Feel like the Sith Empire has lost a lot of its luster

[Lium]

Remember back in KOTOR2 when we started hearing about the True Sith from Kreia? We thought Revan and Malak were Sith but it turned out they were only being used by the real Sith Emperor that we ultimately faced in this game.

 

The Sith were always this unstoppable and mysterious force. No one could mess with them. The Republic is getting destroyed and rebuilt all the time in this universe it seems, but the Sith Empire is pretty constant, even if it had different rulers in different times.

 

Then along came the Eternal Empire, and it was able to subjugate the mighty Sith. The caveat, of course, is that the Eternal Empire was founded by a former Dark Lord of the Sith, but still. It made the Sith look weak.

 

I know even though this game is not canon that at some point the Sith Empire had to fall because eventually the Rule of Two is implemented. But I'm thinking the devs need to so something while SWTOR is still a thing give the Sith some of their mojo back.

[Plk_Lesiak]

Well, the Sith were already losing the war badly before the KotFE storyline. It's quite possible that the danger that Emperor posed to the whole galaxy and demonstrated by consuming Ziost and then Arcann's invasion saved the Empire from total defeat.

 

But that's missing the point. The power of the Sith doesn't come from them being unbeatable. It's not just because of Vitiate that they always came back after defeat. Even if the Sith at one moment of history are truly eradicated, their teachings and the temptations of the dark side remains. There will always be Jedi that will fall to darkness, so as long as the legacy of the Sith - their knowledge and artefacts they left behind, or maybe even the memory of their existence - isn't completely destroyed, the conflict never truly ends.

[OldVengeance]

The Republic was the one that was constant throughout galactic history, and the Sith Empire was getting destroyed and rebuilt in new incarnations over and over again.

 

That aside, making them a playable faction was always going to come at the cost of taking away some of the ominous and mysterious allure from the end of Kotor 2. I guess it's about what matters to you more. I had a lot of fun with the Sith Warrior and Imperil Agent stories, so I think wouldn't have wanted those taken away.

[SithKoriandr]

The Republic was the one that was constant throughout galactic history, and the Sith Empire was getting destroyed and rebuilt in new incarnations over and over again.

 

^This.

 

How can one say the Sith Empire was constant? It isn't even a thing in the original trilogy. It's the Galactic Empire and run by a Sith who has a Sith apprentice. Two Sith do not make an Empire. Vader doesn't even get second ruler status either. He takes commands from Tarkin at times.

[Kaedusz]

It's redemption is that it destroyed itself, as always, not by outside forces. So it still works for those that like the powerful but corrupted trope, in other words Sith fans. Edited January 11, 2017 by Kaedusz

[SteveTheCynic]

^This.

 

How can one say the Sith Empire was constant? It isn't even a thing in the original trilogy. It's the Galactic Empire and run by a Sith who has a Sith apprentice. Two Sith do not make an Empire. Vader doesn't even get second ruler status either. He takes commands from Tarkin at times.

More to the point, perhaps, the ANHESBROTJ Galactic Empire is a corrupted version of the Republic.

[Lunafox]

The Empire and the Sith are losing their luster. Why? Because the writers of this game insist on killing our heroes.

 

Who has the Republic lost? Nobody.

 

Satele Shan is living on seriously borrowed time. That woman should have been executed or beheaded with a lightsaber *ages* ago.

 

If we have to lose our most stalwart defender and leader in Marr, then the Republic deserves an equally horrible blow.

 

And...(KoTET spoiler ahead)

Saresh is not it. I'm pretty sure everyone wanted that bish dead

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Lunafox

[JannusFex]

If we have to lose our most stalwart defender and leader in Marr, then the Republic deserves an equally horrible blow.

 

Agreed. And Marr died in an incredibly dumb way. During the entire encounter my Sorc was like "No, dude, wait... let's try talking this through... Don't... Let's learn more before... Wait! Don't! NO!"

[FlameYOL]

Agreed. And Marr died in an incredibly dumb way. During the entire encounter my Sorc was like "No, dude, wait... let's try talking this through... Don't... Let's learn more before... Wait! Don't! NO!"

"God damm it Marr,now you're dead and I have to deal with all of this on my own!"

[SithKoriandr]

The Empire and the Sith are losing their luster. Why? Because the writers of this game insist on killing our heroes.

