RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Aowin]

This statement is completely wrong. You're not guaranteed a gear piece. I've opened 10 crates and not ONE has had a set-bonus gear piece, a non-cosmetic gear piece, an implant or relic. I've received multiple schematics but unfortunately they've been the SAME ones! I only need 1! The only gear I've received is cosmetic pieces that are ugly and not worth even opening the crate. I've got enough of these from alliance and DvL crate opening that I don't need more.

 

It's easy to say disintegrate and move on, but when you're constantly doing that and getting NOTHING from the next crate that you'd just received from the prior one, it gets OLD really fast!

 

The obvious flaw in your argument is the inability to discern a gear piece, which you get in every crate, versus a set piece. The latter is much more difficult and should be. The former drops in every command crate and is likely better than what you are currently wearing. This entitled mentality of having to achieve the entire set piece bonus now is destructive and misplaced.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Aowin

[Bonzenaattori]

The obvious flaw in your argument is the inability to discern a gear piece, which you get in every crate, versus a set piece. The latter is much more difficult and should be. The former drops in every command crate and is likely better than what you are currently waiting. This entitled mentality of having to achieve the entire set piece bonus now is destructive and misplaced.

 

This argument simply dismantles a current issue only to run into a bigger one.

Good luck when that happens

[IFranchizeI]

Giving progression raiders preferential treatment invalidates what Galactic Command attempts to achieve. This is not a solution.

 

What is it the Galatic Command is trying to achieve? Casual gamers could careless if they have 208/209/20?? gear. The new system is meant to reward time vs content that is all. You really believe people should only be rewarded for time not the difficulty in content. Hell even the RNG god's in diablo gave you better gear for better content. This goes against all LOGIC period. Remove thy tin foil hat bro.

[Wayshuba]

A vocal minority can appear as if they are the majority if they make enough noise for long enough. The current climate of the forums is not indicative of majority trends. As always, it is the most disgruntled players acting as if the sky is falling and the game is doomed. This behavior is not new to the SWTOR forums.

 

Funny that. Because the last time the forums lite up with this many notices of cancellation actually resulted in almost 75% of subs being cancelled, SWTOR getting the monikor the "Tortanic" in the press, and a F2P system being implemented to try and salvage the game.

 

But then again, they were just the vocal minority.

[IanArgent]

Is set bonus critical or not? I get told both, depending on which supports the other person's arguments against me.

 

(IMO, it shouldn't be important).

[Aulus_Claudius]

OTOH, I should probably disclose that I think the whole "you derive most of your stats from gear, not from character sheet" to be a sad relic of first-flight tabletop RPGs that should not be found in MMOs, and that the whole "gear grind" is a terrible mechanic. Higher-difficulties should not be gear-gated.

A thousand times this. Everyone having the same stats and eliminating the gear grind would allow people to take part in any content they would like without gating, and eliminate the elitism inherent in any raid-based gearing system. The mechanic for this is already in place in the bolster system; they'd just have to refine the numbers and make it universal.

 

Unfortunately you're right: gear is unlikely to go anywhere, but 4.0 was huge step in that direction. I'm incredibly sad to see them go backward like this.

[Aulus_Claudius]

Is set bonus critical or not? I get told both, depending on which supports the other person's arguments against me.

 

(IMO, it shouldn't be important).

It depends on the class, and I don't have all the set boni committed to memory, but for a sniper for example the energy regeneration it provides is vital to make the rotation work.

[Wayshuba]

BioWare is doing this for the longevity and health of the game, and I respect that decision.

 

Now THAT is the funniest statement I have read in a long, long time.

 

So you are saying that something A LOT of paying customers know is bad, that two of the most popular MMO newsites said is terrible (or more properly, what the heck is BW thinking), and probably the most referenced fansite is even criticizing for how ludicrous it is, that BW is doing this for the longevity and health of the game?

 

Based on the server populations with the 5.0 launch versus the 4.0 launch, and the number of posts mentioning their sub cancellation, it seems BW is failing miserably at that goal.

[doelow]

The obvious flaw in your argument is the inability to discern a gear piece, which you get in every crate, versus a set piece. The latter is much more difficult and should be. The former drops in every command crate and is likely better than what you are currently waiting. This entitled mentality of having to achieve the entire set piece bonus now is destructive and misplaced.

