Galactic Command - Tier 4 and More

[FerkWork]

Remove Blue and Green garbage. Ain't nobody got time for that. When I have 240 Mods and Enhancmenets the only thing I'm looking for is Set bonuses. 230 Set bonus vs 240 no set bonus is 300 DPS extra with set bonus. At 224 it's about 200 DPS. Edited February 28, 2017 by FerkWork

[Resputin]

They really need to implement some legacy benefits to GC to encourage gearing alts. A lot of people don't want to focus on one character and GC does make it kind of prohibitive not to do so.

 

Yes that would help current players alreadyin in command ranks. Still hurts new comers as they cant do command rank while leveling. So when they get to lvl 70 and see a 400,500,600 comand rank ahead of them depending on when they join, they might just quit.

[Eli_Porter]

They really need to implement some legacy benefits to GC to encourage gearing alts. A lot of people don't want to focus on one character and GC does make it kind of prohibitive not to do so.

 

When they make Unassembled Components legacy, you could play your alts while gaining UC's+CXP tokens for your main since a lot of the rewards are in weekly/daily missions.

[Sargrith]

To some level I agree it hasn't worked, especially for players like me who don't PVP or do operations that much. But I still believe you get the furthest with constructive criticism, rather than yelling to the devs saying "either you remove this or you WILL loose your entire player base". The information they need to change the system is given by players who critisize and reports on what is wrong, rather than saying they have to remove a game wide implementation right away. Which I suspect will not be possible, without changing the way the game works even further, because of what changes GC did bring along.

 

 

What's the point of giving constructive criticism? Its been done to death and ignored to death.

 

People told them the change needed was in the gear dropped, that getting green items was a downer and disappointing. Which in turn worked to make them disinterested in even trying. People told them that increasing the rate we got crates without fixing what was in the crates was a bad idea, it would only end up with people getting more frustrated. They did it anyway.

 

Thing is people have said putting greens in the crates was a problem from the very get go, and still they did it, and still they are leaving them there.

 

People have asked for ways to deal with getting three belts but no chest, and they have done nothing there except make you need to PvP to go for specific pieces. Sure you can hit ops but there is only a small chance you will get what you want since only the last boss drops guaranteed loot, the rest have a really low chance to and most often don't.

 

People have asked for help with alts since the game just previously had an event where making alts was the entire point. And still nothing useful has been done.

 

Lots of suggestions, specific problems, and request have been made. All ignored. It like this GC system removes from you the desire to continue to do it. So you don't you complain and demand better because doing any more has been shown so many times to be useless.

 

Remove GC, Remove RNG, then we can get back to content issues.

[Andryah]

This makes no sense to me. There is not much you can do once hitting level 70 that won't give some CXP, even if its a paltry amount.

 

Let me clarify for you then...... boycott GC = do nothing to deliberately chase Cxp and GC levels (which frankly is what a lot of players ARE doing.. chasing Cxp). Got it now?

 

Sure.. we all get some Cxp just playing the game at 70. But deliberately chasing it because you believe it is the only way to progress your gear is just going to drive players to insanity... as exemplified by so many people getting so burned out on the exercise so quickly.

[Andryah]

What's the point of giving constructive criticism? Its been done to death and ignored to death.

 

What is the point in giving destructive and hyperbolic criticism? That TOO has been done to death around here and it goes nowhere.

[Andryah]

Tweak the contents of the crates and the drop rates, and i'll be set.

 

This is definitely needed. But what is needed most is a solid RNG mitigation method... because the double grinding for secondary tokens from OPs and PvP to go with Command Tokens IS NOT the right method.

 

They put Command Tokens in, they put in a vendor..... but they also layered in another level of tokens required to use the vendor. They need to just abort the secondary token methods.. and just let players use the Command Tokens on the vendor. THAT would actually give players a somewhat familiar method to work for gear (ie: essentially the same as a faction grind).

 

GC clearly is not going to be removed. It's here to stay... as exemplified by them adding to it, not taking away with this coming patch. Nothing wrong with the concept at all in my view... it's just that they implemented it very poorly.

 

MMO players want to be able to calculate the effort and time required to gain what they seek. GC, as it stands, does not provide this..... so it fails with almost all players because it results in completely unpredictable progress toward player goals.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Andryah

[GalacticKegger]

What's the point of giving constructive criticism? Its been done to death and ignored to death.

