Why Lord Scourge, Kira, and Revan must return for KOTET.

[CorellianWannabe]

KOTFE did a lot of things right from a storytelling perspective, but BioWare also made a lot of mistakes with regard to how they reintroduced companions. This can be improved upon. Outright abandoning the approach isn't ideal. Of course, this change in tactics is largely happening due to the lack of group content in KOTFE and the outcry from raiders.

 

What did they do right- endless skytrooper trash mobs? Endless cutscenes where 'choices' didn't matter? New companions forced on the player? A cliche-riddled plot seemingly cribbed from a game master too in love with his Mary Sue NPCs to let those unwashed players affect the story?

 

Silly players expecting this previous MMO to be more than a means of preventing piracy by requiring an 'always online' scheme for the new single-player game. Everyone should know by now that any group content is purely vestigial and that the real game is grinding heroics over and over to get enough gear to get back to where your character was at before the nerfs.

[CorellianWannabe]

Truth be told, I think BioWare deliberately saved the best for last.

 

Ashara? Nadia? Mako? Any other teenage girls (in mentality if not phyiscal age) I forgot? These 'almost jailbait' characters are some of the best? Kira-the smart-mouthed ex-Sith that players are forced to take as a padawan, even when her master is found to be alive and should really take back the stray? Doc the horndog? Corso the bumpkin? Scourge the grumpy old man? Iresso the man is search of a personality? Zenith the laconic (if not monosyllabic) psychopath?

 

I understand that Jaesa and Khem are just too complicated- after all, expecting the devs to account for a good/evil Jaesa or a Khem/Zash is clearly expecting too much. But hey, here's a Khem lookalike!

 

I can guess why Tharan isn't back- the new writer already used that name (probably without playing the game and learning it was taken) and Theron and Tharan would be too confusing.

[Aowin]

What of if they come back together to hunt you down and kill you because technically you are valokorians new vessel. At least they see it that way and think that stopping you somehow entraps valkorian.

 

Maybe even dive even deeper into it and have it so they had been keeping people away from helping you when you were trapped in carbonite because valkorian was actually trapt in there too. Valkorian helping you stay alive was essentially him keeping himself alive through you.

 

Killing the Outlander resolves nothing. Valkorion no longer needs a vessel or a host. He comes and goes as he pleases and he is suggested as being immortal. Whether he can be destroyed at all is really an interesting question. I think the only thing the Outlander can do is banish Valkorion from his/her mind.

 

I suspect we may have to banish his spirit to some structure, similar to Exar Kun.

[Aowin]

I guess I can't really blame them, I'd be mental too, if I had to wait so long for what I wanted to do. That time may yet come, depending on when they decide to return the companions. It's not a hiatus I look forward to. :/

 

BioWare is trying to do a balancing act of appealing to the story fans as well as the group content fans. KOTFE was heavily focused on story, so they are re-evaluating based on feedback and are trying to strike a better balance. I don't know if that's necessarily the right move, as I actually enjoyed the monthly chapters and had something to look forward to, but it's what we are getting. It just means the wait for companions will be longer since BioWare will be focusing on other aspects of the game.

[Aowin]

...

 

What did BioWare do right? Well, BioWare made a story where the player is largely the focus again (was not the case in RotHC or SoR). We had much more variety in choices and some of those choices did result in consequences (companions dying among other things). We had a new setting that was refreshing and a whole company of new companions and villains to get to know. The cinematography has never been better for this game.

 

If you are so displeased with the game, why are you still here? It seems you are harming yourself by remaining if it is so unpleasant for you.

[Aowin]

Ashara? Nadia? Mako? Any other teenage girls (in mentality if not phyiscal age) I forgot? These 'almost jailbait' characters are some of the best? Kira-the smart-mouthed ex-Sith that players are forced to take as a padawan, even when her master is found to be alive and should really take back the stray? Doc the horndog? Corso the bumpkin? Scourge the grumpy old man? Iresso the man is search of a personality? Zenith the laconic (if not monosyllabic) psychopath?

 

I understand that Jaesa and Khem are just too complicated- after all, expecting the devs to account for a good/evil Jaesa or a Khem/Zash is clearly expecting too much. But hey, here's a Khem lookalike!

 

I can guess why Tharan isn't back- the new writer already used that name (probably without playing the game and learning it was taken) and Theron and Tharan would be too confusing.

