RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[WhiteOsprey]

They may want inclusiveness in terms of it being possible for any playstyle to get the very best gear, but they clearly stated today people doing harder content will get it faster. If you don't do nim ops or lots of ranked pvp you won't get the top end gear anywhere near as fast as someone who does.

[Jamtas]

I do not believe that this next phase is ideal or complete or ideal. Obviously, anyone who doesn't PvP or do Ops is left behind. I think that issue needs to be resolved and the team already said they are looking at ways of supplementing that.

 

I do believe inclusiveness is the goal. Part of what can undermine Ops and PvP is if the amount of command tokens required is a lot per gear piece. That would help prevent PvPers and raiders from getting gear far too fast and leaving everybody else behind.

 

But the new system is inclusive - what it isn't is completely equal...which I think is correct.

 

Before, pvp got their own set gear, raiders got their own set gear, those who didn't had no set gear- jsut vendor gear or bought/crafted gear

 

Now, pve and pvp have thieer quicker path to gear since it is needed to compete in their respective fields. And now, those that don't play either have a path

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, GC as a supplement to traditional gearing was a good idea - and I still believe that position as BW is moving towards adapting it.

There is no good way to make gearing completely equal across the board and have it work well within the different groups. GC as it was released showed that failure for a "socialistic" gearing system.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yeah thry will need the gear for solo master mode levels. But they'll have to get it via rng. If thry want it more efficiently then they'll have to do ops or pvp.

 

Unfortunately it would be tough to add gear drops to those as you'd ideally need beat it to get the gear drop in which case you wouldn't need the gear drop anymore.

 

I would think the portion of people interested in doing super difficult solo content and not doing raids is fairly small also. I base this around when we got level sync and most of the outrage there was from the "solo" community who were worried the content ( heroics ) would become too tough for them to do easily anymore compared to before.

 

Same with the heroic SF when they first dropped with companion nerf. It was still possible to do but very difficult but again outrage at it being just too difficult for the solo players who felt they needed to do it but not because of the challenge.

 

I don't imagine these are the type of players who relish the incredibly difficult challenge of master mode ( hopefully will be ) though there will no doubt be a few exceptions.

[Kurj]

Command crates still exist. Crates still have a chance to drop gear, which means you could potentially still get it faster. That wasn't possible with 4.0 where casuals had no path to endgame gear. They still do, but PvPers and raiders have a guaranteed path. I still think more needs to be done for casuals in order to be more inclusive, but this is just phase one.

 

Which means it's been reduced to a gear lottery for underachievers. I can see how something like that might draw more casuals in, and I have no problem with it on any level whatsoever. But that is miles from "RNG is perfect for SWTOR." It's not even in the same galaxy.

[Aowin]

I just rewatched the section on ops bosses. The unassembled pieces drop off of each boss, with the final boss being the only one to have a specific piece drop. The others are random unassembled pieces.

 

I stand corrected. Again, the major question is how many tokens it will take to use in conjunction with an unassembled gear piece. This will still slow down the gear acquisition significantly whether you are running an 8-man or 16-man.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Secondly, my concern was that raiders would outpace the rest, including PvPers, due to the nature of raiders wanting the best gear only in operations. That's not the case with this system. PvPers are going to get the best gear the fastest. Depending on the valor rank, this could make it very easy for someone like myself (valor 100) to get tier 3 gear in a short amount of time.

I still have concerns about how fast progression will be now, but hopefully we'll need a lot of tokens and it will slow things down to a respectable rate.

 

1) please please please show me where the heck did you get this idea that my concern was that raiders would outpace the rest, including PvPers, due to the nature of raiders wanting the best gear only in operations

 

2) and after that... how would it be fair to have PvPers are going to get the best gear the fastest.

 

Sigh, i for one am NOT looking forwards to getting steamrolled by those pvp-guild premades over and over. :eek:

 

 

Other than that it was a very pleasant surprise to have them make these changes =) Of course this system is in fact going to be a bit MORE complicated than the one we had before lol, but hei i'm not gonna look a gift horse in the teeth :D

[Aowin]

Which means it's been reduced to a gear lottery for underachievers. I can see how something like that might draw more casuals in, and I have no problem with it on any level whatsoever. But that is miles from "RNG is perfect for SWTOR." It's not even in the same galaxy.