 

People told them the change needed was in the gear dropped, that getting green items was a downer and disappointing. Which in turn worked to make them disinterested in even trying. People told them that increasing the rate we got crates without fixing what was in the crates was a bad idea, it would only end up with people getting more frustrated. They did it anyway.

 

Thing is people have said putting greens in the crates was a problem from the very get go, and still they did it, and still they are leaving them there.

 

People have asked for ways to deal with getting three belts but no chest, and they have done nothing there except make you need to PvP to go for specific pieces. Sure you can hit ops but there is only a small chance you will get what you want since only the last boss drops guaranteed loot, the rest have a really low chance to and most often don't.

 

People have asked for help with alts since the game just previously had an event where making alts was the entire point. And still nothing useful has been done.

 

Lots of suggestions, specific problems, and request have been made. All ignored. It like this GC system removes from you the desire to continue to do it. So you don't you complain and demand better because doing any more has been shown so many times to be useless.

 

Remove GC, Remove RNG, then we can get back to content issues.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. The truth is simple and twofold:

1. BWA is stuck in a sunk cost fallacy rinse & repeat cycle, and
   
2. Crates. Period. Crates never should have happened. They should have stayed in the Cartel Market.
   

 

6.0 will be this game's defining moment imho. If with 6.0 GC isn't relegated to a single player RPG achievement system where it belongs, and the game's pre-Fallen Empire progression and loot systems brought back full time, then I expect that true Star Wars MMORPG enthusiasts will give Bioware a black eye they may never recover from.

Edited February 28, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[stoopicus]

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. The truth is simple and twofold:

1. BWA is stuck in a sunk cost fallacy rinse & repeat cycle, and
   
2. Crates. Period. Crates never should have happened. They should have stayed in the Cartel Market.
   

 

6.0 will be this game's defining moment imho. If with 6.0 GC isn't relegated to a single player RPG achievement system where it belongs, and the game's pre-Fallen Empire progression and loot systems brought back full time, then I expect that true Star Wars MMORPG enthusiasts will give Bioware a black eye they may never recover from.

 

I'm pretty convinced the fallacy of sunk costs assessment is spot on. They keep doubling down on a system that had clearly failed in the first month, but they were too afraid to cut their losses back then, and now they are probably terrified of doing so. So, more good money after bad.

Edited February 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[Andryah]

They really need to implement some legacy benefits to GC to encourage gearing alts. A lot of people don't want to focus on one character and GC does make it kind of prohibitive not to do so.

 

I have yet to see any suggestion along these lines that makes any sense though. And I see only one way to make GC palatable for those who love to gear alts with the best gear ---> Vendor access for gear based on GC level, rather then grinding for random drops and Command Tokens AND PvP/OPs tokens.

 

IF.. IF... GC level gave you direct purchase access to gear (via vendor) then sure... make GC level legacy wide. Problem solved... as you only need to grind the GC tree once on your main to open it up for all your alts.

 

However, it does not. You still need to grind X amount of Cxp to even get a random box to open. And most players are very upset about the results of RNG in this right now... which IMO is not RNG per se.. but poor loot table design and itemization. Clearly the loot tables are still too diverse, and % chance of the most desired drips (set bonus) is too low. So making it legacy wide DOES NOT reduce the effort to gear an alt via GC.

 

That said.. I do think too many players are used to gearing alts via hand-me downs across their legacy from running end game group content. GC, no matter how you tune it.. will never overcome this unless/until they make GC truly follow faction grind mechanics that players are used to.

[trabble]

Absolutely no chance that this get any notice by Bioware because they simply don't care. The management has disconnected to the player base and just want a solid cash maschine.

 

So - It doesn matter if you give "good" feedback or "bad" - it will be ignored when it is about GC.

Everything they adjust here and there, and tweak here and there doenst fix the main problem: GC Itself.

 

To say it loud and clear one more time: GC SUX.

[Andryah]

I'm pretty convinced the fallacy of sunk costs assessment is spot on. They keep doubling down on a system that had clearly failed in the first month, but they were too afraid to cut their losses back then, and now they are probably terrified of doing so. So, more good money after bad.

