CXP Pros/Cons from a founders perspective

[MaximumOwnage]

I have been holding back comments on the current system until I was able to digest the entirety of the change. I like a lot of games take change with skepticism. No different here for me. I am going to make this much simpler of a thread then you might think about pros and cons.

 

I have been here since launch and have been thru every gearing system ever in this game. I was very critical of this new system at 5.0. I and many others had good reason to be.

 

The current version (5.1) gearing in my opinion was an amazing upgrade. Anyone on these forums knows I am no white knight so take the insults somewhere else. If you step back and look it ADDED an entire system to help advance gearing. There is no negative drawback to that. It is a step up, not down. The 5.0 gearing stood the exact same so it was a positive gainer the way I see it.

 

I have played since launch and this is by far the best gearing system ever implemented in this game. One of the funnest aspects of it is the advancement after 70. That is something we never had. It is nice to add a reward to playing the game after 70. It is a win win for us. This gearing system (5.1) is perfect other than 1 ugly nasty little detail. And that detail is grind.

 

The most difficult part of this discussion with the development team is how badly they missed the grind part. How do you tell someone that you did such an awesome job in one aspect of it, and yet scold them beyond measure on another? Because that's exactly what we have here. When it comes to CXP gain per armor piece and the amount it takes to aquire them this development team is so off the mark I feel like its an insult to tell them.

 

TLDR;

 

Pros: Everything. It is a complete and total upgrade to anything we have had in the past. Every aspect of this gearing system is a step in the right direction.

 

Cons: And this is the sad part of this deal. Because the con is a absolute game breaker. The ONLY con I have is cost. And the cost isn't a little off, it is game breaking off as most players and guilds have already seen. I think a good starting point of this gear grind should be 70-75% faster than it is now.

 

In closing if you guys could get past the "grind" this system is best this game ever had. But the unfortunate part is that tweaking will not fix this at all. when you need to make CXP grind 70-75% faster you don't need a tweak, you need a baseball bat to make that adjustment.

 

Unless you guys step in immediately and take a MAJOR swing at CXP gains you are going to continue to lose subscribers and the toxic level in this game will continue. You go ahead right now today and make the grind 70-75% faster than it is now instantaneously the toxic levels will subside, and I know ALOT of people who will come back and sub to this game immediately.

 

You guys made an awesome gearing system. Don't blow it and the entire game by being stubborn rock heads over 1 thing. Whether you know it or not it is a game breaker and it is hurting this entire game right now.

 

Don't wait 2 months or even 2 weeks to implement this. Do it now and lets us all get back to the game we love so much. Don't procrastinate this. Just do it and be done with this cancer grind that is tearing this game apart. I didn't give you a list of things to do. Just one thing and this game turns around overnight. Just do it!

[Kawiki]

For OPs PvEers I think it helped a significant amount. From a PvPer perspective it was a slap in the face. The UCs are not nearly enough or on par with what is possible from PvE and it is now quicker to gear for PvP by doing OPs. It is a disparity that can't happen.

 

The changes to bolster is big part of the above. 5.1 was extremely damaging to PvP.

[MaximumOwnage]

For OPs PvEers I think it helped a significant amount. From a PvPer perspective it was a slap in the face. The UCs are not nearly enough or on par with what is possible from PvE and it is now quicker to gear for PvP by doing OPs. It is a disparity that can't happen.

 

The changes to bolster is big part of the above. 5.1 was extremely damaging to PvP.

 

All I do is PVP pretty much 24/7. I do agree that the return rate needs to be significantly raised, but I totally disagree with the recent bolster change to be damaging. Actually the exact opposite. Bolster prior to the fix (a well needed fix) had it bolstered to 250. That was not accurate boost. The accurate boost would be somewhere in the range of 228-235 ish which is exactly where the development team put it.

 

This crap storm over this recent adjustment to PVP bolster is un founded. It is exactly where it should be and all the people yelling about putting it back to 250 is unfair attacks on the development team. They did what was a correct fix and yes it was an obvious fix. Anyone who doesn't see that clearly I am afraid there is nothing more I can say. Its a no brainer what they did.

[Kawiki]

While I agree with you that it is not as big of an issue as some are letting on I believe it will be one at some point. The biggest issue being how quickly one can get the gear for PvP. In most prior versions you could be within 4 gear rating within one week, if not sooner. As it stands now that is impossible and as time goes by the gear disparity will only get bigger.

 

I posted this in the PvP forum.

