Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[xkcurtisx]

Well depending on the ops it also matters in HM raiding.

 

Okay i ll be a bit more precise about this. When 4.0 lauched my raid team did the following HMs in 198 gear (do note that the 4.0 gear maximum was 224)

We completed Hm SnV, Hm ToS, Hm TFB, Hm Df and lastly Hm Dp. We did this in all 198 from 3.0 era. The only instance we could not complete in 198 was Ravagers, master blaster being a bit more challanging than it used to be. (I do appreciate the difficulty and i love the fight, all fights should be like this) in any way after getting non-optimized 220 we even did that after a few wipes.

So in the long run the same argument i made countless times skill over gear any day.

[Tsillah]

Okay i ll be a bit more precise about this. When 4.0 lauched my raid team did the following HMs in 198 gear (do note that the 4.0 gear maximum was 224)

We completed Hm SnV, Hm ToS, Hm TFB, Hm Df and lastly Hm Dp. We did this in all 198 from 3.0 era. The only instance we could not complete in 198 was Ravagers, master blaster being a bit more challanging than it used to be. (I do appreciate the difficulty and i love the fight, all fights should be like this) in any way after getting non-optimized 220 we even did that after a few wipes.

So in the long run the same argument i made countless times skill over gear any day.

 

Except you can't use that as a baseline. Most people will need to optimise their gear more because they aren't that good. If what you say is true, you are definitely on a level that most people, including raiders, will never achieve.

 

In other words, skill over gear is true but not everybody has or can attain that level of skill. Don't ever assume that what you achieved is normal.

[Jerba]

At least in regards to guides it won't overly matter because there is no new content to write them for except uprisings and no doubt Dulfy will handle those as usual.

It's not just about the guides, as I explained it is a pyramid. For example, there are players that don't write guides themselves but are reading them and sharing the info with other players. Like when someone asks in fleet chat which crystals are best or how many crit/alac pieces he needs, I can help him.

But when there are no more guides, or no more players that previously shared the info from guides, new players will no longer receive help and they will not stick around. The monthly chapter content failed because of lack of player retention. The 2017 group content itself cannot ensure player retention unless BioWare takes veteran players into account when they make decisions like CXP boosts.

 

Min/maxing for the content ... has anyone ever bothered to check and see if it actually matters in the PVE content as to how much easier it is to complete a raid etc.?

There is a big difference between the vendor gear and the unassembled gear (5-10% IIRC) but only a minor difference between optimized 220 and optimized 224 gear (like 1-2%).

Of course, skill can balance out unoptimized gear and I'm sure we could kill some bosses with subpar gear but I'd rather have a plan on how many crit/alac pieces to take so I know how many gear pieces can still be improved. And like I said, we don't have top DPS like some of the top guilds that no longer play, and we don't feel ashamed of needing better gear. (NiM crystals are another discussion; some members don't want to use those. But good gear, stims and Cybertech grenades are fair game)

Edited November 12, 2016 by Jerba

[xkcurtisx]

Except you can't use that as a baseline. Most people will need to optimise their gear more because they aren't that good. If what you say is true, you are definitely on a level that most people, including raiders, will never achieve.

 

In other words, skill over gear is true but not everybody has or can attain that level of skill. Don't ever assume that what you achieved is normal.

 

it is in fact normal, the remnants of the nim community at the start of 4.0 all did this.

 

We could crunch numbers but i don't really want to go that far into it. Just take my word between an optimized set of 224 (for example) and a un-optimized one there is 5-15% difference in damage (dependent on class).

[HelinCarnate]

If you can get the same rewards by playing the game it is not pay to win.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Okay i ll be a bit more precise about this. When 4.0 lauched my raid team did the following HMs in 198 gear (do note that the 4.0 gear maximum was 224)

We completed Hm SnV, Hm ToS, Hm TFB, Hm Df and lastly Hm Dp. We did this in all 198 from 3.0 era. The only instance we could not complete in 198 was Ravagers, master blaster being a bit more challanging than it used to be. (I do appreciate the difficulty and i love the fight, all fights should be like this) in any way after getting non-optimized 220 we even did that after a few wipes.

So in the long run the same argument i made countless times skill over gear any day.

 

To be fair with min/maxing I meant getting that absolute perfect combination of accuracy, power, crit etc. with the correct mods in the correct places etc.

 

That was in regards to the comments made around if there will be anyone around to write guides on this going forward. My question was does anyone even really need to know that or just the general concept of gearing and having the best pieces on? If you take too much power and not quite enough crit and get diminishing returns is it really that much of a big deal in game play land? I've never found it to be personally.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's not just about the guides, as I explained it is a pyramid. For example, there are players that don't write guides themselves but are reading them and sharing the info with other players. Like when someone asks in fleet chat which crystals are best or how many crit/alac pieces he needs, I can help him.

But when there are no more guides, or no more players that previously shared the info from guides, new players will no longer receive help and they will not stick around. The monthly chapter content failed because of lack of player retention. The 2017 group content itself cannot ensure player retention unless BioWare takes veteran players into account when they make decisions like CXP boosts.

 

I get what you are saying but in regards to content ... we don't need guides, we already have them.

 

There is a big difference between the vendor gear and the unassembled gear (5-10% IIRC) but only a minor difference between optimized 220 and optimized 224 gear (like 1-2%).

Of course, skill can balance out unoptimized gear and I'm sure we could kill some bosses with subpar gear but I'd rather have a plan on how many crit/alac pieces to take so I know how many gear pieces can still be improved. And like I said, we don't have top DPS like some of the top guilds that no longer play, and we don't feel ashamed of needing better gear. (NiM crystals are another discussion; some members don't want to use those. But good gear, stims and Cybertech grenades are fair game)

 

Again I see your point but when you get to the point of "plan on how many crit/alac pieces to take so I know how many gear pieces can still be improved." I think you aren't see much in the way of real world improvements personally - i.e. damn you took a crit enhancement where you should have an alac enhancement but real world difference is negligible.