 

You folks are using the term "sunk cost fallacy" out of context and in an invalid manner here. It applies broadly to a product, not to a narrow short term aspect of a product.

 

If they had continued to do the same exact things expac after expac.. then "sunk cost fallacy" might apply here. But they are doing exactly the opposite over time. They try new things just about every expac.. and some work and some do not and whither and die in terms of studio attention (GSF being a perfect example of this, abandoning class story being another).

 

Now.. if they keep GC, in it current dysfunctional state, for every future expac.. then you would have an actual demonstration of "sunk cost fallacy" as they stick with what does not work and continue to sink cost into it. Instead.. what we have with this studio is more of a perpetual experiment program.. where they drop prior approaches, methods and themes to try something new (which is the exact opposite of "sunk cost fallacy").

 

But I think we all can agree that they are poorly handling the release and improvement of GC to where it 1) works as they actually said it would for players 2) it gives players an ability to determine how much player effort will be required to get across the finish line 3) that said effort required looks and feels rewarding to most players.

[fmcedric]

This new tier is not what we need.

lots of ppl (casual players) go in to ops & pvp with 228 yellow/230 blue gear. No set bonus, optimal stats,...

So the solution provided here is to add another tier after 300 levels of grinding. And with that the hardcore players get full set consistently.

I will never say i know how to make a game or anything close to it, but my common sense tells me that this makes the difference between new alts/casual gamers and the people in higher ranks bigger.

 

Work on getting people in full 230 set bonus before they get tier 2 so they have something to start with so they can go for harder content if they want to (pve) and the disadvantage to people in higher gear isnt that huge (pvp). This will keep people more motivated than adding another tier that is past the ones that seemed impossible anyway (for a large group of players).

[Andryah]

This new tier is not what we need.

lots of ppl (casual players) go in to ops & pvp with 228 yellow/230 blue gear. No set bonus, optimal stats,...

So the solution provided here is to add another tier after 300 levels of grinding. And with that the hardcore players get full set consistently.

 

I agree with this.

 

It should be clear to us all by now.. they have a full 5.x life cycle plan for GC, and it was locked in before 5.0 even released. By this I mean that they already had higher tier gear planned for 5.x and had it planned to be dispensed largely though GC. Which explains why they would not listen to appeals to "remove GC"... because it is integral to their plans for the life of this expac.

 

I also think they are constrained by this plan in terms of how they remedy the shortcomings of GC. Which is why they appear to be "doubling down" on GC rather then doing what players wish --- remove it and return to earlier end game gear progression methods.

 

That said.. given how badly they deployed GC, and how poorly it was received, I kind of doubt it will survive past 5.x. Their history shows that they abandon what does not work out, or is too expensive to continue to maintain. Time will tell.

[stoopicus]

You folks are using the term "sunk cost fallacy" out of context and in an invalid manner here. It applies broadly to a product, not to a narrow short term aspect of a product.

 

I disagree. I understand the point you were trying to make, but the term applies here as well. We are on the third patch now trying to change this system into a palatable one for the players - in other words, the "continued investment" part of the fallacy - while there has been a broad failure to admit that, in fact, the fundamental idea itself is flawed, because of the fear that doing so would invalidate all the work and effort put in to it so far. I am guessing that they are in a position where they do NOT feel like they have the liberty to do such a thing, and so we continue to see good money poured after bad here, because the fear of admitting that they had "wasted" all the effort up until now on this by admitting failure might, in their eyes, mean the death of the game at this point. And given their parent company, that might not be an idle fear.

Edited February 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[PlasmaJohn]

As many of you saw from our social media post over the weekend, we are going to be adding Tier 4 gear and another 100 Command Ranks to Galactic Command in Game Update 5.2.

Congratulations on destroying another guild.

 

What little I got to play of 4.0 was enough to get me to resub. The story was crap but that's not what I'm here for. 5.0... I tried to make it work but it was only a matter of time before the insane grind burnt me out. Ultimately the RNG frustrated one person too many in my circle of friends and things collapsed.

 

I feel... free.

 

Hold tight.

LOL. Let's try something novel: You get back into the business of making an MMO and maybe I'll come back. Oooh, it'll be fun to use the "Soon™" phrase on you guys. (I promise I'll be as timely as you folks).

