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RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.


Aowin

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They way it is implemented is the complete opposite of what you are describing.

 

Let me elaborate on one of your points. The veteran versus the new player.

 

The veteran who has already grinded out 250 levels over a ten month period and has 240 gear, as a example, is about to do a raid and you want to come along and your currently CxP rank 5. Under the old system, a group of veterans could run you through KP and EV in about 2 to 2.5 hours and you would have 10-14 pieces of gear by the end (because they let you have all the drops to 'power gear' you to catch up with the grinding they have already done). With this new abomination, they instead will look at the fact that you have another 245 levels of grinding to catch up to them and therefore take a pass on you.

 

Same will eventually happen in PvP as the gear deferential alienates new players who haven't put the grind time in.

 

Over time you will see this current system will actually alienate new players from group content than have them included. Why do I know this, because it already happens in grindfest MMOs today. Why do you think the SWTOR grindfest will be any different?

 

I being a smart casual player agree 100%; I have seven kids I only get to login sparsely. I finally hit level 65 on all three of my characters a week before the expansion came out. I had enough Warzone Credits to deck out my jug in 208 gear man was I thrilled! I still played pvp with crap gear I still did story mode OP at level 58 and got bumped up to 65 with 58 gear. Did people call me fake dps? Yes they did! However, when it came to me joining the que as DPS and another guy with better gear accidentally clicking DPS and Tank and they said dude swap out to Tank you qued up as both.

 

The other guy said FU and they vote kicked him and kept me the fake dps. We finished the content and I had a great time. I was hindering the group I had no idea what story mode OP was but boy did I learn fast in 2.5 hours! I then decided only tactical ops for me till I hit 65 and can gear up my toons.

 

The point of this story is simple; the current nightmare of a system that was introduced means not only will the casual gamer never get to command ******** 300 they will never sniff end game gear. When YOU say casual gamer we actually mean CASUAL 300+ hours is not casual that is from Level 70! I'm still not done the last expansion let alone the new one and I started before this expansion hit!

 

In that one OP I ran I got two tokens and a speeder and it was awesome I felt very rewarded for doing the content. If I received CXP and nothing else for that OP I would be beyond let down. It's not about preventing people from getting end game gear. Let the Elite be Elite we NEED them. The reason star wars doesn't keep new subs; is not because of elite's it's because the STORY was so damn long and most of us casual's didn't even finish the original story we got bored and either started a new character or played before the streamlining of the GOOD content which is not story content. By this time our Sub ran out and what was the real value in renewing? To continue to progress for 10 dollars a month; nah I'm a casual I'm not going to sub unless I play a lot and I'm doing end game content with friends. This will never be the case; however release an expansion I'll buy the game for 4 - 5 months to have fun and then leave again. I need the elite's here to help me progress and enjoy my 4-5 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by IFranchizeI
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are you kidding me? you have got to be either a troll or profoundly myoptic.

 

we are talking months. MONTHS of catch up. not hours. MONTHS. if you are doing solo content especially it starts taking hours between each new command crate pretty darn quickly. its a little faster if you can grind uprisings or whatnot, but we are still talking a gap that will ONLY get bigger. the expansion dropped a week ago for early acess and we already starting to see the gap. the gap will NOT get smaller. it will get WIDER. and newcomers or casuals? are SoL. becasue grind is all there is.

 

Perhaps you weren't here at launch, but leveling to level 50 didn't used to be as insanely fast as it is now. It actually took quite a bit of effort and quite a few hours. Do you know what BioWare ultimately did to help newcomers catch up? They did double exp weekends. They did 12x exp weekends. Eventually BioWare completely overhauled leveling and made it where everybody would level faster. I do not understand why you fail to understand the same thing will happen with CXP.

 

You assume it will forever be some unfriendly system where players will be behind for months and can never catch up. You merely show your lack of understanding of SWTOR's past. As I said, CXP boosts and likely CXP weekends will happen. It's very likely when BioWare finds it necessary that they will provide means to help newcomers catch up if the problem you describe happens to be enough of an issue.