 

You raise some valid points in your OP about new player retention and barrier to entry regarding end-game, but I think focusing on the "entitlement" portion of the community is wrong. Sure, there are people who want their gear and they want it now. They want something for nothing. In other words, they don't want to play a game. I think those people are not the real problem here though, as they will -never- be content.

 

I think the real problem, and I said this in another thread this morning, is that people aren't finding the new system fun. It doesn't matter if it WORKS. I've no doubt it works. Given enough time, you will get the gear you want. Definitely. The problem is that people aren't enjoying that experience. If your players aren't finding something fun or enjoyable, what incentive do they have to do it? If the system feels bad, then that should be enough to question it.

 

Player feelings do matter. Perception matters. The vast majority of people are going to put their enjoyment in a game before the technicalities of it. They are less interested in the fact that the system eventually works itself out in respect to their gear, and more concerned with the fact that participating in the system itself feels bad and not fun.

 

They screwed with the rewards cycle of the game, and that is their right certainly, but they ought to at least replace it with something that feels good to players or people will just not play.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Best......Troll......Post.......Ever......

[RiVaN_]

A thousand times this. Everyone having the same stats and eliminating the gear grind would allow people to take part in any content they would like without gating, and eliminate the elitism inherent in any raid-based gearing system. The mechanic for this is already in place in the bolster system; they'd just have to refine the numbers and make it universal.

 

Unfortunately you're right: gear is unlikely to go anywhere, but 4.0 was huge step in that direction. I'm incredibly sad to see them go backward like this.

 

100% Agree.

A progression system should be about character stats, buffs and improvements. Not gear. Gear will always be sought after, but make it different types of set bonuses that bolster the stats that you are improving in the progression system.

 

The progression system should allow each player to focus on their role as a Tank, healer or DPS. A progression system based entirely on the acquisition of gear and then make those gear drops subject to RNG and add in that you have to gain over 1.2MILLION points to reach max level and still have a chance to never get a full set bonus or even a full set of end game gear?

 

Worst

Progression system

EVER!

[Bonzenaattori]

Its ironic that it's almost painful that those who side with the argument "RNG is good for SWTOR" tend to bring up the point about how gear is the main barrier for new players...

Yet you realize that RNG is still the methodology on GETTING GEAR!

Nothing has changed except the method. You still have to get gear! You're still at the mercy of luck, whether its winning the gear via a Roll/Need/Greed System, or by opening a god damn box!

 

Your argument wouldn't even work on a naive 5 year old just stop trying to hard to advocate and just enjoy the game if you like it so much LMAO

Edited December 5, 2016 by Bonzenaattori

[IanArgent]

It depends on the class, and I don't have all the set boni committed to memory, but for a sniper for example the energy regeneration it provides is vital to make the rotation work.

 

I invite you to look at my posting history concerning how much I dislike that set bonuses are critical to make classes work as intended because of the way they change mechanics of rotations and cooldowns. (Same goes for some utilities). I don't mind that set bonus ups raw damage or mitigation, but by changing the rotations, energy restoration rates, or cooldowns on powers, (via whatever mechanism; often it appears to be by boosting crit rates on powers where a crit procs something else critical). They toned down the importance of set bonus in 4.0 (I'm still hot about how you needed set bonus in 3.x to take the minimum range off saber throw for a guardian), but it's still too "important" to rotations.

[Aowin]

You raise some valid points in your OP about new player retention and barrier to entry regarding end-game, but I think focusing on the "entitlement" portion of the community is wrong. Sure, there are people who want their gear and they want it now. They want something for nothing. In other words, they don't want to play a game. I think those people are not the real problem here though, as they will -never- be content.

 

I think the real problem, and I said this in another thread this morning, is that people aren't finding the new system fun. It doesn't matter if it WORKS. I've no doubt it works. Given enough time, you will get the gear you want. Definitely. The problem is that people aren't enjoying that experience. If your players aren't finding something fun or enjoyable, what incentive do they have to do it? If the system feels bad, then that should be enough to question it.

 

Player feelings do matter. Perception matters. The vast majority of people are going to put their enjoyment in a game before the technicalities of it. They are less interested in the fact that the system eventually works itself out in respect to their gear, and more concerned with the fact that participating in the system itself feels bad and not fun.

 

They screwed with the rewards cycle of the game, and that is their right certainly, but they ought to at least replace it with something that feels good to players or people will just not play.

