RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Kurj]

GC is a great idea, and so is the unified gear system it supports. I can accept a grind to keep content fresh longer, and I'm hoping that the unified gear system will encourage more people to PVP. I think these were all great ideas to address some problems we had in the game. Thank you, BW, for thinking this up and implementing it.

 

What I am having trouble with is the notion of putting in the work to advance my character and then rolling dice on the reward. Granted, top-tier ops gear has always been that way to an extent, but the odds were much better than the RNG. If you're like me, and prefer to PVP, it was never an issue. You work hard, you keep at it, you get your reward. I liked that about this game. It was also nice being able to see all of the gear you were working for on the vendors. It was a nice carrot that motivated me.

 

I don't think I'm all that different from a lot of the players here. I work full time, this is what I do for a break, and I don't get nearly as much time to do it as I would like. RNG for crates is one thing - it's cosmetics, and it's just some cash that I already decided I could part with. RNG as a gateway at the end of the hard work I have to put in to get the gear I need to enjoy the game, both in terms of my toon's capabilities and my own sense of self-satisfaction? I am having a lot more trouble accepting that. I just don't have that much extra time, and I don't think I'm the only person in this boat.

 

TL;DR - GC is cool, unified gear is cool, RNG for gear is demoralizing.

[Aowin]

Problem? BWA seem to watch to sell GC by giving stat boosts from the gear. Harder to sell the grind if no one is getting any boost at all from GC. GC has all but doomed the idea of nice level non-gear based PVP in this game imo.

 

If there's nothing to achieve, there's no reason to play the game. MMOs, especially, are about achievements. People like achieving something, and gear progression has always been a way of providing achievement to players. Take that away and you largely undermine the entire experience. Again, BioWare is in a catch-22 where they need a gearing system that is fair to everybody but also need a balanced experience between PvP and PvE. In my personal opinion, given that balance is far more crucial in PvP, BioWare shouldn't even worry about the implications changes have on PvE. For the most part, the typical dominant classes in PvE will still dominate in numbers output regardless.

[Khevar]

If there's nothing to achieve, there's no reason to play the game. MMOs, especially, are about achievements. People like achieving something, and gear progression has always been a way of providing achievement to players.

I agree with this.

Take that away and you largely undermine the entire experience.

I disagree with this.

 

Gear progression is but ONE aspect of the "achievement experience". Reducing gear progression does NOT undermine the entire experience.

 

You've described yourself as primarily a PvP player, if memory serves. So tell me:

 

1. Do you play PvP matches until you've geared up your character and then STOP PvPing?

2. OR, do you play PvP matches, gear up your character, and then CONTINUE playing?

 

If the answer is #2, then reducing (or taking away) gear progression has very little effect on your achievement experience as a PvPer.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Khevar

[Quraswren]

Which begs the question, what are they not telling us?

 

Probably not telling us how little new content is actually coming in the next few months. We're getting what? 5 new uprisings maybe January or February? Some watered down FP done in 15 mins and I can't say there interesting enough to be some amazing game player retention given everything else is so old and over used.

 

The whole GC grind is so massive it screams of a gimmick to try and hold players because what is likely to happen is so very little is coming at end game they had to add something in a weak attempt to keep gamers in stale content. Just like the DVL event. Do extremely old content, repeat professions that were not even entertaining the first time, rerun all classes because at this point you can't already have more than one of a class already.

 

A new, massive grind at max level that takes grinding to a whole new level and stretches our gearing into the absurd casino bw has built for swtor.

 

What are they not telling us? Just how little new content is actually coming in the next months and they hope the grind of extremely old content and RNG is enough in their hopes to retain customers.

[Aowin]

You've described yourself as primarily a PvP player, if memory serves. So tell me:

 

1. Do you play PvP matches until you've geared up your character and then STOP PvPing?

2. OR, do you play PvP matches, gear up your character, and then CONTINUE playing?

 

If the answer is #2, then reducing (or taking away) gear progression has very little effect on your achievement experience as a PvPer.

 

Of course I continue to PvP. That doesn't mean I do not like to continue seeing a progression of my gear. Whether it's a level increase or just a new set of armor, it's always nice to achieve something new and better to further incentivize the experience. If all I wanted to do was PvP for the sake of PvP, I wouldn't need to play an MMO. I could play Halo 5: Guardians or Star Wars Battlefront. MMORPGs, as I've said before, are different even for PvP.

