Thanks for listening to us

[Kokomah]

Your 100% correct, it is not up to me to determine what gear you would like. You can have whatever gear you want.

 

I'm a million miles from being an elitist player, I don't like progression raiding and I've never entered a HM operation let alone NM. My thing is to play alts, only now I have the opportunity for bis gear just from command crates. I don't need it but I can now get it. I had zero chance of bis loot before, now I have a chance.

 

Why would this upset you and cause you to quit? Surely some chance is better than none. And if you enjoy warzones like I do, now we will get tokens to buy gear from a vendor like we used to.

 

You seem to be happy with a "chance", while I used to be happy while I had the choice. We are different, that's not news. My experience with other games shows that RNG "chance" is not enough and definitely not something I will go again into. I've explained it better here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9172154&postcount=18

 

Just a few points: RNG "chance" does not mean you will ever get anything. You may literally never get any usable loot. You cannot plan your geraing up. You cannot push hard if you want to gear up quickly. "Just a fool`s hope".

All that was possible in the pre-5.0 system with predictable success rate and up to the last before the best gear, which was more than enough for me as a casual player.

[DisIzMe]

This certainly sounds like step in right direction. The devil is in the details,though,and i will wait and see how it is actually implemented before sounding my appreciation.

For an example,they can further reduce tiny chance of set bonus gear dropping from crates to compensate for the "generosity" of only final operation boss as a non-rng set bonus option.

[merovejec]

I actually like this now. They're trying to reward everyone.

 

Well they DID want to reward everyone with the start of 5.0 it just was too grindy and unpredictable. I mean yes, you dont do Ops or PVP but still after a long grind will get the highest possible gear.

 

This new suggestion lets you get gear more precise and for alts too, thats the big change.

[Mowermanx]

My issue with calling CXP boosts pay to win is two-fold. One about the 'paying' part and one about the 'winning' part. It doesn't get much more thorough than that, I guess. The only thing I don't have a problem with is the word 'to', I mean, the only purpose it serves is being the bridge linking these two misconceptions together... then again.

 

But before I get into that, the CXP Boosts were not an implicit part of his argument. They either condemn it or reveal that his problem is with RNG, not CXP boosts.

 

So, you can't just buy the command tokens that supposedly make it p2w. (for now, "buy" will refer to buying the 25% boost, since you can't outright buy any endgame gear.) What your buying is command ranks. If what you get from that command rank is considered p2w then command tokens are p2w and so are the command crates, because both come directly from earning command ranks which is the thing that can be bought.

 

Which is NOT what was said in the quoted point A. So the only way point A could still be true is if it is the RNG that keeps it from being p2w. In which case Aeristash isn't complaining about p2w at all, but the "removal" of RNG. (removal in quotes because its not actually gone. There's just an additional method to obtaining gear.)

 

To me, It doesn't matter whether the reward is RNG or not because everyone's dealing with the same RNG. Your still paying for a 25% increase in rewards and then the RNG comes after, you still payed and received 25% more. (Which also means getting to a higher command crate tier sooner.) If you think that 25% more RNG is not a great advantage, then why spend your money on it?

 

Plus he shows the complete ridiculousness of his argument with statements like, "Where is the glory in simply buying ones prize at will?" You can't buy set pieces at will with the announced changes; a 25% boost means in the time someone else earns four command ranks, you will have gotten five. But someone else will have earned six because of skill or efficient farming or another reason and you can't just buy your way past them. It's impossible to pay your way past them. They win. and paying for CXP boosts won't help any more than the already accounted for 25% increase in CXP. So you only payed for convenience.

 

And that's just it the CXP boost is a convenience item, like the legacy unlock for decreased quick travel cooldown, or increased XP for being a sub. One is something you pay for, one is not; neither is considered p2w because they don't give you any endgame advantage, they just let you do things a bit faster, that's the key, FASTER. You can still do the same things the same way without any convenience items AND someone will probably still be faster than you because they're more skilled, farming CXP more efficiently, playing more hours, etc.

The fact that it took you all this time trying to explain and contorting definitions to suit your narrative, its safe to say its muddy water to say the least.