 

Galactic Command is brand new and it rewrites many traditions that we have come to expect in SWTOR. Of course there will be an outcry from some. Many people always tend to be wary and hesitant to change. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad, however. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've been here for all of its various iterations. I'm adjusting just fine and see no overarching problems with the new system in place. Again, what we are seeing time and time again on the forums are predominantly progression raiders who are only interested in doing nightmare content now and they can no longer do so.

 

The RNG aspect is being blown out of proportion. Virtually every crate I have opened has given me something I have needed. Sure, I've only gotten one set piece bonus currently. However, that hasn't stopped me from upgrading and continuing to improve my character. The full set piece bonus will come in time. 5.0 isn't even a week old and people are proclaiming the sky is falling. I've seen this behavior before. People will either leave or adapt and the game will continue onward. Again, a large part of the problem here is a sense of entitlement because BioWare has made gear progression in this game so fast and so easy for too long. It's time for a change.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Aowin

[Garmius]

Galactic Command is brand new and it rewrites many traditions that we have come to expect in SWTOR. Of course there will be an outcry from some. Many people always tend to be weary and hesitant to change. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad, however. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've been here for all of its various iterations. I'm adjusting just fine and see no overarching problems with the new system in place. Again, what we are seeing time and time again on the forums are predominantly progression raiders who are only interested in doing nightmare content now and they can no longer do so.

 

The RNG aspect is being blown out of proportion. Virtually every crate I have opened has given me something I have needed. Sure, I've only gotten one set piece bonus currently. However, that hasn't stopped me from upgrading and continuing to improve my character. The full set piece bonus will come in time. 5.0 isn't even a week old and people are proclaiming the sky is falling. I've seen this behavior before. People will either leave or adapt and the game will continue onward. Again, a large part of the problem here is a sense of entitlement because BioWare has made gear progression in this game so fast and so easy for too long. It's time for a change.

 

So far i have gotten 1 piece that was an upgrade.

[curulz]

Galactic Command is brand new and it rewrites many traditions that we have come to expect in SWTOR. Of course there will be an outcry from some. Many people always tend to be weary and hesitant to change. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad, however. .

 

Wait, so the outcry over the recent Elite nerf came from progression raiders? If so there are quite a few progression raiders still left in the game....so maybe BW should cater to them after all since their numbers have been greatly under reported. Excellent!

 

You are right about one thing though, the outcry doesn't make the system bad. Its the bad system that makes the system bad.

[doelow]

Galactic Command is brand new and it rewrites many traditions that we have come to expect in SWTOR. Of course there will be an outcry from some. Many people always tend to be weary and hesitant to change. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad, however. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've been here for all of its various iterations. I'm adjusting just fine and see no overarching problems with the new system in place. Again, what we are seeing time and time again on the forums are predominantly progression raiders who are only interested in doing nightmare content now and they can no longer do so.

 

The RNG aspect is being blown out of proportion. Virtually every crate I have opened has given me something I have needed. Sure, I've only gotten one set piece bonus currently. However, that hasn't stopped me from upgrading and continuing to improve my character. The full set piece bonus will come in time. 5.0 isn't even a week old and people are proclaiming the sky is falling. I've seen this behavior before. People will either leave or adapt and the game will continue onward. Again, a large part of the problem here is a sense of entitlement because BioWare has made gear progression in this game so fast and so easy for too long. It's time for a change.

 

I tend to dial back the outrage a few volume levels, so I'm skeptical of anyone saying that it's the end of the world here. I still maintain that some tweaking might be required though if people are still feeling bad about it by the end of the month. There is no reason to ever be so stubborn as to dig your heels in against your players over something they do not enjoy. Time will most certainly tell though, and you are right, it hasn't been long enough to make an accurate assessment of the system. Much of the hullabaloo is certainly people reacting negatively to change itself.

 

Can I ask why progression raiders can no longer "only" do nightmare content? I was under the impression that raiding content rewarded more CxP than other activities. Or are you referencing the loss of raiding rewards being "unique" to raiding?

[Morrolan]

These anti-newcomer systems discourage new players and prevent the game from truly growing over time. The longer the MMO is around, the less likely newcomers are to join. Herein lies why Galactic Command is an ingenious system.

 

BioWare has equalized the playing field and made a system that is fair to all.

 

Except you know preferred and f2p players, so really not that inclusive.

[Kingsbount]

There's only ONE way to fix situation:

 

1. Return tokens to operations.

2. Remove RNG factor from GCBoxes and make them drop tokens with option to choose which token you need.

3. Remove GCExperince gains from operation to prevent multiple tokens gain.

 

A 3 simple steps that will please both parts of SWTOR community.