 

There should always be a sense of achievement in everything you do. That was certainly true when I invested hours of my time and organized groups so that I could be crowned Emperor of Cyrodiil on my campaign in ESO. Having something like being recognized by the entire campaign as the sole Emperor (along with an exclusive set of armor) provided a sense of achievement that was hard to acquire and gave me more motivation. I like features like that, and if BioWare were to remove any sense of progression in gear for PvP, the entire PvP experience would become more dull, tedious, and repetitive much faster.

 

Moral of the story: it's always nice to have something to look forward to. It doesn't matter what kind of content you are participating in. People like having goals and having new rewards they can reach. Take that away and you merely give more of a reason for players to leave.

[Khevar]

Moral of the story: it's always nice to have something to look forward to. It doesn't matter what kind of content you are participating in. People like having goals and having new rewards they can reach. Take that away and you merely give more of a reason for players to leave.

My moral of the story is that gear is only ONE such goal. And it doesn't need to be the PRIMARY goal.

 

As a player of this game, I tended to find my main character geared up fairly quickly. (And not just during the 4.0 period of "free EV/KP gear" either.) This did NOT suddenly result in my running out of things to do. Quite the contrary, it opened more opportunities for me.

 

Examples:

1. I would spend more time doing PvP, because I felt like I now had a level playing field (something I find desirable)

2. Having quickly geared up my healer, I would spend time gearing up my tank.

3. I would spend time pugging HM Flashpoints just for fun.

etc.

 

In other words, it's not a required design element of an MMO that "obtaining good gear" is the PRIMARY achievement.

 

Do you remember when Strongholds were first added to the game? There were a number of decorations that were added as random drops to flashpoints. And the bonus bosses of HM Flashpoints had a guaranteed drop. There was a noticeable uptick of HM flashpoint participation. And people stopped skipping the bonus bosses.

 

This is but ONE example of an alternative achievement to simply "I got new gear". I'm sure we could both think of plenty of other possible types of achievements that could exist in this game. Things that would keep people playing even AFTER they had their gear.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Khevar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If there's nothing to achieve, there's no reason to play the game. MMOs, especially, are about achievements. People like achieving something, and gear progression has always been a way of providing achievement to players. Take that away and you largely undermine the entire experience. Again, BioWare is in a catch-22 where they need a gearing system that is fair to everybody but also need a balanced experience between PvP and PvE. In my personal opinion, given that balance is far more crucial in PvP, BioWare shouldn't even worry about the implications changes have on PvE. For the most part, the typical dominant classes in PvE will still dominate in numbers output regardless.

 

Well we are only talking removing gear from PVP here and only the stats. There are a multitude of other rewards you could put in like vanity rewards ( which must be sought after since people pay real world money to get their hands on them via CM ).

Also many FAR more successful PVP games than this don't use gear based stats to act as a carrot ( e.g. overwatch, arguably one of the best selling PVP games out there right now ) so your point really doesn't stand up in defending keep stat based gear in this game. If anything, looking at other successful PVP products, it would benefit it even further than it currently does.

[Aowin]

...

 

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I've been playing MMOs ranging from sandbox to theme park for over a decade and gear progression has always been a crucial element in all of them, including SWTOR. I don't think you fully understand what exactly you would lose if such a system were to be entirely stripped from the game. It would make the experience much more superficial and meaningless.

 

I am not using absolutes here. I recognize there are other means of providing achievements. That being said, gear is definitely an important one. Either way, that kind of rapid change in an MMORPG, from my experience, would be naive and ultimately detrimental to the game. Take away incentives for people to want to gear and progress and you'll find there's barely anyone left playing the game.

[Aowin]

Well we are only talking removing gear from PVP here and only the stats. There are a multitude of other rewards you could put in like vanity rewards ( which must be sought after since people pay real world money to get their hands on them via CM ).

Also many FAR more successful PVP games than this don't use gear based stats to act as a carrot ( e.g. overwatch, arguably one of the best selling PVP games out there right now ) so your point really doesn't stand up in defending keep stat based gear in this game. If anything, looking at other successful PVP products, it would benefit it even further than it currently does.