 

The problems are not currently significant (in reality) in regs but there are problems (in perception).

 

1. People perceive there to be a gear advantage combined with the UC and CXP disparity people are leaving at the first sign of trouble.

 

2. There is a disparity in gear at times. Most everyone is about the same right now. But you do have those matches where one team is at a higher tier level and gear does make a difference in those matches.

 

3. As time goes on it will get increasingly worse for new player, people returning to the game and alts. Two months from now I would expect to see a much wider range of gear. it will be a significant problem for the population of PvP as people will leave at a faster rate then new ones join.

 

4. As a crafter prices will not come down significantly enough where the majority of new/returning people (or alts & casuals) will be willing/able to purchase the gear.

 

tldr It is a small problem now that will only get larger as time goes by.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Kawiki

[DanNV]

GC is a terrible system for endgame gearing. It flat out is. For people who were doing HM Op progression in November to know find they have MONTH of grind to get the gear to even get back at it, it's an unacceptable mess. To refresh your memory, an 8 man team needs 112 peices of gear. At 2 pieces per op, that is 56 ops runs. At 2 per week (which seems to be average) that's 28 weeks. If you up it to three nights a week its still 17 weeks, just to get a tier one set so you can start on HMs again. That isn't a good system. That's a disaster and is why guilds are folding up and why people like me are leaving. It's no fun. (And don't give me "but the other bosses have a chance to drop something" because we haven't had one boss other than the last one drop anything.) The grind for crates is totally stupid and aimed at just making you grind forever in hopes of maybe, someday getting something good. People who like that system are the same ones casinos pray upon.

 

If they'd added GC on top of the old gearing system, people would have loved it. But, replacing the old system with a rehash of a failed RNG system they had previously was a terrible idea.

[MaximumOwnage]

GC is a terrible system for endgame gearing. It flat out is. For people who were doing HM Op progression in November to know find they have MONTH of grind to get the gear to even get back at it, it's an unacceptable mess. To refresh your memory, an 8 man team needs 112 peices of gear. At 2 pieces per op, that is 56 ops runs. At 2 per week (which seems to be average) that's 28 weeks. If you up it to three nights a week its still 17 weeks, just to get a tier one set so you can start on HMs again. That isn't a good system. That's a disaster and is why guilds are folding up and why people like me are leaving. It's no fun. (And don't give me "but the other bosses have a chance to drop something" because we haven't had one boss other than the last one drop anything.) The grind for crates is totally stupid and aimed at just making you grind forever in hopes of maybe, someday getting something good. People who like that system are the same ones casinos pray upon.

 

If they'd added GC on top of the old gearing system, people would have loved it. But, replacing the old system with a rehash of a failed RNG system they had previously was a terrible idea.

 

If they would make the gearing 75% quicker on everything it would be a win win. It would be the old system on steroids. The only thing causing this toxic environment is the grind. Period. If they remove the grind by 70-75% we have a winner. They need to do it today IMO before the toxins of this set in too deep.

 

If they do this immediately, this entire 5.0-5.1 issue disappears and we can go back to enjoying this game like we did prior to 5.0. Its that simple. Not a tweak, a HUGE increase by at least 70-75%. Minimal.

[MaximumOwnage]

I like so many others (especially since DvL) have almost an entire account full of alts. There are classes that need both guard and dps gear, and others that need healing and dps gear, and so on and so forth. This fact of SWTOR being an altoholics game is what made this new gearing system completely toxic. It is NOT the system. The new system is a lot of fun and I like it. BUT YOU CAN NOT MAKE A GAME THAT ALLOWS 50 PLUS CHARACTERS PER SERVER TO BE AN ASIAN GEAR GRIND! Period!

 

Take the grind down and you have a winner. Leave the gear grind even close to what it is now and the game will dissolve and be toxic. Its really that simple.

 

It is such a simple fix. I hope this development team sees it and if they see it fix this today. Right now. don't go home till its done.

[Avicii]

For OPs PvEers I think it helped a significant amount. From a PvPer perspective it was a slap in the face. The UCs are not nearly enough or on par with what is possible from PvE and it is now quicker to gear for PvP by doing OPs. It is a disparity that can't happen.

 

The changes to bolster is big part of the above. 5.1 was extremely damaging to PvP.

 

Agree completely, part of it was the way they went about the bolster nerf and the dismissive nature to their response. However if they did what the OP suggested, increasing CXP gain by 70% and increase the drop rate of gear by 50% it would be a massive improvement.

