Merc super cancer 5.0!!!!!!

[midianlord]

You called it egregious, but never explained why "this particular example" is bad. So tell us why, point by point he's wrong?

 

If I'm understanding the tooltip correctly, then the reflect only goes off direct single-target damage.

 

Non-primary-centered AEs and DoTs don't count, apparently.

 

Punt and/or stun him through the shield. Yeah so no hit, but that means also no heal, and cooldown blown (he also can't hit you if he's stunned or flying through the air like a ragdoll...Yeah, it means you actually have to think about how to outlast him now, just like with a Jugger.

 

That's his real problem, I think:

 

He's pissed off that he can't just roll his face down his keyboard without thinking or pausing, and then rinse ---> repeat whilst his own hilariously strong DCDs are no longer just his own to take up his slack vis-a-vis almost all other classes' being much weaker prior to now.

[Severith]

If I'm understanding the tooltip correctly, then the reflect only goes off direct single-target damage.

 

Non-primary-centered AEs and DoTs don't count, apparently.

 

Punt and/or stun him through the shield. Yeah so no hit, but that means also no heal, and cooldown blown (he also can't hit you if he's stunned or flying through the air like a ragdoll...Yeah, it means you actually have to think about how to outlast him now, just like with a Jugger.

 

That's his real problem, I think:

 

He's pissed off that he can't just roll his face down his keyboard without thinking or pausing, and then rinse ---> repeat whilst his own hilariously strong DCDs are no longer just his own to take up his slack vis-a-vis almost all other classes' being much weaker prior to now.

 

This shows how much you don't know about it, and how you didn't read the previous posts about this. Punting him deals direct damage. Force choking him deals direct damage. Soft stunning doesn't work with vengeance jugs, anni or carna maras due to inherent dots in their main abilities. In order to generate resourses as a jugg you need to deal direct damage. You can't spam aoe as a Jugg due to resources, and even if you could, the spammable aoe for jugs is a joke in terms of damage.

 

So that's 12 seconds of energy shield where a jugg realistically can't respond. The reflect (not to be confused with the energy shield) gives another 6 seconds to which a jugg can't respond. If the utility for kolto is taken, that's another 10 seconds where damage that takes the merc under 70% is going to be healed faster than it's applied, or close to it.

 

That's 28 seconds of a jugg not accomplishing anything against a merc.

 

A strong dcd that heals is different for a melee and a ranged. You can kite a melee. You can't kite ranged. A merc who stops attacking a jugg who uses enraged defense generates resources. A jugg who stops attacking a merc during energy shield or responsive safeguards (the reflect) generates nothing. A merc has strong, spammable aoe that circumvents reflect mechanics. A jugg's spammable aoe costs more rage than it's worth to use, especially given that they can't generate rage (for all practical purposes) during a mercs shield or reflect.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Severith

[Jherad]

You can kite a melee. You can't kite ranged.

 

You can LOS ranged. You can't LOS melee.

 

Resource generation can be problematic I grant you, particularly for the jugg - and we've already discussed how Vig/Veng has it's own unique problems, which aren't specific to mercs, but rather any healing class.

 

I've come across more people now who are learning to deal with the shield and reflect. Maras and sins particularly, but also a Jugg or two now. Just not veng, because veng has (more) problems 1v1ing heals.

 

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not totally convinced that guardian/jugg defences are working correctly right now.

[midianlord]

You can LOS ranged. You can't LOS melee.

 

Resource generation can be problematic I grant you, particularly for the jugg - and we've already discussed how Vig/Veng has it's own unique problems, which aren't specific to mercs, but rather any healing class.

 

I've come across more people now who are learning to deal with the shield and reflect. Maras and sins particularly, but also a Jugg or two now. Just not veng, because veng has (more) problems 1v1ing heals.

 

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not totally convinced that guardian/jugg defences are working correctly right now.

 

So how do Juggs deal, then? If, as that other guys say, Merc DCDs lock Juggs out of attacking?

 

Hey, I freely admitted I don't Jugg much (just not fan of melée, and never will be)...I even forgot about the damage on the punt, lol.

 

Not the first time I've heard that Jugg DCDs may be bugged/glitched/whatever, though, either.

[Severith]

You can LOS ranged. You can't LOS melee.

 

Resource generation can be problematic I grant you, particularly for the jugg - and we've already discussed how Vig/Veng has it's own unique problems, which aren't specific to mercs, but rather any healing class.

