RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Tanitha]

I am 1 week in, and while before in about 2 weeks I had the new augments and stuff, I am concentrating mostly on 1 character. Which has Cybertech, but it's my main, and so I have to wait, in order to increase my synth and armstech to get the accuracy/alacrity/crit augments and augmentation kits I need. Plus my main does not have slicing, but Underworld Trading, so I have to get slicing up in another toon. Which would take away time from my main in gearing up. And I don't have millions atm to buy the augments I need...

 

This system sucks. it's not alt friendly, it's not friendly to anyone. I hate the RNG, and it's boring to grind the same stuff we've been doing for 2+ years to get a piece of gear.

[Alphasgimaone]

Completing any standard quest rewards any premium level 70 player the choice of :

 

10 Green crystals

05 Blue Crystals

03 Purple Crystals.

 

Completing any HEROIC mission or SOLO Flashpoint rewards any premium level 70 player the choice of:

 

20 Green crystals

10 Blue Crystals

06 Purple Crystals

 

Premium Players can now purchase Legacy bound stacks of 30 Purple Crystals for 100 Green Crystals or 50 Blue Crystals from the Tier 1 vendor.

 

There. I just made the old system more "inclusive."

 

*NOTE: Values may vary.

 

 

That's not really the issue though. The Devs have spent five years tweaking a gearing system to the point it was as good as anything in the MMO realm only to throw it all away for something that is regressive at best and prohibitively antiquated at worst.

[Aowin]

I'd disagree. I believe GC values luck and volume of play vs skill.

Those that can put in the most time (or setup bots) will rule over those who can't

 

"Skill" is a subjective phrase that has little value in an MMORPG. Knowing basic principles such as the holy trinity, class roles, character rotations, situational awareness, and proper gearing will likely allow you to excel at a high level in most MMOs.

 

Every MMO since the creation of MUDs has always benefited those who invested the most time. It's common sense that those who play the most will benefit the most. That concept was no different pre-5.0 than it is now. However, with the system we have now, BioWare has a lot more control to actually maintain that balanced experience.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Aowin

[Aowin]

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.

 

Randomness by its very nature will be uneven. I've opened >30 packs with 0 set bonuses. I personally don't much care because I'm a tank - but it certainly doesn't feel "even" when I know people with 3 set pieces in 14 levels.

 

Sure, you can say "Well, we have even chances". OK. But if you want me to accept that as valid, you need to accept this as valid too:

 

"Pre 5.0 everyone had an even opportunity to get every piece of gear in the game."

 

Because that is equally true. Your point is in no way more valid than mine. If you wanted any piece of gear in 2.x or 3.x or 4.x all you had to do was go get it. It was there for anyone. No one was barred.

 

In other words, being on an even playing field is not unique to 5.0.

 

#tryharder

 

P.S. Hope to see you at the stream o/

 

Randomness is chance. Chance is fairness. Fairness is equal opportunity. Equal opportunity is balance. Some people win. Some people lose. We are all relegated to the same system. You may not have received a set piece yet, but inevitably you will if you continue investing time in the system. It doesn't matter how unlucky you are, eventually you will get the gear you seek. Pre-5.0, some players never had a chance to acquire certain gear because of content gating them from those opportunities.

 

The problem with your argument is it wasn't just "simple" or "easy" to get the gear pre-5.0. It may have been for you and myself just because we happen to have played this game for years, we knew how to obtain what we wanted, and have connections to acquire these items. That is obviously not true for the average player. Thus, pre-5.0 was a system built on the haves and have-nots. I will be watching the stream curious to see what BioWare has to say and hopefully they can address the various bugs in the game and not this overblown mess about Galactic Command being the worst thing to ever exist.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Aowin

[Jamtas]

Every MMO is and always has been like this.

 

For BIS gear?

[Jamtas]

"Skill" is a subjective phrase that has little value in an MMORPG. Knowing basic principles such as the holy trinity, class roles, character rotations, situational awareness, and proper gearing will likely allow you to excel at a high level in most MMOs.

 

Every MMO since the creation of MUDs has always benefited those who invested the most time. It's common sense that those who play the most will benefit the most. That concept was no different pre-5.0 than it is now. However, with the system we have now BioWare has a lot more control to actually maintain that balanced experience.

 

So a character who relies on their companion to kill everything in heroics or afks in pvp over and over every days for hours on end has better gear than an experienced lets say high skilled player is the way this has always been?

No it's not. To get the top tier gear required more skill and knowing your class/rotation.

Now it is just who is logged in longer..

