Non META Mondays

[Maulkat]

I'm not going to take full responsibility for this suggestion, but will make the post open to the general GSF population here. It has been being suggested to make a small change in the form of a one day week (Monday) for all to fly non META ships. I suggest that day because many people that fly GSF do it for conquest and skip flying on Monday. Only the people that "love" this facet of the game continue to fly on a non conquest day.

 

Not everybody fully agrees on what is considered "non META" or if two ships should even be included. The T1 (starter) scout and T2 GS. I feel these should be counted as there are pilots that only prefer to fly GS and the scout can deal with those people that won't fly non META. The other ships everybody agrees on are any SF, the T3 bomber and T3 scout.

 

Ships that are considered META are the T1 GS and bomber, the T2 scout and bomber, and the T3 GS.

 

The hope is the get people into flying and trying the ships that don't get used as often and mess around in them. We also hope this won't be just on the Harbinger server, but on all servers that still have GSF pop regularly.

 

Nobody can force or make another person fly a ship they don't want to, but make people aware this is going on and fly non META yourself. This is NOT an event that's going to be like the others we have had in the past. No prizes will be handed out. Just change out your ships bar, queue up and have fun!

 

Start time, I think should be after your respective server reset and go all day/night until the next reset. A full 24 hours of flying non META.

[Krixarcs]

The KING defines the META. this is fine with me TBH.

[TheMendac]

I'd be down for it if there was good matches still on the other days and stuff but I (personally) would not participate if Monday night became the only night for GSF ;(

[DakhathKilrathi]

This is a neat idea, I guess, but set a cutoff time so those of us who don't want to participate don't get a ton of crap for getting our daily done.

 

And I really would like to get the daily done once in a while, even though I don't plan to participate. All day is really far too long. When Strike Night was still a thing you just weren't able to play on TEH that night without catching a ton of aggression over it, no matter when you played.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7587789&postcount=101

[mudmobile]

This is a neat idea, I guess, but set a cutoff time so those of us who don't want to participate don't get a ton of crap for getting our daily done.

 

And I really would like to get the daily done once in a while, even though I don't plan to participate. All day is really far too long. When Strike Night was still a thing you just weren't able to play on TEH that night without catching a ton of aggression over it, no matter when you played.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7587789&postcount=101

That is one of the problems with player made events like this, there's no separate instances so its all on the general maps. Not everyone wants to or can participate in the events but still want/need to fly.

 

These events are good for the community but can have issues.

[RickDagles]

Sriia I hardly think using a non meta ship to get your daily 1 out of 7 days a week qualifies as a hardship. You're telling me you can't fly a Comet Breaker for 1 or 2 games once in awhile?

 

I think T1 scout needs to be banned.

[Maulkat]

After chatting with several people and listening to their views, most people feel the T1 scout is considered meta and should be taken out as a possible ship. Right now as it stands, the T1 scout will be removed, but the T2 GS remain. Depending on the success or not of this weekly event, this may change.

 

Since each server has a "prime time", a cut off might be when the time comes to the point where only one match is going on at a time. Obviously, a non meta "rule" can't enforced and people will fly what they want to.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Maulkat

[Lendul]

Sriia I hardly think using a non meta ship to get your daily 1 out of 7 days a week qualifies as a hardship. You're telling me you can't fly a Comet Breaker for 1 or 2 games once in awhile?

 

I think T1 scout needs to be banned.

 

special snowflakes are special...how can you not understand this?

[DakhathKilrathi]

Sriia I hardly think using a non meta ship to get your daily 1 out of 7 days a week qualifies as a hardship. You're telling me you can't fly a Comet Breaker for 1 or 2 games once in awhile?

 

I think T1 scout needs to be banned.

 

It's not a hardship. However, since I don't want to participate, I don't think it's too much to ask to ask for a clearly defined cutoff. If I wanna play weird builds and off ships, I do that on TEH where I have the requisition to do it. Sometimes I'll keep a dumb speed scout build on my bar for when I'm bored on Harbinger, but let's be honest, that doesn't happen much.

 

Also even if I wanted to play it, that wouldn't be okay 'cause t1 scout.

[DakhathKilrathi]

special snowflakes are special...how can you not understand this?

