.. and the award for Worst MMO Business Model in 2016 goes to ...

[MadCuzBad]

this business model works until you lose enough cc buying players to make a huge dropoff in cc sales. once you step off that cliff, there is no going back. Will their current fiasco be enough to do that? we will have to wait and see.

 

It must, because all these dead servers and people leaving this game by the boat load do not seem to bother them a bit. I wouldn't normally agree with a statement like yours, but in this case I would have to agree.

[Jeweledleah]

See my response to your flame bait/Astro turfing post about the game being dead here You know....the one over 50K subscribers viewed?? Yeah that is the longest death scene since This

 

It's ridiculous that some folks on this forum rub their hands together in anticipation of the games death...it makes every negative thing folks say about MMO communities valid

 

 

As unfriendly as it is it rakes in the cash..which means it won't be changing anytime soon want to blame someone? Blame the community that supports it.

 

that's the problem. community is melting away. fewer players means even the whales that buy all those cartel coins... have fewer and fewer reasons to do so. costumer unfriendly models? drive customers AWAY.

 

and honestly? I hate it that its happening. I loved this game back when it came out, warts and all. open beta player, early acess, loved it enough to get off my *** and go to midnight launch event, despite already having the game in my hands (early acess and all) I STILL have the launch poster signed by the bioware founders framed and hanging in home office.

 

I don't want this game to die. I want to continue to to love it. but the direction that bioware has been taking it in? is making it damn near impossible.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[Wayshuba]

I still feel strongly, however, that this game is likely underperforming.

 

There is no feeling about this. In the Q4 report last year, EA attributed a large $154 million loss on a few titles, one of which was SWTOR. On the last quarterly report, EA attributed a $1 million decline in their sub based businesses with SWTOR being mentioned as the primary contributor of it.

 

It is obvious EA is massively reducing costs on the title as evidenced by the embarrassingly small amount of new content released in the latest "expansion". The GC System, was the best bandaid they could probably think of to extend people playing the same group content they have been playing for over 2 years.

 

Unless their is a significant uptick in subs and sub retention with the 5.0 release (which I currently find highly suspect), I have a strong feeling EA will be done investing in new content for the game and just let it ride out as long as people are willing to pay for what exists.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Jett-Rinn]

that's the problem. community is melting away. fewer players means even the whales that buy all those cartel coins... have fewer and fewer reasons to do so. costumer unfriendly models? drive customers AWAY.

 

and honestly? I hate it that its happening. I loved this game back when it came out, warts and all. open beta player, early acess, loved it enough to get off my *** and go to midnight launch event, despite already having the game in my hands (early acess and all) I STILL have the launch poster signed by the bioware founders framed and hanging in home office.

 

I don't want this game to die. I want to continue to to love it. but the direction that bioware has been taking it in? is making it damn near impossible.

 

If I have learned anything being both a player off MMO's and someone that once worked in the industry is that customers never see the entire picture. They speculate and their perception becomes their reality. I remember quite clearly the exact same thing was being said about LOTRO a couple years after the Mines of Moria expansion dropped, there were about ten or fifteen people consistently hitting the forums preaching the doom of the game, and the population numbers were 35% higher than Launch week, yet to them the game was dead.....doomed.

 

LOTRO til this day still has a small but dedicated community and has traveled the path that nearly all MMo's will. Even WoW..... it's sad when you can remember not being able to negotiate the streets of Stormwind on Christmas eve because so many people were crowded in, today no matter when you go a instance of stormwind that handles multiple servers is dead...

 

Does that mean WoW is doomed? Not bloody likely considering this last expansion sold just as well as all the others.

 

I think what should happen is that the Players need to cut the doom saying or at least reduce it, and the developers need to improve the communication, and provide some sort of road map. But honestly it's tough to come out and talk about anything, when all you are going to get is vitriol. Brad McQuiad isn't going to tell his community jack in his upcoming game he feels like he learned his lesson with Vanguard.

 

MMO's are in a bad place right now, venture capitalist know that MMO's has the most critical and fickle communities, anyone that thinks if they get MMO A shut down it will be replaced.....it won't. I'm not telling folks not to complain, what I am saying is a bit more constructive criticism might yield better results. I also think we will see some major changes here in 2017, there is just too much industry chatter (in the way of positive remarks about Bioware Austin as an employer) to not believe that. All I know is I have been here since beta 2 I have seen ups and downs...I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon and neither is madcuzbad or most other constant complainers, despite the threats because then they wouldn't have anywhere to come and vent.