 

IMO they need to ensure that getting T1 is easy for PvPers everyone needs to have their set bonus by the time they get through T1, there is no excuse this isnt in place. I believe T2 and T3 should follow suit. Legendary can remain an RNG grind, but put PvPers back into a position where gear isnt a deciding factor in any match.

[gabigool]

If they would make the gearing 75% quicker on everything it would be a win win. It would be the old system on steroids. The only thing causing this toxic environment is the grind. Period. If they remove the grind by 70-75% we have a winner. They need to do it today IMO before the toxins of this set in too deep.

 

If they do this immediately, this entire 5.0-5.1 issue disappears and we can go back to enjoying this game like we did prior to 5.0. Its that simple. Not a tweak, a HUGE increase by at least 70-75%. Minimal.

 

You know what would be win/win?

 

Putting the gear back on the bosses. Putting back the old PvP gearing model. It did not hurt anyone.

 

The current system destroys the player that logs in for 6 hours per week.

 

RNG does not help this game at all. From any standpoint, non-RNG > RNG for a casual player who wants to play at a high level.

[Groncho]

i like ur post

But remember

Most of Us veterans create a lot of toons, and they need gear in PvP to perform. I had 14 L65 with bis PvP gear. Even with the legacy armor u still have to farm an x amount of Uc's via PvP to complete a toon and if u have different purples in your miror classes well....this system locks ur gameplay per toon, we are Forced to play and x amount of time per toon to get gear and pray for RNG to get a purplefirst and second if got lucky that is not a dupe.

 

And if u want tank/dps gear or heal/dps gear for only 1 mirror class...yes, it's just 2 much time

 

It's not flexible at all as we were used at 4.0

 

When u talk about bolster u are somehow right, but remember gear in pvp should not be the key, Just Skill and wins. And of course having the chance to min/max so u can use your toon as if fits to your gamestyle.

 

if 242 is Bis, setting bolster in 236 would help a lot, specially new and returnig players (and this game needs tons of them)

 

BoL UC's

Higher return in GCXP for completed instances (PVP/PVE)

Edited January 27, 2017 by Groncho

[DanNV]

If they would make the gearing 75% quicker on everything it would be a win win. It would be the old system on steroids. The only thing causing this toxic environment is the grind. Period. If they remove the grind by 70-75% we have a winner. They need to do it today IMO before the toxins of this set in too deep.

 

If they do this immediately, this entire 5.0-5.1 issue disappears and we can go back to enjoying this game like we did prior to 5.0. Its that simple. Not a tweak, a HUGE increase by at least 70-75%. Minimal.

 

No, making it 75% faster still leaves it RNG based which means you may still go ages without getting a piece of gear you can use. That's a huge problem and why people are upset with the RNG part of it. And, as to the toxins, they are already in too deep. The system is hated and it will carry that hate no matter what they do to it.

 

I still run into people who played the game at launch and want nothing to do with it because of all the mistakes BW made then, even tough until 4.0 they had corrected them. GC will be no different. People will still hate it no matter what they do to "fix" it and not come back.

[DanNV]

You know what would be win/win?

 

Putting the gear back on the bosses. Putting back the old PvP gearing model. It did not hurt anyone.

 

The current system destroys the player that logs in for 6 hours per week.

 

RNG does not help this game at all. From any standpoint, non-RNG > RNG for a casual player who wants to play at a high level.

 

Exactly.

[OFAWFletch]

Grind=Bad!!!! Take away the Grind=Happy peeps:D Edited January 27, 2017 by OFAWFletch
context

[Karnethies]

here is an idea to try

 

in the weekly rewards for GSF and unranked pvp add unassembled components to the reward box 150 to 200 for pvp and 100 to 125 to GSF

 

this way more components can be earned quickly and i'm sure easier to code so we don't have to wait till april for any other weird fixes.

[kodrac]

This crap storm over this recent adjustment to PVP bolster is un founded. It is exactly where it should be and all the people yelling about putting it back to 250 is unfair attacks on the development team. They did what was a correct fix and yes it was an obvious fix. Anyone who doesn't see that clearly I am afraid there is nothing more I can say. Its a no brainer what they did.

 

They wouldn''t have to deal with these attacks if they had any foresight whatsoever. They knew 250 was too high and they let it go live anyway. They create these problems themselves. Now they have to deal with the backlash of people feeling less powerful than what they've known. You can't "fix" something after people have gotten used to it. Their policy of knowingly putting out crap and then fixing it later is terrible management. Do it right the first time or don't do it at all. A polished turd is still a turd.

