Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[Bruticis]

Not that I ever said that of course, but I will answer you...it's because "I" enjoy the game obviously. However, I've watched several servers die, countless guilds go poof and there's nothing in 5.0 that will even pretends to slow the hemorrhaging. It's because I enjoy this game that I point out the stupid **** they do. It's because I want to see this game thrive, not wither and die.

 

Weird considering I keep reading about how evil EA is, how greedy EA is, how incompetent Bioware devs are, etc, etc, etc. If you feel those things are true, what good does feedback do? Again, I'm not discouraging feedback but I'm trying to understand what exactly it is the gang hopes to accomplish. I'll be honest, to an outsider it looks like you guys just like to rant and rave about everything.

[TUXs]

Weird considering I keep reading about how evil EA is, how greedy EA is, how incompetent Bioware devs are, etc, etc, etc. If you feel those things are true, what good does feedback do? Again, I'm not discouraging feedback but I'm trying to understand what exactly it is the gang hopes to accomplish. I'll be honest, to an outsider it looks like you guys just like to rant and rave about everything.

Ask the "gang"...I'm just one guy.

[Bruticis]

Ask the "gang"...I'm just one guy.

 

Well you did just post not long ago about how you were convinced ALL the changes were made to benefit the CM and allow them sell boosts. If you're convinced that's true I can't even begin to understand why you think anything you say will make them suddenly change course.

 

Yet, we can all see that it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the CM. It's 100% the reason they went with new XP...so they could sell boosts. We're not stupid.

[Jerba]

Well you did just post not long ago about how you were convinced ALL the changes were made to benefit the CM and allow them sell boosts. If you're convinced that's true I can't even begin to understand why you think anything you say will make them suddenly change course.

There have been cases where we convinced the devs to change course. The tactical markers come to mind, and as was already mentioned the Space PvE parts. There are also many issues where the devs are unwilling to listen to players, or where it takes them many months to listen. But there is hope that they will listen on this topic.

[Transcendent]

CXP seems like it was 100% developed to sell CXP stims. Grinding to 70 wasn't enough? Doing 5-year old content wasn't enough? Re-grinding gear wasn't enough? I find it ridiculous.

 

Here is my take on the whole CXP Booster thing.

1. If a player has to partake in GC to obtain Command Ranks, they already subscribe to the game. That's one method of payment.
   
2. To obtain gear in 5.0 you have to rely on arbitrary RNG, that can be adjusted behind the scenes so you simply don't know how the odds are stacked against you. Essentially extending the amount of grind per character to get geared up, while paying to do this. That's an unknown factor of cost, because we don't have the information and BioWare will never share those odds or how they've setup the RNG to work with us (no different to the CM).
   
3. If (it's an IF) BioWare choose to go down the route of selling CXP boosters, anyone who purchased them should see point 2. BioWare set the RNG, and the odds. Gaining more Command Crates doesn't mean you'll get geared quickly, it's just a psychological mechanism to make a person feel like they are progressing faster. However, they'll gain a monetary advantage out of any player that chooses to pay in addition to the previous to points.
   

 

So it seems pretty clear, that there is indeed a line to be drawn on this one. If BioWare choose to sell CXP boosters on top of RNG gearing it will show they have absolutely no respect at all for any of their paying customers, and are simply trying to gouge them financially.

 

Guess we'll find out when 5.0 lands how BioWare view it's customers.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Transcendent

[Rolodome]

I never said that, nor do I believe it. CXP seems like it was 100% developed to sell CXP stims. Grinding to 70 wasn't enough? Doing 5-year old content wasn't enough? Re-grinding gear wasn't enough? I find it ridiculous. I trust those who have earned my trust.

 

You're free to leave if you want. nobody is making you stay here and play. I tend to not trust anyone who's after every cent they can get from me...I'm glad you're not that cynical yet...

I never thought that you think I'm stupid. What I meant was that I was taking them at their word and sincerely did not expect CXP boosts, or something like it, to show up, so that's where that part of it came from.

 

And trust me, I understand completely that no one is making me stay here. But I have not been here through everything that some players have and if I had, it's possible I would not be here now. I don't have much patience for putting up with lying, no matter how much enjoyment I get out of a product. I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Ultimately, I'm just voicing how I feel about it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Ask the "gang"...I'm just one guy.

 

Some people start to post in such a manner when they find themselves part of a minority I guess? In this case the minority that still supports the direction BWA/EA take this game in.

[RswanBing]

Some people start to post in such a manner when they find themselves part of a minority I guess? In this case the minority that still supports the direction BWA/EA take this game in.