 

Again, this is an MMO. This is not a shooter, like Overwatch. You are comparing apples to oranges. Progression and a sense of achievement mean everything in an MMORPG. Shooters have nothing to do with that as they are merely superficial fun geared towards hand-eye coordination, team work, and fast reflexes. That's an entirely separate discussion that is in no way relevant.

 

As I said to the other poster, I do not believe you truly understand and appreciate what progression and a sense of achievement mean in an MMORPG. They are absolutely essential, especially considering these games never end. Shooters, like Overwatch, are relevant for a few months to a year and then fade into obscurity until the sequel or next big thing releases.

 

A more appropriate comparison would be Destiny, which is actually an MMO. That game, obviously, does have gear progression and new armor sets are constantly releasing on a regular basis. They affect not only PvE but also PvP. This is coming from a developer, Bungie, who had only made shooters previously and never an MMO. Even the creators of Halo recognize the importance and significance of a sense of achievement and gear progression in an MMO.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Aowin

[Khevar]

I don't think you fully understand what exactly you would lose if such a system were to be entirely stripped from the game. It would make the experience much more superficial and meaningless.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that gear be completely removed from the game.

 

I am simply saying that gear progression can be a secondary achievement. Not a primary one. And it used to be. In this very game. Without the experience becoming superficial and meaningless.

 

One used to have a relatively straightforward gearing path. Much less subject to the vagaries of RNG. More under the control of the player.

 

The main reason that "Black Hole commendations" were added to the game, along with "token drops" from operations bosses, was to REDUCE the impact of falling on the left-hand side of the RNG bell curve. Bad "luck" was mitigated for the player through these systems.

 

Now we have a gearing path with less player control.

 

Galactic Command, at it's core, has the potential to be a good thing. The fact that a player can obtain desirable gear through his or her chosen playstyle is (in my opinion) not a bad thing at all.

 

But the GC system is accompanied by:

 

1. 300 ranks (up from the original 100 on the PTS)

2. Character specific (making it harder to gear up alternative roles)

3. RNG gear drops

 

Which present a system that is NOT designed around "how can we make the game fun for the player", but is instead designed around, "how can we make the gearing process as slow as possible and still get away with it"

 

There are other games that took this route. Vanilla Diablo 3. Vanilla Destiny. The Division. You'll notice that all three of these games had troubles until they revisited their gearing design and changed it to REDUCE the grind. Resulting in a better game.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Khevar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Again, this is an MMO. This is not a shooter, like Overwatch. You are comparing apples to oranges. Progression and a sense of achievement mean everything in an MMORPG. Shooters have nothing to do with that as they are merely superficial fun geared towards hand-eye coordination, team work, and fast reflexes. That's an entirely separate discussion that is in no way relevant.

 

PVP is PVP no matter if it comes from an MMO or not. I personally believe you are being narrow minded in your view simply because "that's how MMOs have done it" as opposed to whether or not it would be beneficial to the game having no gear progression for PVP ( which has been hampered anyway forcing pure PVP players to find alternative means to "gear up" now to remain competitive with the players with more time up their sleeve or willingness to do other activities for command points but that's a whole other story ).

 

Don't like the shooter example what about Moba's that are very similar to SWToR PVP? LoL , DOTA2 ... what do you believe keeps these games so interesting and profitable?

 

I've offered how you can give carrots on a stick in other forms that aren't just stat gear ( which is moot now in terms of PVP as it is in operations but you don't get gear anymore, just a few points ) to keep it interesting. You've not countered that at all or even shown why stat based gear progression is beneficial vs not having it for PVP.

 

All you've said basically is "this is an MMO" - that's not a valid argument to make.

 

As I said to the other poster, I do not believe you truly understand and appreciate what progression and a sense of achievement mean in an MMORPG. They are absolutely essential, especially considering these games never end. Shooters, like Overwatch, are relevant for a few months to a year and then fade into obscurity until the sequel or next big thing releases.

 

In your opinion and being that BWA have literally removed gear progression away from the content that supported it then based on your own concept of MMORPG progression than BWA too don't believe in it anymore.

 

Shooters like that stay relevant for as long as the content stays fresh and fun, same goes for this game. As it becomes stale player numbers decrease and the worse you treat your consumer base the harder it is to bring players back ( as there are only ever so many new players you can attract over the years ).