 

Hi! Did you answer my post in the other thread? Here's a link, in case you're having trouble!

[TheMendac]

there is absolutely no reason anyone should have a problem with this event, but they do have the right to not participate in it and i think that was made very clear by maulkat several times....

 

as far as this T1 scout situation that sprang up after a ton of people had already agreed to NMM is concerned, i have to invoke my power to veto that act, a power given me by the swtor constitution as well as the endorsement of the Great King Krixarcs

 

T1 scout seems like something that should be asked of a consensus of pilots, of all levels, and then use that to make a real decision about whether or not it has the same capability as a flashfire/sting

[Greezt]

Get this in your minds folks. The T1 is meta. Lasers are a slightly (~100 DPS give or take) weaker alternative to pods, and no reactor is not such a big deal for scouts. Especially considering that mines and ions will be a rare commodity in such an event. Do you really think lack of retros is what makes the most mobile ship with two breaks non-meta suddenly? Think again.

 

What does 'veto' have to do with anything? You have the right to veto the whole event, sync queues as an 8-man Quarrel premade and make everyone's life hell. You could also selfdestruct as much as you can in order to make your own team lose. The event is by nature a voluntary one, you can't be forced into it...

 

Limiting the event is a reasonable request, both as a means of allowing players uninclined to participate to have their time without actively sabotaging the event, and also as a way to concentrate willing players into a smaller timeslot. It's benificial to all groups involved, in short.

[TheMendac]

Get this in your minds folks. The T1 is meta. Lasers are a slightly (~100 DPS give or take) weaker alternative to pods, and no reactor is not such a big deal for scouts. Especially considering that mines and ions will be a rare commodity in such an event. Do you really think lack of retros is what makes the most mobile ship with two breaks non-meta suddenly? Think again.

 

What does 'veto' have to do with anything? You have the right to veto the whole event, sync queues as an 8-man Quarrel premade and make everyone's life hell. You could also selfdestruct as much as you can in order to make your own team lose. The event is by nature a voluntary one, you can't be forced into it...

 

Limiting the event is a reasonable request, both as a means of allowing players uninclined to participate to have their time without actively sabotaging the event, and also as a way to concentrate willing players into a smaller timeslot. It's benificial to all groups involved, in short.

 

My friend ;p how is it more accommodating to limit the use of more ships? Double missile breaks doesn't make it meta imo, for me retro serves to give me a kill shot in an enemy following me closely, or to give me another shot at a gunship/bomber, and it serves in that capacity at least as much as I use it as a break... I can't believe I'm heading seasoned pilots tell me that a novadive is as capable as a flashfire.... that is what ia being said here, otherwise classifying T1 scout as meta would make sting/flashfire superduperMETA I'm keeping mine on bar while participating

[Ramalina]

I can see some reasonable arguments for allowing the T1 scout in a non-meta environment.

 

For starters, the T3 scout is barely mediocre at filling a scout role when fully mastered, and just doesn't fill it at all at low req. levels. So while this is sort of a, "Theme night for GSF vets," there is sort of a, "no scouts for noobs," element to the proposed ruleset. That has the potential to suck both from a playstyle preference point of view, and from a tactical/strategic gameplay point of view if your team is in a state of really needing some ships in a scout role. Worth considering given that past experience has shown that some people will give new two ship players grief for, "flying the wrong ship," during a community GSF event.

 

Another anti-noob element to consider is that if a new pilot is reading guides with respect to getting ships, it's potentially a very long slog to get to having any ship other than the T1 strike available for participation in this event. Not a big deal for a multi-mastered GSF grayhair's fleets, but for a beginner the need to get 5 ships worth of fleet req in order to have more than one non-meta choice on their bar probably feels like a long and restrictive constraint.

 

 

Meta is mostly defined by burst damage, and pods damage is possibly the easiest meta damage to avoid in a general scenario. Tight firing arc really cuts its effectiveness against a target that's moving defensively. As a result I tend to regard the meta of non-BLC pods scouts to be a pretty tolerable level of meta when flying a non-meta ship.

 

I'd call the T1 scout and the T2 gunship sort of gray areas. The T1 scout a slightly darker gray than the T2 gunship, but if you kick out the T1 scout then large groups of T2 gunships could become a shade of gray that pretty closely approximates black.