 

As I understand it, Bruticis is using it to insinuate that TUXs is part of a constituate group of people and not just a player talking. It's a very common, and really not subtle move when you can't argue with someone.

Edited November 8, 2016 by RswanBing

[Morrolan]

Here is my take on the whole CXP Booster thing.

1. If a player has to partake in GC to obtain Command Ranks, they already subscribe to the game. That's one method of payment.
   
2. To obtain gear in 5.0 you have to rely on arbitrary RNG, that can be adjusted behind the scenes so you simply don't know how the odds are stacked against you. Essentially extending the amount of grind per character to get geared up, while paying to do this. That's an unknown factor of cost, because we don't have the information and BioWare will never share those odds or how they've setup the RNG to work with us (no different to the CM).
   
3. If (it's an IF) BioWare choose to go down the route of selling CXP boosters, anyone who purchased them should see point 2. BioWare set the RNG, and the odds. Gaining more Command Crates doesn't mean you'll get geared quickly, it's just a psychological mechanism to make a person feel like they are progressing faster. However, they'll gain a monetary advantage out of any player that chooses to pay in addition to the previous to points.
   

 

So it seems pretty clear, that there is indeed a line to be drawn on this one. If BioWare choose to sell CXP boosters on top of RNG gearing it will show they have absolutely no respect at all for any of their paying customers, and are simply trying to gouge them financially.

 

Guess we'll find out when 5.0 lands how BioWare view it's customers.

 

Yep everyone should google for coercive f2p monetization practices. A cxp booster to over come the GC soft gating would be straight out of that playbook. The kicker is those sorts of practices are used in f2p games because the publishers have no other ongoing revenue stream after the game is bought. With 5.0 swtor will become pretty much a sub game again, F2P will solely be a trial, so they will have the sub revenue stream and they would be layering in this booster revenue stream over the top. I'm not sure any other sub game has ever done that, it would be nothing but gouging subscribers.

[Soljin]

Here is my take on the whole CXP Booster thing.

1. If a player has to partake in GC to obtain Command Ranks, they already subscribe to the game. That's one method of payment.
   
2. To obtain gear in 5.0 you have to rely on arbitrary RNG, that can be adjusted behind the scenes so you simply don't know how the odds are stacked against you. Essentially extending the amount of grind per character to get geared up, while paying to do this. That's an unknown factor of cost, because we don't have the information and BioWare will never share those odds or how they've setup the RNG to work with us (no different to the CM).
   
3. If (it's an IF) BioWare choose to go down the route of selling CXP boosters, anyone who purchased them should see point 2. BioWare set the RNG, and the odds. Gaining more Command Crates doesn't mean you'll get geared quickly, it's just a psychological mechanism to make a person feel like they are progressing faster. However, they'll gain a monetary advantage out of any player that chooses to pay in addition to the previous to points.
   

 

So it seems pretty clear, that there is indeed a line to be drawn on this one. If BioWare choose to sell CXP boosters on top of RNG gearing it will show they have absolutely no respect at all for any of their paying customers, and are simply trying to gouge them financially.

 

Guess we'll find out when 5.0 lands how BioWare view it's customers.

 

I agree with this 100%...

[Bruticis]

Some people start to post in such a manner when they find themselves part of a minority I guess? In this case the minority that still supports the direction BWA/EA take this game in.

 

If you don't support Bioware, why are you still paying for a sub? You guys and your stockholm syndrome truly fascinate me. I wish I could get people to just hand me money every month all the while hating me and the service I provide. I'm jealous!

[TUXs]

Well you did just post not long ago about how you were convinced ALL the changes were made to benefit the CM and allow them sell boosts. If you're convinced that's true I can't even begin to understand why you think anything you say will make them suddenly change course.

I said the change to CXP was done 100% to benefit the CM...there's no denying that...I never said "all the changes".

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If you don't support Bioware, why are you still paying for a sub? You guys and your stockholm syndrome truly fascinate me. I wish I could get people to just hand me money every month all the while hating me and the service I provide. I'm jealous!

 

Because I want to get KotET and figured I'd buy a month now as I'd still get it once it drops.

 

Their other changes I don't agree with, I've burned through all the content too much to enjoy again even if they weren't doing it and thus I will not sub after that until such a time that I feel like paying again as I would get enjoyment and value for money out of my sub.

 

9 chapters for $15 ... good deal.

 

Nice to see you've lost all semblance of holding an argument in this thread though and reverted to the tired old "if you hate it why pay for it" argument. Nice one.

[peter_plankskull]

Honestly, that was just not necessary. So I have a day off were I chose to listen to music and bum around on the forum.

 

Not sure if serious or not but... yeah... ill do it anyway. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that .