[DarthSpuds]

MMO's are in a bad place right now, venture capitalist know that MMO's has the most critical and fickle communities, anyone that thinks if they get MMO A shut down it will be replaced.....it won't. I'm not telling folks not to complain, what I am saying is a bit more constructive criticism might yield better results. I also think we will see some major changes here in 2017, there is just too much industry chatter (in the way of positive remarks about Bioware Austin as an employer) to not believe that. All I know is I have been here since beta 2 I have seen ups and downs...I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon and neither is madcuzbad or most other constant complainers, despite the threats because then they wouldn't have anywhere to come and vent.

 

1) Constructive Criticism of GC/RNG WAS given, prior to it going live, and it was IGNORED, and then when it went live and it was as bad as that feedback had indicated Ben and Charles did a live stream that, in effect, said "We like RNG, we think it is exciting, if you don't that's your problem not ours, so RNG is staying, screw you".

 

2) I am sure Bioware Austin are great to work for, any employer that can promote the author of the very, very worst Class Story of all to Lead Story Developer clearly doesn't demand too much effort from its employees. I'd love to work for an employer that would let me get away with not knowing what the hell I was doing.

 

All The Best

Edited December 26, 2016 by DarthSpuds

[LordArtemis]

Well, perhaps (and this is not meant as a justification) the devs either did not believe the feedback was a proper litmus (which begs the question as to why they solicit feedback on early builds anyway), or they simply had hope that the gaming population at large would be more accepting of the system.

 

I think it was obvious that neither point of view panned out. This was a substantial oversight, not to mention yet another example, IMO, that the devs tend to be out of touch with the playerbase more often than not.

[Jett-Rinn]

1) Constructive Criticism of GC/RNG WAS given, prior to it going live, and it was IGNORED, and then when it went live and it was as bad as that feedback had indicated Ben and Charles did a live stream that, in effect, said "We like RNG, we think it is exciting, if you don't that's your problem not ours, so RNG is staying, screw you".

 

 

So all is left now is mouth foaming and ranting? Let me know how that works for you. I remember that "Constructive Criticism" It sounded a lot like the shrill forum crapfest we deal with on a daily basis currently. You're pissed because they don't make the game the way "you" want. Life is full of not getting your way get use to it.

 

 

2) I am sure Bioware Austin are great to work for, any employer that can promote the author of the very, very worst Class Story of all to Lead Story Developer clearly doesn't demand too much effort from its employees. I'd love to work for an employer that would let me get away with not knowing what the hell I was doing.

 

All The Best

 

 

Yes we get it....you hates them you hates them forever precious.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Jett-Rinn

[MeNaCe-NZ]

So all is left now is mouth foaming and ranting? Let me know how that works for you. I remember that "Constructive Criticism" It sounded a lot like the shrill forum crapfest we deal with on a daily basis currently. You're pissed because they don't make the game the way "you" want. Life is full of not getting your way get use to it.

 

If you that's how you need to view those with a view against the changes and the current health of the game in general to try justify the overwhelmingly negative sentiment towards this 5.0 up date then that's on you.

 

In reality though most of those you are conversing with within this very thread have been very reasoned in their criticism and justifying their points where as all you seem to have to justify your perspective now is "oh it''s just mouth foaming and ranting" which from my perspective tells me you can't justify your position what so ever.

[DarthSpuds]

So all is left now is mouth foaming and ranting? Let me know how that works for you. I remember that "Constructive Criticism" It sounded a lot like the shrill forum crapfest we deal with on a daily basis currently. You're pissed because they don't make the game the way "you" want. Life is full of not getting your way get use to it.

 

Yes we get it....you hates them you hates them forever precious.

 

No, all that is left is to wait for my forum access to expire when the forum resets.

 

I don't hate them, I pity them. They had the Sci-Fi IP equivalent of the Golden Goose, and they had, at the time, record levels of initial investment and the best they could deliver is game that has lost approx 80% of its servers since launch, and should, if they were being honest, see another 5 servers close within the next quarter.

 

Really not too sure how you can continue defending such incompetence to be honest.

 

All The Best

[DarthSpuds]

I remember quite clearly the exact same thing was being said about LOTRO a couple years after the Mines of Moria expansion dropped, there were about ten or fifteen people consistently hitting the forums preaching the doom of the game, and the population numbers were 35% higher than Launch week, yet to them the game was dead.....doomed.