 

We saw this all year with this game with declines in player numbers and so far 5.0 has by far the worst pickup in new player numbers of any expansion. Torstatus barely even registers a spike in the player number trends and it's still not even as large as what we saw with DvL ... can't even come close to what we saw with 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and probably all the minor updates in between.

 

A more appropriate comparison would be Destiny, which is actually an MMO. That game, obviously, does have gear progression and new armor sets are constantly releasing on a regular basis. They affect not only PvE but also PvP. This is coming from a developer, Bungie, who had only made shooters previously and never an MMO. Even the creators of Halo recognize the importance and significance of a sense of achievement and gear progression in an MMO.

 

But Destiny PVP stats are more or less negligible when it comes to PVP compared to this game? Are you saying then that PVP in this game should be more akin to how stats work in Destiny?

[Aowin]

There are other games that took this route. Vanilla Diablo 3. Vanilla Destiny. The Division. You'll notice that all three of these games had troubles until they revisited their gearing design and changed it to REDUCE the grind. Resulting in a better game.

 

You'll also notice that all three of those games originally lacked a substantial amount of content for the player to consume, thus justifying the time sink. BioWare didn't create Galactic Command in spite of you or anyone else. BioWare created it to slow down consumption of he game and to give themselves more time to develop content. This isn't a new concept to MMOs. It has always been there in some form or fashion. What SWTOR was doing horribly previously was making the period of gear progression non-existent because you could get the gear immediately in PvP and in a few operation runs for PvE.

 

That is a bad progression system because people end up burning through whatever content you have. It's the reason no content in this game has ever lasted for a long period of time and posters are always complaining about a lack of content. For once, BioWare is actually doing something that makes sense for an MMO. While slowing down the process may be a punishment to many as they were spoiled previously, it will be better for the longevity of the game.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Aowin

[Aowin]

PVP is PVP no matter if it comes from an MMO or not. I personally believe you are being narrow minded in your view simply because "that's how MMOs have done it" as opposed to whether or not it would be beneficial to the game having no gear progression for PVP ( which has been hampered anyway forcing pure PVP players to find alternative means to "gear up" now to remain competitive with the players with more time up their sleeve or willingness to do other activities for command points but that's a whole other story ).

 

Don't like the shooter example what about Moba's that are very similar to SWToR PVP? LoL , DOTA2 ... what do you believe keeps these games so interesting and profitable?

 

This is were I absolutely disagree with you. PvP is not just PvP regardless of the genre. PvP is entirely dependent on the genre and the setting. To believe that comparing a team death match in Call of Duty to a quick match in Civilization VI to a warzone in SWTOR is to not be able to discern how PvP differs between genres. I am not being "narrow-minded" about anything. PvP in MMOs has existed far longer than competitive multiplayer in most other games. I just know from personal experience playing MMOs of all sorts that certain implementations of PvP work far better than others. To have no gear progression system at all tends to be the systems that falter the most. I definitely understand now why you have see so little value in gear progression. How many MMOs have you played?

 

Again, if it's not already obvious, MOBAs are not MMORPGs. The operative portion of "MMORPG" you should be focusing on is the "RPG" aspect. Role-playing games always have progression. That is one of the pillars and foundation of any good RPG. Otherwise, we have a superficial e-sport that is competitive multiplayer with no substance, like a MOBA, a shooter, or a fighting game. MMORPGs have never fit into this kind of experiences when it comes to PvP. In fact, most PvP experiences originally were massively multiplayer (look at DAoC or SWG) being that they were open world PvP. ESO's Cyrodiil was largely inspired by DAoC and was a return to classic open world PvP in an MMO. Instanced PvP was created in more recent times to be more accessible, more casual, and to appeal to a wider audience.

 

I've offered how you can give carrots on a stick in other forms that aren't just stat gear ( which is moot now in terms of PVP as it is in operations but you don't get gear anymore, just a few points ) to keep it interesting. You've not countered that at all or even shown why stat based gear progression is beneficial vs not having it for PVP.

 

All you've said basically is "this is an MMO" - that's not a valid argument to make.

 

In your opinion and being that BWA have literally removed gear progression away from the content that supported it then based on your own concept of MMORPG progression than BWA too don't believe in it anymore.

 

How is gear now "moot" in SWTOR? It never has been moot as gear has always mattered. With expertise now gone, gear matters even more now. No, bolster does not help nearly as much as you think it does. I've already explained the benefit of having a goal and a sense of achievement in what you are doing. If you are unwilling to agree, that's just fine. I'm not here to convince you as what you are advocating for isn't going to happen anyway.