I'm not arguing against inclusion like you are thinking. Keep GC so everyone can get gear. But put the drops back in operations as well. Let GC be a way to supplement and get bonus things.

[IFranchizeI]

Randomness is chance. Chance is fairness. Fairness is equal opportunity. Some people win. Some people lose. We are all relegated to the same system. You may not have received a set piece yet, but inevitably you will if you continue investing time in the system. You will eventually get a full set piece if you continue to invest time in the experience. Pre-5.0, some players never had a chance to acquire certain gear because of content gating them from those opportunities.

 

The problem with your argument is it wasn't just "simple" or "easy" to get the gear pre-5.0. It may have been for you and myself just because we happen to have played this game for years, we knew how to obtain what we wanted, and have connections to acquire these items. That is obviously not true for the average player. Thus, pre-5.0 was a system built on the haves and have-nots. I will be watching for the stream curious to see what BioWare has to say and hopefully they can address the various bugs in the game and not this overblown mess about Galactic Command being the worst thing to ever exist.

 

Casino's must love you bro.

[Kingsbount]

Every MMO since the creation of MUDs has always benefited those who invested the most time. It's common sense that those who play the most will benefit the most. That concept was no different pre-5.0 than it is now.

 

Wow...

Just... Wow...

 

5.0 system was "un-friendly" to those who didn't have much time to play?

Seriously?

 

NO? SERIOUSLY?!

 

I (playing about 2-2,5 hours and a little longer on weekends) was able to gear up my characters with my GUILD (who's members are also adult people with families and a little spare time), and YOU telling ME, that 5.0 system was NOT FRIENDLY for those who doesn't have much time?!

 

Seriously dear sir, you either troll or just never played this game. EVER.

[IFranchizeI]

Randomness is chance. Chance is fairness. Fairness is equal opportunity. Equal opportunity is balance. Some people win. Some people lose. We are all relegated to the same system. You may not have received a set piece yet, but inevitably you will if you continue investing time in the system. It doesn't matter how unlucky you are, eventually you will get the gear you seek. Pre-5.0, some players never had a chance to acquire certain gear because of content gating them from those opportunities.

 

The problem with your argument is it wasn't just "simple" or "easy" to get the gear pre-5.0. It may have been for you and myself just because we happen to have played this game for years, we knew how to obtain what we wanted, and have connections to acquire these items. That is obviously not true for the average player. Thus, pre-5.0 was a system built on the haves and have-nots. I will be watching the stream curious to see what BioWare has to say and hopefully they can address the various bugs in the game and not this overblown mess about Galactic Command being the worst thing to ever exist.

 

Players have always had the same chance as anyone to get any gear the only requirement was to complete the content. That is not gating anyone; I'll tell you what gating someone is BUY A SUB and now you can get the gear. If anything 5.0 has gated more people than before. Do you honestly sit down and think through your thoughts or do you just rant endlessly.

Edited December 6, 2016 by IFranchizeI

[Alphasgimaone]

I re-subbed on Oct 25 and putzed around for a few days. Made my first DvL char the day before Halloween. He was in total BIS before Thanksgiving.

[Aowin]

So a character who relies on their companion to kill everything in heroics or afks in pvp over and over every days for hours on end has better gear than an experienced lets say high skilled player is the way this has always been?

No it's not. To get the top tier gear required more skill and knowing your class/rotation.

Now it is just who is logged in longer..

I'm not arguing against inclusion like you are thinking. Keep GC so everyone can get gear. But put the drops back in operations as well. Let GC be a way to supplement and get bonus things.

 

You, yourself, are proving the inequality of pre-5.0 and praising it. Obviously, these players who were not "high skilled" did not even have the opportunity to acquire better gear. The fact that they do now proves the system is more inclusive and more fair.

 

To get the top tier gear required being in a raiding guild or being lucky enough to group with players who would carry you through. Some of the best players I've met in MMOs had terrible gear and some of the worst players I've met in MMOs have had the best gear. If you didn't know by now, what you wear is not an indication of player skill or value. On the contrary, what you wear usually is determined by how much time you invest in the game and who you know.

[IFranchizeI]

All is fair in love and war. Edited December 6, 2016 by IFranchizeI

[UnmarkedFaith]

Your first statement is false. I have fifteen crates to date and exactly three gear pieces have dropped. Some other on these forums have gone through a lot more crates for a lot less in gear drops.

 

That is why this system is terrible as implemented. You are NOT guaranteed a gear piece.

 

First, you have a slim chance of getting a piece.

 

Second, that chance becomes even slimmer as you gear up of getting the chance you need.