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Perhaps you weren't here at launch, but leveling to level 50 didn't used to be as insanely fast as it is now. It actually took quite a bit of effort and quite a few hours. Do you know what BioWare ultimately did to help newcomers catch up? They did double exp weekends. They did 12x exp weekends. Eventually BioWare completely overhauled leveling and made it where everybody would level faster. I do not understand why you fail to understand the same thing will happen with CXP.

 

You assume it will forever be some unfriendly system where players will be behind for months and can never catch up. You merely show your lack of understanding of SWTOR's past. As I said, CXP boosts and likely CXP weekends will happen. It's very likely when BioWare finds it necessary that they will provide means to help newcomers catch up if the problem you describe happens to be enough of an issue.

 

ROFL. yep. this is definitely what going mad feels like. because dude? YOU are the one who doesn't understand and doesn't remember.

 

I was actualy here at early acess. I didn't get to level 50 until several months into expansion. and I remember very well how much it sucked in olden ways. what we have right now? IS WORSE. except leveling to 70 is MUCH faster now, what will all the class quests giving so much xp that you barely need to do anything else. not to mention free lvl 65 token that every subscriber gets just for being a subscriber. and then you come to the end game... and hit a screeching halt.

 

I just. speechless. congratulations. you have rendered me speechless. not because your argument is that good. becasue its that bad and THAT insane

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The nay-sayers who say the system is abhorrent and has ruined the game are those who believe they are entitled to the best gear immediately.

 

Galactic Command is a system that benefits all, not just the few. I am a veteran player and I support this new system.

 

These are the biggest two filthy lies in your post. I am against this system and I never, not even once said I wanted the best gear immediately and neither did others. So you should really be ashamed of lying so blatantly. It's disgusting.

 

Secondly, as per your own post, there are nay-sayers and therefore it doesn't benefit all per definition. In fact in life there is no such thing as one system for all. You're delusional and a liar. It would've been fine if you were happy with RNG gearing but to come out with such lies is below anything I've seen here in a long time.

 

I'd like to think you're just trolling but I fear it's not the case.

 

There are people for and against the system and they all have their reasons, but blatant falsehoods like this...well, you did have to cross a bridge too far for this.

 

I also am a veteran player from the start and I do NOT support this new system and I never asked to get the best gear immediately.

 

Stop *********** lying.

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you are not. seeing it. from a perspective. of actual. casual. and/or. new. player.

 

this system makes it IMPOSSIBLE for them to catch up. prior to that - it was actualy more inclusive, becasue no matter when you started playing, you could catch up and be on par with veterans. now? thanks to the time consuming grind that you CANNOT circumvent? new players will never. EVER catch up. casual players have no chance. this system is the exact opposite of inclusive.

 

 

 

for god's sakes. its not about hitting the cap. its about falling behind on gear progression. permanently. it takes a LONG time just to start getting rank 2 crates, let alone rank 3 crates, and then you are bound behind rng. if you start later? you are hopelessly behind.

 

another point, you are on a raid group and your healer gets abducted by aliens. You need a new healer. You tell the group "we have a spare DPS so I will make a healer!" you level your new healer to 70, and realize it will be at least 6 months till your gear will be anywhere sufficient to heal the group. good luck with that.

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Inclusiveness

 

I don't know how you can say this when it naturally excludes anyone that does not have the time to grind or plays more then one character.

 

I like that with this system you can get the best gear, however it excludes me from getting what I had previously, I had all my alts fully PvP'd geared and very well PVE'd geared. That is an impossibility with this system or a several year prospect.

 

Not going to do it.

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I agree with the OP but I also disagree. The Command Crates has the potential to be a good system. The ability to get decent gear (or BIS even) from pure chance is a benefit, this allows those who do not do operations a chance of getting the great gear in the game plus a lot of other goodies, this is commendable. But, the best gear in the game should and always come from the performing the highest risk activities, I.E. Veteran (Hard Mode) and Master (Nightmare) Operations.

 

This is risk v reward, veterans are rewards for putting in the hard word of downing the Operation bosses. This should ALWAYS be where the best gear in the game should come from. Having an alternative path to great gear is a wonderful alternative, but we did have that in a way, you could grind away on Flashpoints and Heroics and score yourself (in pre 5.0 land) and nice set of 216 with some 224 pieces (no set bonus) you but in effort and you can see yourself building the crystals to get your next reward, tangible benefit.