I was actually thinking more so of Risha, DS Jaesa, and to a lesser degree Kira. These romances for males, were actually quite in-depth and well-executed. I know Quinn is also a very popular LI for many ladies, so I'm really curious to see how all of those characters will eventually be introduced.

 

I don't see the DS/LS Jaesa and Khem Val being an issue. It has been five years in the story. BioWare can just make them Light Side or Dark Side and justify it through events the Outlander wasn't present for.

[Darklighter]

Didn't the Ebon Hawk crash on Nathema? I'd rather the Ebon Hawk back than Revan.

 

They've already proved they can't bring Revan into the story without ruining the character.

[Newyankalt]

Didn't the Ebon Hawk crash on Nathema? I'd rather the Ebon Hawk back than Revan.

 

They've already proved they can't bring Revan into the story without ruining the character.

 

Yeah Revans been over used

 

 

 

And if Kira comes back, hopefully I can kill her on sight

[Aowin]

Yeah Revans been over used

 

And if Kira comes back, hopefully I can kill her on sight

 

Revan hasn't been over-used. He has been poorly used. There is a difference.

 

Considering killing companions has not been an option for most of them, except the ones who are truly detestable, I doubt Kira will be an option for killing.

[Newyankalt]

Revan hasn't been over-used. He has been poorly used. There is a difference.

 

Considering killing companions has not been an option for most of them, except the ones who are truly detestable, I doubt Kira will be an option for killing.

 

Actually a lot of companies you can kill or decline them.

 

And they said there would be a lot of options to kill people in the expansion

[Aowin]

Actually a lot of companies you can kill or decline them.

 

And they said there would be a lot of options to kill people in the expansion

 

Killing them and refusing to bring them into the Alliance are two, separate things. It is a fact that a majority of the companions you obtain (specifically class companions) cannot be killed.

 

I'm aware that KOTET will give players the option of killing a lot of their companions. As it stands, we do not actually know whether or not Scrouge and Kira are returning. I'm merely making a reasoned argument that their inclusion would make sense based on their history. If BioWare does bring them back in KOTET, it is quite possible they could die.

[CorellianWannabe]

What did BioWare do right? Well, BioWare made a story where the player is largely the focus again (was not the case in RotHC or SoR). We had much more variety in choices and some of those choices did result in consequences (companions dying among other things). We had a new setting that was refreshing and a whole company of new companions and villains to get to know. The cinematography has never been better for this game.

 

If you are so displeased with the game, why are you still here? It seems you are harming yourself by remaining if it is so unpleasant for you.

 

No, Lana is the focus. The outlander is the figurehead that runs errands based on what she and Theron 'order'. I'm guessing Lana was the devs' pet NPC in the tabletop game this whole sad story was apparently cribbed from.

 

Choices that matter- Koth manages to steal your super ship, comes back anyway. Try to kill Arcann twice, he escapes.

 

Cinematography? Too bad that doesn't translate to the laggy, choppy framerate outside of the interminable cutscenes.

 

Refreshing new setting? You mean the swamp or Breaktown-an area consisting of a few alleys? Or do you mean Zakuul, one planet that is apparently better than the entire Republic and Empire combined?

 

New characters to get to know? Good thing they have so many cutscenes to learn that Arcann glowers and Vaylin giggles, while Koth idolizes the Emperor you're trying to stop and Senya is busy betraying the Alliance she chose to associate with.

 

I'm finishing up my stories and characters- call it the completionist in me. The only reason I would waste time with the nex expansion is if there were no other method to gather materials to craft gear, since I refuse to play for 300+ hours to hope to get gear from the RNG garbage plan.

Edited November 20, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[CorellianWannabe]

I was actually thinking more so of Risha, DS Jaesa, and to a lesser degree Kira. These romances for males, were actually quite in-depth and well-executed. I know Quinn is also a very popular LI for many ladies, so I'm really curious to see how all of those characters will eventually be introduced.

 

I don't see the DS/LS Jaesa and Khem Val being an issue. It has been five years in the story. BioWare can just make them Light Side or Dark Side and justify it through events the Outlander wasn't present for.

 

Prepare for either shoehorned chapters in part 3- "Valkorion's long lost cousin's wife's uncle claims the throne" or more alerts that involve the endlessly repeating 'special events'. Maybe a super special Gree item to win back Risha's attention?

 

In other words once again 'choices matter we swear'?