 

Saying this is an "MMO" is a very valid argument. Again, I'll ask you: how many MMOs have you played? This question actually does matter as it determines how much experience you have in this genre. I'm of the opinion your probably have not played a lot of MMOs, thus not understanding the value or significance of gear progression and what it does. That's perfectly fine, but again it just means you have an ill-informed opinion on the matter.

 

Again, gear still matters in this game. If it didn't, you wouldn't have half the forums complaining about Galactic Command. Gear doesn't just matter in operations. If anything, it matters more in PvP as that slight advantage in stats can mean the difference between life and death.

 

Shooters like that stay relevant for as long as the content stays fresh and fun, same goes for this game. As it becomes stale player numbers decrease and the worse you treat your consumer base the harder it is to bring players back ( as there are only ever so many new players you can attract over the years ).

 

We saw this all year with this game with declines in player numbers and so far 5.0 has by far the worst pickup in new player numbers of any expansion. Torstatus barely even registers a spike in the player number trends and it's still not even as large as what we saw with DvL ... can't even come close to what we saw with 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and probably all the minor updates in between.

 

But Destiny PVP stats are more or less negligible when it comes to PVP compared to this game? Are you saying then that PVP in this game should be more akin to how stats work in Destiny?

 

I'm really starting to believe you are relatively new to MMOs. Ultima Online, an MMO that started in the late 90s, is still running. Everquest 1 and Everquest 2 are still running. DAoC is still running. It's very rare for an MMO to be shut down. When someone says an MMO never ends, they are not lying. Shooters end. Outside of perhaps TF2 and Counterstrike (which are largely PC shooters), the shooting genre is constantly becoming stale and releasing sequels to remain current. See Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, and every major shooter on the planet.

 

Part of the reason MMORPGs last so long is because of that progression and sense of achievement, which other genres do not have. There's also far more depth and complexity when you bring gear, class specs, and group compositions into the equation. People stay with these games for years. You just don't see that same level of commitment in any other genre. What you are essentially proposing is to make warzones into a first person shooter or a MOBA, which really misses the entire point of what an MMO is all about.

 

I am more than happy to listen to what you have to say, but I believe you are absolutely wrong when it comes to understanding the point of MMOs and why PvP is different in MMOs.

[Khevar]

That is a bad progression system because people end up burning through whatever content you have. It's the reason no content in this game has ever lasted for a long period of time and posters are always complaining about a lack of content.

I disagree.

 

Let's go back the PvP gearing system. You don't "burn through content" by gearing up your character. This isn't a thing. In fact, a lengthy gearing system in PvP works against an ideal scene of PvP, which is BALANCED GAMEPLAY.

 

When a developer has done a halfway-decent job of class balance, and the players have more-or-less comparable gear, the PvP experience is GOOD.

 

If class balance is out of whack, or if there is a significant gear disparity, the PvP expeience is BAD.

 

Do you remember the old Recruit gear added in patch 1.3? The free stuff players got mailed when they reached level 50? And those players would show up in the level 50 PvP matches.

 

Oh boy. Sure, it was a little fun to wipe the floor with them -- the first few times. But it quickly got boring. A match against players in Recruit gear was NOT as fun as a match against a group of players in BiS PvP gear.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Khevar

[Aowin]

I disagree.

 

Let's go back the PvP gearing system. You don't "burn through content" by gearing up your character. This isn't a thing. In fact, a lengthy gearing system in PvP works against an ideal scene of PvP, which is BALANCED GAMEPLAY.

 

When a developer has done a halfway-decent job of class balance, and the players have more-or-less comparable gear, the PvP experience is GOOD.

 

If class balance is out of whack, or if there is a significant gear disparity, the PvP expeience is BAD.

 

Do you remember the old Recruit gear added in patch 1.3? The free stuff players got mailed when they reached level 50? And those players would show up in the level 50 PvP matches.

 

Oh boy. Sure, it was a little fun to wipe the floor with them -- the first few times. But it quickly got boring. A match against players in Recruit gear was NOT as fun as a match against a group of players in BiS PvP gear.

