Yes we can!

[Qwurdilu]

We can make ranked great again!

This is a small compendium on why in my opinion ranked failed so far, and possible solutions for this year.

 

 

Introduction

Why has ranked failed so far?

 

There are multiple reasons for that. Many here claim its the lack of crosserver, but i never believed that. Imho the problem is deeper, and of much more complex nature and crosserver could just treat the symptomps but not face the real problem this game ever had in ranked: Declining participation

 

The current matchmaking and rating system establishes a foodchain for teams. The very best teams will be on top, and obviously there will be some on the bottom. Now human nature is rather simple: Winning is fun, losing is not. So the teams on bottom that constantly lose are likely to stop participating. So over time, the number of players participating declines. This is what i call a non sustainable ranked system.

This effect was ever present in swtor ever since there was ranked. It was the reason why 8vs8 collapsed, and while crosserver for sure would have helped....well we dont have crosserver, so lets move on.

With arenas Bioware tried to tackle that very problem. Not only you only had to find 3 friends rather than 7, which really helps a lot in terms of teammanagement, it also allowed you to que solo.

But i feel the latter wasnt really thought through. We now have two seperate ques and what in reality happens is this:

Most players want to play teamranked. But due to how the system works, the foodchain demoralisation takes place and after a row of defeats a team is likely to stop queing and go into solo instead.

So what we experience is that solo ranked actually kills teamranked. But its worse, the players who go from team to solo are usually in voicechat, and they dont leave it suddenly just because theyare queing for another mode.

Actually, in solo ranked youll find more "teams" than you find in the team que. Its a perverted system that promotes selfishness and toxic behavoir against players that are not part of your peer group. It other words, and id like to quote Kre’a: its a giant circle jerk.

So if you observe the break up of teams, and the language used in solo ranked, its safe to say that this gamemode really hurts the community.

 

So how can we promote teamwork, sportsmanship and beeing competetive?

 

 

The 3 Pillars

 

I have a vision on how we can realistically (so no crossserver ) improve ranked experience this year. Its based on three pillars. The first will be very controversial, but ill ask you for your patience to read through the other two before you judge, because the greater idea only works with all three.

 

1. Replace solo ranked by a Groupfinder for Teamranked

...with forced trinity. So every ranked game will have a tank and healer. Theres not enough tanks and healers? Well thats too bad. No pop then. There will never be a way to balance classes properly if we dont force trinity. Its just impossible. Also, i guarantuee we will have much more tanks and healers than we have now, because once theyre actually needed for pops, they wont get flamed out of matches so bad as theyre now.

The idea is, that those who really want to benefit from teamplay but cant find a fix team are still able to que together "legally". So lets say youre a super good healer, and your friend is a super good tank and you want to play together, now you can and you dont ne to que sync for that. This not only eliminates the huge advantage from the que syncers it also takes away the argument from the toxic players away, because they can be easily countered by: "if you dont like your teammates, then chose em yourself!" Also thos toxic players are often those who use every advantage they can, so theyre much more likely to form groups before they que

I guarantue that we see a massive increase in teamplay.

 

2. Make Ranked the best way to farm cxp

 

We will still have a foodchain this year because eliminating a foodchain is not as simple. So for now what we can do is increase the food. We have a massive resource and that is grinders. There are a lot in swtor. If we adjust the cxp gained in uprising and ranked, we may get those grinders, to not run fractured for the 100000000 time but rather que up for ranked (via the new groupfinder mentionend above)

This will massively increase the number of players participating in ranked, and due to the possibility of teaming up, noone who doesnt like to be with a grinder in a team, needs to be!

I talked to lot of players, and lot of them wouldnt mind much if they lose more than they win in ranked if they get good cxp but currently there are two major barriers. The first one beeing the toxic community in solo. So they would have to que for team if they dont want to get insulted, but theres the other barrier, no fast pops. Both of those barriers could be eliminated with the solutions described above.

 

 

3. Matchmaking based on diversity instead of rating

The current rating system tries to match the good vs the good, and the bad vs the bad. However this is based on wrong conclusions: The first is the assumption that a good team will be good against any other team, and a bad team will be bad against any other team. On game based on rock paper scissor this doesnt translate perfectly, because team A may lose a lot against team B, and win against team C but this doesnt equate that team B wins easily against team C.