[Costello]

What did they do right- endless skytrooper trash mobs? Endless cutscenes where 'choices' didn't matter? New companions forced on the player? A cliche-riddled plot seemingly cribbed from a game master too in love with his Mary Sue NPCs to let those unwashed players affect the story?

 

Silly players expecting this previous MMO to be more than a means of preventing piracy by requiring an 'always online' scheme for the new single-player game. Everyone should know by now that any group content is purely vestigial and that the real game is grinding heroics over and over to get enough gear to get back to where your character was at before the nerfs.

 

Incredibly well put, its a shame that none of the creative team bother to read the forums. As demonstrated by being oblivious to the fact that people had seen a dead Theron in the throne room in the trailer and had been commented on multiple times on the forums. Yet Charles on the live stream commented that he was surprised no one noticed the body in the throne room.

 

I full agree that Scourge and Kira have to return in this expansion given where we are going and what we are to learn. The entire Shadow of Revan story did far too much damage to him for Revan to ever make a return. If he did come back it would become a sad joke.

 

However Lord Scourge and Kira are tied to the story, which has been the excuse used for not bringing the companions back because they wouldn't fit into the story. Well here are two companions (one a LI and the other a very sought after love interest (no accounting for taste)) that make perfect sense to be brought back and would be vital to the narrative. Should they not be brought back it would have to call into quest the claim that companions are only brought back when they fit the story.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Costello

[BlueShiftRecall]

Incredibly well put, its a shame that none of the creative team bother to read the forums. As demonstrated by being oblivious to the fact that people had seen a dead Theron in the throne room in the trailer and had been commented on multiple times on the forums. Yet Charles on the live stream commented that he was surprised no one noticed the body in the throne room.

 

I know for a fact that, that particular scene was discussed in multiple threads (sometimes even taking over other threads on a different topic altogether) after the trailer was released. I think it was one of the biggest talking points from the trailer along with Arcann.

[Ralei]

Well here are two companions (one a LI and the other a very sought after love interest (no accounting for taste)) that make perfect sense to be brought back and would be vital to the narrative. Should they not be brought back it would have to call into quest the claim that companions are only brought back when they fit the story.

 

Taste!? Oh, come on. He's tall, suave, powerful, learned, unique, and completely confident in his ways. The Sith ideal come to life. Even a jedi has to impressed and intrigued by that ****. Scourge should have been an obvious li for the jedi, to anyone, especially a writer. He even has a built in barrier to love, he can't feel anything. That's a Nicholas Sparks novel just waiting to be written.

 

Instead, we got Doc.

[JennyFlynn]

I know for a fact that, that particular scene was discussed in multiple threads (sometimes even taking over other threads on a different topic altogether) after the trailer was released. I think it was one of the biggest talking points from the trailer along with Arcann.

 

Precisely. Which just goes to show how little attention they actually pay to anything on the forums unless the odd, unpopular comment here and there happens to provide them with a perfect excuse for asinine changes.

 

- "We heard feedback that players wish they could repeat the KotFE chapters".. said no one ever, especially not those with alts.

- "We heard feedback that people needed closure on certain story aspects and the returning companions took too much away from the story".. no, people simply didn't like the ones that did return or felt that say Force user orientated chapters did nothing for them as a Smuggler.

 

You wanna know what chewed up time that could have been better spent in chapters? Endless Skytroopers. Eliminate those instead of withholding our companions.

 

Alas, I'm little hopeful for either three of these guys to return any time soon.

[Lunafox]

BioWare is trying to do a balancing act of appealing to the story fans as well as the group content fans. KOTFE was heavily focused on story, so they are re-evaluating based on feedback and are trying to strike a better balance. I don't know if that's necessarily the right move, as I actually enjoyed the monthly chapters and had something to look forward to, but it's what we are getting. It just means the wait for companions will be longer since BioWare will be focusing on other aspects of the game.

 

I do agree with you. I preferred having monthly chapters too, so that there was something to look forward to. The idea of getting a glut of chapters and then nothing for who knows how long bothers me. It was better for them to give us a bit of new stuff each month and by so doing buying themselves time to produce more, in such a way that we don't get bored.

 

I have to be honest, I'm biased...if it was up to me alone, it would be all story all the time. That's my priority. I try to look at it fairly and be fair about it when it comes to group content, but if pressed against a wall, I'd choose story as a priority every single time, because I don't play group stuff, it's lost on me. I think it sucks that they take our favorite comps and then decide because of the lukewarm appeal of getting the crappy comps back, that they're going to take years to return our favs and work on other things. I don't think I'm that patient. I hope they have the good sense to give them back to us first. That would appease me enough, that I could throw my support towards other things in the game. What can I say? Colour me selfish, I guess. :/

Edited November 20, 2016 by Lunafox

[Rheshalea]

Instead, we got Doc.