 

I've come across more people now who are learning to deal with the shield and reflect. Maras and sins particularly, but also a Jugg or two now. Just not veng, because veng has (more) problems 1v1ing heals.

 

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not totally convinced that guardian/jugg defences are working correctly right now.

 

Using LOS mechanics to justify class balance isn't equitable. Breaking LOS is situational, every time. Environments that allow easy breaking of LOS favor ranged tactics, and also favor healing/off healing far more than they favor straight melee dps. I'm doing your side of the argument a favor by trying to exclude LOS arguments, but you insist. You can't lean out, "fire" a melee attack, and lean back in if they're more than 4m away, but you can certainly do so with ranged attacks.

 

If a jugg does find cover, a merc can easy put either a death from above or sweeping blasters behind the los blockage, forcing the jugg to move. From zero heat, a merc can spam sweeping blasters seven times before it negatively effects heat management. It almost pays for itself during the channel.

 

The merc can also heal himself while the jugg breaks los.

 

When the situation is reversed, when the jugg has used enraged defense and it's the mercs turn to break los, the jugg doesn't have any of those options. Jugg aoe is tied to the juggs location, it's not placeable 30m away. The jugg can't just give up and cast a heal, because they don't have that ability. They can't just stand there and regain resources, because they require line of sight to even gain resources.

 

Are you starting to get why line of sight favors mercs far more than it favors juggs yet? Can we move on or no?

[Jherad]

Using LOS mechanics to justify class balance isn't equitable. Breaking LOS is situational, every time. Environments that allow easy breaking of LOS favor ranged tactics, and also favor healing/off healing far more than they favor straight melee dps. I'm doing your side of the argument a favor by trying to exclude LOS arguments, but you insist. You can't lean out, "fire" a melee attack, and lean back in if they're more than 4m away, but you can certainly do so with ranged attacks.

 

Lol. Really? Ok, let's try this then. Kiting is just as subject to the whims of the environment. Corridors? Pillars? That little bump in the ground that your character gets stuck on just as the jugg comes bearing down on you? All screws kiting just as much as it screws LOS. Doing me a favor? Heh. Lean out? Sure you can't at greater than 4m - but try 'leaning out' to hardcast a tracer with a jugg pillar dancing you. But it's okay - his channels self root him too. Oh wait. Dance around that pillar, and that jugg will hit you with every ability in his rotation.

 

Now you're not even bothering to argue about the new mechanics - you're just making an appeal to the 'ranged merc dps is better than melee' argument, which is patently nonsense, as ranked season after ranked season has demonstrated.

 

If a jugg does find cover, a merc can easy put either a death from above or sweeping blasters behind the los blockage, forcing the jugg to move. From zero heat, a merc can spam sweeping blasters seven times before it negatively effects heat management. It almost pays for itself during the channel.

 

The merc can also heal himself while the jugg breaks los.

 

When the situation is reversed, when the jugg has used enraged defense and it's the mercs turn to break los, the jugg doesn't have any of those options. Jugg aoe is tied to the juggs location, it's not placeable 30m away. The jugg can't just give up and cast a heal, because they don't have that ability. They can't just stand there and regain resources, because they require line of sight to even gain resources.

 

Are you starting to get why line of sight favors mercs far more than it favors juggs yet? Can we move on or no?

 

Now you're trying to have your cake and eat it. The point isn't to LOS for the entire fight. It's to LOS during critical moments. Like every good melee player does, right now. If you're arguing that LOS favours the merc (just... lol), then I suggest you go watch some tourny vids. Because... seriously. If I want to kill a jugg, I'll take a wide open field every. single. time.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Jherad

[Transcendent]

Face tanking is literally what dps mercs are doing right now, thanks to the energy shield utilities. I guess applying the same standards of criticism to both sides of a discussion is an issue for you.

 

Funny, I'm still kiting away happily as Merc. Guess it didn't occur to me to face tank, I wander what happens when all my DCDs are on cooldown..... probably be worse than your class I would imagine

 

I guess applying the same level of logic is an issue for you.

[Severith]

Lol. Really? Ok, let's try this then. Kiting is just as subject to the whims of the environment. Corridors? Pillars? That little bump in the ground that your character gets stuck on just as the jugg comes bearing down on you? All screws kiting just as much as it screws LOS. Doing me a favor? Heh. Lean out? Sure you can't at greater than 4m - but try 'leaning out' to hardcast a tracer with a jugg pillar dancing you. But it's okay - his channels self root him too. Oh wait.