 

Third, this system is in no way, shape or form fast. It slows down immensely as you get higher levels to the point where a casual player - maybe playing five to ten hours a week - is going to get ONE crate a week. Now imagine going four weeks, getting four crates, and getting NOTHING useful for your time. That is what we have today.

 

This! The OP is totally clueless.

[Jamtas]

You, yourself, are proving the inequality of pre-5.0 and praising it. Obviously, these players who were not "high skilled" did not even have the opportunity to acquire better gear. The fact that they do now proves the system is more inclusive and more fair.

 

To get the top tier gear required being in a raiding guild or being lucky enough to group with players who would carry you through. Some of the best players I've met in MMOs had terrible gear and some of the worst players I've met in MMOs have had the best gear. If you didn't know by now, what you wear is not an indication of player skill or value. On the contrary, what you wear usually is determined by how much time you invest in the game and who you know.

 

actually, i just said GC as a supplement system. And the previous system had a known path. You wanted the MH, you went to EV, TOS and beat that boss. Not you may get it on box 41, 125 or 370. Making things equally bad for everyone is not the direction in fairness/socalism this game should adopt.

 

And for those that want to continue doing HM/NiM raids they have to have that gear/set pieces to have proper mitigation/dps. There is no path except keep playing the lottery - which I think is a step in the wrong direction.

 

A system that allows those who can conquer the challange with skill/group to be rewarded while still allowing those who play at a differnt pace/playstyle can exist. Keep GC and add OP drops. If you're against that, please tell me why

[Aowin]

Casino's must love you bro.

 

Except there is nothing random about gambling. Casinos are biased towards the house winning most of the time. They are a business and their interest is to make money, not lose it. BioWare has created a system that is actually random, and the fear of the unknown and uncertain is what frightens many.

[force_fortytwo]

Now it is just who is logged in longer..

 

Which is a wrong observation. "Standing around rarely accomplishes anything", as Shae Vizla would say. Merely being logged in collects you zero CXP. You actually have to do something...

 

... just saying

[Jamtas]

Which is a wrong observation. "Standing around rarely accomplishes anything", as Shae Vizla would say. Merely being logged in collects you zero CXP. You actually have to do something...

 

... just saying

 

that comment was directed at people who set bots to run pvp/heroics and log in and walk away.

[UnmarkedFaith]

Except there is nothing random about gambling. Casinos are biased towards the house winning most of the time. They are a business and their interest is to make money, not lose it. BioWare has created a system that is actually random, and the fear of the unknown and uncertain is what frightens many.

 

Again clueless man. No offense, but why has WoW 's loot system worked so well?

A newbie plays dungeons to get gear, then mythics/lfr, then enters into normal/heroic's.

The same system was here in the story/hard/NiM modes. IT WORKS.

 

They turned this game into some random crap like Clash Royale. Where your praying for something useful. Days, weeks, months.... all a huge waste of time.

 

People who progress and do certain content should be rewarded. I only raid Heroics cause I want HEROIC gear.

Newbies need to do entry lvl content so they can join us... I mean, its a system thats worked just fine for 10+ years.

 

Look at the other mmo's, Final Fantasy, Lineage 1/2, Wildstar, etc....

 

All use the same progression style system because it works. Nothing entitled about it. You put in the time you get the reward. And trust me, ppl do ops/raids plenty and walk out with nothing, but SOMEONE got SOMETHING to help the guild/group progress for harder content.

[Spockendil]

Completing any standard quest rewards any premium level 70 player the choice of :

 

10 Green crystals

05 Blue Crystals

03 Purple Crystals.

 

Completing any HEROIC mission or SOLO Flashpoint rewards any premium level 70 player the choice of:

 

20 Green crystals

10 Blue Crystals

06 Purple Crystals

 

Premium Players can now purchase Legacy bound stacks of 30 Purple Crystals for 100 Green Crystals or 50 Blue Crystals from the Tier 1 vendor.

 

There. I just made the old system more "inclusive."

 

*NOTE: Values may vary.

 

 

That's not really the issue though. The Devs have spent five years tweaking a gearing system to the point it was as good as anything in the MMO realm only to throw it all away for something that is regressive at best and prohibitively antiquated at worst.

 

As a Day-1 subscriber who followed this game from its initial development announcement to its release, which I thought was going to be the greatest day of my life, but who then quickly fell in hate with the game and left it until a couple of months ago, when I came back to it and have been having a tremendous amount of fun with it ever since,

 

.... I like the system you just designed. I seem to be in the minority in that I don't mind the changes that they've made, but I like your system better.

