemy, and he kills his enemies, without hesitation, mercy or regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaneth Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I sooo agree with needing the option to kill Quinn. My female DS warrior should have been able to crush him. And I'm sorry but when he took a knee in the spaceport and vowed to serve me his Baras loyalty should have been severed so going back to Baras meant he broke an oath of loyalty making him a traitor. Plus breaking my heart in the process. I would NEVER have let him leave that room alive nor would I have wasted a second to look back at the body. I would easily be willing to lose a companion completely to have that choice. Kaliyo never tried to kill the agent and she defends the agent when push comes to shove. Abrasive yes but she is always true to her nature and doesn't hesitate to tell the Agent that when confronted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casirabit Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) I killed Kaliyo on my agent when I had the chance. She was always backstabbing. As far as Quinn I haven't decided yet but I for one didn't sleep with him when he betrayed me. I was romancing him before the betrayal but after the betrayal nope, no more romance. I don't know about everyone else, I cannot romance someone that tries to have me killed. Just something in me refuses to continue a romance like that. As far as Kaliyo she was a royal pain from the beginning, thinking it was okay to betray my agent. Sure she may have defended the agent when it came to push or shove but she is the one that put herself in that position. When I gave her the order in the expansion and she disobey me then that was the last straw. Note: At least in the smugglers story the Senator and Darmas were able to be killed when you found out they were spies and for that I am forever thankful for! Edited March 16, 2017 by casirabit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 I sooo agree with needing the option to kill Quinn. My female DS warrior should have been able to crush him. And I'm sorry but when he took a knee in the spaceport and vowed to serve me his Baras loyalty should have been severed so going back to Baras meant he broke an oath of loyalty making him a traitor. Plus breaking my heart in the process. I would NEVER have let him leave that room alive nor would I have wasted a second to look back at the body. I would easily be willing to lose a companion completely to have that choice. Kaliyo never tried to kill the agent and she defends the agent when push comes to shove. Abrasive yes but she is always true to her nature and doesn't hesitate to tell the Agent that when confronted. Him taking that oath to you, was part of his job as Baras' spy. Basically it was akin to having his fingers crossed behind his back Spies do what they're told to do (Baras, a Darth of the Sith Empire), that's part of the job. Yes, that includes betraying people, even the ones they get close to, which is sometimes also part of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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