 

The goal was to give all players access to endgame gear. GC still achieves that, regardless of these new systems. RNG is still fine and accomplishes what it was meant to do: slow down progression. People are happy now that there is certainty in the progression with regard to PvP and operations, but lets wait and see to see how long that grind actually is. Sure, it's nice we actually can work towards certain pieces of gear. If you end up needing 10,000 command tokens for just one piece and you only get a 100 per ops boss or 50 per warzone, it may be quite a long process.

 

Many see this as a return to 4.0. I find that to be horribly unrealistic and highly unlikely. BioWare's goal has not changed, even if they are modifying their system to a degree.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Command crates still exist. Crates still have a chance to drop gear, which means you could potentially still get it faster. That wasn't possible with 4.0 where casuals had no path to endgame gear. They still do, but PvPers and raiders have a guaranteed path. I still think more needs to be done for casuals in order to be more inclusive, but this is just phase one.

hei, Ao, don't ignore the best way for them to feel more included......... like go ahead and start queueing for pvp? or start spamming fleet chat they are forming a group for a raid. It really isn't our job to go out of our way and make things more comfortable lol, we had to overcome our social awkwardness just the same in order to get to where we actually do these things and don't have to yell in our minds omgeeee i'm in a group with other people! they need me to do things. omg this is so much stress!! or whatever.

like, there is nothing wrong with letting them feel more included, but they should really be able to push the queue button themselves lol.... at least where PvP is concerned cause yes i'll admit the ops groupfinder is a bit broken lol ... though it did actually pop once for me =):D

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I stand corrected. Again, the major question is how many tokens it will take to use in conjunction with an unassembled gear piece. This will still slow down the gear acquisition significantly whether you are running an 8-man or 16-man.

 

damn i was pretty sure they said the bosses before last have a CHANCE to drop a random piece and then chance is increasing, so 4th boss has a better chance to drop a piece than the 3rd one and the last one does so 100% guaranteed? damn, should have listened better instead of staring at eric :D lol

[Aowin]

1) please please please show me where the heck did you get this idea that my concern was that raiders would outpace the rest, including PvPers, due to the nature of raiders wanting the best gear only in operations

 

2) and after that... how would it be fair to have PvPers are going to get the best gear the fastest.

 

Sigh, i for one am NOT looking forwards to getting steamrolled by those pvp-guild premades over and over. :eek:

 

Other than that it was a very pleasant surprise to have them make these changes =) Of course this system is in fact going to be a bit MORE complicated than the one we had before lol, but hei i'm not gonna look a gift horse in the teeth :D

1) I don't believe I ever suggested "Hichitsuki-hime wants better gear than everybody else." However, it's unmistakable that there has been this underlying sentiment from some raiders who clearly believe the "hardest" content should have the best rewards.

 

2) The question you should be asking is "how would it be unfair?" Most PvPers have no stake in progression raiding and simply won't care. Whether PvPers have the best gear, or not, will not impact raiders one way or the other. It's a huge issue, however, if raiders get the best gear before PvPers and then decide to participate in warzones or ranked arenas. Just from having personal experience when the game released and expertise was broken, raiders would come into warzones with superior gear and destroy everybody. It was not fun and if something like that were to happen again, BioWare would kill its PvP community rather quickly.

 

If you don't PvP, how would you get "steamrolled by those pvp-guild premades"? As I suggested, raiders aren't fighting against other players so this is a non-issue. Your only complaint may be "this guild was able to down this boss faster because they also PvP and had better gear."

 

This is very much in line with what I expected to happen based on Ben and Charles' remarks from prior streams. Again, the devil is in the details. While this may sound "better," that ultimately depends on how long it takes to actually get a piece. Meaning, how many command tokens it will require and how readily available are those to obtain?

 

I'm of the opinion that there will still be a grind. It will be a determined grind, but lets not assume we are going back to 4.0 where you can gear in a matter of days. I think those days are gone permanently. BioWare is tweaking their system, but they aren't scrapping it and making a return to a previous system.