 

Most of the forum venting re Moria was to do with Radiance Gear, and eventually Turbine saw the light and realised that Radiance Gear was the weak-link in the Moria expac and removed it. I've played, and subbed to LOTRO since about a week after Moria went live and I have spoken to precisely NO ONE AT ALL who thought that Moria spelled the doom of the game. In fact many, many players believed (and some still believe) that Moria was the best Expac to be released for any MMORPG, ever. In fact until I tried ESO's One Tamriel a few weeks ago I was one of those who still thought Moria was the best Expac.

 

You may have a point if you can demonstrate that SWtOR's current population is higher than it was at launch. Otherwise you are just using smoke and mirrors to attack straw-men of your own making.

 

All The Best

[Jeweledleah]

If I have learned anything being both a player off MMO's and someone that once worked in the industry is that customers never see the entire picture. They speculate and their perception becomes their reality. I remember quite clearly the exact same thing was being said about LOTRO a couple years after the Mines of Moria expansion dropped, there were about ten or fifteen people consistently hitting the forums preaching the doom of the game, and the population numbers were 35% higher than Launch week, yet to them the game was dead.....doomed.

 

LOTRO til this day still has a small but dedicated community and has traveled the path that nearly all MMo's will. Even WoW..... it's sad when you can remember not being able to negotiate the streets of Stormwind on Christmas eve because so many people were crowded in, today no matter when you go a instance of stormwind that handles multiple servers is dead...

 

Does that mean WoW is doomed? Not bloody likely considering this last expansion sold just as well as all the others.

 

I think what should happen is that the Players need to cut the doom saying or at least reduce it, and the developers need to improve the communication, and provide some sort of road map. But honestly it's tough to come out and talk about anything, when all you are going to get is vitriol. Brad McQuiad isn't going to tell his community jack in his upcoming game he feels like he learned his lesson with Vanguard.

 

MMO's are in a bad place right now, venture capitalist know that MMO's has the most critical and fickle communities, anyone that thinks if they get MMO A shut down it will be replaced.....it won't. I'm not telling folks not to complain, what I am saying is a bit more constructive criticism might yield better results. I also think we will see some major changes here in 2017, there is just too much industry chatter (in the way of positive remarks about Bioware Austin as an employer) to not believe that. All I know is I have been here since beta 2 I have seen ups and downs...I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon and neither is madcuzbad or most other constant complainers, despite the threats because then they wouldn't have anywhere to come and vent.

 

others already pointed out that Turbine fixed the issues players had with mines of Moria, but other then that - that expac came with a HELL of a lot more new content that KOTET.

 

WoW is a game with millions of subscribers, and its the game with developers that are a LOT more active on their forums and attuned to feedback as well as exponentially larger content releases.

 

case in point. flying. they really wanted to get rid of flying in future expansions. players rebelled. guess what? there's now a compromise, where flying is delayed and needs to be unlocked, but its back as expected part of new content.

 

also, like its been pointed out - bioware have gotten a LOT of constructive feedback for years. how did they respond it? by doubling down on their original ideas - f2p too restrictive, drives players away? lets make it even MORE restrictive, oh some of the people you played with and bought passes for, didn't subscribe? lets just remove that particular source of cash flow - subscribe or bust. people have mentioned that severe f2p and preferred restrictions are pushing more players than they get t subscribe. and mmo's live and die on their communities, on a sheer numbers of people to play with. you NEED people. by creating a system that is downright hostile to f2p players in a game that is SOLD as f2p, and STILL penalizing subscribers by putting VAST majority of nice looking fluff behind ADDITIONAL paywalls to subscription all the while releasing very little fresh content and artificially extending old, worn content via long grinds and RNG - they are driving away just about everyone. Whales are only whales when they have people to play with.

 

people have explained why galactic command needs to be reworked and given variety of suggestions on HOW - for weeks prior to its release and for weeks after. the so called compromise we got is not compromise at all. its still as unfriendly to most players as ever.

 

they made promises that they broke again and again. how long are you supposed to wait and see and SPEND YOUR MONEY? what sort of ridiculous "stay in an abusive relationship, becasue there were some good times, without actualy working on making this relationship better, just hoping it fixes itself" mentality is that??? and yes, I'm also posting here becasue forums haven't reset yet. but... guess what! there are other forums to post on that don't require subscription at all. and ironically, it seems reddit might possibly be a better place for feedback than official forums, given how bioware shut down all but swtor forums in favor of using social media, including reddit. but one hopes, that maybe, just maybe.. they are still occasionally reading their own forums?

 

in any case. another difference between this and WoW s that Blizzard owns warcaft IP. EA and bioware? are just renting it. and it is about to expire in a few years. guess what happens unless they wake up and stop driving their players away? its going to get shut down, just like Warhammer online got shut down, because its TOO expensive to renew the license as pricey as Star Wars on a game that's making relatively little profit and has relatively small population.