 

BUT, the Command Crates RNG system means a person can get a full set of the best Tier 1 gear in the first 15 levels of GC, another might not see any piece of it before entering Tier 2. They have enabled the operations path the fastest way to grind up the levels of galactic command, but your risk by doing operations to get tokens for CXP is not the reward v risk model.

 

I think it is a step in the right direction but they need to enable people to do the hardest content in the game and get rewarded for it beyond pets, mounts and CXP tokens.

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Perhaps you weren't here at launch, but leveling to level 50 didn't used to be as insanely fast as it is now. It actually took quite a bit of effort and quite a few hours. Do you know what BioWare ultimately did to help newcomers catch up? They did double exp weekends. They did 12x exp weekends. Eventually BioWare completely overhauled leveling and made it where everybody would level faster. I do not understand why you fail to understand the same thing will happen with CXP.

 

You assume it will forever be some unfriendly system where players will be behind for months and can never catch up. You merely show your lack of understanding of SWTOR's past. As I said, CXP boosts and likely CXP weekends will happen. It's very likely when BioWare finds it necessary that they will provide means to help newcomers catch up if the problem you describe happens to be enough of an issue.

 

Check my profile... I was here a LONG TIME before launch, since 2009. I was also involved in the game since the earliest betas- when regular run of the mill mobs were like gold elites were today.

 

Now, to your point. It is either trolling or clueless. I can't tell which.

 

Sure, they could do what they did with leveling. Except, what if leveling didn't have a cap, like the CxP system doesn't. Now you, the newcomer is level 10. The Veteran is already level 300. Then the 12x CxP weekend hits. By the end of that weekend you make it to level 50, and the Veteran with no cap is now level 330. You will never catch up and forever be the newcomer. And this gap will only widen as time goes by.

Edited by Wayshuba
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The only thing this system is designed to do is to force people to sub for exceedingly long amounts of time. There's nothing else to it. And it achieved it - if you ignore all the people cancelling their subs.

 

It ultimately screws things up for progression raiders - they no longer can obtain gear to do, you know, progression raiding. When raiders started to quit in 4.0 over gear being too accessible, you could have possibly called them "crybabies" and call them out on not playing game for fun. I wouldn't do that, but it was possible and had some merit. However, now progression raiders are robbed of basic means to do the content they enjoy, instead being forced to do content they obviously enjoy less. Not to mention how old and over-done to death this content is. Amount of time they need to waste on said content is just insult to injury at this point.

 

I don't think gearing changes matter that much in PVP, but I'm overall not too familiar with that aspect of game.

 

So, now let's address casual crowd. And let's remember for a moment that nobody of them needs BiS gear. They want it, but they don't need it, and can live perfectly without. Now, let's forget that point for a moment.

 

First of all, there are better ways to make BiS gear accessible to casual crowd. In GW2, for example, BiS gear either drops from high-end PVE activity, or gets crafted. And crafting is actually more reliable way to get it. Now, it includes grinding for materials and/or gold required, plus has some time-gating included, but ultimately you can get full set of BiS armor and weaponry in 1-2 months. And that's me being quite lazy about it, without optimizing my farming and just playing game for fun on evenings. Even if you are being very slow about it - you yourself determine which piece of gear do you want, and you work towards it on your terms and timing. Once you finish it - you get exactly what you farmed and worked for.

 

What TOR offers is at LEAST 200+ hours of grind. That factor alone puts most casuals off - despite what people think, casuals aren't group opposed to raiders. They are group opposed to grinders. Casuals will not grind 200+ hours for gear, that they don't even need. Once they compare their desire to get that gear with amount of boring time required for it, they'll most likely say "**** it". Those who won't, probably aren't working towards gear to begin with, and as such are not claimed target audience for this cancer.

 

Oh, and NOW we are getting to the juiciest part. RNG. Another game I'm playing is Warframe, where building stuff is centered around obtaining 4 pieces of it by means of RNG drops. 4. Not 14, like here. Only 4. You know how long it took me to get some of those sets? Half-a-***********-year of grinding missions supposed to drop it. At this point I have 700 hours in, and not so long ago I discovered that I STILL don't have one of most basic weapon mods, dropped from like 10 or 12 sources with quite solid chances. After 700 hours. I still don't have it. Let this settle for a moment.