[Aowin]

hei, Ao, don't ignore the best way for them to feel more included......... like go ahead and start queueing for pvp? or start spamming fleet chat they are forming a group for a raid. It really isn't our job to go out of our way and make things more comfortable lol, we had to overcome our social awkwardness just the same in order to get to where we actually do these things and don't have to yell in our minds omgeeee i'm in a group with other people! they need me to do things. omg this is so much stress!! or whatever.

like, there is nothing wrong with letting them feel more included, but they should really be able to push the queue button themselves lol.... at least where PvP is concerned cause yes i'll admit the ops groupfinder is a bit broken lol ... though it did actually pop once for me =):D

 

Not everybody likes PvP or raiding. I happen to have done everything in MMOs from progression raiding to top tier PvP. I also understand to do these activities, it requires a certain skill set, commitment, and drive to overcome various challenges. Some folks may just like crafting, or story, or flashpoints, or GSF, or conquest, or even strongholds.

 

I don't believe in this philosophy that "some game play styles are better than others." I believe to have a healthy MMO you need to provide a balance and a wealth of content for all different types of players. If all BioWare ever did was focus on PvPers and raiders, I believe SWTOR would severely lack in other sectors that are just as crucial for a lasting MMO.

 

I understand and certainly agree that BioWare needed to make some adjustments to make gear achievement more practical for PvP and operations, given how gear-intensive those activities are. At the same time, MMOs are very complex games with a very diverse body of players. This is why I'm still an advocate of inclusion because it ultimately leads to a better MMO experience in my opinion.

 

Nobody should ever feel forced to do something they don't want to participate in. If you don't like raiding or PvP, that shouldn't lock you out of other opportunities and rewards those disciplines may have. I'm not saying these players should have an equal shot at everything PvPers and raiders have, but this isn't just a game for PvPers and raiders.

[DarthWoad]

If all BioWare ever did was focus on PvPers and raiders, I believe SWTOR would severely lack in other sectors that are just as crucial for a lasting MMO.

 

So a bit like now then where all they focus on is story and not on raiders and PvPers? Or people who wanna do multiplayer content in an MMO?

[Hichitsuki-hime]

1) I don't believe I ever suggested "Hichitsuki-hime wants better gear than everybody else." However, it's unmistakable that there has been this underlying sentiment from some raiders who clearly believe the "hardest" content should have the best rewards.

hei hei the I in that sentence was copy-pasted from your post lol. i didn't imply that u said that about ME lol.

but i still don't get what's wrong with getting best reward for hardest content?? 0.o

 

2) The question you should be asking is "how would it be unfair?" Most PvPers have no stake in progression raiding and simply won't care. Whether PvPers have the best gear, or not, will not impact raiders one way or the other. It's a huge issue, however, if raiders get the best gear before PvPers and then decide to participate in warzones or ranked arenas. Just from having personal experience when the game released and expertise was broken, raiders would come into warzones with superior gear and destroy everybody. It was not fun and if something like that were to happen again, BioWare would kill its PvP community rather quickly.

i also remember the first time i joined a pvp match at cap level. and how much it SUCKED compared to the lowbie pvp, where i could actually hold my own without having my face bashed in every 2 seconds simply because i just started playing pvp and my gear was crap lol. i don't say it'd be good if pvers would do better at pvp than pvpers themselves... at the same time, i think this distinction between PvPer and PvEr is also... a bit... useless. it's all content lol. especially now that there is no separate pvp and pve gear hehe

 

If you don't PvP, how would you get "steamrolled by those pvp-guild premades"? As I suggested, raiders aren't fighting against other players so this is a non-issue. Your only complaint may be "this guild was able to down this boss faster because they also PvP and had better gear."

eeee my sage is at valor 69 and my sorc is in the 50ies. i can't say i'm much good, best i can hope for is average mediocrity lol. but that doesn't mean i don't pvp lol. the why i don't pvp more is because i don't like solo-pvping, when i have someone to chat with on TS while we pvp together is a whole different matter. it's very fun that way.... unless of course my gear is so bad from pvp standpoint that it blasts all enjoyment out the window lol.

 

This is very much in line with what I expected to happen based on Ben and Charles' remarks from prior streams. Again, the devil is in the details. While this may sound "better," that ultimately depends on how long it takes to actually get a piece. Meaning, how many command tokens it will require and how readily available are those to obtain?