Edited January 27, 2017 by kodrac

[Deewe]

CXP Pros/Cons from a founders perspective

Speaking of founders, here's some feedback from an elder

 

The way the CXP was implemented is far from the best system we got in SWTOR.

While it needed tweaking, the token system was the most simple and allowed players not only to get rewarded for their efforts but also it mitigated the RNG issue. Also you always had a chance to get decent items out of any mobs.

 

Speaking of CXP the main issue isn't the cost but the RNG topped by the fact that you can get multiple times the same item out of the crates.

 

Cost is indeed of an issue but again it comes second to the RNG, yeah the elephant.

 

Then the 3rd issue is that the current system does not promotes playing alts at and also does not promotes playing multiple specs on the same character.

 

Top that with the fact that new system is quite a mess and way more complicated than the token one,

 

 

Now, on paper, the CXP which was: allow any player to have access to high end gear through any content was smart. It's the current implementation that's wrong. So wrong.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Deewe

[MaximumOwnage]

They wouldn''t have to deal with these attacks if they had any foresight whatsoever. They knew 250 was too high and they let it go live anyway. They create these problems themselves. Now they have to deal with the backlash of people feeling less powerful than what they've known. You can't "fix" something after people have gotten used to it. Their policy of knowingly putting out crap and then fixing it later is terrible management. Do it right the first time or don't do it at all. A polished turd is still a turd.

 

Well get over it. They made a mistake and it is fixed now. And fixed correctly. I'm sure you make mistakes all the time. The important thing is that they fixed it.

[ShinDoRai]

and in the same breath you should say level sync was a good deal maybe

or removing gear/customization from companions

or making old content wich was boring/outdated again pertinent

nerfing all SM content from easy to absolut nursery level

and bind this all to a grind/cxpsystem that dont reward u in any ways,

only to keep u subbed and play your mainchar to endlessness

 

#decentcontentwithnonedifficultyisboringashell even on SM

[MaximumOwnage]

Speaking of founders, here's some feedback from an elder

 

The way the CXP was implemented is far from the best system we got in SWTOR.

While it needed tweaking, the token system was the most simple and allowed players not only to get rewarded for their efforts but also it mitigated the RNG issue. Also you always had a chance to get decent items out of any mobs.

 

Speaking of CXP the main issue isn't the cost but the RNG topped by the fact that you can get multiple time the same items out of the crates.

 

Cost is indeed of an issue but again it comes second to the RNG, yeah the elephant.

 

Then the 3rd issue is that the current system does not promotes playing alts at and also does not promotes playing multiple specs on the same character.

 

Top that with the fact that new system is quite a mess and way more complicated than the token one,

 

 

Now, on paper, the CXP which was: allow any player to have access to high end gear through any content was smart. It's the current implementation that's wrong. So wrong.

 

If they would eliminate the insane grind, we would have everything we had in the old gearing system and a whole lot more. It is a token system. The problem is the tokens are 50 times harder to grind then they were prior to 5.0.

 

Take away the china gear grind and we have a 100% winning gear system and a funner one than before. Keep the grind in the system and you have a catastrophic failure that will result in more than likely the game having a full meltdown at a rate never seen prior to 5.0.

 

The only thing wrong with this system (5.1) is the grind. And its not a little bit off, it is way off at the tune of about 75% off.

 

You should be able to reach 300 command rank at a decently quick rate. I have 50 toons on this game and even if they made the grind insanely fast, I would be busy busy busy for a very long time. And that would just be for command rank alone.

 

The new system is awesome in my opinion. Best system I have seen since launch. But with the grind the way it is, it is terminal cancer for this game. There is no doubt if they don't make a hugely drastic swing at this ASAP it will do damage and the type of damage bioware will not be happy to see happen.

 

How can something so nice be so toxic? I can tell you how. Attaching a china style grind to it. That's how.

 

Remove the grind bioware and you will have yourself one heck of a winning system. Keep it and be prepared to for the aftermath of it. I would prefer you remove it now and let us all go back to playing the game we love.

[Kawiki]

Well get over it. They made a mistake and it is fixed now. And fixed correctly. I'm sure you make mistakes all the time. The important thing is that they fixed it.

 

Did they? I'd argue they come to the same result without factoring new data.

 

Fact - The Difference is now 10 between bolster and BiS., it was 8.