 

Who has the Republic lost? Nobody.

 

Satele Shan is living on seriously borrowed time. That woman should have been executed or beheaded with a lightsaber *ages* ago.

 

If we have to lose our most stalwart defender and leader in Marr, then the Republic deserves an equally horrible blow.

 

And...(KoTET spoiler ahead)

Saresh is not it. I'm pretty sure everyone wanted that bish dead

 

That's failed logic and failed story telling.

 

You don't kill off one side's hero (Satele) just because the other side lost their hero.

 

Not to mention, what's wrong with Satele dying of old age? You didn't see Yoda get killed by a Sith.

 

By your logic, for every death on one side, we should have a death on the other. So all equal kills!

[TwilekTrekker]

Honestly, I'm surprised the Sith Empire lasted as long as it did, given their extreme pressure for everyone in power to engage in political infighting, scheming, back-stabbing, and power-grabbing. Sith and Imperial commanders spend more time and energy trying to overthrow each other than the enemy, focus on short-term personal gains over long-term thinking, and they keep killing off highly experienced and/or competent spies, commanders, and Sith over petty slights, minor mistakes, or just to advance themselves. Someone who is good at surviving Sith/Imperial politics might not be the best military commander or Sith, yet the system rewards those who simply survive frequent assassination and sabotage from their peers more than those who're genuinely competent. Just look at Malavari Quinn and Moff Brysc in the Sith Warrior storyline; just look at Pirrell in the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Even as early as the original trilogy, when Darth Vader would kill off commander over commander right and left every time he was the least bit angry, I thought, "HOW HAVE YOU [THE EMPIRE] LASTED THIS LONG??? If you keep killing off experienced and competent officers over every little mistake or setback that isn't even their fault, eventually you're going to run out of experienced/competent officers and be left with inexperienced/incompetent ones, and their mistakes will lead to military and political downfall."

 

Which is exactly what is happening over TOR: It's a Deconstruction of Sith politics. It shows the long-term consequences of an Empire built on "kill or be killed, get them before they get you," and how that would severely deplete their talent pool, cause the Empire to eventually become so disorganized and inefficient, show how that system can't last. (Meanwhile, the Republic, which doesn't kill each other off over every little mistake, and doesn't severely discriminate against potentially talented aliens and Jedi, is able to hold out and rally against the Empire in the long term whereas the Empire can't rally or hold out against the Republic in the long term because they're too busy fighting and trying to gain more power from each other for themselves.) How, sooner or later, killing off your best warriors and commanders over every perceived "weakness" or mistake is, essentially, throwing the baby out with the bath water, leaving you with an empty tub.

 

It seems the Sith Empire (every incarnation) is great at short term victories and power grabs, but in the long term they can never sustain a system that encourages them to attack each other as much as the enemy. It's the snake that eats its own tail and then wonders why it doesn't have a body beyond the base of its own head.

Edited January 11, 2017 by TwilekTrekker

[Zehal]

The Empire and the Sith are losing their luster. Why? Because the writers of this game insist on killing our heroes.

 

Who has the Republic lost? Nobody.

 

Satele Shan is living on seriously borrowed time. That woman should have been executed or beheaded with a lightsaber *ages* ago.

 

If we have to lose our most stalwart defender and leader in Marr, then the Republic deserves an equally horrible blow.

 

And...(KoTET spoiler ahead)

Saresh is not it. I'm pretty sure everyone wanted that bish dead

 

LOL I Agree. Empire side lost more... Marr, Torian or Vette... Maybe the loss would make the Empire side Outlander more determined/Powerful in the Force than ever? Still I feel the writers where either rush or their whole scrip with deep real full story where cut off because of development issues... or maybe it was both... this happens a lot in games... Maybe if any of us can interview the writers they probably will tell you what really happen and/or why they decided to implement this in-game as final. Its my guess.

 

I still can't get over the annoying cinematic of my veteran character getting toss aside by force push like a volley ball or had to be save constantly by luck, the emperor or whatever... now that, was practically face-rolling on everything your character have done, learn or gain if you had him since the beginning...

