@Devs: How the CXP system is killing my love of this game

[Ardarell_Solo]

In short: You are making players do activities that they don’t like doing.

 

In a game. In a hobby that’s meant to distract them from lives that constantly make them do things that they don’t like all the time ;-)

 

One of the most fun things about playing an RPG is improving the character you identify with. You want to make him the great hero you envision and see the effect of it. In an MMO part of the fun is being competitive.

 

With CXP being competitive means collecting CXP fast, so you can do more difficult stuff.

 

In my case this means raiding, pushing the effectiveness of my guild’s raid group, also managing the social aspects of being a GM. The most efficient way to keep doing that now is NOT doing ops. It’s grinding PVP and 20 CXP mobs, abusing this mechanic.

 

In livestreams you said you wanted people to play the game’s content in an “intended” way. But SWTOR at the moment has to many flaws concerning lockout system, instancing system, phase system: People will always find ways to do other things than playing the content the way you intended it. That’s why the safest and fairest way of rewarding players is tieing those rewards to the things that are challenging: Bosses.

 

I see how CXP is meant to be a fair system to every kind of player, also eliminating loot rolls in raiding groups. But right now it’s failing.

 

 

Here’s what would help:

 

 

• Have OPs bosses, Master FP bosses and Veteran Uprising bosses drop gear tokens in relation to how difficult they are to kill. In PVP make ranked a lot more effective, punish going afk in Warzones and make good contributions count.
   
   
  
• Use CXP as an additional supplementary system, but make it way less efficient for gearing.
  

 

I’ve been playing SWTOR since shortly after launch. It always annoyed me how a lot of players kept complaining about every single expansion in advance and systems they claimed would be bad turned out alright, once they went live. A lot of improvements have been done to SWTOR, absolutely! Even if not every minor change players wished or hoped for could be implemented, but that’s understandable.

 

However, this is the first time that I think a core element of this game has completely gone wrong.

 

 

On a side note: RNG is not a problem for me. Also I think that it used to be too easy gearing alts without ever having to play them. These are two main areas of criticism but I think those are just side effects of a system that’s flawed at its basics.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Ardarell_Solo

[Betterclass]

In short: You are making players do activities that they don’t like doing.

 

Noone is making anyone do anything they don't like doing. If you don't like to PvP, don't PvP. It's really that simple. Get your CXP from SM ops.

 

One of the most fun things about playing an RPG is improving the character you identify with. You want to make him the great hero you envision and see the effect of it. In an MMO part of the fun is being competitive.

 

With CXP being competitive means collecting CXP fast, so you can do more difficult stuff.

 

In my case this means raiding, pushing the effectiveness of my guild’s raid group, also managing the social aspects of being a GM. The most efficient way to keep doing that now is NOT doing ops. It’s grinding PVP and 20 CXP mobs, abusing this mechanic.

 

Who are you competing with? Raid bosses? Are you competing with other guilds to get 5 year old ops done before they do? It sounds like your only "love" is for efficiency and not the game. If that's the case there are plenty other MMO's out there with more efficient ways to gear up.

[omaan]

In short: You are making players do activities that they don’t like doing.

 

In a game. In a hobby that’s meant to distract them from lives that constantly make them do things that they don’t like all the time ;-)

 

One of the most fun things about playing an RPG is improving the character you identify with. You want to make him the great hero you envision and see the effect of it. In an MMO part of the fun is being competitive.

 

With CXP being competitive means collecting CXP fast, so you can do more difficult stuff.

 

In my case this means raiding, pushing the effectiveness of my guild’s raid group, also managing the social aspects of being a GM. The most efficient way to keep doing that now is NOT doing ops. It’s grinding PVP and 20 CXP mobs, abusing this mechanic.

 

In livestreams you said you wanted people to play the game’s content in an “intended” way. But SWTOR at the moment has to many flaws concerning lockout system, instancing system, phase system: People will always find ways to do other things than playing the content the way you intended it. That’s why the safest and fairest way of rewarding players is tieing those rewards to the things that are challenging: Bosses.

 

I see how CXP is meant to be a fair system to every kind of player, also eliminating loot rolls in raiding groups. But right now it’s failing.

 

 

Here’s what would help:

 

 

• Have OPs bosses, Master FP bosses and Veteran Uprising bosses drop gear tokens in relation to how difficult they are to kill. In PVP make ranked a lot more effective, punish going afk in Warzones and make good contributions count.
   
