RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Quraswren]

It's funny that you say someone can't accept that they might be wrong, when the raiders on this thread refuse to see this from a non-raider perspective. Imagine for a second that someone isn't interested in doing raids beyond story mode. Really think about that. The game would offer them next to nothing endgame. I know this because that's when I personally would always cancel my sub. Once raiding (or even griding HM flashpoints) became the next step in progression, I lost interest. In this system I can play whatever I feel like is fun that day and still be working towards something. That's where the inclusiveness comes in--there is more than one path as opposed to only raiding.

 

GC has it's perks with allowing everyone to do all content for gear. Problem is the RNG of GC. That benefits no one in the short or long run. Thats where bw needs to change things.

 

It's extremely bad to only have a chance at gear. It's even worse to run 2-5 year old content for only a chance at gear.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that a brand new player should end up at level 70 well before they have maxed gear. As someone else already pointed out, someone who is freshly gearing a new character will be able to use the majority of the random gear that drops. Their experience will be different than yours (and other people sitting on old raid gear). And I really doubt their concern will be "catching up" with people who were raid-ready today.

 

Incorrect. Gamers always want better gear. It's a driving factor since the first day you press play. That doesn't stop just because you reach max level. It's a major part of gaming in mmos except for the rare few. Jeweledleah explains that really well and what is happening to every gamer in swtor.

 

we must have a different non raider perspective, because even without raiding, I find this system entirely abhorent. someone who is casually playing whatever they want - will end up barely getting rewarded for it. so eventually if they feel like they are struggling with content they want to keep playing... they either give up.. or are forced to grind whatever content is most efficient for xp gain.. and still barely get rewarded. few months down the road, maker help them if they want to pvp - they are not catching up with anyone else, they will continuously get squashed with casualy speaking? months of grind ahead of them - per character, before they could even start getting a CHANCE at upgrades that would put them on equalfooting with someone who'se been grinding since the start.

 

the only way this system is "inclusive" if you concider that everyone but the most dedicated grinders and maybe roleplayers/people who run through story once on story mode and are done - are screwed by it. altoholics? screwed. raiders? screwed. casual solo players who want to try anything above story mode and are of average skill so they NEED the gear to compensate? screwed. pvpers? screwed. new players? screwed. veterans? yep.

 

rng. is. awful. rng as THE ONLY means of upgrading your character's performance? even worse. rng gated behind a time wall? THE WORST.

 

as for giving them a break? no. people have been telling them for WEEKS about the pitfalls of the system. they didn't listen and made it go live anyways.

 

He's dead on.

 

That said, I'm not defending the fact that the current RNG is a bad way for current raiders to incrementally progress their gear. But I'd wager that this benefits far more players than it currently limits. I like this better. I'm more likely to sub longer under this system. Try to really think about who might be more representative of the player base--I really don't think it's HM/NiM raiders. Also the expansion JUST came out. If you don't feel like giving them time to adjust take a break until they do.

 

RNG is bad for everyone as was mentioned and why. There is no benefit to new players as they can never be sure to get anything. I'm 14 levels in with one piece of real gear. A week of play and one items that more mediocre

 

That type of RNG gearing doesn't benefit anyone but the lucky. This has nothing to do with HM or Nim raiders as they would beat the game before any casual anyway with or without gear. They have the skill to go to places under gearded and still win. It's what they do. They are not representative of the whole but still part of it.

 

What is however is players wanting useful loot. Not a chance at usefull loot or the garbage bw thinks is loot.

 

This system doesn't encourage that to happen. bw cannot be so stupid to have not seen the issues here. Gamers saw it weeks ago. There is no, wait and let it play out and adjust it because there is no adjustment to the casino that will ever be favorable to you enough to offset what is in place to screw you over. That would go against the use of RNG in the first place and something bw would never do because they cannot be seen as wrong in their eyes. Otherwise they might a well get rid of RNG. Also something they don't want to do because what else they got to string you along? Uprisings and story not worth repeating more than a couple times? Then it's old content again and again.