In fact, teams may also form a rock paper scissor circle.

The second is that rating actually translates into team strength, which more often than not is not true because there are not enough teams in que for rating system to work.

Also Human nature is simple. Winning is fun, losing is not. Losing 3 games in row is bad. But losing 3 games against the same team is even worse because its boring.

 

So the conclusion is we need more diversity in matchmaking. In a perfect world with hundreds of teams queing, the current system would provide that. But what happens in reality is that when only 4 teams are in que, its very likely matchmaking forms two pairs, and they will play a lot against each other.

A better solution would be that when 4 teams are in que before you face the same team again, youll definately face 3 others.

Ofc this is not 100% possible because of human interaction in term of que dodging, but basing matchmaking on diversity rather than on rating will be a good first step.

This will lead to the worst team facing the best team once, but it also will ensure that it doesnt has to face the best team twice or even trice in a row.

 

 

The vision

 

So if this works out, there will be each day many players who are starting to que for ranked, just to farm the cxp. This will lead to pvp people forming groups, to que against them. So lets say it really works out on the first day, and there are 10 teams in que, and lets pretend 10min per game, thatll make 1h30min before you have to face the same team again. So if there are one or two teams in que that will totally wreck others, you have plenty of games before or after you have to face them which will reduce the frustration and thus make it more likely for you to stay in que, and increase the chance of having a competetive matchup against a similar skilled team.

So this sounds good to you so far? Good! But the best thing about it is: its adding elements of grinding and this is good for bioware. More time spent in game=more money=more likely to be realized by BW.

So lets spread the word

 

Last but not least i want to thank you for your patience to read through all of this, and if you like this idea, then im glad for every support If you dont like it, feel free to offer your critic

[Storm-Cutter]

I love PvP but hate arenas. - Especially the randomness of Pugs or randomness of the opposition. I kinda prefer a close fight than a thumping win or stinging loss. - So I rarely do ranked unless I can queue with my friends- and they're not around much anymore.

 

Also, there are some classes that don't excel in small groups- and there are plenty of people in it just for the LoLs, the CXP farmers and the rest. -That all gets amplified many times in 4v4.

 

But it's mostly on Bioware to encourage more players into PvP and the best ones to try ranked- when the population is large, proper matchmaking can begin. They seriously need to make some damn shiny rewards for participation and stellar awards for the crème-de-la-crème. A lame battle flag and a title among hundreds isn't really worth flogging your guts out for.

 

The only thing we can do is be more supportive of other players. I see people telling team-mates to 'log off and kill yourself' &c from people who manage a mere 3 medals doesn't keep them queuing up.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[Owynyo]

Just make top 3 titles only available in Team Ranked. Also make it yield twice as much CXP as solo ranked.

 

Solo ranked should stay.

[Smuglebunny]

The way to make things great again it to put someone that opposes that thing as the head of it.

 

[TonyDragonflames]

All what we need is cross-faction solo ranked warzones.

[Qwurdilu]

Just make top 3 titles only available in Team Ranked. Also make it yield twice as much CXP as solo ranked.

 

Solo ranked should stay.

 

Would this make you play more teamranked? i doubt it

[Lhancelot]

We can make ranked great again!

This is a small compendium on why in my opinion ranked failed so far, and possible solutions for this year. ***snip***

 

 

I can appreciate your sentiment and share it, with regards of wishing ranked were better. I think we differ in opinion as to why it sucks though.

 

Why does Ranked PVP suck:

 

 

 

1. Solo Ranked only supports specific classes.

 

 

It's the most popular meta of ranked whether we like it or not, and it also is the most limiting meta.

 

 

2. Group Ranked requires people to coordinate and form a team.

 

 

This meta is the most balanced overall regarding ranked PVP, but it requires the most time investment and voice to get the most out of it.

 

Let's face it. The majority of players are lazy, don't have the time, or don't want to invest so much personal energy into forming a team up with perfect class compositions all the while using voice with a team for shiny swtor pixels.

 

Many gamers seem to have an ego and many would be crushed when they faced actual teams and players who were good, hence they rather not participate in Group Ranked and don't.