 

People claiming it will only take 300 ranks to get full BiS are very naive, or not too familiar (yet) with nature of RNG gearing. Look here guys, I don't want to say it, but all of you aspirants are looking at pretty good chance of NEVER completing a single set. Some of you, more unlucky ones, will never get a single part of it. Becouse it's RNG, and RNGesus hates you. All of you. God spare you if you will try to gear more than 1 character. Becouse that is literally impossible. Literally.

 

Bottom line - the system is done only for the sake of artificially extending subscription times, and for BW to sell boosters for CXP. It serves absolutely nobody, not raiders and sure as hell not casuals, and is deliberately designed to hinder their progress in all ways possible. Bioware showed no desire to ease this ******** on us, as their instant-nerf illustrated. I wish they would be just as quick with bug-fixing. As such, system should be KILLED WITH *********** FIRE. And all the people white-knighting this system - how much are you guys getting paid?

Edited by Frenesi
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*snip*

 

That's just the thing - this is the single most exclusive system they could have introduced. As it currently stands, in order to get geared, which is not some "end goal" but a prerequisite for NiM content - a gateway keeping people out and nothing more - you have to grind tons of content you may hate merely because it's the most efficient way to gain CXP and thus check that off your list of things you need in order to run the content you find enjoyable. This is bad for everyone, especially new players. Why?

 

Whether in this or any other game, I will always take a new player along in a raid, even if it means wiping the whole evening, if it means showing them the content and hopefully helping them learn what it's about. Back under the old system, which under 4.0 was the best it'd ever been, I could simply offer to build a raid group to take them through the highlighted OP and get them geared before we went into the harder raids. Even for bosses which don't necessarily require BiS gear, it helped to make up for the lack of experience that player brought to the group. Now what am I supposed to do - tell a new player "sorry, tough luck, go grind solo content for 3 months then come back?" I refuse to do so, and will leave any raid group that tells someone that faster than you can say "elitist pig," but that doesn't make the evenings full of wipes any more fun because we can't gear up to the point where that learning curve isn't quite so steep.

 

Fact is, quicker and easier access to BiS gear is good for everyone other than the elitists who like to lord the "I have gear and you don't" attitude over others. So I repeat: the GC system isn't all bad, and I have no problem with people being able to gear up that way, but we need a way to quickly and reliably gear up our alts and newcomers to our raid group that doesn't involve a months-long RNG grind.

Edited by Aulus_Claudius
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Check my profile... I was here a LONG TIME before launch, since 2009. I was also involved in the game since the earliest betas- when regular run of the mill mobs were like gold elites were today.

 

Now, to your point. It is either trolling or clueless. I can't tell which.

 

Sure, they could do what they did with leveling. Except, what if leveling didn't have a cap, like the CxP system doesn't. Now you, the newcomer is level 10. The Veteran is already level 300. Then the 12x CxP weekend hits. By the end of that weekend you make it to level 50, and the Veteran with no cap is now level 330. You will never catch up and forever be the newcomer. And this gap will only widen as time goes by.

 

The Galactic Command level cap is 300. We don't even know exactly how this system will evolve when the next expansion hits. BioWare could just increase the Galactic Command level, or they could reset everybody's level back to 1. If it's the former, BioWare will likely do something similar to 60/65 tokens so players can catch up. If it's the latter, then there is no cause for concern that newcomers will never catch up.

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Giving progression raiders preferential treatment invalidates what Galactic Command attempts to achieve. This is not a solution.

 

Aowin, you have had an anti operations agenda since your first posts. Sorry if I dont take your "ideas and explanations" seriously. You just think that people shouldnt be rewardedfor content, that you either Cant do, or dont want to. The real test of whether this works, is how many subs they lose due the system. Honestly I am at the point where I hope the give

People like you what you want so the exodus can begin. Which is allready happening.

 

there is no reason to NOT maintain the previous operations gear scheme, and provide the RNG for casuals that either do t have the personal nature, or ability to do operations, therefor want to screw it up for all others.