 

I just hope next time they be more...conscious about player past actions... and don't do a restart like they did... Is it wishful thinking that they refine the replay experience...? So that all you the completed story experience you acquired actually adds more options or real palpable power and experience in the cinematic and story? Because it felt that we got a huge downgrade... even though in-game out of story we can manage just as well if even better...with legacy etc.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Zehal

[Udoroththefinal]

The loss of the sith empire is a forgone conclusion simply becuase of how the SW universe turns out in the movies and what not we know the repub eventually wins

 

Marr him self tells you at the start of makeb that sith in fighting is whats destroying the empire, kinda a standard case of "evil defeating itself" and what not

[Aeneas_Falco]

The Sith were always this unstoppable and mysterious force. No one could mess with them. The Republic is getting destroyed and rebuilt all the time in this universe it seems, but the Sith Empire is pretty constant, even if it had different rulers in different times..

 

Actually that happens to the Sith a lot more often.

 

It's usually the Sith that get completely annihilated by the Jedi, only to get resurrected at some later date. The Jedi & Republic win the majority of the wars versus various Sith states.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco

[Lium]

Honestly, I'm surprised the Sith Empire lasted as long as it did, given their extreme pressure for everyone in power to engage in political infighting, scheming, back-stabbing, and power-grabbing. Sith and Imperial commanders spend more time and energy trying to overthrow each other than the enemy, focus on short-term personal gains over long-term thinking, and they keep killing off highly experienced and/or competent spies, commanders, and Sith over petty slights, minor mistakes, or just to advance themselves. Someone who is good at surviving Sith/Imperial politics might not be the best military commander or Sith, yet the system rewards those who simply survive frequent assassination and sabotage from their peers more than those who're genuinely competent. Just look at Malavari Quinn and Moff Brysc in the Sith Warrior storyline; just look at Pirrell in the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Even as early as the original trilogy, when Darth Vader would kill off commander over commander right and left every time he was the least bit angry, I thought, "HOW HAVE YOU [THE EMPIRE] LASTED THIS LONG??? If you keep killing off experienced and competent officers over every little mistake or setback that isn't even their fault, eventually you're going to run out of experienced/competent officers and be left with inexperienced/incompetent ones, and their mistakes will lead to military and political downfall."

 

Which is exactly what is happening over TOR: It's a Deconstruction of Sith politics. It shows the long-term consequences of an Empire built on "kill or be killed, get them before they get you," and how that would severely deplete their talent pool, cause the Empire to eventually become so disorganized and inefficient, show how that system can't last. (Meanwhile, the Republic, which doesn't kill each other off over every little mistake, and doesn't severely discriminate against potentially talented aliens and Jedi, is able to hold out and rally against the Empire in the long term whereas the Empire can't rally or hold out against the Republic in the long term because they're too busy fighting and trying to gain more power from each other for themselves.) How, sooner or later, killing off your best warriors and commanders over every perceived "weakness" or mistake is, essentially, throwing the baby out with the bath water, leaving you with an empty tub.

 

It seems the Sith Empire (every incarnation) is great at short term victories and power grabs, but in the long term they can never sustain a system that encourages them to attack each other as much as the enemy. It's the snake that eats its own tail and then wonders why it doesn't have a body beyond the base of its own head.

George Lucas said in an interview with Time Magazine that the Sith, and by extension the empire, is like a virus. Where in the virus invades the host, the host attacks the virus, the virus attacks the host and everyone dies.

[Raphael_diSanto]

More to the point, perhaps, the ANHESBROTJ Galactic Empire is a corrupted version of the Republic.

 

Personally, I always thought that was pretty clever.

 

Instead of fighting the Republic and taking it over by force of arms, simply take it over from the inside, and turn it into the political entity you want it to be.

 

Palpy obviously looked at history and decided that ultimately, fighting the Republic never worked, so instead of fighting them, he'd turn them into what he wanted them to be.

[FlameYOL]

Personally, I always thought that was pretty clever.

 

Instead of fighting the Republic and taking it over by force of arms, simply take it over from the inside, and turn it into the political entity you want it to be.

 

Palpy obviously looked at history and decided that ultimately, fighting the Republic never worked, so instead of fighting them, he'd turn them into what he wanted them to be.

 

Pretty much this was his and Plagueis's reasoning "We're not warriors,we're architects of the future".