 

You are misusing the term "balance." It has little to do with gear and everything to do with individual classes, their skills, and how they perform. In case you haven't noticed, gear sets are intentionally different and diverse for every class. There is no "one size fits all" gear template for every class. Even with the simplifications BioWare has made to stats, to be optimal with specific builds requires min/maxing of particular attributes. A lot of the actual skill in PvP determines how you build your character, not just knowing a rotation.

 

In this comes into play theory crafting, which is a major aspect of endgame progression (PvE or PvP) in MMOs. Theory crafting and altering gear to better fit your play style or to be more useful in certain scenarios has nothing to do with gameplay balance. The reason the mercenary/commando advanced classes need a nerf is because their survivability has gone through the roof due to having too many heals, not because of their gear.

 

I'm not sure what your problem with recruit gear was. It made it impossible for a new player not to have PvP gear. It actually made the experience far more enjoyable because players were going into warzones with full expertise. It's far better than the experience we've had since when most players in warzones never have full expertise. That's not a gear issue, though. That's incompetency on the part of the player and BioWare doing a bad job of explaining where to acquire PvP gear. Removing expertise was a way to simplify gear progression, but it is still very much relevant.

 

Either way, we are getting off topic and this is the last I will speak on this issue. Galactic Command is crucial to all aspects of the game because gear progression matters. Whether you like it or not gear progression is in the very identity of MMOs and SWTOR is no different. When players start acquiring tier 2 and tier 3 gear there will likely be a difference, and there's noting wrong with that. It merely gives more motivation to catch up and to rival these other players.

[Khevar]

You are misusing the term "balance." It has little to do with gear and everything to do with individual classes, their skills, and how they perform.

False.

 

In a few months, when a number of PvPers are in 242 gear, and a new player shows up in a mix of 220/228, that new player is going to have a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. Because gear DOES have something to do with balance.

I'm not sure what your problem with recruit gear was. It made it impossible for a new player not to have PvP gear. It actually made the experience far more enjoyable because players were going into warzones with full expertise

The reason I brought up Recruit gear was to give an example of gear disparity and how that can make a PvP match less fun.

It's far better than the experience we've had since when most players in warzones never have full expertise.

Ah, but for the last 3 years (until 5.0), the PvP gearing up period was quick. And NOT just for vets that had stacks of comms. Even a newer player could quickly gear up to be on a par with everyone else. This was a good thing. Not a bad thing.

 

You keep making a point about how important it is to have a lengthy gear progression for this game. I'm saying that for PvP, it's the OPPOSITE. A quick gear progression is better, as it shifts the match to be more about skill.

Either way, we are getting off topic and this is the last I will speak on this issue.

You say that every time you run out of good counter arguments.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Khevar

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Is there a thread yet when people compare their drop rates so we could deduce based on larger sample what is it?

 

0/28 on gear upgrade so far.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Is there a thread yet when people compare their drop rates so we could deduce based on larger sample what is it?

 

in response to this i did actually make a thread. so please stop by and let us know where u are at gear upgrades & set bonus so far please :D:D it might give the devs at least some numbers to look at instead of just bickering =):eek:

Edited December 8, 2016 by Hichitsuki-hime

[Ahbal]

Lol at this thread

 

My little brother is a "new player" and prefers the old system. As with the old system, you knew when/where/how you will get the gear.

 

You do realise that new players will have to grind endless hours...to even have a chance of getting gear? Why would a new player do that? When I first hit 55 during the Oricon update, I had no endgame mmorpg experience, however, once I ran a few ops I realised how great the unassembled set pieces were, rather than RNG. Further....veteran players will know the best places to farm, instantly putting the newer/nonfarming players at a disadvantage. (In regard to command crates).

 

Again, lol.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Ahbal

[MeNaCe-NZ]

PvP in MMOs has existed far longer than competitive multiplayer in most other games

 

Lol wut?! Now I know you're just one of those guys who replies for the sake of replying without ever actually doing anything to sustain their position in an argument.

 

That's a ridiculous statement to make ... you are basically saying there wasn't player vs player combat in other games until MMOs came along and perhaps if you are in your mid-early 20s or younger you may actually believe that but it's simply not true. Next you'll be telling me WoW was the first MMO.