 

This is an RNG gearing problem. This is a GC massive grind problem. This is NOT a do any content for gear problem. This hurts all gamers in it's current state do to how bw has implemented it unless your lucky and well thats little fun or entertaining. So much I expect those one month subs that came to see the conclusion of the story to be done come January 2. No reason to hit that massive grind wall for just a chance at gear and so little new to actually do.

[Frenesi]

Honestly, if they tweak the xp requirements and the drop rates in crates, it would be highly beneficial to new players. I think the OP touched on that.

 

But they won't. That's the problem. It's working as intended, it's making money. It's system made frustrating on purpose, to sell boosters and extend playtime. If you think they will ever make it beneficial to players - think again. Or do you think they simply "made a mistake"? There are smart people working there. Then there are dumb people caring only for profits, giving orders to those smart guys. Rest assured every number in this system is calculated, analyzed and tweaked to be exactly this way. If you think I'm wearing too big tinfoil hat here - remember that it's AAA industry we are talking about.

 

Not to mention that tweaking RNG won't do ****. Any form of RNG is cancerous. What we need is alternative and reliable way to get gear. AKA - we need token system back, and this ****-out left to rot on the side. Maybe somebody will find it enjoyable once in a blue moon.

[Vember]

But they won't.

 

I am almost certain they will. And we'll see double cxp weekends and events as well, I'm sure.

[KristianBurke]

Right now I have the best gear that folks can craft without CXP crates--228 w/ augments. Not something that was particularly hard to do either. If 230+ is really the cutoff for HM Ops, then that's the only content I currently can't do. I don't have much interest in doing those either. But I can do all levels of flashpoints, uprisings, and the veteran story mode. If I decide to PvP, I really don't think I'll be severely undergeared with what I have. Now with GC, I can have a chance at getting better gear without having to do HM+ Ops. Of course that gear isn't needed, but nothing on this game is truly "needed". I play because it's fun, not because I feel some compulsion to grind whatever system gets me the best gear. Simply put running SM content pre-5.0 got me nothing and now I get something and for that I'll sub longer. You can say all you want that I don't need the gear, I really don't care. I feel more motivation to play than I did before, you're not going to somehow argue me otherwise.

 

I get it though--y'all want the gear ASAP and it is currently very hard to get. If you don't have the patience to wait for a solution--and really don't have fun playing anything that's not a HM+ Operation-- just don't play until they fix it. We'll see if having some HM+ raid players leaving has a larger impact to BW than more casuals staying. Like any business, BW will follow the money.

[Frenesi]

I am almost certain they will. And we'll see double cxp weekends and events as well, I'm sure.

 

Well, time will tell. At least I'm sure it's not something we'll see sooner than February.

[gabigool]

Right now I have the best gear that folks can craft without CXP crates--228 w/ augments. Not something that was particularly hard to do either. If 230+ is really the cutoff for HM Ops, then that's the only content I currently can't do. I don't have much interest in doing those either. But I can do all levels of flashpoints, uprisings, and the veteran story mode. If I decide to PvP, I really don't think I'll be severely undergeared with what I have. Now with GC, I can have a chance at getting better gear without having to do HM+ Ops. Of course that gear isn't needed, but nothing on this game is truly "needed". I play because it's fun, not because I feel some compulsion to grind whatever system gets me the best gear. Simply put running SM content pre-5.0 got me nothing and now I get something and for that I'll sub longer. You can say all you want that I don't need the gear, I really don't care. I feel more motivation to play than I did before, you're not going to somehow argue me otherwise.

 

I get it though--y'all want the gear ASAP and it is currently very hard to get. If you don't have the patience to wait for a solution--and really don't have fun playing anything that's not a HM+ Operation-- just don't play until they fix it. We'll see if having some HM+ raid players leaving has a larger impact to BW than more casuals staying. Like any business, BW will follow the money.

 

Why do you advocate for the current system, rather than one that allows both the exact same path you currently have as well as leaving in the pre 5.0 mechanisms?

 

Or is it just like, you're happy so it's cool?

