RNG is Gambling

[SithKoriandr]

As someone who grew up with an obsessive compulsive gambler (aka gambling addict) and who himself became a gambling addict in his youth I honestly believe that the GC system is a form of gambling. Only I'm gambling with my time, not money.

I have stayed clear of the cartel market after I spent my car payment on hypercrates. I felt that same rush I used to feel when I was playing the slot machines or watching a race or a ball game I had bet on. I spent an outrageous amount of money in the Cartel Market that first month it was open... I gambled away so much real world money, for what? The chance to "win" some shiny in game bling. I was stupid.

 

With the Galactic command system I'm now gambling with my time. My wife had to pull me away from the computer at 3am earlier this week because I had been grinding away for about 16 hours trying to get that next crate. I wasn't willing to leave the chair, I had to keep doing heroics to try fill that gold bar and get that next satisfying pop up window telling me I had a new crate.

 

Galactic Command is a gambling system, disguised as a frustratingly addictive video game mechanic plain and simple. I felt the call of that old demon around CR4 and I now know that I can't keep pulling that lever hoping for my next big payout. What makes me really sad is that children play this game and you are teaching them that gambling is a "fun" way of life.

 

If we're going to look at it that way. Relationships are a gamble. Kids are a gamble. Jobs are a gamble.

[VirtualMorrigan]

As someone who grew up with an obsessive compulsive gambler (aka gambling addict) and who himself became a gambling addict in his youth I honestly believe that the GC system is a form of gambling. Only I'm gambling with my time, not money.

I have stayed clear of the cartel market after I spent my car payment on hypercrates. I felt that same rush I used to feel when I was playing the slot machines or watching a race or a ball game I had bet on. I spent an outrageous amount of money in the Cartel Market that first month it was open... I gambled away so much real world money, for what? The chance to "win" some shiny in game bling. I was stupid.

 

With the Galactic command system I'm now gambling with my time. My wife had to pull me away from the computer at 3am earlier this week because I had been grinding away for about 16 hours trying to get that next crate. I wasn't willing to leave the chair, I had to keep doing heroics to try fill that gold bar and get that next satisfying pop up window telling me I had a new crate.

 

Galactic Command is a gambling system, disguised as a frustratingly addictive video game mechanic plain and simple. I felt the call of that old demon around CR4 and I now know that I can't keep pulling that lever hoping for my next big payout. What makes me really sad is that children play this game and you are teaching them that gambling is a "fun" way of life.

 

I have similar experiences with something similar in my family. For what it's worth, I think it's courageous of you to write of your own experience like that. I see where you are coming from. It's, maybe, something that has to be seen in RL to be understood

[Soul_of_Flames]

I always defined gambling as placing a stake for a chance to win an even larger stake back.

 

IE, it's not gambling if you cannot get a return on what you put in.

 

It's the reason why I don't consider Cartel Packs to be gambling any more than I consider playing games at a video arcade to be gambling. Simply put, for a Cartel Pack to be considered gambling it would have to have a chance of giving you Cartel Coins in the packs themselves.

 

Just being randomly generated does not make it gambling. You have to consider what is put in and what is taken away. Can you get a return on the time spent to earn Command Crates? If yes, then it's gambling. If no, then it's not.

[AscendingSky]

I actually just don't get why developers have such a hard on for loot crates and rng boxes now. They are in almost every game now and some do them good other do them terrible. I don't mind rng boxes like overwatch, but when the main point of the game revolves around them like they do in tor and wow now It just becomes distasteful.

 

Because it's a way of throttling content that doesn't take the developers any effort. Make all worthwhile gear come from RNG boxes with a tiny drop rate, and it's going to be a long time before a significant portion of the player base gets geared out, months if not years.

[RowanThursday]

Yeah, it's designed to be compulsive. Given that gamers tend to have a higher number of obsessive-compulsives in our ranks than non-gamers, it, while not as reprehensible as the cartel hypercrates, is still pretty irresponsible.

 

Oh, wait, sorry, I mean, it's "fun" and "exciting". I forgot, finding fault with it isn't the way my brain is meant to be played.

 

 

It's almost as exciting as three hallways of Skytroopers at once.

 

[AscendingSky]

RNG is many things, but gambling isn't one of them. There's no risk involved, and once you dig deep enough, you will realize there's no reward either. Otherwise, our entire life is gambling...

 

Which does sound about right, ok

 

Aha, but now you can buy boosters to get your RNG boxes faster! Which only last 3 hours and cost real money. So all the people inclined towards gambling addictions will just spend their money on CXP boost after CXP boost to try to speed up their next chance to spin the Wheel of Mostly Garbage.

[AscendingSky]

That's the thing, when one activity begins to interfere with another that is when it becomes a problem. You ditched class so you could keep going in a game. I stayed up until 3am on a day when I had to work the next day all for 1 more turn, one more level, 1 more crate.