[Sargrith]

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. The truth is simple and twofold:

1. BWA is stuck in a sunk cost fallacy rinse & repeat cycle, and
   
2. Crates. Period. Crates never should have happened. They should have stayed in the Cartel Market.
   

 

6.0 will be this game's defining moment imho. If with 6.0 GC isn't relegated to a single player RPG achievement system where it belongs, and the game's pre-Fallen Empire progression and loot systems brought back full time, then I expect that true Star Wars MMORPG enthusiasts will give Bioware a black eye they may never recover from.

 

I am unfamiliar with the term sunk cost fallacy but if it means they keep doing what failed and doing it more then seems like it.

 

I don't know what the defining moment will be or if it has past, hard to decide those things while stuff is going on. But I do hope there are changes in their team that going forward we can get this GC and RNG gone and back to playing the game. Sooner rather than later. I would prefer not to wait till 6.0 but well it will be what it will be.

[Andryah]

I disagree. I understand the point you were trying to make, but the term applies here as well. We are on the third patch now trying to change this system into a palatable one for the players - in other words, the "continued investment" part of the fallacy - while there has been a broad failure to admit that, in fact, the fundamental idea itself is flawed, because of the fear that doing so would invalidate all the work and effort put in to it so far. I am guessing that they are in a position where they do NOT feel like they have the liberty to do such a thing, and so we continue to see good money poured after bad here, because the fear of admitting that they had "wasted" all the effort up until now on this by admitting failure might, in their eyes, mean the death of the game at this point. And given their parent company, that might not be an idle fear.

 

Your choice to use the term in a such a narrow manner, which is not how it applies, does not make the use of it valid.

 

Now.. if you were perhaps more specific about it and state that GC specifically is suffering from "sunk cost fallacy", and specifically why, you might have a point. But GC is not the entirety of the game by any means. And.. it has had some improvements with more coming... so it's premature to declare it an irretrievable failure.. which is when use of the term sunk cost fallacy applies. But even then.. it's not yet clear that GC falls into actual sunk cost fallacy. If they fail to remedy it, ever, and continue to apply it past 5.x... then I would agree with you.. but it's too early to determine that at this point.

 

Sunk cost fallacy as a paradigm applies when something is broken beyond repair.. as in unfixable. It remains to be seen if GC falls into this category or not yet. That said.. I think we all pretty much agree it is broken, and the repairs so far (while generally neutral or positive) have not resolved some of the key issues with it currently. But that does not = unfixable.

 

GC is very fixable, and there have been ample "good" suggestions from players here as to fixes (and no... removing it is not a fix). Will it get fixed to the satisfaction of most in 5.x? Nobody knows yet.. and "yet" means it is premature to apply the term you and GC are using here.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Andryah

[Sargrith]

 

So - It doesn matter if you give "good" feedback or "bad" - it will be ignored when it is about GC.

Everything they adjust here and there, and tweak here and there doenst fix the main problem: GC Itself.

 

To say it loud and clear one more time: GC SUX.

 

I agree, its exactly how I feel about things right now.

[Andryah]

I agree, its exactly how I feel about things right now.

 

Generally speaking.. when presenting a company (any company) with a list of grievances and suggestions for how to fix it......... objective, accurate, non-passionate, non-pejorative feedback works best. The same is true for one-to-one discussions between human beings.

 

Now.. if you don't give a rats behind if they fix what feels broken to you... and you just want to vent and pretend you are a victim... then by all means make it as negative and exaggerated as you need to discharge some of your emotions about the matter.

 

On the other hand.. if you actually want things fixed..... objective, accurate, non-passionate, non-pejorative feedback works best. Objectivity and accuracy disarms most resistance to a suggestion, as does removing passionate pejorative attacks from the discussion.

 

So.. which is it for you?

Edited February 28, 2017 by Andryah

[stoopicus]

Your choice to use the term in a such a narrow manner, which is not how it applies, does not make the use of it valid.

 

I should have made it clear that I was applying it to GC (only). Apologies.

 

However, I also think you are understating the importance of the primary mechanism for endgame gearing. This game is far, far out in the long tail, with the player base primarily at max level (especially now - I took two characters 0-70 in the last week myself - but also in general).

