vanguard status after 5.0

[xxIncubixx]

Is there any point to play vanguard atm instead of comando?

 

worse range, crap defensive cooldowns, as of 5.0 no damage... dots are laughable at best.

[Chemists]

From a PvE aspect the only reason to to still play this class still is for the extra utility ex. Sonic Rebounders, ability to off tank if need be, and the Sundered and Assailable debuffs (assuming you're playing Tactics) which is great to have if you have a Commando in your group already playing Assault Specialist, but that's about all I can think of. Our damage needs to be buffed for sure. Edited December 9, 2016 by Chemists

[AutoCocker]

Sadly it's best to just shelve them for the time being. Even tank spec has taken various hits over the past couple of patches. Adrenalin nerf, missile heal nerf, range nerf, dps nerf and with 5.0 skill procs don't work along with jet charge being bugged....ugh...

 

Add on the fact that absorb shield relics are canceling out sorc bubbles and vice versa. Honestly 5.0 pretty much broke all of the specs at the moment.

[realleaftea]

Tank spec is pretty much garbage atm. Dunno why they had to nerf it that hard.

Dtps is just insane compared to the other tanks.

 

Does BW want us to play lightsaber tank classes only or what?

[Xancath]

It's actually only 3% lower than juggs and 6% lower than assassins in best in slot gear. That's if you're talking about pve anyways.

[realleaftea]

It's actually only 3% lower than juggs and 6% lower than assassins in best in slot gear. That's if you're talking about pve anyways.

Well, that might be the statistical average, but my personal experience differs greatly. Whereas both the juggernaut and the assassin have reliable and effective defensive skills, the Powertech is kind of limited to weaker luck-based options, (slow) heals and a mediocre Energy Shield.

 

To make things obvious, let's assume your tank somehow drops to 30% HP. What are the chances that a Powertech survives the next - and potentially lethal - attack? He neither has a Saber Reflect, nor a Force Shroud, nor a Force Cloak, nor a true instant heal, nor an absorb shield, nor anything else like that. He's pretty much doomed to take the punch.

 

Let's have a look:

 

Energy Shield:

Plain old +25% DR (damage reduction)

Juggernaut - Invincible: +40% DR; 10s duration; 150s CD

Assassin - Overcharge Saber + Premonition: +25% DR; +15% HP instantly

 

The Energy Shield is definitely weaker than the corresponding variants of the other two tank classes. The relative long duration (15s) and short cooldown (120s) might push the DTPS statistics up a bit in comparison to Invincible, but the skill stays less potent per use.

 

Explosive Fuel + Coolant:

+35% DEF (Thanks to the wicked mind of developers, it was added to an offensive buff)

Juggernaut - Saber Ward: +50% DEF; +25% f/t DR; 150s CD (+100% DEF for the first 2s)

Assassin - Deflection: +50% DEF

 

Adding +50% DEF bonus to an existing skill may be too much to ask for, but the existing discrepancy should be obvious.

 

Shield Cannon:

Nerfed significantly. The Shoulder Cannon missiles restore only 4x 3% = 12% HP over ~5sec.

Juggernaut - Enraged Defense: Being healed 12x (on taking damage)

Assassin - Overcharge Saber: 15s to trigger Dark Charge for extra heals (+15% HP instantly)

 

The Shoulder Cannon missiles might not be worth the utility point. Both Enraged Defense and Overcharge Saber last much longer, although the amount of hitpoints recovered per strike // on taking damage might be on par with the Shoulder Cannon.

 

If the Powertech tank would get access to the Power Loaders upgrade (+3 missiles), the resulting 7x 3% = 21% over 9s wouldn't be as good as the previous 4x 5% over 5s, but it would be more comparable/competitive to both Enraged Defense and Overcharge Saber (they last up to 15s). (BioWare could raise the cooldown to 120s if necessary)

 

Oil Slick:

Nerfed heavily! -15% accuracy (plus the -70% movement speed debuff).