   
  
• Use CXP as an additional supplementary system, but make it way less efficient for gearing.
  

 

I’ve been playing SWTOR since shortly after launch. It always annoyed me how a lot of players kept complaining about every single expansion in advance and systems they claimed would be bad turned out alright, once they went live. A lot of improvements have been done to SWTOR, absolutely! Even if not every minor change players wished or hoped for could be implemented, but that’s understandable.

 

However, this is the first time that I think a core element of this game has completely gone wrong.

 

 

On a side note: RNG is not a problem for me. Also I think that it used to be too easy gearing alts without ever having to play them. These are two main areas of criticism but I think those are just side effects of a system that’s flawed at its basics.

 

If you suggest to provide drops from pve bosses you must also consider it for pvp too. "Make ranked a lot more effective" is too wage and not understandable, there musn't be any disbalance in matters of gearing between pve and pvp

[icemoneyboi]

Noone is making anyone do anything they don't like doing. If you don't like to PvP, don't PvP. It's really that simple. Get your CXP from SM ops.

 

You can get MORE CXP from 20 minutes of PvP than 2 hours of Operations. Even if you hate PvP it seems stupid not to do it.

[ShardODarkness]

I think the problem is the GCXP grind, you have to grind it out for every character you have, and with a limit of 14 chars per server as well as an inability to move the rewards along your account...I can understand the frustration.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

OP is certainly right.

but of course as soon as people even mention bringing tokens to flashpoint and operation bosses, PvPers feel that they'd get short end of the stick. So there must be a way to allow PvPers get the tokens as well... a way that doesn't involve ops, since they're PvPers after all lol:D:D:D

what exactly is this way? well how the hell should i know, i'm not a dev.

bottom line is: this can't stay the way it is atm.:D:D

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I think the problem is the GCXP grind, you have to grind it out for every character you have, and with a limit of 14 chars per server as well as an inability to move the rewards along your account...I can understand the frustration.

you can in fact get additional toon slots and have up to 42 characters per server >.>

[Ardarell_Solo]

Noone is making anyone do anything they don't like doing. If you don't like to PvP, don't PvP. It's really that simple. Get your CXP from SM ops.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'll elaborate why it's not helping, though.

 

Our guild has a raiding group going which has cleared all content in all difficulty modes in all content cycles. We haven't been among the first (mostly one of the last, actually), but we always managed. Meaning that all the bosses have been downed numerous times.

 

Next thing is, this is a grown-ups guild with people having jobs and families. Players' love for the game keeps them going though, going to great lengths to find the time still playing together. What players lacked in time they made up for in skill and dedication. But it's been getting harder and harder keeping motivation high enough for the lack of new ops. Guild only didn't fall apart, because there's a number of players who are also friends and kept going for that reason. I've been having trouble keeping things running though, because over a year of no new raids is a problem.

 

So now we're playing bosses at the same level of skill and group coordination as we used to in the last three content cycles and we can't meet dps requirements that were never a problem. No wonder, since SM item rating is now 6 levels above last NiM item level. This has gone widely unnoticed, but it's another major change: In 3.0 e.g. Nim item level was 4 levels higher than the new story mode rating. And this had always been the case before. Combine this new gap with the fact that you can't specifically gear the group anymore by running ops and making the most of the skill people in the group bring to the table.

 

You might say "Well bad luck then", and you'd be right. I'm just saying that for the type of players I described, and those are the types of players I've been playing the game with for the last 4 years, this system is a huge setback. Chances are, some people won't care, or, as you are saying: Well, just play the game more. But there a players with limited time and until 5.0. that could be made up for by a certain amount of playing skill and group coherence. 5.0 put that to an end and that frustrates a lot of people. I'd not be posting this, if we were the only ones feeling that way. most of the people on T3-M4 that I communicate with regularly on voice chat or ingame are saying the exact same thing.

 

Who are you competing with? Raid bosses? Are you competing with other guilds to get 5 year old ops done before they do? It sounds like your only "love" is for efficiency and not the game. If that's the case there are plenty other MMO's out there with more efficient ways to gear up.