 

Bottom line is that there's a bit of a correlation here between experience and gear advantage in this ruleset, and asking a player or team that's already going to fold under the weight of their existing disadvantages to take on extra handicaps or catch grief from self appointed, "enforcers," is fairly objectionable to me.

 

 

I suppose in theory you could define, "being a jerk in chat," as a banned meta for the non-meta guidelines, but I think some wiggle room in the ship selection criteria would probably be more effective in this case. Better yet, do both.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Ramalina

[Greezt]

My friend ;p how is it more accommodating to limit the use of more ships? Double missile breaks doesn't make it meta imo, for me retro serves to give me a kill shot in an enemy following me closely, or to give me another shot at a gunship/bomber, and it serves in that capacity at least as much as I use it as a break... I can't believe I'm heading seasoned pilots tell me that a novadive is as capable as a flashfire.... that is what ia being said here, otherwise classifying T1 scout as meta would make sting/flashfire superduperMETA I'm keeping mine on bar while participating

 

You can keep your T1 on the bar, no one can stop you. I'm not participating in the event either way (it being on Mondays means I am not available to fly at all).

 

Retros are more than a missile break, sure. So are barrel roll and powerdive. I've seen good scouts use any of the three options, and they all did well. Retros aren't the reason the T2 is considered meta.

 

A Novadive is not as capable as a Flashfire, but only because it lacks a reactor and quads. As I've already explained, quads are slightly superior to LC, and without a reactor the T1 loses some survivability. It's still the second highest DPS scout build. It can fill the roll of a T2 QnP scout handily, and the fact that it's a non-meta event would mean that it won't even need to deal with T2 scouts...

 

and

are two games where one particular pilot flew only the Novadive. See if you can spot him, and also decide for yourself how well he did. As matches go, these were pretty competitive ones.

 

For starters, the T3 scout is barely mediocre at filling a scout role when fully mastered, and just doesn't fill it at all at low req. levels. So while this is sort of a, "Theme night for GSF vets," there is sort of a, "no scouts for noobs," element to the proposed ruleset.

 

There is not, I think. The T1 strike can fill the roll of the T2 scout quite nicely for the event. No ions means it can actually reach places without dying, and it has pretty strong burst close-range with ion cannons. No T2 BLCs means that it can beat all ships close, too.

 

Worth considering given that past experience has shown that some people will give new two ship players grief for, "flying the wrong ship," during a community GSF event.

 

People will give other people grief no matter what if they perceive something that in their opinion is wrong. There are no limitations in regular GSF, yet you'll always see people complaining about strikes and such. The event is voluntary, as is any community event. If people decide to make it their business to enforce the laws, not much can be done about it. However, it's not special to the event and certainly not because of the T2 scout.

 

Another anti-noob element to consider is that if a new pilot is reading guides with respect to getting ships, it's potentially a very long slog to get to having any ship other than the T1 strike available for participation in this event. Not a big deal for a multi-mastered GSF grayhair's fleets, but for a beginner the need to get 5 ships worth of fleet req in order to have more than one non-meta choice on their bar probably feels like a long and restrictive constraint.

 

For one day a week? For a couple of hours (as I can only assume the next occasion will be time-gated)? They can certainly put off flying their serious ships for a short time period. And if that time window is all their playtime, they should do as they please. Something tells me that isn't the case for the vast majority of GSFers, though.

 

Meta is mostly defined by burst damage, and pods damage is possibly the easiest meta damage to avoid in a general scenario. Tight firing arc really cuts its effectiveness against a target that's moving defensively. As a result I tend to regard the meta of non-BLC pods scouts to be a pretty tolerable level of meta when flying a non-meta ship.

 

I recommend you watch the videos above too. Lasers/pods is a potent combo, I'm certain you know that. Also, avoiding pods with quads/LC is harder than with BLCs due to the fact that they're probably parking ~3000m from you and not firing from right on top of you.

 

Bottom line is that there's a bit of a correlation here between experience and gear advantage in this ruleset, and asking a player or team that's already going to fold under the weight of their existing disadvantages to take on extra handicaps or catch grief from self appointed, "enforcers," is fairly objectionable to me.