 

 

3. Cross server doesn't exist.

 

 

We are stuck with the server we are on and it's population. PVP populations are small so participation in ranked would be small too. The fact it sucks means even smaller of a number of the population actually participates.

 

 

4. Toxic attitudes of the players.

 

 

I almost forgot to mention this, but it's a very legitimate reason why many people avoid Ranked PVP.

 

When you have rude and obnoxious players who honestly believe they are the best and when their team loses it's always others fault, this doesn't make for a very accepting atmosphere for a new player who just wants to check out ranked.

 

People need to grow up and not throw a fit like a 5 year old when they lose.

 

 

Solutions:

 

 

 

A. Create cross server queues. (Won't happen we know this.)

 

 

B. Balance the classes so ALL the specs actually can participate in solo ranked. This would mean more people would actually queue if their favored class was actually viable.

 

 

C. Create a queue for 8v8 ranked solo.

 

This would fix the problem that exists in 4v4 Ranked which is ALL classes are not viable. It's proven by regs that ALL classes are indeed viable in 8v8s.

 

Also, more people enjoy 8v8 objective based PVP than 4v4 arenas, it's true you know it. Just give the people what they like, which is objective based 8v8 warzones for ranked already.

 

 

D. Allow people to queue for Ranked while also being queued for 4v4 ranked and/or 8v8 ranked if the player so chooses.

 

This way, there is no sitting in a ranked queue waiting forever hoping and wondering if others too are in the queue.

 

Many people jump in ranked queues, wait 5 minutes and leave it because they want to PVP and feel like they are wasting time waiting.

 

 

E. To piggyback on D., perhaps showing the exact number of people in the ranked queue would be helpful, that way you could simply look to see if it was being queued or not.

 

 

 

Notice, I am not saying remove 4v4s although personally I'd be fine with it. I am realistic though, and some enjoy the 4v4 meta and although it's a small niche I don't agree with removing something many people enjoy.

 

I am suggesting the devs balance their classes better, and offer more choices for ranked participation.

 

I am also suggesting they make the ranked queues a little more transparent meaning let us have a way to know exactly how many people are queing for ranked at any given time. That might be more useful than anything.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Lhancelot

[Owynyo]

Would this make you play more teamranked? i doubt it

 

Nope. Tbh if they were to remove solo ranked I'd just quit.

[yellow_]

1. Replace solo ranked by a Groupfinder for Teamranked

...with forced trinity.

 

3. Matchmaking based on diversity instead of rating

 

How I wish these were a thing. So many classes and specs are absurdly vulnerable outside the trinity, which is only exacerbated by the possibility that you could end up on a team of average or lower tier classes against one stacked with top tiers. I'd be happy to play far more solo ranked than I do now if it were like you've described.

 

Sadly I think it is far too late to realistically expect any serious overhaul of ranked PVP from bioware.

Edited January 8, 2017 by yellow_

[Lhancelot]

Sadly I think it is far too late to realistically expect any serious overhaul of ranked PVP from bioware.

 

Truth.

[KumbayaGOD]

i had been playing abit rank again this season and even your solution are good but realisticly the only way to have a better solution is cross server , sorry there is no way around it to solve it

 

and then put valor requirement say 60 to enter rank so wont have any CXP farmer enter it

 

like you said people play this game to have fun , and winning is fun , losing is not , that the fact of life

i had been in ranked where you can have all team on one side is all gold tier and the other side all bronze tier , so the match making is terrible. and people should play with similar rating to be competiive

for example you cant expect a game is fun when a grandmaster of chess playing a six year old kid who just barely know chess, there is no balance

 

make 8 vs 8 is good because it have less depend on class imbalance because each class can fullfill certain role, make it like group finder so each team have enough team or tank or healer and DPS so it would be even

 

but for now i guess we have to accept whatever we have and move on because 2017 there wont be any changes to pvp anytime soon

 

but your suggestion is valid tho

[xShenanigansx]

They cross server games will never happen because the technology would take too much time and effort to create. But I don't get that. I've done multiple character transfers this week, and all of which took less than 10 seconds. It just kicked me from the server, and I loaded back into the server and there was my new character. How can server transfers be that fast, but an instance server between actual servers couldn't work for cross server arenas.