[IFranchizeI]

Except there is nothing random about gambling. Casinos are biased towards the house winning most of the time. They are a business and their interest is to make money, not lose it. BioWare has created a system that is actually random, and the fear of the unknown and uncertain is what frightens many.

 

Casino slot machines generate random numbers continuously at very high speed and use the most recent result(s) when the user pulls the lever (or hits the button) to spin the reels. Even a simplistic generator can be used

 

Also you realize the same thing you just said about Casino's can be said about BioWare.

 

They are a business and their interest is to make money; they created a system which is random just like a slot machine to make money by making player's sub longer to get the RNG drops.

Edited December 6, 2016 by IFranchizeI

[Aowin]

actually, i just said GC as a supplement system. And the previous system had a known path. You wanted the MH, you went to EV, TOS and beat that boss. Not you may get it on box 41, 125 or 370. Making things equally bad for everyone is not the direction in fairness/socalism this game should adopt.

 

And for those that want to continue doing HM/NiM raids they have to have that gear/set pieces to have proper mitigation/dps. There is no path except keep playing the lottery - which I think is a step in the wrong direction.

 

A system that allows those who can conquer the challange with skill/group to be rewarded while still allowing those who play at a differnt pace/playstyle can exist. Keep GC and add OP drops. If you're against that, please tell me why

 

That won't work. Galactic Command is the only gear progression that makes sense. If you provide alternative paths you merely invalidate Galactic Command. Why would BioWare provide preferential treatment for progression raiders and no one else? Why should you be special? For someone who claims pre-5.0 was fair, you certainly don't seem to be advocating for fair systems. What you actually want is a system that is not fair so that you are not in the same situation as the rest of the player base.

 

Again, the problem with pre-5.0 is while it was certain specific bosses would drop particular loot, you still needed the actual means to get to those bosses. If you didn't have a raiding guild, a competent group, or any means of learning or understanding progression raiding, this was a barrier and a lock of specific gear for many players. That is not fair no matter how you try to justify it. The system was inherently not fair and it was detrimental to new players. That is not a productive way of encouraging new players to play the game and subscribe.

 

The issue many of you are having is the fact that you cannot look at this issue from any perspective other than your own. I understand the frustration of the system for your purposes. That doesn't mean it's not benefiting the majority of the player base.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Aowin

[Jamtas]

That won't work. Galactic Command is the only gear progression that makes sense. If you provide alternative paths you merely invalidate Galactic Command. Why would BioWare provide preferential treatment for progression raiders and no one else? Why should you be special? For someone who claims pre-5.0 was fair, you certainly don't seem to be advocating for fair systems. What you actually want is a system that is not fair so that you are not in the same situation as the rest of the player base.

 

Again, the problem with pre-5.0 is while it was certain specific bosses would drop particular loot, you still needed the actual means to get to those bosses. If you didn't have a raiding guild, a competent group, or any means of learning or understanding progression raiding, this was a barrier and a lock of specific gear for many players. That is not fair no matter how you try to justify it. The system was inherently not fair and it was detrimental to new players. That is not a productive way of encouraging new players to play the game and subscribe.

 

The issue many of you are having is the fact that you cannot look at this issue from any perspective other than your own. I understand the frustration of the system for your purposes. That doesn't mean it's not benefiting the majority of the player base.

 

So here's my counter, those doing the HM/NiM raids actually need the gear. To run planet heroics, chapters, it isn't needed. But people do still want it which I get - and recognize that those pre 5.0 had a hard time getting that gear. And I totally understand the perspective of a player who couldn't raid due to time, server, persoanl feelings, etc. can now earn that gear.

 

GC + ops bosses lets those who need the gear to progress to get it and the GC keeps it open to players who may not be able to get in and raid. It doesn't invalidate the gearing at all. If the purpose of GC was to give everyone a chance at the gear, it still does that. Why do you care that a raider gets the gear faster?

 

The new system does discriminate toward the gear. I only play for the nights I raided with my friends in game so that would be 4-6 hours a week doing operations.

Now someone who spends 20-30 hours running heroics has an advantage over me and anyone else who can't play that often due to real world.

How is that fair? I can't spend my life in game like a second job?

 

Every single option will have a pro and con / fair vs not fair, Aowin. You can say the new one is more inclusive and I wouldn't disagree. But what I suggested is still inclusive but also lets skill move up faster - which is true in almost every game - rather than it let moving up faster be dependent on how much you spend buying boosts from the CM. I'd say a system that rewards those who spend more real life or in game $ to progress quicker is more unfair

[Jamtas]

Furthermore, I also wanted to touch on what you said was a major benefit of the new system

 

The moment a new player comes into the game, they are instantly at a disadvantage and a massive learning curve is needed to understand the complexities of the system. For a veteran to the MMORPG genre, this may not seem like a big deal. However, to folks who have never played an MMO, this is a daunting task.