[Lium]

Personally, I always thought that was pretty clever.

 

Instead of fighting the Republic and taking it over by force of arms, simply take it over from the inside, and turn it into the political entity you want it to be.

 

Palpy obviously looked at history and decided that ultimately, fighting the Republic never worked, so instead of fighting them, he'd turn them into what he wanted them to be.

The fact that so many people didn't realize this was what the entirety of the prequel trilogy was about boggled my mind. It was about how a democracy could turn into a fascist state with the approval of the people.

 

"So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause." Honestly, it was some of Lucas' best work.

[Raphael_diSanto]

The fact that so many people didn't realize this was what the entirety of the prequel trilogy was about boggled my mind. It was about how a democracy could turn into a fascist state with the approval of the people.

 

"So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause." Honestly, it was some of Lucas' best work.

 

I completely agree

[FlameYOL]

The fact that so many people didn't realize this was what the entirety of the prequel trilogy was about boggled my mind. It was about how a democracy could turn into a fascist state with the approval of the people.

 

"So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause." Honestly, it was some of Lucas' best work.

 

Agreed,I think the execution could have been better but that overall theme of how the Sith infiltrated the republic and twisted to their needs is really entertaining.

[revansowns]

Pretty much this was his and Plagueis's reasoning "We're not warriors,we're architects of the future".

I love that line.

[light_senshi]

Sith Warriro: "So, you're an elitist snob."

Overseer Tremel: "You say that like it's a bad thing."

 

The Sith Empire is one where you get ahead at any cost and at the expense of others. If this sounds familiar....it should: It's one possible direction that our society could end up at and can be seen as already going towards.

[cool-dude]

I think Obi-wan nailed it in what he said to Maul just before Satine was executed.

 

Obi-wan: "You can kill me, but you will never destroy me. It takes strength to resist the darkside. Only the weak fully embrace it."

 

Maul: " It is more powerful tha........( Obi- wan cuts him off)

 

Obi-wan: " And those who oppose it are more powerful than you could ever be."

[Aeneas_Falco]

The Sith can't help themselves with all of the infighting.

 

They don't choose to be that way. It is the influence of the dark side of the Force. There is a great quest in the Sith Warrior storyline in SWTOR that ties into that. On Tatooine the Sith Warrior will be confronted by a force ghost representing the part of him or her that is the opposite alignment of how the Sith *usually* leans. For dark side Sith Warriors, it's the part of him or her that is light side. The light side force ghost will warn that continually embracing the dark side will mean being condemned to a life of fear and paranoia, never knowing peace, and always anticipating betrayals. It also mocks the dark side's perception of strength, rightly pointing out that Darth Baras, a powerful Sith Lord, is terrified of Jaesa Wilsaam, a mere padawan who isn't yet fully trained in the Force.

 

Fear is part and parcel to the dark side, and the Sith live in a constant state of paranoia. It's not unlike real world dictators like Stalin, who see any person who accumulates too much power as a potential threat to them, even if they aren't. Sith lords can't help but be paranoid of their apprentices, and the minute any apprentice gains too much mastery of the Force, or gathers enough of a power base to potentially threaten the master, the master will strike first, even if the apprentice isn't actively plotting against him or her. Likewise apprentices live in perpetual fear of their masters, which is probably as much a motivation for overthrowing and killing their masters as any lust for power.

 

Lust for power is also a facet of the dark side. While there is the occasional outlier among the Sith who doesn't crave political power as much as his or her fellows, most are never fully satisfied with their current position in the Sith hierarchy. Unless there is war with the Jedi that creates vacancies, often the only way to move up the ladder is to eliminate the person holding the rung above you.

 

The only way the Sith could ever fully eliminate the infighting would be to pivot away from the dark side somewhat, and embrace elements of the light side. Of course to the Sith, that would be heretical.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco

[SithKoriandr]

Lust for power is also a facet of the dark side. While there is the occasional outlier among the Sith who doesn't crave political power as much as his or her fellows, most are never fully satisfied with their current position in the Sith hierarchy. Unless there is war with the Jedi that creates vacancies, often the only way to move up the ladder is to eliminate the person holding the rung above you.

 

Even with wars going on with the Jedi that's creating vacancies, they don't seem to be content with the pace in which their superiors will be defeated.