[DawnAskham]

Interesting to note, the vast majority of 'casual' content is level synced or bolstered, making gear mostly irrelevant for the crowd that does nothing but heroics, story, and an occasional tactical flashpoint - does this group even realize they are simply grinding for the illusion of character progression?

 

Also interesting to note are people selling crafted 240 modifications already, if the goal was to slow down gearing - especially for those willing to do whatever to get the best gear, it seems to have failed.

 

And while I find this system to be rather poorly thought out given the game still has gear based PVP and gear balanced / tuned PVE content, some of the hyperbole on the anti-GC side is pretty hilarious (like those stating they can't do SM Ops without new gear or need full set bonus to do some HMs).

 

Anyways, I agree that the system is not conducive to a game which still offers an end-game with a number of activities based or tuned around gear progression when those same very activities, regardless of difficulty, no longer directly reward gear.

 

Now it is 'have lots of time and get lucky' rather than 'take higher risks and earn higher rewards', with an extra side of 'but you can also pay me to get more chances at gear faster' which seems pretty damn close to P2W.

Edited December 6, 2016 by DawnAskham

[KristianBurke]

Incorrect. Gamers always want better gear. It's a driving factor since the first day you press play. That doesn't stop just because you reach max level. It's a major part of gaming in mmos except for the rare few. Jeweledleah explains that really well and what is happening to every gamer in swtor.

 

You misunderstand me. I completely agree that players want better gear--that's exactly my point. If players want better gear and previously the only way to obtain that gear was a bottleneck of content that only a subset of players were interested in doing (HM+ Ops) then the rest of the playerbase loses interest. My point about "catching up" was in response to previous posts stating that casual players will never catch up to hardcore players because it will be even harder for them to overcome the RNG madness because they'll earn them slower. What I was trying to say was catching up to other players isn't important--being able to progress at all is.

 

And a thousand times YES the currently RNG is insanely slow--I'm not arguing that. This can't be the intended final state of the game for high-level raid gear progression. But my point has been that I think that will only truly affect a small portion of the player base. Perhaps smaller than people on this forum they realize...

[KristianBurke]

Interesting to note, the vast majority of 'casual' content is level synced or bolstered, making gear mostly irrelevant for the crowd that does nothing but heroics, story, and an occasional tactical flashpoint - does this group even realize they are simply grinding for the illusion of character progression?

 

Also interesting to note are people selling crafted 240 modifications already, if the goal was to slow down gearing - especially for those willing to do whatever to get the best gear, it seems to have failed.

 

And while I find this system to be rather poorly thought out given the game still has gear based PVP and gear balanced / tuned PVE content, some of the hyperbole on the anti-GC side is pretty hilarious (like those stating they can't do SM Ops without new gear or need full set bonus to do some HMs).

 

Anyways, I agree that the system is not conducive to a game which still offers an end-game with a number of activities based or tuned around gear progression when those same very activities, regardless of difficulty, no longer directly reward gear.

 

Now it is 'have lots of time and get lucky' rather than 'take higher risks and earn higher rewards', with an extra side of 'but you can also pay me to get more chances at gear faster' which seems pretty damn close to P2W.

 

I had suspected this would be the case. Given that schematics were some of the "rare" rewards in the crates I thought one potential path to progression could be folks crafting better gear rather than directly getting it in drops. With schematics you only need a few people on the server to find them before the rest of the server starts to benefit.

[Alloou]

You misunderstand me. I completely agree that players want better gear--that's exactly my point. If players want better gear and previously the only way to obtain that gear was a bottleneck of content that only a subset of players were interested in doing (HM+ Ops) then the rest of the playerbase loses interest. My point about "catching up" was in response to previous posts stating that casual players will never catch up to hardcore players because it will be even harder for them to overcome the RNG madness because they'll earn them slower. What I was trying to say was catching up to other players isn't important--being able to progress at all is.

 

And a thousand times YES the currently RNG is insanely slow--I'm not arguing that. This can't be the intended final state of the game for high-level raid gear progression. But my point has been that I think that will only truly affect a small portion of the player base. Perhaps smaller than people on this forum they realize...

 

So lets give everyone a full set of BiS gear as soon as they hit 70. Including newcomers.