 

Raiders (and people with very limited time) are happy to gear in operation.

Casuals are happy to gear up doing simple and single-player content.

 

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO IMPLEMENT?

It's so DAMN SIMPLE!!!

[DarthTreize]

Inclusiveness. It's really that simple. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've participated in every major update and every major expansion. This game has slowly but surely been streamlined (some would argue simplified) over time. The goal? To make a more inclusive and accepting experience.

 

One of the biggest problem with all MMOs is newcomer retention. MMOs historically have a bad track record with encouraging new players to join. Why is this? The game is set up in such a way that benefits the veteran over everybody else. This is particularly true with endgame gear progression.

 

The moment a new player comes into the game, they are instantly at a disadvantage and a massive learning curve is needed to understand the complexities of the system. For a veteran to the MMORPG genre, this may not seem like a big deal. However, to folks who have never played an MMO, this is a daunting task.

 

These anti-newcomer systems discourage new players and prevent the game from truly growing over time. The longer the MMO is around, the less likely newcomers are to join. Herein lies why Galactic Command is an ingenious system.

 

BioWare has equalized the playing field and made a system that is fair to all. Whether you are a veteran of five years or you just started playing today, everybody has the same opportunity to achieve gear. Some of you may not like the RNG element, but the actual concept for Galactic Command is solid and worth saving.

 

The nay-sayers who say the system is abhorrent and has ruined the game are those who believe they are entitled to the best gear immediately. Admittedly, this mentality is BioWare's fault. After Battlemaster Bags were removed, BioWare had a knee-jerk reaction and implemented a system where achieving PvP gear was far too easy. This is also true of raiding where gear pieces were switched out with tokens to make the gearing process that much faster.

 

These "quality of life" changes for the veteran player were great, but not necessarily for anybody else. Galactic Command looks to rewrite the many mistakes BioWare has made with gear progression for years. Some of you may not like how it has tremendously slowed down gear progression. But, you should also probably re-evaluate yourselves and ask are you really entitled to having the best gear within days of a major expansion launching.

 

Galactic Command is a system that benefits all, not just the few. I am a veteran player and I support this new system.

 

 

I find that this post is a tad bit directed towards me and I think much of the community believes that although this post isn't necessarily bad, it gives too much credit where it isn't deserved. There is a post about people who are quoting how long it took to get 1 piece of 230 gear (entry level raid gear for lvl 70). Some people are quoting that it took 50+ crates to get one piece of gear. I don't want to say I'm quick at getting command points nor am I a total noob, but as a semi-casual player, I can't even fathom when I'll actually get to 50 crates, let alone how I'd feel if it took that long. Which goes back to one of my posts that I think you were hinting at, in theory, you could get a million crates and not get a single piece of gear. If it's totally random the odd per crate is always the same of getting something. To complicate things, you may not only not get a single piece of gear, you may get the same piece a thousand times. The battlemaster packs or whatever the hell it was for the illum dailies allowed people to get gear when there was absolutely no population for OPs and those running it required you to be geared. If they aren't going to adjust the system they need to make the packs more accessible (increase "odds" of getting gear) or make it easier to "select" the piece you need, i.e. a special command crate that garuntees 1 piece of 230 gear. It's that simple.

[Kingsbount]

Wall of text from White knight

 

Dude, in the case you didn't noticed - there's MAJORITY is against all that crap BW is implemented.

Open your eyes dude.

Open your eyes.

[JabbaWabbA]

casuals won't get geared by this lol. especially after the gold npc nerf. they'll gain ranks far too slow.

 

and what happens next expansion? increase the ranks from 300-500? that or you reset everyone to 0. casuals might be at level 100 by then. gc is fail rng boxes are fail

Edited December 6, 2016 by JabbaWabbA

[Aowin]

I tend to dial back the outrage a few volume levels, so I'm skeptical of anyone saying that it's the end of the world here. I still maintain that some tweaking might be required though if people are still feeling bad about it by the end of the month. There is no reason to ever be so stubborn as to dig your heels in against your players over something they do not enjoy. Time will most certainly tell though, and you are right, it hasn't been long enough to make an accurate assessment of the system. Much of the hullabaloo is certainly people reacting negatively to change itself.

 

Can I ask why progression raiders can no longer "only" do nightmare content? I was under the impression that raiding content rewarded more CxP than other activities. Or are you referencing the loss of raiding rewards being "unique" to raiding?