The addiction is the problem, the game is the source and the mindset of, just one more is fed by the developers and we are all ok with it, we are all fine with feeding this addiction, this harmless vice.

To what end?

Where do we draw the line at companies exploiting human weakness?

Where is the line between ethical and unethical exploitation?

 

Your posts about your experience with gambling addiction I find very brave and insightful. I wish more people would listen to you. They would rather argue about re-defining 'gambling' than addressing the fact RNG crates (both the ones you pay for and the ones you get through playing) hits that same compulsion, pushes the same button for people inclined to gambling addictions in the first place.

[doelow]

Your posts about your experience with gambling addiction I find very brave and insightful. I wish more people would listen to you. They would rather argue about re-defining 'gambling' than addressing the fact RNG crates (both the ones you pay for and the ones you get through playing) hits that same compulsion, pushes the same button for people inclined to gambling addictions in the first place.

 

I agree. It's a conversation worth having, but people treat it with such contempt. It's a very "American" reaction in my mind. Very contemptuous of the sick/disabled/troubled. It all ties back into the same capitalist thought that drives systems that are designed to exploit people's tendencies towards impulse buying and addiction though. It's so ubiquitous that no one questions it because it's virtually everywhere. Fast food restaurants constantly pushing you to "upsize" for a dollar more is a good example.

 

Reductionist arguments that reduce gambling to virtually any activity in life (someone in the thread earlier compared getting out of bed in the morning to gambling) is evidence of how whimsical and out of control people really feel about their lives. They are just OK with it. The practices of Bioware are just one small pond in the quagmire that has become Western ethics.

[livingdeadjedi]

I saw one of the devs drive past in a Ferrari the other day, purchased with the packs I had bought over the years. They never even gave me a lift into town :

[Vodamin]

utilizing this logic, almost everything is gambling.

 

Life itself is gambling.

 

What kind of statement is this?

When you work you know exactly how much you make every single hour.

When you are about to make a cake with eggs, some flour, sugar and milk, you are absolutely aware what the outcome of your effort is going to be - an effin cake!

This isn't gambling. Most of the stuff that you do on daily basis are not gambling, not even close.

[Eshvara]

What kind of statement is this?

When you work you know exactly how much you make every single hour.

When you are about to make a cake with eggs, some flour, sugar and milk, you are absolutely aware what the outcome of your effort is going to be - an effin cake!

This isn't gambling. Most of the stuff that you do on daily basis are not gambling, not even close.

 

That's not exactly true, your cake can plummet, be half baked, overcooked or burned. Just because you have the ingredients and mix it all together doesn't mean it'll come out like a cake. I'd know, I tried to make chocolate muffins last week, it didn't turn out like it should have.

 

Not that I'd call it a gamble though. But still, you never know!!

Edited December 10, 2016 by Eshvara

[JediRelentless]

If opening Command crates is gambling then unwrapping my Christmas gifts is gambling too.

[Eshvara]

If opening Command crates is gambling then unwrapping my Christmas gifts is gambling too.

 

Buying someone a Christmas gift certainly is. Too many end up on eBay!

[Neshira]

Your story is sad, it really is but at the end of the day it's not the job of the devs to account for your addiction. If you cannot play a game without bankrupting yourself that's your problem and you need to get off the computer and get some help rather than blaming it on others.

[JainiaDral]

Your posts about your experience with gambling addiction I find very brave and insightful. I wish more people would listen to you. They would rather argue about re-defining 'gambling' than addressing the fact RNG crates (both the ones you pay for and the ones you get through playing) hits that same compulsion, pushes the same button for people inclined to gambling addictions in the first place.

 

Completely agree. Thank you for sharing your experience, Rivan!

 

I've felt a weird compulsiveness myself with the GC system, and it's easy to see how EA and Bioware are banking on that tendency to keep subs. I've caught myself grinding things I wouldn't ordinarily do for the next box on my Guardian just because my RNG "luck" was pretty good-- at first. I hate that feeling of not fully being in control. It's one more thing that's made the game feel toxic and un-fun. It's not the positive kind of "play" that sparks imagination. It's pulling the little crank in a Skinner box, or at a slot machine or casino.

 

Bioware/EA know it, and they're trying to cash in on that toxic human tendency. They're in control, and they want you to surrender to the impulse. It feels fundamentally wrong, and it's the biggest reason I pulled the plug on my sub.

 

I wish you health, Rivan. Thank you for having the courage to share your story!

Edited December 10, 2016 by JainiaDral

[MuratReis]

I think you missed the part where I stated that those activities would not gambling, however can still lead to an addiction. Have you never seen a couple 6-7 year olds scheming how to get the best load of Christmas presents from their parents/relatives? At that age of course it's cute, but it's the same idea.

 

And our entire Western society (of which I'm assuming you are a member) is based on getting a chance of greater rewards based on time and money spent. It's called capitalism.