[Smuglebunny]

This game is 5 years old and they barely make new content. They will not be doing any major overhauls like cross server, ever. This game will last 1-2 more years and then be replaced by something else.

[xShenanigansx]

This game is 5 years old and they barely make new content. They will not be doing any major overhauls like cross server, ever. This game will last 1-2 more years and then be replaced by something else.

 

This sounds like the sad but honest truth.

[Owynyo]

This sounds like the sad but honest truth.

 

Yarp. Don't expect any more drastic changes, especially to pvp. Let's be honest: the problem is not the system primarily, but the player base. I don't think the bleeding edge PvP Community in WoW isn't much bigger than in swtor. Percentage wise that is. There's just not enough players for ELO to work, thus less incentive for new(er) teams to queue up and lose to the good teams again and again and again without learning anything in the progress.

 

We had to beg other teams to queue up for 8v8 ranked back in december 2012, I'm surprised team ranked has lasted this long tbh.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Owynyo

[EnzoForMe]

This game is 5 years old and they barely make new content. They will not be doing any major overhauls like cross server, ever. This game will last 1-2 more years and then be replaced by something else.

 

This is honestly the truth. I used to make lots of pvp suggestion threads a few years ago when they had the resources to do something about it. Nothing was ever really done or even responded to- even after building support. This game is in the cash cow stage of its lifecycle (low investment, good return as it winds down over the next couple years), though I'm not convinced it's really that profitable.

 

I still enjoy playing but the game but won't be here in 2-3 years.

Edited January 9, 2017 by EnzoForMe

[Lhancelot]

i had been playing abit rank again this season and even your solution are good but realisticly the only way to have a better solution is cross server , sorry there is no way around it to solve it

 

and then put valor requirement say 60 to enter rank so wont have any CXP farmer enter it

 

like you said people play this game to have fun , and winning is fun , losing is not , that the fact of life

i had been in ranked where you can have all team on one side is all gold tier and the other side all bronze tier , so the match making is terrible. and people should play with similar rating to be competiive

for example you cant expect a game is fun when a grandmaster of chess playing a six year old kid who just barely know chess, there is no balance

 

make 8 vs 8 is good because it have less depend on class imbalance because each class can fullfill certain role, make it like group finder so each team have enough team or tank or healer and DPS so it would be even

 

but for now i guess we have to accept whatever we have and move on because 2017 there wont be any changes to pvp anytime soon

 

but your suggestion is valid tho

 

Everything in this post is spot on.

 

Surprised you even mention 8v8s for ranked, because most of the vocal forumquesters here love to theorize how or why 8v8 solo ranked wouldn't be good.

 

The resources it would take to create a 8v8 ranked queue would be next to nothing. They already have regs 8v8s, to create a solo queue for ranked 8v8 would hardly be a step away.

 

More people would join queues for 8v8 solo ranked than they do the 4v4 arenas.

 

On a 8v8 team you can carry some weaker links, you also play objectively, and you also have a larger map where every spec is viable and useful unlike the 4v4 arena maps.

 

The devs could keep 4v4 ranked and group ranked in if they like, because adding another option (8v8 solo ranked) wouldn't hurt anything. options are good for players, period.

 

The only people who hate the idea of a 8v8 ranked option are selfish 4v4 group ranked players who are afraid that if players are given options their wonderful little 4v4 meta would grow even less popular thus killing it entirely.

 

Ranked is crap, and the 4v4 meta is crap on this game due to too many classes being too weak in a small map 4v4 meta. This isn't hard to understand.

 

It would be different if devs could balance the classes in 4v4 as well as 8v8s but so far five years later, no dice.

 

Just make 8v8 solo ranked an option already.

[Qwurdilu]

This game is 5 years old and they barely make new content. They will not be doing any major overhauls like cross server, ever. This game will last 1-2 more years and then be replaced by something else.

 

While to a certain point i understand the negative ressentiments, a lot of it origins in unrealistic expectations like crossserver and better classbalance, and the concluding, unevitable dissapointment of them never beeing fullfilled.

 

I dont think mourning about missed opportunitys will help the cause, so please lets not talk about how crosserver, 8vs8 ranked, or perfect classbalance could affect the game, but lets rather be pragmatic, realistic. What can be done realistically?