Juggernaut - Conquering Defense: targets in range deal -15% damage (via Intimidating Roar)

Assassin - Mounting Darkness: targets in range deal -15% damage (via Deflection)

 

Powertech variant depends on luck and the accuracy loss isn't really lifesaving.

 

It's worth mentioning that the variant of the assassin has a 120s cooldown (see deflection). The other two have a 60s cooldown. So it might have been better to add the Mounting Darkness debuff to Force Shroud instead.

 

Heat Blast:

Added mainly for a complete overview: +30% absorb

Juggernaut- Blade Barrier: medium damage absorb (via Blade Storm)

Assassin - Shroud of Darkness: +30% absorb (via Recklessness) and/or Dark Ward: up to +18% shield chance

 

It's laudable that BioWare added skills that focus on existing stats (rather than just raising damage reduction). (As they are direct counterparts to critical hit & crit. damage, I wish there would be more stuff like that) Due to the nature of Heat Blast however, it isn't easy to delay the effect (unlike Blade Storm & Recklessness).

 

Kolto Overload:

Max HP nerfed to 35%. Recovers health quickly.

Juggernaut - see below

Assassin - see below

 

The effectiveness of Kolto Overload can differ greatly. It's a delayed, reactive bonus with a harsh trigger limitation. IMO, this makes the skill quite situational. It's pretty much useless against bosses with 'spike' damage (causing the loss of 25%+ HP with a single strike). Only in combination with one or more other mitigation effects, the skill gets to its full potential.

 

The Coolant upgrade (recover 2% HP/sec above 35%) would have been more useful for DPS specs. Damage dealers should rarely ever drop below 35% HP in PvE. And should this happen, it's essential to get back beyond the 35% cap. In most cases, there's also enough time to recover. Tanks on contrast are under constant pressure and are healed continuously (at least most of the time), so the additional 2% are barely noticable.

 

But the worst part:

Kolto Overload is significantly weaker than the remaining defensive skills of the other two tank classes:

Juggernaut - Saber Reflect; Blade Turning (+100% DEF for 2s); Endure Pain; Payback (+10% HP instantly)

Assassin - 30% AoE DR, Force Shroud (incl. Lightning Recovery); Force Cloak (+Shroud of Madness, +Renewing Darkness); Phasing Phantasm (Force Speed)

 

In other words, the Powertech tank is lacking a true 'emergency' skill. Kolto Overload simply doesn't fit. It's not effective enough to avoid massive spike damage. Automatic Defenses (+30% DR while Kolto Overload is active) or Tauma Regulators might be possible options to fix that, but both would feel kind of forced to me.

 

To sum it up:

In regard of DTPS average, it might not matter whether a character receives a permanent +2% DR bonus (see Ion Screen passive) or a temporary +20% DR boost available 1/10th the time, but the latter is way more practical against erratic amounts of damage. And in my opinion, the Powertech tank is clearly lacking a skill or two in this regard.

 

Max. possible damage mitigation vs. force/tech attacks:

Juggernaut: 100% via Saber Reflect; 40% via Invincible

Assassin: 100% via Force Shroud; 60% via Phasing Phantasm; (100% via Force Cloak)

Powertech: 25% via Energy Field

 

Max. possible damage mitigation vs. melee/ranged attacks:

Juggernaut: 100% via Saber Reflect; 100% Blade Turning, 40% via Invincible

Assassin: 60% via Phasing Phantasm; 50% chance via Deflection; (100% via Force Cloak)

Powertech: 35% chance via Explosive Fuel

 

So if you're a fan of statistics or you like to gamble, a Powertech tank might still be the right choice for you. But if you want to be reliable, 'solid as a rock' tank in a challenging 8-man content, the masses of mediocre (no bonus >35%) skills might push you into the ousted 'off-tank' role sooner or later, taking care only of the less-spiky threats.