 

GC is not the only part of the game, but it's a pretty strong contender for the most important single part of it now, and given the amount of discussion it has generated, I would argue it is rather disingenuous of you to softball its impact, so please don't

Edited February 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[masterceil]

I disagree. I understand the point you were trying to make, but the term applies here as well. We are on the third patch now trying to change this system into a palatable one for the players - in other words, the "continued investment" part of the fallacy - while there has been a broad failure to admit that, in fact, the fundamental idea itself is flawed, because of the fear that doing so would invalidate all the work and effort put in to it so far. I am guessing that they are in a position where they do NOT feel like they have the liberty to do such a thing, and so we continue to see good money poured after bad here, because the fear of admitting that they had "wasted" all the effort up until now on this by admitting failure might, in their eyes, mean the death of the game at this point. And given their parent company, that might not be an idle fear.

 

Despite what armchair developers would have you believe, an overhaul of the kind demanded by players is not something that can be done overnight, or in a week, or in a month. Changes - especially on the scale of changing the whole gearing paradigm - don't happen in a vacuum. They can't just "revert" to 4.x-style gearing without potentially breaking dozens or hundreds of other things.

 

All they can do with the minor monthly patches (where the number behind the decimal point changes) is tweak the values of the existing system. Anything else requires intensive coding, testing in a specific test environment, testing on a local server, and possibly even broader testing on a PTS before finally committing the changes to the live game. This is the realm of major, annual patches (like 6.0).

 

Andryah is undoubtedly correct - we're going to see Galactic Command gearing for the entire lifespan of the 5.x major patch. They're scrambling to make it as user-friendly as possible, but they can't just scrap it without risking breaking the game - and I don't mean in the hyperbolic "we don't like this" sense, I mean literally making the game objectively unplayable.

 

As to why they're not owning up to their mistake, I would credit that with the fact that they can't do anything about it right now. When 6.0 rolls around, they may yet say "Hey guys, we did **** up, we know we ****ed up, here's what we've done now to try and fix it". In the meantime, they can't outright call the system trash or apologise for its implementation, because they still have to live with this system for many months.

 

However, I would be utterly shocked if they didn't have stuff for 6.0 on the drawing board right now - with a new gearing system taking priority in their list of things to change.

 

GC is intrinsically linked to 5.x. It's not going away any time during the life of this major release. Best we all buckle down and get used to that fact, and hope that the tweaks BioWare has made, and continue to make with each minor and trivial patch, remove some of the bad taste from our collective mouths.

[TUXs]

Absolutely no chance that this get any notice by Bioware because they simply don't care. The management has disconnected to the player base and just want a solid cash maschine.

 

So - It doesn matter if you give "good" feedback or "bad" - it will be ignored when it is about GC.

Everything they adjust here and there, and tweak here and there doenst fix the main problem: GC Itself.

 

To say it loud and clear one more time: GC SUX.

I think they're getting their orders from higher up. It's clear this game is being replaced soon...it's not even in maintenance mode any longer...it's now in 'string-along mode'.

[TUXs]

Despite what armchair developers would have you believe, an overhaul of the kind demanded by players is not something that can be done overnight, or in a week, or in a month. Changes - especially on the scale of changing the whole gearing paradigm - don't happen in a vacuum. They can't just "revert" to 4.x-style gearing without potentially breaking dozens or hundreds of other things.

Oh come on lol - stop making excuses. They've had nearly 5 months now and with everything they've added (components, vendors, shells, gear drops, boosts), they could have easily reverted back.

[stoopicus]

Editor's note: relatively lightweight mansplaining of software development to an audience likely largely made up of software developers elided

 

Oh, BS. They don't need to revamp or remove the entire thing to fix it. Adjusting drop rates and reward tables has been a common part of MMO development for literally decades. The UC system is functionally equivalent to the old comms and crystals system, albeit with overly complicated vendors. They could improve things greatly overnight by changing values in a database.

 

Simply admitting that the actual primary gear system should be the vendors and the crates are a secondary bonus system is all they need to do as a first step. I had hopes that 5.1.2 was going to be that step, ant it may actually have been, but it is too small a step

Edited February 28, 2017 by stoopicus