 

Now you're not even bothering to argue about the new mechanics - you're just making an appeal to the 'ranged merc dps is better than melee' argument, which is patently nonsense, as ranked season after ranked season has demonstrated.

 

 

 

Now you're trying to have your cake and eat it. The point isn't to LOS for the entire fight. It's to LOS during critical moments. Like every good melee player does, right now. If you're arguing that LOS favours the merc (just... lol), then I suggest you go watch some tourny vids. Because... seriously. If I want to kill a jugg, I'll take a wide open field every. single. time.

 

I was purposely avoiding any LOS discussion in these threads, until you insisted on bringing it up. LOS requires objects, which may or may not be there. Kiting requires distance, which is always going to be there.

 

No one was talking about LOSing a whole fight. We're talking about LOS during a enraged defense/energy shield, which was part of your defense for how juggs and mercs were balanced. In both circumstances, the merc gets more out of breaking line of sight than the jugg. In both circumstances, the merc has more options than the jugg. It's extremely obvious. A jugg can't do anything productive while LOS is broken, other than wait for energy shield to go down. A merc can heal himself, dps the jugg with aoe by targeting the ground behind the blockage, or even just sit there while his resources build back up.

[Severith]

Funny, I'm still kiting away happily as Merc. Guess it didn't occur to me to face tank, I wander what happens when all my DCDs are on cooldown..... probably be worse than your class I would imagine

 

I guess applying the same level of logic is an issue for you.

 

You should probably keep kiting. Those skills will come in handy when the nerfs hit.

[Jherad]

I was purposely avoiding any LOS discussion in these threads, until you insisted on bringing it up. LOS requires objects, which may or may not be there. Kiting requires distance, which is always going to be there.

 

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Objects which provide LOS impede kiting. Other enemies impede kiting. Terrain impedes kiting. Etc, etc.

 

No one was talking about LOSing a whole fight. We're talking about LOS during a enraged defense/energy shield, which was part of your defense for how juggs and mercs were balanced. In both circumstances, the merc gets more out of breaking line of sight than the jugg. In both circumstances, the merc has more options than the jugg. It's extremely obvious. A jugg can't do anything productive while LOS is broken, other than wait for energy shield to go down. A merc can heal himself, dps the jugg with aoe by targeting the ground behind the blockage, or even just sit there while his resources build back up.

 

Again, repeating something doesn't make it true. LOS *always* benefits the melee, as once he reaches the object he has absolutely no channels to rely on that can be broken by movement or LOS. You seem to think every time LOS is reached, the Merc gets 10 seconds of downtime to do what he wants. If what you said was true, ranged DPS would favor pillars vs melee rather than engaging over open ground. I'll take a pillar vs a sniper for sure - but not against a jugg. I'd eat his entire rotation whilst only casting instants back once we started doing the pillar-dance.

 

At this point, I suggest you actually try the class against some decent melee yourself. I'm not saying we're in a bad place against them now, we're clearly not. But it would prove some of your assertions false.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Jherad

[FourPawnBenoni]

You can LOS ranged. You can't LOS melee.

 

 

LOL...i guess you can't if you're a bad ranged

[Transcendent]

You should probably keep kiting. Those skills will come in handy when the nerfs hit.

 

And then you can bow even further down to your Operative overlords. #nerfoperatives

[Jherad]

We all know it's going to be sins lol. They're keeping rather quiet.for the most part.

[Tsetso]

We all know it's going to be sins lol. They're keeping rather quiet.for the most part.

 

AFAIK they can't do anything about the stance bug really.

[QuiveringPotato]

Good lord, so many ******* mercs that think playing with their new OP toys makes them good players.

[Azidahka]

So having one class overpowered is good, because it counters another overpowered class. That would be great, if pvp only involved two classes. It has 8 though, so your argument is completely illogical. It's "cancer" to the health of pvp in swtor.

 

The "health" of pvp in swtor? I think that ship has sailed. OP sorcs and acid troll victories for 2 years, 4.0 skank and shank tanks breaking the intended meta, yolos that pit a trinity composition against a non-trinity, a midbie bolster that was broken for most of 3.0 (just to name a few). Health and balance of pvp does not seem to be a developer priority....or it is at least not something that they can actually accomplish. Bioware's track record with swtor has taught me to not expect from them regular, timely, or even effective balance changes. So, operating under the assumption that Bioware will again fail to address pvp concerns for most if not all of 5.0, I would rather have mercs as they are now than as they were in 4.0.