 

Which is the only reason I played my female knight through SoR and KotFE. I needed to get to ditch that loser and hook up with Theron instead.

 

Disclaimer: I have absolutely nothing against Jedi Knights, i just have boatloads of other characters I prefer playing above her.

[Lunafox]

Taste!? Oh, come on. He's tall, suave, powerful, learned, unique, and completely confident in his ways. The Sith ideal come to life. Even a jedi has to impressed and intrigued by that ****. Scourge should have been an obvious li for the jedi, to anyone, especially a writer. He even has a built in barrier to love, he can't feel anything. That's a Nicholas Sparks novel just waiting to be written.

 

Instead, we got Doc.

 

Yes, exactly, all that, right there. Scourge is a brilliant potential love interest, and yet another example how this writing team is dropping the ball. As you say, a romance story with Lord Scourge would be a beautiful thing!

 

And even though Doc appeals to me a perverse level, I do enjoy him, it's just no comparison to the awesome that is Scourge.

 

Support the movement, don the sig! Make Scourge a romanceable love interest! ♥♥♥

[Aowin]

...

 

In Charles' defense, the trailer was only live for 24 hours and I doubt he's religiously reading the forums. If anyone should have known about folks pointing out Theron almost immediately, it should have been Eric.

 

Actually, there were quite a few threads in the suggestion section of the forums since KOTFE launched that were asking for repeatable chapters. They were also asking for repeatable class stories which haven't happened yet. BioWare definitely did not lie about some of the player wanting to revisit previous chapters.

 

The companions BioWare returned were odd choices. The stories surrounding these companions joining the Alliance also didn't make a lot of sense, which is really why I think folks criticized the monthly chapters so heavily. Completely tossing out that system entirely just because folks wanted to see improvement was an overreaction to a valid criticism.

 

If Scourge and Kira do not make an appearance in KOTET, I will really be perplexed by the writing team's choices. Those characters being included should be obvious. Especially since Drew Karpyshyn returned to BioWare Austin and was one of the key writers on KOTET (he wrote the Revan book), he, of all people, should be advocating for these characters.

[Aowin]

I have to be honest, I'm biased...if it was up to me alone, it would be all story all the time. That's my priority. I try to look at it fairly and be fair about it when it comes to group content, but if pressed against a wall, I'd choose story as a priority every single time, because I don't play group stuff, it's lost on me. I think it sucks that they take our favorite comps and then decide because of the lukewarm appeal of getting the crappy comps back, that they're going to take years to return our favs and work on other things. I don't think I'm that patient. I hope they have the good sense to give them back to us first. That would appease me enough, that I could throw my support towards other things in the game. What can I say? Colour me selfish, I guess. :/

 

Agreed. KOTFE actually gave me a reason to maintain my subscription as there was always new story to enjoy the following month. ROTHC and SOR had no incentives after their initial releases and I unsubscribed shortly thereafter. Sadly, I will probably unsubscribe once I get through all the chapters in KOTET and get my fill of uprisings unless the subscriber reward program continues and is much better.

 

Honestly, I think focusing on the story is what will ultimately keep this MMO alive and thriving. No other MMO has BioWare storytelling. Every other MMO has raids, arenas, and instanced PvP. That's not to say those features still shouldn't see content every now and then, but I do believe the priority should be story.

 

My problem with content such as uprisings and new operations is they'd be fun for a few weeks at most. After that folks would get tired of them and that content will have been exhausted. That's the problem with a content-driven theme park MMO. At least with the KOTFE format, we had a new chapter of story every month. By the time all of the chapters were concluded, the next expansion was around the corner. I personally thought that was a great approach.

 

Perhaps if BioWare sees there is a lot less subscriber retention in KOTET due to having to wait another full year for more story, they may reconsider their current game design approach.

[JennyFlynn]

In Charles' defense, the trailer was only live for 24 hours and I doubt he's religiously reading the forums. If anyone should have known about folks pointing out Theron almost immediately, it should have been Eric.