 

Another reason they're not p2w is the methods of acquiring them. The pay portion of p2w.

 

So if the boosts are p2w and your buying them from the CM with your subscription reward, does that make having a subscription p2w?

 

Or If the boosts are p2w and your buying them off the GTN with credits earned in-game, does that make - what, playing the game p2w??

 

You do realize the ridiculousness of that statement, right? So clearly the boosts are not p2w because you can get them in-game without paying. You can't buy something with money to get ahead and people are forced to also pay money to buy it or get left behind. Because they can be bought off the GTN by people just playing the game. (And paying for the game since GC is subscriber only. If any part of this system is p2w it's that you HAVE to subscribe for it.)

 

There's too many ways to EARN (indirectly by acquiring a way to buy them from various sources) CXP boosts with too little benefit to how much you will still have to do to EARN endgame gear.

At least somebody gets it.

You're treading that same muddy water with this line of thinking, as you could safely use this argument to defend them for putting gear in the shop, but eh, you can buy it from the GTN, so it doesn't exclude anyone right?

 

You're probably right, in that this isn't p2w as per the term being used in some asian games, but its a new level of money grabbing douchebaggery that doesn't belong in a subscription game. And before you bring it up, no, non subs are not apart of this system.

[eartharioch]

But before I get into that, the CXP Boosts were not an implicit part of his argument. They either condemn it or reveal that his problem is with RNG, not CXP boosts.

CXP boosts are an implicit part of his argument because he was talking about Command Crates and CXP Boosts directly affect Command Crate acquisition. His not mentioning CXP Boosts doesn't make them not part of the discussion. Ignoring facts doesn't mean that it's not fair for other people to bring them up.

 

snip

 

No matter how much skill or time you put in, BW will sell you (for cash) the ability the get more Command Crates than somebody playing the exact same way who doesn't pay. It doesn't matter how many other ways there are to get the Boosts, BW is effectively selling end game gear. Pay. To. Win.

 

That doesn't mean that it's particularly *strong* p2w, and I'm not saying people shouldn't play this game because of it, but there's a difference between denying something exists and debating what impact its existence has.

[Quraswren]

You seem to be happy with a "chance", while I used to be happy while I had the choice. We are different, that's not news. My experience with other games shows that RNG "chance" is not enough and definitely not something I will go again into. I've explained it better here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9172154&postcount=18

 

Just a few points: RNG "chance" does not mean you will ever get anything. You may literally never get any usable loot. You cannot plan your geraing up. You cannot push hard if you want to gear up quickly. "Just a fool`s hope".

All that was possible in the pre-5.0 system with predictable success rate and up to the last before the best gear, which was more than enough for me as a casual player.

 

Very well said. Two thumbs up on this post.

[RagnarAugustus]

They half listened which os better than usual.

 

Unfortunately, they had a working system and replaced it and instead of putting it back, they have to do something different so they can introduce more bugs and stll keep the RNG we don't want. At least it's less RNG.

 

Exactly, it was a half measure, at least where operations come in. We need to keep the feedback coming and continue to tell the devs that we want 4.0 style Operations where each boss has a known loot table dropping a known unassembled operations armor token. This RNG unassembled ops token drop is NOT what we've been asking for - it's a step in the right direction but not what we want nor what our feedback stated that we wanted. Raiders do not want RNG!

Edited December 16, 2016 by RagnarAugustus

[Sportiva]

I guess I am encouraged ... but from what I've read on Dulfy, I am still a little confused as what this new system will really be.

 

Will the GC ranks be meaningless now? If they are meaningless, why do the levels scale-up to become harder to achieve. It seems a little convoluted and will make players chose to play toons who have lower CXP requirements to get the next new GC pack.

 

The other question that I have is if the last boss of operations drop a guaranteed item are they going to drop only a single item or multiple items? There are 8 operations if I counted correctly, but we have 14 gear slots (12 unique items ... 2 implants & 2 relics) on our characters. Will certain end bosses drop Chestpiece & earpiece as an example or will some gear pieces not be guaranteed to drop from a final boss?