 

Lets see if we can keep you on track anyway. How does gearing in PVP benefit PVP in this game vs not having it? You keep bringing up "progression" when you've been shut down numerous times by myself and Khevar in alternatives to that system not to mention 5.0 itself moves away from "progression" so stop replying for the hell of it with nonsense like the above and actually try make a logical point to the topic at hand.

 

Again, if it's not already obvious, MOBAs are not MMORPGs. The operative portion of "MMORPG" you should be focusing on is the "RPG" aspect. Role-playing games always have progression. That is one of the pillars and foundation of any good RPG. Otherwise, we have a superficial e-sport that is competitive multiplayer with no substance, like a MOBA, a shooter, or a fighting game. MMORPGs have never fit into this kind of experiences when it comes to PvP. In fact, most PvP experiences originally were massively multiplayer (look at DAoC or SWG) being that they were open world PvP. ESO's Cyrodiil was largely inspired by DAoC and was a return to classic open world PvP in an MMO. Instanced PvP was created in more recent times to be more accessible, more casual, and to appeal to a wider audience.

 

In your opinion. It's nice to have an opinion but it's kinda silly to base an argument around it.

 

How is gear now "moot" in SWTOR?

 

I meant it's moot in the sense of progression gear drops being a carrot for PVP. You get GC and you can get it anywhere. It's actually more beneficial to do a variety of things you might not even enjoy doing just to ensure you get enough chances to get the gear you need to ensure you are on par with other players in competitive PVP.

 

What is moot is your argument on stat based PVP gear being a carrot to entice people into PVP.

 

Saying this is an "MMO" is a very valid argument.

 

Why is it a valid argument? You don't get to just say "it's a valid argument" as though it suddenly makes stat based PVP gear a good thing. That's just ridiculous, non-sensical logic. Support your view ... "it's an MMO" is not a valif argument no matter how much you wish it were.

 

I'll do you one better and say why it's not a valid argument also. The MMO market is known to be stagnant if not outright reducing in population. Thus innovation is required so your argument of "doing it how it's always done because it's an MMO" is not a reasoned argument as a means of encouraging people to stay or play. If it were we wouldn't see reducing player numbers across MMOs would we? The formula would work and statue quo would prevail but people are leaving for other games that aren't MMOs for many reasons whether you want to believe it or not.

 

Again, gear still matters in this game. If it didn't, you wouldn't have half the forums complaining about Galactic Command. Gear doesn't just matter in operations. If anything, it matters more in PvP as that slight advantage in stats can mean the difference between life and death.

 

It matters yes but it shouldn't matter for PVP which is this whole argument. Why is it so hard for you to keep a logical thread going? You are basically stating something which was the point of contention to begin with.

 

 

I'm really starting to believe you are relatively new to MMOs. Ultima Online, an MMO that started in the late 90s, is still running. Everquest 1 and Everquest 2 are still running. DAoC is still running. It's very rare for an MMO to be shut down. When someone says an MMO never ends, they are not lying. Shooters end. Outside of perhaps TF2 and Counterstrike (which are largely PC shooters), the shooting genre is constantly becoming stale and releasing sequels to remain current. See Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, and every major shooter on the planet.

 

Part of the reason MMORPGs last so long is because of that progression and sense of achievement, which other genres do not have. There's also far more depth and complexity when you bring gear, class specs, and group compositions into the equation. People stay with these games for years. You just don't see that same level of commitment in any other genre. What you are essentially proposing is to make warzones into a first person shooter or a MOBA, which really misses the entire point of what an MMO is all about.

 

I am more than happy to listen to what you have to say, but I believe you are absolutely wrong when it comes to understanding the point of MMOs and why PvP is different in MMOs.

 

Those games support the point I made though. No fresh content and numbers reduce to be at a point they are more or less considered niche. Some enter maintenance mode for life and if they don't get new content they are good as dead. Shooters etc. do get new games because it makes them money. Upgrades in technology and innovation, something most MMOs seriously lack. They sell too - and in far superior numbers to an MMO. 1 person in a year here might spend $180 for their sub fee - another player of those sorts of games might spend $500 a year easily on different games as they move from game to game. I know which market I would be targeting.

 

Anyway that is all so ridiculously off topic it's not funny. It has little to do with the point of stat gear in PVP.

 

Fact is this game is losing players. It's not improving it's going down. If that's the case ... how is keeping stat based PVP a good thing when every topic that's come up about it over the years on these forums has majority support for ditching stat gear and having it skill based ( with new carrots such as they have with ranked rewards )?