How long do you think they will stay?

 

But my point has been that I think that will only truly affect a small portion of the player base. Perhaps smaller than people on this forum they realize...

 

Or much more than the people in these forums realize... See what i did there?

Edited December 6, 2016 by Alloou

[RiVaN_]

Interesting to note, the vast majority of 'casual' content is level synced or bolstered, making gear mostly irrelevant for the crowd that does nothing but heroics, story, and an occasional tactical flashpoint - does this group even realize they are simply grinding for the illusion of character progression?

 

Also interesting to note are people selling crafted 240 modifications already, if the goal was to slow down gearing - especially for those willing to do whatever to get the best gear, it seems to have failed.

 

And while I find this system to be rather poorly thought out given the game still has gear based PVP and gear balanced / tuned PVE content, some of the hyperbole on the anti-GC side is pretty hilarious (like those stating they can't do SM Ops without new gear or need full set bonus to do some HMs).

 

Anyways, I agree that the system is not conducive to a game which still offers an end-game with a number of activities based or tuned around gear progression when those same very activities, regardless of difficulty, no longer directly reward gear.

 

Now it is 'have lots of time and get lucky' rather than 'take higher risks and earn higher rewards', with an extra side of 'but you can also pay me to get more chances at gear faster' which seems pretty damn close to P2W.

 

Right on the money.

[Jeweledleah]

Well, nothing wrong with that. Problem is, they are just as unable to get it as before.

 

actualy its worse now. you may not have had easy (relatively speaking - highlighted hardmodes were a great way, when it was easy ones, and as far as I saw, groups were hopping for those - and at a bare minimum, you would walk away with enough crystals to buy one or 2 pieces of gear) way of getting set bonus - getting vendor gear could be easily done solo through crystals. just about every activity awarded crystals, and not just green ones either.

 

now? you have to grind, grind, grind for quite some time, before you get to the point where you can start getting 216 equivalent of crates. even worse if you want 220 equivalent. in 4.0 as a casual - it was EASIER and FASTER to get gear upgrades in 4.0 than it is now.

 

the minority of people are the ones NOT affected by the system. just about everyone else? gets to suffer under it.

 

(P.S. to that offer of marriage - I'm flattered, but not into polygamy so as someone already married, would have to decline )

Edited December 6, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[Jadescythe]

I am almost certain they will. And we'll see double cxp weekends and events as well, I'm sure.

 

Why would they give this away regularly when they can just sell it to you for 200/800 CC? They want the grind to be horrible to encourage CM sales of boosts.

[DawnAskham]

I had suspected this would be the case. Given that schematics were some of the "rare" rewards in the crates I thought one potential path to progression could be folks crafting better gear rather than directly getting it in drops. With schematics you only need a few people on the server to find them before the rest of the server starts to benefit.

 

Schematics also drop from Operations - and I assume the 240+ stuff comes from NiM, which just about anyone can kill Nefra and some raid groups have already cleared a number of NiM Operations.

 

Also several class reflects do not have caps, so players are cheesing fights by reflecting big boss damage.

[curulz]

I am almost certain they will. And we'll see double cxp weekends and events as well, I'm sure.

 

you can season up a turd to make it easier to swallow, but it's still a turd

[KristianBurke]

So lets give everyone a full set of BiS gear as soon as they hit 70. Including newcomers.

How long do you think they will stay?

?

 

When did I say anything about giving people gear? My whole point has been that not being able to progress makes being stop playing. Could this 5.0 currently be needlessly slow? Probably. But it's more progression than I had before, and I really doubt one week into the new patch we've really seen how everything will play out.

[RiVaN_]

You misunderstand me. I completely agree that players want better gear--that's exactly my point. If players want better gear and previously the only way to obtain that gear was a bottleneck of content that only a subset of players were interested in doing (HM+ Ops) then the rest of the playerbase loses interest. My point about "catching up" was in response to previous posts stating that casual players will never catch up to hardcore players because it will be even harder for them to overcome the RNG madness because they'll earn them slower. What I was trying to say was catching up to other players isn't important--being able to progress at all is.