[Andryah]

Well they DID want to reward everyone with the start of 5.0 it just was too grindy and unpredictable. I mean yes, you dont do Ops or PVP but still after a long grind will get the highest possible gear.

 

This new suggestion lets you get gear more precise and for alts too, thats the big change.

 

I think you are underestimating the grind you will face with this. Instead of one grind, you now have two. And if token requirements are high for matching with an unassembled item token, you may actually find out it is now worse.

 

Out of the frying pan and into the fire is a definite possibility here. Time will tell... we will know by late January.

 

I advise everyone to spend some quality time analyzing what they are actually doing, and not doing, and to temper expectations until we see the exchange prices on the vendor.

[SithKoriandr]

Do we consider this listening? I'm not sure this is listening.

 

Players have asked for companions to be customized again, that hasn't happened. Return to class storylines, that hasn't happened.

 

They didn't change it because players asked. They changed it because of some other reason than players asking for a change. Unless, people were leaving in droves and that is considered asking.

[ChadSkywalkur]

The fact that it took you all this time trying to explain and contorting definitions to suit your narrative, its safe to say its muddy water to say the least.

 

The reason had more to do with the fact of it being three in the morning than anything else.

 

And what definitions, pray tell, did I distort? I guess explaining that may have taken "all that time" instead of just making dismissive statements.

 

----------

You're treading that same muddy water with this line of thinking, as you could safely use this argument to defend them for putting gear in the shop, but eh, you can buy it from the GTN, so it doesn't exclude anyone right?

You're right about this part. That's what I get for tacking on last minute ideas at 3AM

[ChadSkywalkur]

CXP boosts are an implicit part of his argument because he was talking about Command Crates and CXP Boosts directly affect Command Crate acquisition. His not mentioning CXP Boosts doesn't make them not part of the discussion. Ignoring facts doesn't mean that it's not fair for other people to bring them up.

 

Yes, I do know what implicit means, I wasn't ignoring it. The point there was if CXP boosts are p2w after these changes, then how were they not before?

 

No matter how much skill or time you put in, BW will sell you (for cash) the ability the get more Command Crates than somebody playing the exact same way who doesn't pay. It doesn't matter how many other ways there are to get the Boosts, BW is effectively selling end game gear. Pay. To. Win.

 

That doesn't mean that it's particularly *strong* p2w, and I'm not saying people shouldn't play this game because of it, but there's a difference between denying something exists and debating what impact its existence has.

 

You are either paying to win or you're not. I think the difference of opinion here comes down to definition. The ability to play the same as someone else and get rewards a little faster is CONVENIENCE. Synonyms: expedience, advantage, timeliness.

 

If they were actually selling end game gear like you say they effectively are, than anyone would be able to buy a full set of gear without playing the game. That's the strictest definition of p2w (within reason and specific to SWTOR endgame gear).

 

One could say that while not providing gear directly just for money, but instead offering something that makes it so easy to get gear (which obviously means that it is not easy to get gear without it) that it goes beyond simple convenience being bought and you essentially have to pay to have any chance of keeping up is also p2w.

 

But the CXP boosts don't take things that far; a "not strong p2w" by your definition.

Edited December 16, 2016 by ChadSkywalkur

[eartharioch]

Yes, I do know what implicit means, I wasn't ignoring it. The point there was if CXP boosts are p2w after these changes, then how were they not before?

That was actually the point Khevar and I were making -- we were rejecting somebody else's argument that the tokens make the system pay-to-win.

 

[snip]

 

But the CXP boosts don't take things that far; a "not strong p2w" by your definition.

 

I agree that it isn't very strong p2w, (compared to what I've seen reported for Asian grindfests), but it is strong enough for me to call it p2w and be uncomfortable with it. In fact, rereading the proposed suggestions, if BW puts valor restrictions on PVP players, that would make the Valor Boosts uncomfortably (for me) p2w.

 

Part of what makes it bad (IMO) is that only subs can get CXP/Crates, so it's not like offering F2P/Preferred a'la carte pricing, it's flat out a way to gouge more $ from subs.