I believe that to a big part bioware stopped listening to pvp is because there were only unrealistic, idealistic claims that couldnt be fullfilled. If we want to be part of the shaping process again, we need to come up with realistic concepts.

 

Ofc the circumstances are not a prospering environment, so theres not much that can be done. But certainly there can be done something. So lets not cling to the past, lets be optimistic about the future. 2017 can be a great year for us

[Lhancelot]

While to a certain point i understand the negative ressentiments, a lot of it origins in unrealistic expectations like crossserver and better classbalance, and the concluding, unevitable dissapointment of them never beeing fullfilled.

 

For one cross server is and never was an "unreralistic expectation", it is and was only unrealistic because the company refuses to put the resources into making it happen.

 

I also have to disagree that expecting better class balance is an "unrealistic expectation", as this is a totally realistic expectation that should be expected by players and strived to be met by the devs of this game.

 

The company choosing not to create cross server queues and the devs not living up to creating better class balance has lead to inevitable disappointment though, that much I can agree with.

[Qwurdilu]

The company choosing not to create cross server queues and the devs not living up to creating better class balance has lead to inevitable disappointment though, that much I can agree with.

 

Who says they have a choice? Bioware isnt an allmighty god but just another slave of causality.

[Alex_York]

I don't agree with any of that. I never cared for group ranked, never cared for cxp, actually like arenas more than other stupid game modes that take too much time and actually prefer being matched with players of my skill level and not noobs, which system kinda does but not good enough, sometimes i still get garbage healer in team with 900 rating who gets flamed (rightfully so) and leaves because he is awful.

 

What I would prefer is actually even more solo ranked in form of 1v1 class based queue.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Alex_York

[Neoforcer]

We can make ranked great again!

This is a small compendium on why in my opinion ranked failed so far, and possible solutions for this year.

sniped

 

Lol the only way to make rank great again is to get rid of 4v4 format and go back to 8v8 the moment they put in 4v4 over 8v8 it was a joke. The dev catered to the WOW player we want 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 crowd and guess what it was a failure from the word go no one likes it because it is to short of a format to feel epic for ranked

[Alex_York]

Lol the only way to make rank great again is to get rid of 4v4 format and go back to 8v8 the moment they put in 4v4 over 8v8 it was a joke. The dev catered to the WOW player we want 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 crowd and guess what it was a failure from the word go no one likes it because it is to short of a format to feel epic for ranked

 

Don't agree, arenas are awesome, 8v8 is ****.

[SlightlySychotic]

You say that lack of participation is the problem, which is accurate, and then you propose an idea absolutely guaranteed to reduce it. Good Lord.

 

The first problem is that this will increase queue times, substantially for DPS classes. There just aren't that many support classes. As a tank, my times were already in excess of about fifteen minutes at peak times when I used to play on Shadowlands. That's what everyone is going to experience at best. Realistically, a lot of people will drop out due to those queue times only increasing the waits further.

 

The second problem is that you basically want to do away with the only queue that has any participation. What this looks like is that you're proposing doing away with the solo queue and forcing solo players to PUG in the group queue where they will feed organized teams. Don't say "No" because that's how people are going to see it and is certainly going to be the way I argue it. Again, participation drops, queue time increase.

 

The third problem is that you're assuming that the holy trinity automatically fixes arenas. Again, as a tank who sees that holy trinity about as much as anyone, it doesn't. If the teams are evenly balanced matches end in stalemate, almost always ending in acid at which point the victor comes down to either luck or whichever team has the classes that better survive the acid.

 

The fourth problem is that, I'm sorry, a lot of people, people like me, are just done with arenas. We aren't going to try what you're proposing so you're not really increasing participation. Worse, I don't quite think you understand what you're proposing. I'm sure you think if we try this and it doesn't work then they can just roll it back. In reality, you're asking for almost two years. If they decided to implement this today it would take three to six months to implement. It would take another year AT LEAST of fine tuning and experimentation before they give up and try something else and another three to six months to implement that. I am not willing to give arenas that much time and I really don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

 

Easily one of the worst idea bandied about on this board. Do you want to fix ranked and increase participation?