 

I'm well aware that other MMO's out there have different focuses. But I'm not the MMO hopper type. I actually never played an MMO before SWTOR and probably never will after. Our guild is basically made up of hardcore Star Wars fans. Episode IV was the first movie I ever saw in cinema when it was released in 1978. I've been a fanboy ever since, even if that term didn't exist then :-) If that weren't the case, our guild would probably have disbanded and went for WOW or FF. I would assume that devs are interested in how Star Wars fans perceive the way their franchise MMO plays atm and that's the feedback I'm providing.

 

As for competition: In a sports way of thinking that's not necessarily a matter of a direct opponent. I think players are looking for a chance to play their toons the best way possible. Atm some encounters are not playable at all at certain difficulty modes, which is a setback. And the only way to overcome it is grind stuff you don't like or exploit flaws in the system.

 

Or, as you are suggesting, leave this MMO (before I do that I'd rather voice constructive criticism), or invest more time, which is not an option for some players. You might say that this is a very specific case and a small number of players, but from the conversations I'm having, I don't think so.

 

 

I suspect one of the biggest problems atm is making design decisions based on metrics. But the fact that people are doing certrain activities does not mean that they actually enjoy doing them. I'm afraid when devs look at what people are doing in the game since 5.0, they might draw the wrong conclusions. Hardly any of the players I'm talking to say that he or she is enjoying their activities more than before, it's the opposite.

 

What I mean by "competition" is that people want to develop the effectiveness of their character. If a game tells them the best way to do it is doing stuff you don't like, you won't like playing the game, even if you still do it.

 

If you didn't care about gearing your toon at all, no problem with the CXP system. But in my experience gearing your character is and will always be a core feature of playing an MMO. So best gear for the activity you're enjoying should come directly from that exact activity. If you change that, you're no hitting the mark with one of the core motivation points of your players.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Ardarell_Solo

[ShardODarkness]

you can in fact get additional toon slots and have up to 42 characters per server >.>

 

Oh yeah, I know...just figured grinding across 14 characters was bad enough.

[Ardarell_Solo]

If you suggest to provide drops from pve bosses you must also consider it for pvp too. "Make ranked a lot more effective" is too wage and not understandable, there musn't be any disbalance in matters of gearing between pve and pvp

 

Absolutely! But that should be thought through by PvP pros and I am not one of them. I'm absolutely sure dedicated PvP players can come op with an adequate system for their favourite activity.

 

EDIT: If any of you PvP players or somebody who's familiar with what players are saying on the PvP forums, have a good idea, please do post a suitable suggestion here. I will gladly include it and highlight in the OP.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Ardarell_Solo

[blkdmnd]

Or, as you are suggesting, leave this MMO (before I do that I'd rather voice constructive criticism), or invest more time, which is not an option for some players. You might say that this is a very specific case and a small number of players, but from the conversations I'm having, I don't think so.

 

Fully agree

[Alssaran]

You can get MORE CXP from 20 minutes of PvP than 2 hours of Operations. Even if you hate PvP it seems stupid not to do it.

 

But his point stays relevant nonetheless:

 

You are not forced to do anything at all. There is no competition for fast rewards and server first kills in this game. You have approx. 3-4 months to properly gear up until the next "large group activity" (quoted from the developer livestream) hits the servers.

 

If I don't want to do PvP right now, I'll simply not do it. I'll just pick up my smuggler and do some GSF or plantery missions.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Alssaran

[Tsetso]

You can get MORE CXP from 20 minutes of PvP than 2 hours of Operations. Even if you hate PvP it seems stupid not to do it.

 

If i play the game to get gear yes, if i gear up to play the game no.

[ludoviccb]

But his point stays relevant nonetheless:

 

You are not forced to do anything at all. There is no competition for fast rewards and server first kills in this game. You have approx. 3-4 months to properly gear up until the next "large group activity" (quoted from the developer livestream) hits the servers.

 

If I don't want to do PvP right now, I'll simply not do it. I'll just pick up my smuggler and do some GSF or plantery missions.

 

If another 7 people need you to be geared to do the content, there is that pressure to go fast to go back to what you were doing before 5.0. If you lag behind a lot, there is no way to catch up with your group.

 

So for PvE, you're in competition with the rest of your group to level your Command Ranks. If you're command rank 40 when the rest of your group is at 300 and they got someone also at 300 wanting a spot on the raid team, you might get kicked of the group since you didn't provide the effort of grinding content outside of operations. This is a form of inside group competition based off peer pressure.