[Jherad]

Good lord, so many ******* mercs that think playing with their new OP toys makes them good players.

 

Are we really doing this Arvengis?

[Transcendent]

The "health" of pvp in swtor? I think that ship has sailed.

 

I know right? It's not like we've gone whole seasons with balanced classes it it? Anyway, I like how the Mara / Sents are also staying quiet recently......

[QuiveringPotato]

Are we really doing this Arvengis?

 

Yes. I haven't seen any legitimate points brought up in the defense of the new utilities for merc, and I've seen first-hand how some very bad mercs that went from being essentially a free kill in 4.0 (even when arsenal was borderline OP then, damage-wise) to a considerable challenge in 5.0.

 

That's not what proper balance is supposed to do.

Edited December 11, 2016 by QuiveringPotato

[Jherad]

Yes. I haven't seen any legitimate points brought up in the defense of the new utilities for merc, and I've seen first-hand how some very bad mercs that went from being essentially a free kill in 4.0 (even when arsenal was borderline OP then, damage-wise) to a considerable challenge in 5.0.

 

That's not what proper balance is supposed to do.

 

I'm not referring to your dislike of the new utilities, I'm referring to your repeated claims that 'no good mercs' are supporting the changes. We both know that's bollocks. You think the changes are bad, I think at *worst* it's too soon to tell.

 

If you want to keep throwing around passive aggressive BS at me, or any of the other mercs/mandos, we can have that out. Because I've played with and against you. I've played merc/mando since launch, through it's weakest and strongest times. I'm no FOTM ******* reroll. As well you know.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Jherad

[QuiveringPotato]

I'm not referring to your dislike of the new utilities, I'm referring to your repeated claims that 'no good mercs' are supporting the changes. We both know that's bollocks. You think the changes are bad, I think at *worst* it's too soon to tell.

 

If you want to keep throwing around passive aggressive BS at me, or any of the other mercs/mandos, we can have that out. Because I've played with and against you. I've played merc/mando since launch, through it's weakest and strongest times. I'm no FOTM ******* reroll. As well you know.

 

You're the only one that I know who's decent, who seems to be for it. You did fine before, and I know you're not a reroller, but that doesn't change the fact that the buffs in 5.0 are broken.

[Jherad]

As I mentioned, I'm neither for it nor against it right now. It's waaaay too soon to evaluate, given how little *some* people seem to be trying to actually work around it.

 

What I am definitely against is a kneejerk nerf that'll probably send mercs back into the dark ages.

[QuiveringPotato]

As I mentioned, I'm neither for it nor against it right now. It's waaaay too soon to evaluate, given how little *some* people seem to be trying to actually work around it.

 

What I am definitely against is a kneejerk nerf that'll probably send mercs back into the dark ages.

 

As am I, literally if they just removed the healing from energy shield thing (I think a better option would be something that increases the damage reduction of it every time you get attacked, up to 15% extra. +40% DR is fair and a useful DCD, yeah?) toned down the KO buff utility to 50-60% HP, and removed the healing from reflect, they'd be perfectly fine.

 

Mercs needed a small defensive buff, mostly just an anti-focus button (reflect). Not 3 lives.

Edited December 12, 2016 by QuiveringPotato

[Jherad]

Mercs needed a small defensive buff, mostly just an anti-focus button (reflect). Not 3 lives.

 

In 4.0, absolutely.

 

In 5.0, things have changed. Maras for example are much stronger respectively, as are sins etc. I'm not sure that just the reflect is enough now. Though again, too soon to tell.

[QuiveringPotato]

In 4.0, absolutely.

 

In 5.0, things have changed. Maras for example are much stronger respectively, as are sins etc. I'm not sure that just the reflect is enough now. Though again, too soon to tell.

 

Maras are roughly the same, it's only Carnage that's received a considerable buff when it comes to doing dmg (and only in burst, their overall dmg is similar I think?). Although, the obfuscate utility is pretty handy.

 

The reflect and the DR thing I mentioned would be plenty of a buff for mercs, though. Arsenal was already borderline OP in 4.0 and a good one could kite eternally.

Edited December 12, 2016 by QuiveringPotato