I'm of the opinion that there will still be a grind. It will be a determined grind, but lets not assume we are going back to 4.0 where you can gear in a matter of days. I think those days are gone permanently. BioWare is tweaking their system, but they aren't scrapping it and making a return to a previous system.

yeah no, these changes are good. can be VERY good... if indeed they balance out the details well =) because let's see... last boss of every op has a piece of gear that will 100% drop. there might be other tokens along the way, but from what i understood it's only a CHANCE of them dropping. which means that 8 people have 1 guaranteed token between them. while in pvp each w/z gives you fragments (again depending on how many fragments are actually needed to get that unassembled token lol). i just hope they can balance it in a good way =)

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I understand and certainly agree that BioWare needed to make some adjustments to make gear achievement more practical for PvP and operations, given how gear-intensive those activities are. At the same time, MMOs are very complex games with a very diverse body of players. This is why I'm still an advocate of inclusion because it ultimately leads to a better MMO experience in my opinion.

Nobody should ever feel forced to do something they don't want to participate in. If you don't like raiding or PvP, that shouldn't lock you out of other opportunities and rewards those disciplines may have. I'm not saying these players should have an equal shot at everything PvPers and raiders have, but this isn't just a game for PvPers and raiders.

 

Certainly, I am not saying people need to be forced to do content just to get gear. However with what we will have come january, they don't need to force themselves. the current grind of CXP will remain just as it is now. they can still farm boxes for gear.

what i meant was if people wanted to join in on ops or pvp it's certainly not all that hard, we all began at some point and i don't recall it being all that hard. ofc ops were easier to get into and with how dumbed down SM ops are atm it won't be a challenge for anyone provided they got a braincell lol :D:D

 

honestly imo the best way to go about integrating newbies and casuals into the game would be a type of mentor-system. kinda like the RAF in WoW. where the vets get rewards for tutoring players, such as dunno... some extra CC, or some vanity stuff or wutever.

 

what do you think would work well for this inclusion thingie?

[Tsetso]

what do you think would work well for this inclusion thingie?

 

Nothing will work for people who don't want to be included. It's not hard to find people who like to do the activities you do, add them as friends, create a guild or a raid group or a pvp premade, or a ranked team. People who complain about not being included probably never tried doing any of that. Nothing against solo players, this rant is not against them but against the players that want to do group content, but do not want to show any commitment to anyone else playing with them.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Nothing will work for people who don't want to be included. It's not hard to find people who like to do the activities you do, add them as friends, create a guild or a raid group or a pvp premade, or a ranked team. People who complain about not being included probably never tried doing any of that. Nothing against solo players, this rant is not against them but against the players that want to do group content, but do not want to show any commitment to anyone else playing with them.

lol no, one thing will work: for them to play a single player game instead or if they want to solo an MMO, then RP is also a valid end-game part and doesn't require you to do content >.>

i mean, swtor is my first, if i could learn how to join in and integrate into the community, then it's certainly not impossible lol:D:D

[Krakenheim]

No

 

I never played OPS for real and so my gear was not the best, but I knew what to get, how to get it and when to get it.

 

Now its just a big lottery, it sucks.

 

A mixed system would be the best, random is good but fixed is better.

 

And please do turn OPS into something special or the game will loose the top tier players, the few OPS I did I really enjoyed it and loot at the end of a tough fight is always welcome.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

No

 

I never played OPS for real and so my gear was not the best, but I knew what to get, how to get it and when to get it.

 

Now its just a big lottery, it sucks.

 

A mixed system would be the best, random is good but fixed is better.

 

And please do turn OPS into something special or the game will loose the top tier players, the few OPS I did I really enjoyed it and loot at the end of a tough fight is always welcome.

 

they're already working on adjustments for the system coming in patch 5.1 in end of january =) i believe you can find the notes about yesterday's stream here: http://dulfy.net/2016/12/15/swtor-december-15-producers-livestream/

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

I want to ask a very seirous quesiton here and I hope it's not lost in all the fume. Before I do, please understand that the way this game works is an anathame to me. I'm used to different systems so please excuse my ignorance on this.

 

Why does this system have to be over complicated in the first place? Why not simply have vendors that sell gearing for credits? There are many different ways to make cash in this game and many don't involve grinding. It seems to me that selling them for credits would be a far more inclusive way to go about things. The pace of which you can obtain gear would be contoled by the cost of the gear.