 

BioWare definitely is aware of the concerns of the player base and they recognized potential issues before 5.0 even went live. I fully expect that there will be tweaks to make leveling on alts easier as well as providing CXP boosts to help make the process faster and more enjoyable. We should be hearing from BioWare in a Producer Live Stream in the next few weeks, so that will likely give us some sense of what BioWare is thinking and where they are going.

 

Progression raiders can do story operations and veteran operations just fine. Their 220/224 rating gear is more than sufficient. The problem for them is they cannot do nightmare (now master) operations because 230 gear will not be sufficient. They are going to need tier two and tier three, which could potentially take months of grinding command levels to reach. That is their issue as they want to be able to do progression raiding now instead of waiting a few months to do it later.

 

Realistically, it never made sense to me that progression raiding was something players could reach within days to weeks of an expansion releasing. The content dries up and then raiders complain there's nothing to do in the game. What BioWare has done is provided a buffer to prevent progression raiders from hitting that point so soon so that BioWare can create new content at a reasonable rate.

[doelow]

BioWare definitely is aware of the concerns of the player base and they recognized potential issues before 5.0 even went live. I fully expect that there will be tweaks to make leveling on alts easier as well as providing CXP boosts to help make the process faster and more enjoyable. We should be hearing from BioWare in a Producer Live Stream in the next few weeks, so that will likely give us some sense of what BioWare is thinking and where they are going.

 

Progression raiders can do story operations and veteran operations just fine. Their 220/224 rating gear is more than sufficient. The problem for them is they cannot do nightmare (now master) operations because 230 gear will not be sufficient. They are going to need tier two and tier three, which could potentially take months of grinding command levels to reach. That is their issue as they want to be able to do progression raiding now instead of waiting a few months to do it later.

 

Realistically, it never made sense to me that progression raiding was something players could reach within days to weeks of an expansion releasing. The content dries up and then raiders complain there's nothing to do in the game. What BioWare has done is provided a buffer to prevent progression raiders from hitting that point so soon so that BioWare can create new content at a reasonable rate.

 

I see, and I tend to agree with you. I think the objection is that there hasn't really been "new" end-game stuff in quite some time, at least not anything that interests raiders, so a tiered end-game system just comes off as cynical and frustrating to them. That's a valid complaint I think, but I'm not sure the developers are to blame entirely. Their resources don't seem to allow for a lot of simultaneous development and that is a shame. If they make good on more group stuff in 2017 I think perhaps the tiered end-game could become more acceptable in people's eyes. It will take time though.

 

We'll see. Star Wars is a killer IP with huge creative potential and Bioware has a great track record as a studio overall. Despite the hate for this game, it remains one of the more popular MMORPG's in a very, very brutal genre. People just need to dial back the cynicism and take a breath; take a break if need be. I take breaks all the time. (This break taking habit of mine really irks my raid leader over on WoW. )

[RiVaN_]

Progression raiders can do story operations and veteran operations just fine. Their 220/224 rating gear is more than sufficient. The problem for them is they cannot do nightmare (now master) operations because 230 gear will not be sufficient. They are going to need tier two and tier three, which could potentially take months of grinding command levels to reach. That is their issue as they want to be able to do progression raiding now instead of waiting a few months to do it later.

 

Realistically, it never made sense to me that progression raiding was something players could reach within days to weeks of an expansion releasing. The content dries up and then raiders complain there's nothing to do in the game. What BioWare has done is provided a buffer to prevent progression raiders from hitting that point so soon so that BioWare can create new content at a reasonable rate.

 

 

The point is that progression raiders don't want to START ALL OVER AGAIN. They were clearing HM and working on NiM content before 5.0.

Ops which they, in some cases, have been playing for 5 years (and are getting really tired of) now with the changes in 5.0 many have to start over in SM ops because the Vet mode ops are tuned to 230 gear. Players who were progressing just fine in HM now have to regress to content that is incredibly easy with no guarantee of ever earning the gear they need to be able to begin progressing again. For those who enjoy progression this isn't just a step backwards (which most can deal with for a short period of time) but it is a step back with out knowing when you will be able to step forward again.

It is about being able to progress, not regress. If you were leveling a new toon would you want BW to set all of your characters back to level 1 with every expansion or update? Raiders don't want to start all over with stuff they cleared years ago simply because BW decided that folks were earning gear to quickly...