 

looking at LOTRO news... I'm finding that they may just be facing this issue as well, seeing as their license to LOTRO expires next year.

 

so yeah... doomsaying is a bit more warranted here, because some of us have SEEN games get shut down. sometimes due to licensing issues, some times, due to profits being too low, sometimes - both.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[DawnAskham]

There is no feeling about this. In the Q4 report last year, EA attributed a large $154 million loss on a few titles, one of which was SWTOR. On the last quarterly report, EA attributed a $1 million decline in their sub based businesses with SWTOR being mentioned as the primary contributor of it.

 

It is obvious EA is massively reducing costs on the title as evidenced by the embarrassingly small amount of new content released in the latest "expansion". The GC System, was the best bandaid they could probably think of to extend people playing the same group content they have been playing for over 2 years.

 

Unless their is a significant uptick in subs and sub retention with the 5.0 release (which I currently find highly suspect), I have a strong feeling EA will be done investing in new content for the game and just let it ride out as long as people are willing to pay for what exists.

 

I can't see EA willing to invest much more into the game at this point, given the comments they have already noted in their financials - none of which shine a positive light on the game's performance.

 

The real question then becomes at what point do they not only stop investing in adding content, however small that content may be, but simply shutter the game to eliminate the expense entirely.

 

They may have an operating model that can support limited content development and ongoing maintenance running a harvest strategy eking out a small ongoing return for months or years, but they could also be close to some sort of red line that if crossed, would push the game into the 'divest / cancel' category from a financial perspective.

[DarthSpuds]

looking at LOTRO news... I'm finding that they may just be facing this issue as well, seeing as their license to LOTRO expires next year.

 

Nope.

 

Standing Stones Games have already extended the license for LOTRO.

 

Cordovan confirmed it the day after the spin-off announcement.

 

Given that SSG will be free from WB's control and that the SSG team is the core of the long-term Turbine LOTRO team, including Made-Of-Lions, then I think things are starting to head in the right direction for LOTRO.

 

And lets face it Lord Of The Rings is just like Star Wars, in competent hands it should be a licence to print money.

 

All The Best

[DarthKartus]

It's kind of sad, especially how swtor is ahead by miles. The other games don't even have a 100 votes. I'm sure this thread will get deleted or locked. Not that the results will make a difference in the current model though.

On the bright side, that means more people are playing SWTOR than the other MMOs, right?

[Forren-Midosea]

On the bright side, that means more people are playing SWTOR than the other MMOs, right?

 

 

WERE were playing

[Jeweledleah]

Nope.

 

Standing Stones Games have already extended the license for LOTRO.

 

Cordovan confirmed it the day after the spin-off announcement.

 

Given that SSG will be free from WB's control and that the SSG team is the core of the long-term Turbine LOTRO team, including Made-Of-Lions, then I think things are starting to head in the right direction for LOTRO.

 

And lets face it Lord Of The Rings is just like Star Wars, in competent hands it should be a licence to print money.

 

All The Best

 

ah, that's good to hear, in my cursory google search I only found that their prior agreement would be expiring in 2017.

 

that said, didn't they mostly stabilize?

 

On the bright side, that means more people are playing SWTOR than the other MMOs, right?

 

I know you are being sarcastic, you know with eye roll and everything, but just in case - no. that doesn't mean fewer people play other MMO's. it means that they don't hate the business model of those games nearly as much as they hate the one swtor has. and with a good reason. I cannot think of another game that punishes its players for not subscribing, while providing very little new content worth continue to subscribe for - quite as much. Even WoW - a game that is subscription only, not only offers players an option to stay subscribed with in game gold while simultaneously providing players a safe, legal way to buy gold - but 99% of the cool cosmetics and the like? are earned through gameplay and gameplay alone. yeah, there are store/trading card mounts and pets. but compared to all the stuff added to gameplay? its minor (and black market auction house that provides a chance to get these items, as well as items that have otherwise been removed from the game? genius gold sink) SWTOR is the game that wants its players to stay subscribed, while simultaneously putting most of the cool new stuff into a cash shop and not even for direct purchase, oh no - gambling packs, and in a meantime providing minimum of new content. certainly lots to love here.

 

P.S. I still have the game installed. I still enjoy playing around with strongholds and original 7 stories (sorry, jedi knight is the only story I didn't enjoy enough to want to replay it) new stuff though... such as it is. blah.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[LordArtemis]

I have seen a bit of rhetoric here and there, especially right after the launch of 5.0, but I have not seen the kind of vitriol I have seen in the past.