 

For PvP, you're in direct competition with other players that are gearing up, if you're interested in being competitive, you need to follow the gearing up or stay behind.

[Foambreaker]

tl;dr

 

Raiders need special gear

[Ardarell_Solo]

tl;dr

 

Raiders need special gear

 

There's no need to go all polemics, I'd never disregard other types of players the way you just did.

 

I'm just saying that for people with a limited amount of game time who want to enjoy their favourite activity in the game this update doesn't let them do this the way the game allowed them to do it for 5 years. Make of that what you will, I just hope devs care about it.

 

There's nothing

 

special

 

about me or the friends I'm playing with. 5.0 just happens to block us from some of our favourite raiding encounters atm. And I don't think all of my guildies factually CAN find the time to make up for that by grinding the long hours it takes to get the proper gear for it since 5.0.

 

Again I'd not be taking the effort to write TLDR stuff, if I hadn't had so many players from my server say the exact same thing. Disregard it as you wish, that is a fact.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Ardarell_Solo

[Foambreaker]

There is nothing preventing you from going raiding.

 

It is not about raiding, it is about not getting rewards that make raiders feel like special snowflakes.

 

That is why this is called the Snowflake Rebellion :rolleyes::p

[Alssaran]

So for PvE, you're in competition with the rest of your group to level your Command Ranks.

 

I'm not sure that's a guild you want to be part of. My guild (hard mode PvE and PvP games) has never said that anyone needs to be geared until X. We level in our own pace and doing what we want to do. Once we have enough equipment to continue, we will do that. If you have people pressuring you to catch up, you're not in a healthy environment. I did that in Burning Crusade and I have to admit that I would NEVER do it again.

 

This is a form of inside group competition based off peer pressure.

 

Then I would advice you to step away from said peer pressure. Being "forced" to do certain activities in order to keep your place in any make-believe social groups is not what games are about.

 

I'm playing one of the most grinding heavy games on the side (BDO). My ex-guild said I need to farm more every day (5-6 hours a day) in order to get to level 60 and be viable in sieges. I stepped away and looked for another guild. Those people invite everyone to certain WB/PvP activities.

 

For PvP, you're in direct competition with other players that are gearing up, if you're interested in being competitive, you need to follow the gearing up or stay behind.

 

Which is, again, only if you place a special value on being "competitive" when doing anything.

 

Don't get me wrong: I dislike GC. Before anyone accuses me of White Knighting anything. The simple issue remains that everything you describe is something you (subjectively) decide for yourself. Bioware isn't making you stick in a competitive environment when you don't feel like doing it. They aren't the people telling you that you have to deal with that peer pressure.

 

For people who play this game just to play a game, all those factors rarely apply. As I mentioned before, I did my own Heroic raiding in WotLK and competitive raiding in BC. Nobody was ever forcing me into doing anything. I choose to participate in the grind and the social pressure. I was able to make the decision to just play the game at any point during those years.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Alssaran

[casirabit]

Just a comment on the command ranks.

 

How are you accessing the content? Normally or using the command bar where you chose what you want to do.

 

I noticed last night if I went and did heroics normally I just got 20 per heroic . But I noticed last night if you click the planetary, operation, fp, uprising, you actually get a daily item where you can get an additional points for your command rank which increases how fast you can achieve the rank. Only one that I didn't see a pop up box was for the chapters, even though sometimes they are listed as bonus, so not sure about those at the moment.

 

It was taking longer the first time but last night when I did this it took less time to advance rank and even if you do the heroics they give you a certain number to do, like on voss 3 instead of 4 and even the daily areas are included but even those you don't have to do all of them, normally like 5 of them.

[Toraak]

Noone is making anyone do anything they don't like doing. If you don't like to PvP, don't PvP. It's really that simple. Get your CXP from SM ops.

 

 

 

Who are you competing with? Raid bosses? Are you competing with other guilds to get 5 year old ops done before they do? It sounds like your only "love" is for efficiency and not the game. If that's the case there are plenty other MMO's out there with more efficient ways to gear up.

 

I'm afraid, as a raider getting an Ops group going for 5.0, it forces PvE players to PvP (there is no doubt about it). PvP is one of the fastest ways of getting CXP. So yes the OP has a point. PvE activities (especially Operations with lockout issue) needs a Massive boost to CXP to compensate for this. PvP is something that can be spammed all day long that gives good CXP for the time invested, where Operations take much longer for just a slightly increased CXP. 800 CXP for an Op that may take 45 mins depending on the group, 600-700 CXP for a 15 min WZ that has no lockout.