 

The point I'm trying to make is everything from the food we eat to the shows we watch to the games we play are designed to keep you coming back. Imagine a restaurant that didn't try to make their meals worth having twice, or a game with 0 replayability. It is our choices that matter, the boundaries we set upon ourselves and our behaviour.

 

I would hate to see anyone leave because a game system is causing them issues, however it is entirely up to you to find the right balance, it would be counter-productive for BW to try to find it for the community, since there are going to be people for whom the game itself is the addiction. It is not reasonable for beer stores to all close down because some people are alcoholics, nor is game responsible for restricting any content that could be addictive. There would be no content at all then.

 

If the proximity to the gambling in SWTOR is too much for you at this time, it may be time to make a hard choice. As I said, I'd hate to see you go over it, but you must concern yourself with your own well being.

 

Honestly, I don't think you know what a gambling addiction is like. You are so very, very wrong here.

[JennyFlynn]

I definitely believe the system caters to gambling addiction, they're counting on it actually. The more you feel driven to play play play to get what you want, to hit 21, the more money they make by keeping you subscribed. The more money they make when you buy CM crates.

 

And of course life is a gamble too in some aspects but it's not quite the same as this.

 

Either way, props to you for sharing your story Rivan and an aspect to this most people wouldn't open up about.

[MuratReis]

You're really stretching things...what you are describing isn't really gambling, it's the "just one more turn" feeling common in many games. I remember ditching class just to play "one more turn" of the original Civ game. You pay more one (or more) monthly blocks at a time, and even if you are desperate enough to buy CXP boosts, they aren't exploiting a gambling addiction. That said, the Civilization "just one more turn" effect was positive (I enjoyed each turn so I wanted to play another one) while GC is decidedly negative (you want to get one more crate because you *didn't like the one you just got)

 

 

If anything, GC is good (in a not-for-BW way) in that it can lead you into thinking about whether or not you really need something and if it's worth the expected cost.

 

I used to enjoy gearing. Now I need to think if its coat is worth it. That's extremely telling. Talk about a massive fail.

[MadDutchman]

What kind of statement is this?

When you work you know exactly how much you make every single hour.

When you are about to make a cake with eggs, some flour, sugar and milk, you are absolutely aware what the outcome of your effort is going to be - an effin cake!

This isn't gambling. Most of the stuff that you do on daily basis are not gambling, not even close.

 

You may know your hourly rate, and be reasonably sure you'll get it, but what about if you get sick? injured? I imagine when you do your household budget you are betting these things won't happen. How about promotions? Do you work extra hard, go the extra mile so to speak in order to advance your career? I bet you are betting your extra efforts will pay off.

 

Now before you jump on me too much, yes, I know these aren't gambling in the addictive sense (unless you are a workaholic), the point is it's not the activity but the addiction that is the issue. Now if we start considering it in the general form of addictions, it all becomes messier.

 

What I'm trying to get at is it is not up to BW to restrict their game content because it could cause people to have issues. Not that it wouldn't be nice if they could, they can't. For some, the addiction isn't to gambling, but to video games themselves. So you remove all things that could be a recognizable form of gambling. Great, you've helped shield a portion of your community. This is good. But what about those whose issue is games themselves? To help them, suddenly, you have no game at all.

 

Obviously, this will not happen.

 

I have great respect for those who share their difficulties on these forums, it's a risky thing to do. It does not mean I agree however.

[RiVaN_]

There are folks in this thread who understand & those who don't.

I appreciate the understanding and even the attempts too.

 

For those who don't understand, I hope you never have too, gut you could try to see a different perspective.

 

No it isn't the dev's responsibility to monitor these issues, but the right thing to do is to not create a system that is completely dependent on an RNG system that has a direct correlation to straight up gambling. It is a little irresponsible in my opinion.

 

Thanks again to those who know empathy and have had kind thing to say, it's deeply appriciated.

[Pietrastor]

I definitely believe the system caters to gambling addiction, they're counting on it actually. The more you feel driven to play play play to get what you want, to hit 21, the more money they make by keeping you subscribed. The more money they make when you buy CM crates.

 

And of course life is a gamble too in some aspects but it's not quite the same as this.

 

Either way, props to you for sharing your story Rivan and an aspect to this most people wouldn't open up about.

More towards prolonging the gearing process. Shooters been doing this whole generation, RNG boxes with gun upgrades. Always ends up with players spending longer engaged than they would've been if they could just spend their virtual currencies on specific upgrades. Now the vanity Cartel Packs sure, that's purely aimed at gambling/shiny addictions. If you hit the jackpot and with that Senya/Unstable/Vented saber, you're done, you beat the system and got your prize! Until next shiny. Getting +2 to your weapon? Not that much gambling addiction there.

[X-Dice]

Frankly, that's just your own fault.

[Tsetso]

Frankly, that's just your own fault.

 

Frankly, you better crawl under your bridge.

[-Spc]

Just out of curiosity, what pet?

Some very small walker or whatever it is. got 3 of those already.

[-Spc]

Few more hours and i am unsubscribed.