Edited January 18, 2017 by realleaftea

[GhOsTPrOz]

I have been saying for awhile now that vanguards need one more cool down. I have an idea for a good one,

 

 

Basically vanguards need a "damage smoothener"

 

Cool down- 2 minutes

Duration - 20 seconds

Effect - Grants 5 stacks, each stack prevents 5k damage on the next direct hit.

 

 

This would allow for 25k to be prevented in technically 5 gcds or 7.5 seconds up to 20 seconds. If you give vanguards that, plus like a buff to shoulder cannon heals again, and maybe 3% more absorb and Sheild on their passive stacks you gain 1% more per stack they would be "rock solid" (in my opinion) like the other tanks.

Edited January 27, 2017 by GhOsTPrOz

[FerkWork]

PT tanks need an equivalent ability to Saber Reflect and Shroud as it's the only Tank that doesn't have an ability to negate *all* damage from an attack whether it's specific type of damage or not. This is why PT tanks are the worst for Brontes. Once energy Shield and adrenal are gone and there's more than 3 Stacks of Supremacy out Orb management becomes terrible. Edited January 27, 2017 by FerkWork

[LeglessChair]

pt tank seems squishy and the tank stats don't provide enough mitigation (in pvp) to be worthwhile. imo the nerfs to dcds (oil slick) and heal cannon were unnecessary and reverting them to their former glory would be a good start for helping out pt tanks (I'm afraid the dps specs seem hopeless in pvp). Although I don't think it would be enough. Edited January 28, 2017 by LeglessChair

[GhOsTPrOz]

PT tanks need an equivalent ability to Saber Reflect and Shroud as it's the only Tank that doesn't have an ability to negate *all* damage from an attack whether it's specific type of damage or not. This is why PT tanks are the worst for Brontes. Once energy Shield and adrenal are gone and there's more than 3 Stacks of Supremacy out Orb management becomes terrible.

 

Yeah your right about that....Maybe giving PTs "diversion" back and make it like a 3 second 200% resist on a 1min cooldown instead of 45 too? But I still think they need another cooldown as well....they have like honestly 2 real "BIG" cooldowns...its not often I say "dun worry healers I got adrenaline rush its Gucci"

[GhOsTPrOz]

PT tanks need an equivalent ability to Saber Reflect and Shroud as it's the only Tank that doesn't have an ability to negate *all* damage from an attack whether it's specific type of damage or not. This is why PT tanks are the worst for Brontes. Once energy Shield and adrenal are gone and there's more than 3 Stacks of Supremacy out Orb management becomes terrible.

 

Also there is the "Pop battle focus go HNNNNNNGGGGGG and pray"...but yeah el o el

[Udoroththefinal]

Here is a question

 

People say pts or atleast ap pts "upside" is it's "strong burst" however isn't that burst reliant on the use of explosive fuel to pair with shoulder cannons ?

 

If so isn't that on. 1min cd? If so then can the argument that pts have strong burst be reasonable when other classes on a shorter cd window for their burst than 1 m

[GhOsTPrOz]

Here is a question

 

People say pts or atleast ap pts "upside" is it's "strong burst" however isn't that burst reliant on the use of explosive fuel to pair with shoulder cannons ?

 

If so isn't that on. 1min cd? If so then can the argument that pts have strong burst be reasonable when other classes on a shorter cd window for their burst than 1 m

 

PTs burst is at its best every time shoulder cannon and explosive fuel is up. However if you play your cards right you can still do insane damage about every 15 seconds, maybe a bit more with fight down time. Assault Plastique, Stock Strike, High impact bolt (gives you 4th stack) then Energy Burst if your lucky with crits it can be close to 50k damage over 4 GCDs (or 6 seconds) if you factor in dot damage. They have fairly consistent burst regardless with the lowest ability hitting for 9-10k the rest do around 11-20k+ I would say in my opinion Carnage and Arsenal are probably better, but AP is a formidable burst spec.

Edited January 28, 2017 by GhOsTPrOz