 

Plenty of complaints, one might argue one of the largest volumes of complaints, but less diatribe than in the past.

[ekwalizer]

Well, as far as the cash this model brings in, as I mentioned earlier, if it is working it is hard to justify pushing Bioware to change it.

 

I still feel strongly, however, that this game is likely underperforming. Especially considering the high quality (IMO) storytelling and choreography from the Empire expansions.

 

Under performing is an understatement. This game is attached to arguably the most wildly popular intellectual property, period. It is FREE to play and yet 13 out of 17 servers are ghost-towns. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

 

As a manager, this has mismanagement written all over it. But what do you expect when the Lead Producer's previous position with the company was customer service?

[DanNV]

Under performing is an understatement. This game is attached to arguably the most wildly popular intellectual property, period. It is FREE to play and yet 13 out of 17 servers are ghost-towns. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

 

As a manager, this has mismanagement written all over it. But what do you expect when the Lead Producer's previous position with the company was customer service?

 

Yep, exactly. This game should make money hand over fist. The SW IP is one of the most valuable ever and BW can't make good money with it. That should tell you everything you need to know about the dev team and the management of the company.

 

Want examples, they took companions away and promised to bring them ALL back. But they obviously never planned out how to do that. They just fell off the radar and now they have no idea how to fix it. This is something simple a story element they decided on at the beginning of 4.0 and they NEVER planned it out? That's total incompetence. With that kind of management and planning, are we surprised 5.0 is a disaster in game design? The best thing EA could do is hand the game to a different studio.

[TUXs]

Under performing is an understatement. This game is attached to arguably the most wildly popular intellectual property, period. It is FREE to play and yet 13 out of 17 servers are ghost-towns. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

 

As a manager, this has mismanagement written all over it. But what do you expect when the Lead Producer's previous position with the company was customer service?

I could not agree more...especially with the mismanaged portion.

[TrixxieTriss]

Under performing is an understatement. This game is attached to arguably the most wildly popular intellectual property, period. It is FREE to play and yet 13 out of 17 servers are ghost-towns. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

 

As a manager, this has mismanagement written all over it. But what do you expect when the Lead Producer's previous position with the company was customer service?

 

Agreed and what's more, you'd think someone with a customer service back ground would be customer focused.

 

I've rated this thread as excellent

Edited December 28, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[DarthSpuds]

Under performing is an understatement. This game is attached to arguably the most wildly popular intellectual property, period. It is FREE to play and yet 13 out of 17 servers are ghost-towns. That in and of itself is pretty damning.

 

As a manager, this has mismanagement written all over it. But what do you expect when the Lead Producer's previous position with the company was customer service?

 

So Lead Producer is a customer service rep.

And Lead Story writer is responsible for the very worst story anywhere in SWtOR (Trooper).

 

While I concur that there is mismanagement written all over this, some of that clearly lays at the feet of the people who put these two people in position their competencies are not sufficient for.

 

Of course we are perhaps now closer to understanding why Bioware's customer service has always been utter rubbish.

 

All The Best

[TUXs]

And Lead Story writer is responsible for the very worst story anywhere in SWtOR (Trooper).

Hey....I actually like the Trooper story...

[DarthSpuds]

Hey....I actually like the Trooper story...

 

I think it is OK, but it is by far the weak link in the stable of the original class stories.

 

Imagine if a "moral crusader" type trooper had dialogues options to report Garza for her very questionable command actions regarding Ando Prime, and the subsequent "cover up" of Havoc Squad's defection; and that doing so had meaningful consequences.

 

Imagine if a "rebel" trooper could actually side with Harron Tavus in fully exposing Garza for the very despicable character she is; or even defect to join him.

 

Solders are required to uphold the laws of the government they serve OVER AND ABOVE following orders from higher up the chain of command, especially where that chain of command has shown it self to be legally and morally compromised.

 

In short imagine how good the Trooper story could be if it were more than just a one dimensional "Basic Writing 101" level paper.

 

All The Best

Edited December 28, 2016 by DarthSpuds

[PlasmaJohn]

Yep, exactly. This game should make money hand over fist. The SW IP is one of the most valuable ever and BW can't make good money with it. That should tell you everything you need to know about the dev team and the management of the company.

No kidding. I just saw Rogue One and I'm astounded how they completely missed capitalizing on that movie. No, let's flog the players even more since we believe they're into S&M.

 

What BINO should have done:

 

Space PvE, small squad (flashpoint), large squad (raid)

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by PlasmaJohn