 

Fact - it took approx a week at the longest with moderate play to be 4 behind BiS.

 

Fact - It now takes roughly 100+ Hours to be 6 behind BiS or a significant amount of credits t be 8.

 

They made the disparity greater while also increasing the time to get close. This is not fixing it by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Kawiki

[MaximumOwnage]

and in the same breath you should say level sync was a good deal maybe

or removing gear/customization from companions

or making old content wich was boring/outdated again pertinent

nerfing all SM content from easy to absolut nursery level

and bind this all to a grind/cxpsystem that dont reward u in any ways,

only to keep u subbed and play your mainchar to endlessness

 

#decentcontentwithnonedifficultyisboringashell even on SM

 

All of those things you mentioned are absolutely legitimate. And not only that but worthy of discussion, no doubt about it. Some might agree or disagree with those issues. And there is probably a list of 20 more very important issues that are worthy of a dialog and discussion. But this gear grind is a game breaker. A very serious game breaker that if not fixed immediately will have serious consequences. And not only that but an extremely easy fix for the development team. One that could be made within hours.

 

Being able to customize a companion or introducing level syncs are defiantly issues worth discussing. I am not pewpewing it. But companion customizations will not break the entire community apart and drive this game into the ground. This new gearing system will and has started already. Its an easy fix. Fix it! Don't wait a month or even a week. Fix the dam thing now and lets knock off this bullcrap pride and get this game pointing in the right direction.

 

The time to talk about it is over. We need action and we need it now! Remove the damn grind!

[Deewe]

If they would eliminate the insane grind, we would have everything we had in the old gearing system and a whole lot more. It is a token system. The problem is the tokens are 50 times harder to grind then they were prior to 5.0.

 

Take away the china gear grind and we have a 100% winning gear system and a funner one than before. Keep the grind in the system and you have a catastrophic failure that will result in more than likely the game having a full meltdown at a rate never seen prior to 5.0.

 

The only thing wrong with this system (5.1) is the grind. And its not a little bit off, it is way off at the tune of about 75% off.

 

You should be able to reach 300 command rank at a decently quick rate. I have 50 toons on this game and even if they made the grind insanely fast, I would be busy busy busy for a very long time. And that would just be for command rank alone.

 

The new system is awesome in my opinion. Best system I have seen since launch. But with the grind the way it is, it is terminal cancer for this game. There is no doubt if they don't make a hugely drastic swing at this ASAP it will do damage and the type of damage bioware will not be happy to see happen.

 

How can something so nice be so toxic? I can tell you how. Attaching a china style grind to it. That's how.

 

Remove the grind bioware and you will have yourself one heck of a winning system. Keep it and be prepared to for the aftermath of it. I would prefer you remove it now and let us all go back to playing the game we love.

You still forgot a couple of elements, gearing alts or alternative specs plus the complexity of the system.

 

So no, this new system is not up to what we had before.

[MaximumOwnage]

You still forgot a couple of elements, gearing alts or alternative specs plus the complexity of the system.

 

So no, this new system is not up to what we had before.

 

If they remove the grind it is the same as before and even better with command crates as a boot. You can easily move armoring around with legacy gear to alts. And if they made grinding command points really quick and easy you will be back to gearing out your alts in no time at all.

 

If the grind is removed all these issues go bye bye. I have 50 toons and prior to this 5.0 almost all geared. Trust me I feel your pain. That's why I am posting in this thread.

[MaximumOwnage]

The point that I am trying to make is remove the grind and almost all the problems are solved. Is there anyone here that disagrees with removing the grind from the new system? If there is I have yet to see them or anyone post on it.

 

With a game that allows for 50 toons on one server, there is no reason to have this grind. Make it quick and easy to grind gear for all these toons and you have yourself an awesome update, a very fun gearing system, and a lot of happy players. Keep it and watch the cancer spread. It is honestly really that simple. Its that simple.

[Kawiki]

The point that I am trying to make is remove the grind and almost all the problems are solved. Is there anyone here that disagrees with removing the grind from the new system? If there is I have yet to see them or anyone post on it.

 

With a game that allows for 50 toons on one server, there is no reason to have this grind. Make it quick and easy to grind gear for all these toons and you have yourself an awesome update, a very fun gearing system, and a lot of happy players. Keep it and watch the cancer spread. It is honestly really that simple. Its that simple.

 

I'd throw in the RNG element also but I think we can all agree that reducing the grind would solve a lot of issues.