[Forren-Midosea]

Wont work, there are lots of people with x00 000 000 creds. They would just buy bis gear first day. Edited December 16, 2016 by Forren-Midosea

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

Wont work, there are lots of people with x00 000 000 creds. They would just buy bis gear first day.

 

A minotiry would, sure but not most people. Certainly not new people. Like I said, control it through the price of the gear. If the average player has x00 000 000 creds then make a full set of gear cost x 000 000 000 creds. It just seems like everyone, Bioware included, wants to over complicate the issue when keeping things simple would be best.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

A minotiry would, sure but not most people. Certainly not new people. Like I said, control it through the price of the gear. If the average player has x00 000 000 creds then make a full set of gear cost x 000 000 000 creds. It just seems like everyone, Bioware included, wants to over complicate the issue when keeping things simple would be best.

 

a system of just selling gear for credits certainly won't work. why?

1) if price is to high it will take a lot of people too long to be able to afford it;

2) it will put crafters out of business;

3) it will give more business to all those credit sellers lol

4) different people enjoy different parts of the game. my guildie has 189mil. i managed to save up 10 mil between 40 toons over almost 5 years. there's enough credit sinks in this game as it is.

[Captain_Zone]

Inclusiveness. It's really that simple. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've participated in every major update and every major expansion. This game has slowly but surely been streamlined (some would argue simplified) over time. The goal? To make a more inclusive and accepting experience.

 

One of the biggest problem with all MMOs is newcomer retention. MMOs historically have a bad track record with encouraging new players to join. Why is this? The game is set up in such a way that benefits the veteran over everybody else. This is particularly true with endgame gear progression.

 

The moment a new player comes into the game, they are instantly at a disadvantage and a massive learning curve is needed to understand the complexities of the system. For a veteran to the MMORPG genre, this may not seem like a big deal. However, to folks who have never played an MMO, this is a daunting task.

 

These anti-newcomer systems discourage new players and prevent the game from truly growing over time. The longer the MMO is around, the less likely newcomers are to join. Herein lies why Galactic Command is an ingenious system.

 

BioWare has equalized the playing field and made a system that is fair to all. Whether you are a veteran of five years or you just started playing today, everybody has the same opportunity to achieve gear. Some of you may not like the RNG element, but the actual concept for Galactic Command is solid and worth saving.

 

The nay-sayers who say the system is abhorrent and has ruined the game are those who believe they are entitled to the best gear immediately. Admittedly, this mentality is BioWare's fault. After Battlemaster Bags were removed, BioWare had a knee-jerk reaction and implemented a system where achieving PvP gear was far too easy. This is also true of raiding where gear pieces were switched out with tokens to make the gearing process that much faster.

 

These "quality of life" changes for the veteran player were great, but not necessarily for anybody else. Galactic Command looks to rewrite the many mistakes BioWare has made with gear progression for years. Some of you may not like how it has tremendously slowed down gear progression. But, you should also probably re-evaluate yourselves and ask are you really entitled to having the best gear within days of a major expansion launching.

 

Galactic Command is a system that benefits all, not just the few. I am a veteran player and I support this new system.

 

Can't tell if you're trolling, or....

Edited December 16, 2016 by Captain_Zone

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Can't tell if you're trolling, or....

dude, it's 130 page long thread, read it =) lol maybe u'll find out:D:D but no, it's his honest opinion :D

[Kurj]

The goal was to give all players access to endgame gear. GC still achieves that, regardless of these new systems. RNG is still fine and accomplishes what it was meant to do: slow down progression. People are happy now that there is certainty in the progression with regard to PvP and operations, but lets wait and see to see how long that grind actually is. Sure, it's nice we actually can work towards certain pieces of gear. If you end up needing 10,000 command tokens for just one piece and you only get a 100 per ops boss or 50 per warzone, it may be quite a long process.

 

Many see this as a return to 4.0. I find that to be horribly unrealistic and highly unlikely. BioWare's goal has not changed, even if they are modifying their system to a degree.

 

It's a return to 4.0's endgame gearing system. I think everyone agrees the pace of 4.0 endgame gearing was too rapid, to an extent that it reduced population from boredom. Now we will see if BW can find the right balance going forward. If they can and the casual gear lottery draws in new players, we'll all be complaining because there won't be much left to complain about.