 

If you want fast command ranks PvP is the only way to really go.

[eartharioch]

If you suggest to provide drops from pve bosses you must also consider it for pvp too. "Make ranked a lot more effective" is too wage and not understandable, there musn't be any disbalance in matters of gearing between pve and pvp

 

Solution for PVP w/out drops:

o Make Bolster work (improve Bolster to put everybody in Tier 3 version of what they are wearing)

o Sell BiS 224 gear with set bonuses for a low amount of credits (and a *low* valor rank, something that could be obtained in a few matches /dailies/ weekly)

 

There, PVP isn't affected by gear and "PVP gear" is minimally useful to raiders. This would actually be very close to what we had 4.x (but with a cleaner Bolster system).

[Ardarell_Solo]

There is nothing preventing you from going raiding.

 

It is not about raiding, it is about not getting rewards that make raiders feel like special snowflakes.

 

That is why this is called the Snowflake Rebellion :rolleyes::p

 

You are obviously not interested in improving players' experience in the game which is what this thread is about.

 

I know how raiders are often labelled elitist and snowflaky and I've been thinking this about many of them myself. I invite you to come to our Teamspeak server and talk to my guildies and see if they really are elitist snowflakers and listen what they have to say about that. Or you can ask any of the players on T3-M4 if they think "TtJtA" is an arrogant, elitist, snowflake kind of guild with their noses up in Coruscant's sky - or maybe not so much. If you still think that is where this post is coming from after that, ok. But I don't think you will. If you don't do either and still put labels on people you've never even talked to, let alone met, I apologize for not taking you too seriously.

[Foambreaker]

You are obviously not interested in improving players' experience in the game which is what this thread is about.

 

I know how raiders are often labelled elitist and snowflaky and I've been thinking this about many of them myself. I invite you to come to our Teamspeak server and talk to my guildies and see if they really are elitist snowflakers and listen what they have to say about that. Or you can ask any of the players on T3-M4 if they think "TtJtA" is an arrogant, elitist, snowflake kind of guild with their noses up in Coruscant's sky - or maybe not so much. If you still think that is where this post is coming from after that, ok. But I don't think you will. If you don't do either and still put labels on people you've never even talked to, let alone met, I apologize for not taking you too seriously.

 

Taken seriously? Hello, do you really think I am taking you seriously? You and yours have plastered the forums with all these threads and in the end it is about nothing more than ego, everything else posted is spin. You can play the game the same as always, you just don't get that exclusive gear that makes raiders feel special.

 

You are not special anymore.

[Ardarell_Solo]

You are not special anymore.

 

That's wrong. We never WERE special in the first place. We just enjoy doing stuff we can't atm a lot, which makes some of my good friends a bit sad. Which you obviously don't give a damn about.

 

How's life on planet "no regards for people with different wishes and hopes than your own ones"? Must be very "special" there...

 

And what exactly is it that you didn't understand about labelling people you havent't even met? You're behaving like one disrespectful human being that doesn't see the actual people behind what's written on the internet. I'd really like to see you say the stuff you just wrote to 12 grown-up people face to face one by one. Let's see them emoticons on your real face then.

 

And even if everyone "plastering the forums" were acutally the egotistic maniacs you, oh self entitled high judge of this fourms, have verdicted them to be: How would the system proposed hurt any of other player types? We're actually looking for a system that respects everybody's playstyle, that includes yours.

 

@Everyone else who is actually contributing on topic: Thanks for your feedback and additional thoughts!

[keimox]

Taken seriously? Hello, do you really think I am taking you seriously? You and yours have plastered the forums with all these threads and in the end it is about nothing more than ego, everything else posted is spin. You can play the game the same as always, you just don't get that exclusive gear that makes raiders feel special.

 

You are not special anymore.

It has nothing to do with "exclusive" raid gear. It has nothing to do with grinding. It has everything to do with RNG.

I wouldn't mind if GC would be like those reputation grinds like Gree with vendors that sell gear. Or if those boxes would only drop gear.

 

 

Also one thing. What happens with this system in next expansion? Reset for everyone or being removed and replaced with something else.