 

Simple question now try answer it without saying "this is an MMO" because that's not a valid argument. That's just saying this game should do it because that's what MMOs do which is ridiculous.

[DarthWoad]

Just because other MMO's do it and it works there, doesn't mean SWTOR should do it. The loot system before was fine. Cause obviously the majority of people are unhappy with the change and do not share your personal views. This RNG gearing system has dumbed down the game a lot more.

[Aowin]

Just because other MMO's do it and it works there, doesn't mean SWTOR should do it. The loot system before was fine. Cause obviously the majority of people are unhappy with the change and do not share your personal views. This RNG gearing system has dumbed down the game a lot more.

 

You are privy to information about how the "majority of people" feel? I didn't think so.

 

Again, what you consider "dumbed down" BioWare considers streamlining for accessibility and making newcomer-friendly. There are far more pros to this system for newcomers than there are cons. Under the previous system, most newcomers were simply unable to even have access to certain content or gear due to a lack of knowledge and no one to aid them. Galactic Command changes all of that and will give many newcomers an opportunity to do many things (progression raiding among them) for the first time.

[DarthWoad]

You are privy to information about how the "majority of people" feel? I didn't think so.

 

You're really pushing this aren't you? Have you even seen the forums lately? You do realise I'm talking about the forum response yeah? Would you like actual numbers or a source or whatever? Are you actually going to ask for that now?

 

Again, what you consider "dumbed down" BioWare considers streamlining for accessibility and making newcomer-friendly.

 

Biowares word isn't gospel, you know.

 

There are far more pros to this system for newcomers than there are cons.

 

Welcome to the game, where you will have to grind for hours and hours on one character to get your gear, unlike before when things were easier for players. Do you honestly think there are more pros for people than cons? My my.

 

Under the previous system, most newcomers were simply unable to even have access to certain content or gear due to a lack of knowledge and no one to aid them. Galactic Command changes all of that and will give many newcomers an opportunity to do many things (progression raiding among them) for the first time.

 

What you're talking about is the Galactic Command interface. Yes, I agree, that is easier for new comers because it's all on one interface.

 

New to the game and want to do ranked? Well click the button with no experience, jump right in! It'll be fun for everyone!

 

On a serious note, what does the galactic command interface have to do with RNG?

[DarthWoad]

BioWare has equalized the playing field and made a system that is fair to all. Whether you are a veteran of five years or you just started playing today, everybody has the same opportunity to achieve gear.

 

Here's where the problem is. The fact now it's an "equal playing field. "

 

Bioware has destroyed the fun for these veteran players, who do hard mode raids and nightmare raids. They too, like brand new players, can only get gear from random lockboxes now. That isn't fair. Why should everyone be equal?

 

If I wanted this piece of gear, I'd practise a lot and wipe a lot on a raid. My raiding team would then be rewarded through skill and coordination with a loot drop after finally progressing through that raid. That is fun. That is enjoyable.

 

Can you imagine if Bioware decied to add nightmare armour to a vendor in 4.0 for 1 credit each? There would be outrage. Well that's exactly what it's like now. EVERYONE can get the same piece of gear. Even if they lose every ranked warzone. Even if they go semi AFK in a raid. Even if they follow someone doing heroics. There's zero skill involved now.

 

This RNG isn't perfect. It's ruined the competitiveness and any competition. I'm sorry it's difficult for you to understand that. This is a game. Gamers like a challenge. Opening a box and hoping for the best isn't a challenge.

Edited December 8, 2016 by DarthWoad

[Voblat]

It is NOT an equal playing field.

 

That is the entire problem with having a RNG choice that ranges from 'nothing useful' to 'vital for end game content'

 

Two people can level Galactic Command 1 - 50, and end up with entirely different rewards. One could have a full set of 230's with bonus. One could have an inventory of companion gifts, greens with stats worse then they already had and some reputation tokens for maxed out factions. (I am currently at 20 command levels across a couple of toons, I have yet to receive anything I can use, and my toons are currently in a mix of 208 and 216 vendor purples)

 

When some content requires the gear, having RNG at that level is plain wrong.And very, very far from 'a level playing field'.

 

RNG is fine if it decides between something useful and something special, RNG is just plane daft if it decides between something and nothing in end game content.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Voblat