 

enjoy your rng hell, pretty sure BW is going to lose money on this.

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The only thing this system is designed to do is to force people to sub for exceedingly long amounts of time. There's nothing else to it. And it achieved it - if you ignore all the people cancelling their subs.

 

It ultimately screws things up for progression raiders - they no longer can obtain gear to do, you know, progression raiding. When raiders started to quit in 4.0 over gear being too accessible, you could have possibly called them "crybabies" and call them out on not playing game for fun. I wouldn't do that, but it was possible and had some merit. However, now progression raiders are robbed of basic means to do the content they enjoy, instead being forced to do content they obviously enjoy less. Not to mention how old and over-done to death this content is. Amount of time they need to waste on said content is just insult to injury at this point.

 

I don't think gearing changes matter that much in PVP, but I'm overall not too familiar with that aspect of game.

 

So, now let's address casual crowd. And let's remember for a moment that nobody of them needs BiS gear. They want it, but they don't need it, and can live perfectly without. Now, let's forget that point for a moment.

 

First of all, there are better ways to make BiS gear accessible to casual crowd. In GW2, for example, BiS gear either drops from high-end PVE activity, or gets crafted. And crafting is actually more reliable way to get it. Now, it includes grinding for materials and/or gold required, plus has some time-gating included, but ultimately you can get full set of BiS armor and weaponry in 1-2 months. And that's me being quite lazy about it, without optimizing my farming and just playing game for fun on evenings. Even if you are being very slow about it - you yourself determine which piece of gear do you want, and you work towards it on your terms and timing. Once you finish it - you get exactly what you farmed and worked for.

 

What TOR offers is at LEAST 200+ hours of grind. That factor alone puts most casuals off - despite what people think, casuals aren't group opposed to raiders. They are group opposed to grinders. Casuals will not grind 200+ hours for gear, that they don't even need. Once they compare their desire to get that gear with amount of boring time required for it, they'll most likely say "**** it". Those who won't, probably aren't working towards gear to begin with, and as such are not claimed target audience for this cancer.

 

Oh, and NOW we are getting to the juiciest part. RNG. Another game I'm playing is Warframe, where building stuff is centered around obtaining 4 pieces of it by means of RNG drops. 4. Not 14, like here. Only 4. You know how long it took me to get some of those sets? Half-a-***********-year of grinding missions supposed to drop it. At this point I have 700 hours in, and not so long ago I discovered that I STILL don't have one of most basic weapon mods, dropped from like 10 or 12 sources with quite solid chances. After 700 hours. I still don't have it. Let this settle for a moment.

 

People claiming it will only take 300 ranks to get full BiS are very naive, or not too familiar (yet) with nature of RNG gearing. Look here guys, I don't want to say it, but all of you aspirants are looking at pretty good chance of NEVER completing a single set. Some of you, more unlucky ones, will never get a single part of it. Becouse it's RNG, and RNGesus hates you. All of you. God spare you if you will try to gear more than 1 character. Becouse that is literally impossible. Literally.

 

Bottom line - the system is done only for the sake of artificially extending subscription times, and for BW to sell boosters for CXP. It serves absolutely nobody, not raiders and sure as hell not casuals, and is deliberately designed to hinder their progress in all ways possible. Bioware showed no desire to ease this ******** on us, as their instant-nerf illustrated. I wish they would be just as quick with bug-fixing. As such, system should be KILLED WITH *********** FIRE. And all the people white-knighting this system - how much are you guys getting paid?

 

Brlliant and well thought out post.

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Aowin, you have had an anti operations agenda since your first posts. Sorry if I dont take your "ideas and explanations" seriously. You just think that people shouldnt be rewardedfor content, that you either Cant do, or dont want to. The real test of whether this works, is how many subs they lose due the system. Honestly I am at the point where I hope the give

People like you what you want so the exodus can begin. Which is allready happening.

 

there is no reason to NOT maintain the previous operations gear scheme, and provide the RNG for casuals that either do t have the personal nature, or ability to do operations, therefor want to screw it up for all others.

 

enjoy your rng hell, pretty sure BW is going to lose money on this.