 

Actually, there were quite a few threads in the suggestion section of the forums since KOTFE launched that were asking for repeatable chapters. They were also asking for repeatable class stories which haven't happened yet. BioWare definitely did not lie about some of the player wanting to revisit previous chapters.

 

The companions BioWare returned were odd choices. The stories surrounding these companions joining the Alliance also didn't make a lot of sense, which is really why I think folks criticized the monthly chapters so heavily. Completely tossing out that system entirely just because folks wanted to see improvement was an overreaction to a valid criticism.

 

If Scourge and Kira do not make an appearance in KOTET, I will really be perplexed by the writing team's choices. Those characters being included should be obvious. Especially since Drew Karpyshyn returned to BioWare Austin and was one of the key writers on KOTET (he wrote the Revan book), he, of all people, should be advocating for these characters.

 

In my time spent on the forums, I haven't once come across a single thread or post where people stated they wanted to repeat a chapter. If they do exist, it's quite possible I either never noticed or they were quickly buried beneath endless criticism. I did see some ask to replay a chapter BUT only because certain choices they made had an outcome they weren't expecting, or didn't like, and they wished to undo and change that choice. Others missed out on locking a romance in during CH9 and therefore wished to repeat. That part is understandable but it's not what we're getting. Choices will have no impact when you repeat.

 

"Completely tossing out that system entirely just because folks wanted to see improvement was an overreaction to a valid criticism." - I fully agree. It seems extreme and almost like a far fetched excuse to cover up potential other reasons such as time restraints, VA issues, budgetary issues etc.

 

The writing team has been a let down for a while. I thoroughly enjoyed SoR but they missed the mark hardcore when Lord Scourge had no role or additional lines as your companion. You can literally face Revan a hundred times over in that expac with Lord Scourge at your side and.. nothing. That alone was bad enough but now this? I became extremely hopeful when I first heard Drew would be writing for KOTET. Finally someone who understands Lord Scourge's value, who can do him justice, who can advocate for the character but it strongly seems another disappointment is headed our way and I'm not happy. Dropping the ball doesn't even begin to describe it.

[Aowin]

In my time spent on the forums, I haven't once come across a single thread or post where people stated they wanted to repeat a chapter. If they do exist, it's quite possible I either never noticed or they were quickly buried beneath endless criticism. I did see some ask to replay a chapter BUT only because certain choices they made had an outcome they weren't expecting, or didn't like, and they wished to undo and change that choice. Others missed out on locking a romance in during CH9 and therefore wished to repeat. That part is understandable but it's not what we're getting. Choices will have no impact when you repeat.

 

"Completely tossing out that system entirely just because folks wanted to see improvement was an overreaction to a valid criticism." - I fully agree. It seems extreme and almost like a far fetched excuse to cover up potential other reasons such as time restraints, VA issues, budgetary issues etc.

 

The writing team has been a let down for a while. I thoroughly enjoyed SoR but they missed the mark hardcore when Lord Scourge had no role or additional lines as your companion. You can literally face Revan a hundred times over in that expac with Lord Scourge at your side and.. nothing. That alone was bad enough but now this? I became extremely hopeful when I first heard Drew would be writing for KOTET. Finally someone who understands Lord Scourge's value, who can do him justice, who can advocate for the character but it strongly seems another disappointment is headed our way and I'm not happy. Dropping the ball doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

I could suggest you to do a search, but I'll make things easier for you: http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=662552

 

It's very possible there are plenty of other threads that are just worded differently asking for the same thing. Either way, the inclusion of repeatable chapters does actually prove that BioWare looks at the suggestion forum and even makes design decisions based on that feedback.

 

Honestly, I don't really believe BioWare's claim that "companion chapters were poorly received so we are scrapping them." Ben Irving made remarks a month or so ago stating that BioWare was not able to do any other content besides story during KOTFE due to having the entire team dedicated to getting story content ready every month.

 

It seems to me BioWare is just trying to appease those who don't really care about story and wanted more group content. I don't know if that's necessarily a wise choice, as I think the longevity of the expansion will suffer as a result, but I can understand trying to make a well-rounded product for everyone. Of course, a jack of all trades tends to be a master of none.

 

I really hope Drew did not allow the writing team to not include Scourge. He created the character. There is absolutely no reason with Drew being involved that Scourge is not in KOTET. He has to be there. Otherwise, I have no idea what the writing team is doing.

[Rrusalka]

Well I guess today's stream has put the nail in this coffin. It's what I thought would happen but still disappointing to say the least