 

I have to disagree with this, but only on a personal point. I don't want the gear to change, I would have been happy if 224 had stayed the top gear level and if the progression system had actually been a character progression system that allowed a player to allocate skill points into buffs and passive attributes that helped to improve on actual player skill. Have character progression trees that allow a player to align their character to their role as a PvE tank or a PvP Healer, a PvP DPS or a NiM Progression healer.

 

A Progression system should not be about gear, and gear should simply be something that adds a slight augment to your stats. Player skill should be the focus and gear should be, mostly, an afterthought.

 

That is my personal opinion, however SWTOR is a gear focused game and without the "proper" gear you can't accomplish anything. Honestly when a progression team has to regress into SM ops because the Vet Mode Ops are tuned to players wearing 230 purples player skill no longer matters because of the gear requirement.

[Alloou]

you can season up a turd to make it easier to swallow, but it's still a turd

 

:) :)

Edited December 6, 2016 by Alloou

[Vember]

Why would they give this away regularly when they can just sell it to you for 200/800 CC? They want the grind to be horrible to encourage CM sales of boosts.

 

They've been selling xp boosts for years, this is nothing new.

[Vember]

you can season up a turd to make it easier to swallow, but it's still a turd

 

This isn't Wildstar.

[Alloou]

When did I say anything about giving people gear? My whole point has been that not being able to progress makes being stop playing. Could this 5.0 currently be needlessly slow? Probably. But it's more progression than I had before, and I really doubt one week into the new patch we've really seen how everything will play out.

 

So i will say again what i said in another thread. Keep the gear in the raids, keep the pvp commendations and keep GC also.

Let the people choose how and from where to gear up. How many do you think will go for the 300 hour grind?

[Anzel]

RNG for end game gearing is LAZY and CHEAP. I would rather see this kind of gear as a reward for actually doing something challenging. Something difficult. Killing one billion skytroopers for ZERO points and then 1 million golds for 1 POINT each is in no way shape or form a challenge. It's an enormous TIME SUCK.

 

My favorite piece of gear in the entire game is the DREADSEED CHEST PIECE. A piece of gear that was rewarded at the end of a quest line and killer HEROIC+4 mission.

[Jadescythe]

They've been selling xp boosts for years, this is nothing new.

 

This is a pretty big difference. They gave XP boosts away for free to subscribers while leveling. I'm pretty sure every character I've leveled since they were available has had an XP boost on 100% of the time and I've never bought one. We've also only had 5 levels to get each expansion and it took about 5 hours to do each time.

 

Now we're looking at a system designed to take months to get through that they are conveniently selling boosts for. Add in the fact that it is the only way to obtain gear in the game at max level and your game is pay to win. Sad state for SWTOR after 5 years. Might as well just start selling 240s on the Cartel Market since you're going to get them eventually anyway, right?

[KristianBurke]

So i will say again what i said in another thread. Keep the gear in the raids, keep the pvp commendations and keep GC also.

Let the people choose how and from where to gear up. How many do you think will go for the 300 hour grind?

 

I don't plan on grinding. I've only opened like three crates. One had a schematic for a purple 230 earpiece. Sent that to my alt that does cybertech and now if I wanted to all of my characters can have a 230 earpiece. I was probably lucky with that drop but, other people server-wide being lucky finding other schematics will craft those items. If I personally wanted to progress I'd craft whatever I could on my main/alts and buy the rest. It's not instant-gratification but it's progression. Surely less than your 300-hour hyperbole too.

[Alloou]

I don't plan on grinding. I've only opened like three crates. One had a schematic for a purple 230 earpiece. Sent that to my alt that does cybertech and now if I wanted to all of my characters can have a 230 earpiece. I was probably lucky with that drop but, other people server-wide being lucky finding other schematics will craft those items. If I personally wanted to progress I'd craft whatever I could on my main/alts and buy the rest. It's not instant-gratification but it's progression. Surely less than your 300-hour hyperbole too.

 

It was mentioned in the live stream that the grind would average to around 1 crate per hour. Eric's words not mine.