 

Sir, I used to be a progression raider. I had a full set of Nightmare Rakata armor for my guardian main tank at launch and had the first republic progression group to down NiM EV and Soa on my original server - Shien. It took us seven hours to down Soa due to the bugs, broken mechanics, and the fact that ball lightnings would take most of your health. There was no margin for even the smallest errors.

 

I am well aware of how progression raiding works and the pitfalls of such a system for the majority of the player base. It is not inclusive at all. BioWare essentially created a system that only benefits the top, players like myself, while disregarding everybody else.

 

Progression raiders do not like the fact that they are being placed on an even playing field with everybody else. I understand the frustration. I'm also a long-time PvPer and sentiments are very much the same that top tier players are now forced on the same level with newcomers and non-pvpers. From the perspective of a veteran and a top-tier player, this new system can be unsettling.

 

However, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. BioWare is doing this for the longevity and health of the game, and I respect that decision.

Edited by Aowin
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However, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. BioWare is doing this for the longevity and health of the game, and I respect that decision.

 

It's going to back fire on them. People are going to start to experience the grind/rng and give up. The only people that will be left are the few that will be able to stomach it or only play one character.

 

They are alienating a good % of their population. And no, it is not top tier players only. It's all levels from casuals to top tier, and frankly I find it odd (trying to be nice) that there is anyone that does not see this.

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funny story. imagine you start playing few months down the road. a friend brings you in or you just hear about it later for whatever reason. you level up, you start exploring what you can do at end game. except... everyone else is well above you in gear and there are NO catch up mechanics. just grind from scratch. and you will never catch up. there is just no way. no more friends you made running your through content to get you geared up quickly and playing the same content they do. no more buying gear you miss from vendors. just you will never EVER catch up if you didn't start early enough - grind.

 

oh yeah. so inclusive.

 

yeah, exactly this.

and not only that. only 3, 4 people on my raiding team play regularly every day. some just joined for our scheduled raids. in a few weeks, that different will start to show. they will get behind and we cant do anything to help them....

 

this "inclusiveness" kinda rewards those can put many hours every day and leaves behind those who don't. inclusive my ***

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It's going to back fire on them. People are going to start to experience the grind/rng and give up. The only people that will be left are the few that will be able to stomach it or only play one character.

 

They are alienating a good % of their population. And no, it is not top tier players only. It's all levels from casuals to top tier, and frankly I find it odd (trying to be nice) that there is anyone that does not see this.

 

The false assumption many are making here is believing that BioWare will not take steps to further refine Galactic Command as well as provide opportunities to catch up in command ranks. We know these features are coming and BioWare will make it viable for alts to be leveled without the worry of having to grind hundreds of hours on every individual character. This has already been addressed by BioWare. My advice to you is to wait for the upcoming Live Stream where BioWare will talk about Galactic Command and its future in SWTOR.

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I don't directly disagree with the OP's points, but.. (and it's a big one)

 

The is not nearly enough RNG mitigation mechanics. The "disintegration" mechanic is not nearly good enough. There needed to be an outer bound that guaranteed "no more than X" crates before obtaining a complete set of gear in a tier; and it needed to be published. (This does not have to be via tokens, I've seen it done successfully by tracking treasure-drop "misses," so that after X duplicate drops, you're guaranteed a non-duplicate. There'd need to be a slightly more complex system for this than the one I have direct experience with, though.)

 

I've been hearing varying reports of how fast you get a crate. My own personal experience is a Small Sample Size, so I'm not going to rely on it yet; but the rates I've seen people complaining of are a fair bit lower than I was expecting. Volume of crate acquisition is another anti-RNG mechanism, and that seems to be not used as such either.

 

_______________________________________

 

On a more meta note, 5.0 continues the way forward started by 4.0, whereby they are basically releasing a "sequel" to SWTOR without cutting off the previous game entirely. This is SWTOR II; for better or for worse, only you got to keep your characters and stuff. Other than the graphics engine and the legacy content, it's a whole new game, with new rules. Gutsy move. May not work. It wouldn't be the first time a sequel to a successful gaming franchise crashed and burned.

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I don't mind GC as much as I mind getting one point for a gold, really, a gold is worth one point! If you going to have a systems where you have to grind to get the chance to get the gear you want, at least make it a little easier to get the GC exp
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