 

I'm not sure what to make of this part. There is an event. It has rules, not 'handicaps'. No one has threatened anyone with grief for not participating in it.

 

Who are these "enforcers", and what have they done? The only request I've seen here is a reasonable one - remove the T1 scout, it's meta. I fail to see what exactly is objectionable about anything here.

[Maulkat]

Ok after the success or failure of this on Harbinger, TRE, JC and Prog. I have had some feedback from people on Harb and TRE. More from Harb as that's my home so I'll relay some of what was talked about or mentioned.

 

There were "grizzle haired" vets saying, "I don't want to fly non meta". *climbs into a meta ship" Others asked what non meta is and then promptly said, "I don't have one of those types of ships". However after been BLCed and railgunned by scouts and GSs, I still went on with the event.

 

As Ramalina pointed out in his post, there are new pilots flying at any given time. I never said anything to them about picking scouts or requested them to fly the SF. Also, I never expected full compliance of all to fly non meta, but I had the hope the vets with a hanger full of ships could for one day set aside the T1 and 3 GS and T2 scout.

 

Of the vets involved, about half of them flew non meta. It started to get really difficult around 9pm cst to get people to stay in non meta and I gave up. A cut off time was established by the population (one reason I didn't set one originally. I wanted to see when it would cut off on its own). The timing though can be as early as the queues start popping (around noon cst) and end at 9pm cst.

 

Feedback from TRE: Early in the day there was almost no involvement in this event (maybe they didn't know?), but later in the day there was more non meta and the involvement of some of that server's "aces". That being said, if these aces had NOT flown non meta, the event there would have been a failure. If too much meta was on the opposing team, then meta was brought out. So timing on that server might be better served to start later in the day (for them) instead of earlier. I will try to post a realistic time frame for this event before next Monday.

 

Other feedback has been to include the T1 scout or take out the T2 GS. Personally, I like playing the T2 GS in events like this. It didn't become an overpowered ship (yesterday) like many people thought it would. There were too many other T1 or 3 GS out there to be worried about a T2. Same can be said for the T1 scout, there were too many T2s out there to worry if somebody was in a T1.

[TheMendac]

You can keep your T1 on the bar, no one can stop you. I'm not participating in the event either way (it being on Mondays means I am not available to fly at all).

 

But man, when it is said to not participate, I know that what i mean is that you can fly whatever ship you want I wasn't saying you should find something else to do and I really doubt that is what maulkat means either:( fly whatever you would like to man, as far as I'm concerned seasoned vets have each earned the right to fly anything they want at any time :/

Edited November 29, 2016 by TheMendac

[TheMendac]

and I was jk about the veto thing dude lol......

[Greezt]

But man, when it is said to not participate, I know that what i mean is that you can fly whatever ship you want I wasn't saying you should find something else to do and I really doubt that is what maulkat means either:( fly whatever you would like to man, as far as I'm concerned seasoned vets have each earned the right to fly anything they want at any time :/

 

This is veering off-course. I meant that I am not participating in the event as I am not flying at all. I can only fly on some Thursdays and Fridays these days, so that's it. I'm sure everyone understood what you meant though.

 

To cut things short and avoid needless discussion, I'll put it this way; you can fly whatever you want, but it would be highly appreciated if you chose to fly one of the ships listed for the event.

 

Also, if anyone has plans for recording some of the matches from next Monday, I'd love to see them.

[philwil]

Hows about solo Q Sundays....

[Maulkat]

I will be soloing more often now I'm sure. It won't be on Six or Lucky though since I don't do pve on those two. Anyway, after hearing more feedback, I have decided to set times for the event to run.

 

For EU servers, it'll be 7pm-10pm UTC and East and West coast servers from 7pm-10pm server time.

[Maulkat]

*bump*

 

Just a quick reminder to try and fly non meta this evening.

[Eagling]

I forgot about NMM, but as soon as I remembered I switcged my loadout. I think I've got a suitable setup - Pike, Clarion, Spearpoint, Comet, Sledgehammer.

[Maulkat]

It's again Monday. So please, if you can fly non meta ships in your matches.

[GroXL]

Last Monday I got wrecked with serious amounts of ion on TRE. I'll be brave and try to fly Quell / Pike tonight