 

These anti-newcomer systems discourage new players and prevent the game from truly growing over time. The longer the MMO is around, the less likely newcomers are to join.

 

So let's say everything in game stays great and we fast forward to a year from now. A new player subs and joins a guild. They have a raiding spot open for the brand new raid that was just released. The current members are GC 280+ and in the highest level gear with their set pieces.

New player now has to grind for 6-8 months to match the gear the team currently has. Do you think that is welcoming to new players? Still inclusive?

Pre 5.0, that team could run the new player through a raid giving them all gear and they are instantly on par gear wise.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Jamtas

[cagthehack]

I think the real problem, and I said this in another thread this morning, is that people aren't finding the new system fun. It doesn't matter if it WORKS. I've no doubt it works. Given enough time, you will get the gear you want. Definitely. The problem is that people aren't enjoying that experience. If your players aren't finding something fun or enjoyable, what incentive do they have to do it? If the system feels bad, then that should be enough to question it.

 

QFT. That's it right there. No one would care if there was a grind, if the grind was fun. Grinding the same old content over and over and over it not fun. Not at all.

 

An example of a good grind; a new raid. If the raid was well done, that would keep the raiders busy for a while. Or some new WZ options. And better rates for mat drops so the crafters stay busy. Or even some new zones.. not just a couple of levels of a city with nothing to explore.. but a new planet with new quests and stories to explore. That's fun. And companions.. can't find the old voice actors.. being on new companions. With new quests and stories. Not these mindless healbots (after level 55) we got now.

 

But we didn't get any of that. Actually we got nothing, except a continuation of a story. That can be completed in a night.

 

And after the story, we are told to go over and run the same FP, Heroics, and PVP we've all done 1000 times. Not fun.

Edited December 7, 2016 by cagthehack

[Aowin]

So here's my counter, those doing the HM/NiM raids actually need the gear. To run planet heroics, chapters, it isn't needed. But people do still want it which I get - and recognize that those pre 5.0 had a hard time getting that gear. And I totally understand the perspective of a player who couldn't raid due to time, server, persoanl feelings, etc. can now earn that gear.

 

GC + ops bosses lets those who need the gear to progress to get it and the GC keeps it open to players who may not be able to get in and raid. It doesn't invalidate the gearing at all. If the purpose of GC was to give everyone a chance at the gear, it still does that. Why do you care that a raider gets the gear faster?

 

The new system does discriminate toward the gear. I only play for the nights I raided with my friends in game so that would be 4-6 hours a week doing operations.

Now someone who spends 20-30 hours running heroics has an advantage over me and anyone else who can't play that often due to real world.

How is that fair? I can't spend my life in game like a second job?

 

Every single option will have a pro and con / fair vs not fair, Aowin. You can say the new one is more inclusive and I wouldn't disagree. But what I suggested is still inclusive but also lets skill move up faster - which is true in almost every game - rather than it let moving up faster be dependent on how much you spend buying boosts from the CM. I'd say a system that rewards those who spend more real life or in game $ to progress quicker is more unfair

 

Why do I care? Because BioWare wants a universal system that is applicable to all, not just to some. I am an avid PvPer and do you think I was happy when expertise was removed from my ranked PvP gear making it worse than common crystal PvE gear? Not at all. If anyone got the short end of the stick with 5.0, it was PvPers. C'est la vie. I got through it and began gearing in the same system everybody else has access to.

 

Again, the problem here is you believe you are entitled to progression raiding now. Based on BioWare's new system, BioWare doesn't want you doing progression raiding merely less than a week after the launch of a new expansion. BioWare wants you to work your way up through the lower difficulty operations and then do progression raiding later in the year. You may not like that, but that's the system BioWare has created and I don't see them changing that just because progression raiders do not like it. Everybody is on the same boat. You can't just get off and find a nicer, faster one leaving everybody else behind.

 

BioWare doesn't have control over your life or the real world. It is up to each individual player to determine how they play and what is best for them. All BioWare can do is make the system fair for everybody in-game. As I said before, even before 5.0, those who invested the most time in the game typically benefited the most. It cannot be disputed that this system is clearly more fair for a majority of the player base, which is why BioWare made this shift in gear progression. I understand your plight. I really do. This is just one of those situations where you'll either have to adapt and make do until BioWare may try to appease your demographic or move on to something else that is more geared towards raiders.