 

1) Either add objective war zones to solo ranked or replace arenas entirely. Keep group ranked focused around 4v4s and if enough people show interest re-implement 8v8s down the line. We need to stop pretending that arenas aren't the problem. They aren't balanced, they have never been balanced, and they never will be balanced.

 

2) Scrap ranked altogether. Yes, I'm serious. It's very possible that, at this juncture, there aren't enough PvP players to make any incarnation of ranked successful, not just 8v8s but arenas too. If that's the case I see no reason to continue wasting resources on ranked rewards. Instead, have regs award season tokens that are earned by wins at all levels to subscribers. Have rewards release over the course of a year so each season has a armor set, weapon set, mount, color crystal, etc. Long term shift focus to developing cross-faction maps and soft matchmaking to reduce the impact of premades. It's not an ideal solution but it would work.

[Qwurdilu]

You say that lack of participation is the problem, which is accurate, and then you propose an idea absolutely guaranteed to reduce it. Good Lord.

 

The first problem is that this will increase queue times, substantially for DPS classes. There just aren't that many support classes. As a tank, my times were already in excess of about fifteen minutes at peak times when I used to play on Shadowlands. That's what everyone is going to experience at best. Realistically, a lot of people will drop out due to those queue times only increasing the waits further.

 

this is true at first glance. However reality is more complicated. There are more dps players than tank and healers, thats a given. However, theres way more tank and healer players, than actually are playing now. In reality healers and tanks are carry roles, and on many servers getting one or the other healer/tank decides if you win or lose. This results in newcomers or not-as-good-players beeing met with toxicity and most of the time they will stop queing. This circle jerk needs to stop. Right now this community, and its really the same on all server ive been playing, absolutely hates on "new players" and asks them to stop queing. That system needs to stop.

The other thing is this community tendency to use all advantages. I know a lot of healers and tanks that just dont que up in that specific role, when certain players are in que. They go dps instead, because it increases their chance.

And why wouldnt they? When theres the best healer in que, and youre the only other healer, why even bother to que?

third is class balance. Obviously without tanks, you dont want to face a sorchealer as an operative. Thats why you dont see many ops queing for solo right now.

You could fight all of these issues with the system i proposed.

 

The second problem is that you basically want to do away with the only queue that has any participation. What this looks like is that you're proposing doing away with the solo queue and forcing solo players to PUG in the group queue where they will feed organized teams. Don't say "No" because that's how people are going to see it and is certainly going to be the way I argue it. Again, participation drops, queue time increase.

 

Stating solo ranked is more popular based on participation is absurd. Of course solo ranked has more participation, but that is because teamranked doesnt work right now. What you see in reality is Teams queing in solo, you see tons of q-syncing on all servers. There are plenty of voicechats full of solo ranked players. Its easier and better for most players to exploit solo ranked than queing up for team. Thats why solo has more participation.

There is no other way to fight q-syncing and teams abusing soloranked other than merging both ques.

Splitting team and solo always leaves place for abusement, because there will always be ways for teams and groups to play as a team in solo. Thats why modern games like overwatch dont differentiate between solo and group. Its one que for all.

"solo players to PUG in the group queue where they will feed organized teams." Thats only side of the medal. The other is 4 highly skilled solo players may still win against an averaged skilled premade. Deciding who faces who is a powerfull tool that needs to be done by matchmaking and not players. Players will always abuse it.

If you dont merge ques you will always have "teams" playing in solo, and thus teammode will never properly work. Its human nature.

tl;dr

In order to have a system thats not easily exploitable and a system that encourages teamplay you need to merge ques. Theres no way around it.

 

The third problem is that you're assuming that the holy trinity automatically fixes arenas. Again, as a tank who sees that holy trinity about as much as anyone, it doesn't. If the teams are evenly balanced matches end in stalemate, almost always ending in acid at which point the victor comes down to either luck or whichever team has the classes that better survive the acid.

 

Thats a blatant lie. I never assumed trinity fixes arenas. period. I said its a requirement to fix arenas. I said without forced trinity there will never be proper class balance.

Games going into acid is a problem based on the inflation of defensives which origins in the lack of trinity. If you want to properly balance classes and fix arenas, you need to introduce forced trinity first. But then you need to keep working on balancing classes, theres much to do. However, forced trinity would be a huge step to much more balanced games.