 

I would respond to the second part normally but it seems you have gone to forum pvp with someone else you... you traitor !!!

[JabbaWabbA]

It won't just be the gear, because at some point down the line people will start actually getting geared and they'll need to keep people interested.

 

How do you keep tricking people into playing the same old content over and over? They'll start adding mounts, skins, dyes, you name it--for a limited time (like an event), dropping from these crates.

 

You'll need these CXP Boosts to capitalize on that stuff. The gear is just the tip of the iceberg.

[nepochop]

And these "P2W" implementations are not nearly as heinous as the original release of heroic space combat and grade 7 ship parts - that WAS definitely P2W: you HAD to purchase the grade 7 ship parts (off the CM: whether directly or the CT schematics) to even have a chance at completing the heroic space combat missions; it was a paywall. It was obvious (to me anyway) that EA/BW tested the waters for a more P2W model and we the players cried out with a resounding NO!

 

TL;DR - CXP boosts would be pay-to-accelerate not pay-to-win. But it can be argued that the "subscribe for new content" model is a version of P2W because one has to pay to advance, but it is more palatable than other examples.

 

Yup that was a good example of P2W model, true.

[nepochop]

I still dont get what the gear will be for??

 

EV HM??

[Tsetso]

I still dont get what the gear will be for??

 

EV HM??

 

No, according to BWA/EA gearing is the goal, EV HM is the means. They totally put the carriage before the horse. You don't gear to do hard content, you do any content just to gear. And if you do it too fast, they'll ninja nerf the weights and make you buy cxp boosters to keep grinding.

[PlasmaJohn]

Strict pay-to-win schemes involve cash shop items that you must have to compete in or tackle the "interesting" content. Most people consider cash shop methods of bypassing unreasonable grinds also P2W. (Where unreasonable is on the order of months).

 

So while the "alleged" CXP boosters may not qualify as P2W they certainly cross many players' line of what they consider acceptable especially if they show up in the cash shop.

 

Do your due diligence and seek out the info-that-shall-not-be-discussed-here since it will certainly answer any questions about their initial intentions w.r.t. boosters and the cash shop.

[nepochop]

No, according to BWA/EA gearing is the goal, EV HM is the means. They totally put the carriage before the horse. You don't gear to do hard content, you do any content just to gear. And if you do it too fast, they'll ninja nerf the weights and make you buy cxp boosters to keep grinding.

 

Well good thing that 224 gear isnt far off the TOP END 240 gear in 5.0 that means you can jump right into Veteran mode Uprisings.

[RswanBing]

If you don't support Bioware, why are you still paying for a sub? You guys and your stockholm syndrome truly fascinate me. I wish I could get people to just hand me money every month all the while hating me and the service I provide. I'm jealous!

 

People pays a sub to enjoy the game. If you like a game, it doesn't make you obliged to support the studio or to like the directions they choose. If you don't understand that...

[JediQuaker]

Considering the fact that you need to be a subscriber (or buy unlocks) to play the full game, SWTOR is "Pay to win" by definition.

[RswanBing]

Considering the fact that you need to be a subscriber (or buy unlocks) to play the full game, SWTOR is "Pay to win" by definition.

 

I disagree, the game just isn't free. Free to play, is a way to present things, but we all know that a f2p player can't do everything without paying. And with 5.0 even less. So SWTOR just isn't a free game.

 

But a sub doesn't make a game "pay to win", you're not paying to get more gear or I don't know what, you're paying for full access to the game.

 

We all know that this game wouldn't exist if he was completely free, the sub is a regular thing.

[Xertasian]

let the old man break it down..if they sell booster or not to get rank..even if somebody get the top level command boost gear it wont change much of there gameplay..meaning if you suck at the game or whatever class gear can't fix it..let them put the boost make some income..either way you still got to grind and you not guaranteed to get the pieces you need..

 

why RNG for gear sucks in MMO'S..no rng factor then the command booster wouldn't be necessary..it wont play that much of a factor in gearing..if somebody get theres 1st well call it luck but it still wont make them a better player..

[TUXs]

...if somebody get theres 1st well call it luck but it still wont make them a better player..

According to parses, that's arguable. On top of better stats, the 6-piece bonus is a HUGE benefit that can make even an average player look great.

 

What I believe they need to do is separate the 6-piece bonus from the gear. THAT is the one thing you can't buy or craft and you can't count on RNG gearing to get it. Make the 6-piece bonus "innate" and I have no issue with the CXP stims - players will still grind the hell outta stuff to get that stat boost of going from 222 to 224 gear (or whatever the new levels are)...but as long as gearing is 100% dependent on RNG to get it, it's a broken system and CXP boosts are bordering on P2W for the more frequent rolls.