 

It also offers up maybe a chance for people to get more hands on working things out if they really want to know, too often the lure of guides makes us lazy.

 

As for guides on more general which gear is BiS vs not I imagine these will continue on, we may just lose those absolute minute detailed ones.

[omaan]

I saw some speculation that there are going to be Command XP boosts sold on the Cartel Market in 5.0 and the possibility to sell Command Crates on the Cartel Market like the current packs. If they do this, it will be a full on pay to win system. They specifically mentioned in one of the livestreams that they could sell power on the cartel market, but don't.

 

If they do in-fact cross this line, the day this game goes pay-to-win will be the last day I ever play this game.

 

Can someone from the dev team please unequivocally state that something like this will never be in the game in order to end this speculation?

 

If they do so i will leave the game at once, and many other players will do so. Such innovation isn't acceptable at all. Mmo with pay to win are an loose end..

[xkcurtisx]

f you take too much power and not quite enough crit and get diminishing returns is it really that much of a big deal in game play land? I've never found it to be personally.

 

Well there are classes where it matters more than on others. PT dd and OP heals it matters a lot for example. There is a thread on the ideal combo for each class but im too lazy to go search for it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well there are classes where it matters more than on others. PT dd and OP heals it matters a lot for example. There is a thread on the ideal combo for each class but im too lazy to go search for it.

 

I know there are threads on ideal min/max combos but I was more curious if anyone has found not perfectly getting it right can and has lead to raid wipes as opposed to getting it perfect? Like a bit too much power instead of crit?

 

It's like the mastery stat coming through on crystals and some people previously had argued they won't sell awesomely ( compared to expertise lol ) because they aren't the utter best stat to have on your crystals but the difference between power/crit/mastery on your crystal slot is so small it would make no real world difference at all that if you can save yourself a million getting your fave color in mastery then go for it ( probably not so much indestructible which you may very well see a real world negative as a dps ).

[Jerba]

I know there are threads on ideal min/max combos but I was more curious if anyone has found not perfectly getting it right can and has lead to raid wipes as opposed to getting it perfect? Like a bit too much power instead of crit?

 

It's like the mastery stat coming through on crystals and some people previously had argued they won't sell awesomely ( compared to expertise lol ) because they aren't the utter best stat to have on your crystals but the difference between power/crit/mastery on your crystal slot is so small it would make no real world difference at all that if you can save yourself a million getting your fave color in mastery then go for it ( probably not so much indestructible which you may very well see a real world negative as a dps ).

On average, obviously no. There have been many boss kills where players forgot their stim, had the wrong gear equipped or forgot their stance. You can still kill bosses without BiS gear.

On the other hand, there have been many times where most of the group was dead and the last man standing did the last 1% himself. In cases like this, 1% better gear can make the difference between a wipe and a kill.

If you're a good group, you are fine without top gear, and if you aren't, you can still hope for RNG (many crits, or boss AoE dropped on the more mobile players etc.).

 

But that's not really the point. To me, character progression is a core part of RPGs in general and MMOs in particular. Optimizing my gear is very important to me, that's the most important thing to do after a level cap increase. You cannot rest until you have gotten BiS gear. That's what differentiates a progression player like myself from a casual player.

I know progression players are dying out in this game and BioWare is doing everything they can do encourage this, but it's not my playstyle to be casual. I want to optimize my toon, I don't want to hold back my raid group because of subpar gear. If you are not that type of player, more power to you, but players like me rely on the optimized builds players like Bant calculated.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Jerba

[kvandertulip]

Boosters confirmed on the livestream today.

[Jerba]

Just confirmed on the stream, 20% CXP boosts will be sold on the Cartel Market. The reasoning is that we already have XP boosts, so the devs don't see a problem with them.

 

Once again, it shows me that the devs no longer care about group players, and they don't take them into account when making decisions. The Cartel Market can easily make enough money without a CXP boost, so the fact that they think this additional profit is worth driving away the endgame players shows me this game is on the path to P2W.

For now, I will stay because my raid group is staying; if it weren't for them, I would have left long time ago. But fortunately, they still give me the enjoyment the devs no longer give me.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jerba

[Jagaimee]

So... how is a 20% boost "pay to win?" Was it the same thing with experience boosts - you could get to max level a little faster (therefore you could start gearing up a little faster), so was *that* pay to win? Isn't it essentially the same thing here...? I don't get why this is such a bad thing.

[eartharioch]

Just confirmed on the stream, 20% CXP boosts will be sold on the Cartel Market. The reasoning is that we already have XP boosts, so the devs don't see a problem with them.

Lol, devs don't see the difference betwween something that gets you *to* end game faster and something that gives you things *at* end game faster? So basically, we have to decide whether or not they are incompetent (stupid) or lying (if not both)?

 

Once again, it shows me that the devs no longer care about group players, and they don't take them into account when making decisions. The Cartel Market can easily make enough money without a CXP boost, so the fact that they think this additional profit is worth driving away the endgame players shows me this game is on the path to P2W.

For now, I will stay because my raid group is staying; if it weren't for them, I would have left long time ago. But fortunately, they still give me the enjoyment the devs no longer give me.

"Fortunately" for me, my raid group quite at the release of 4.0, so nothing holding me here after do my month of KotET. And this isn't "on the path to P2W', it's flat out P2W. It's not particularly *cost effective* p2w, and there isn't any new content to "W" at, so I expect that there won't be many people willing to "P" that much, at least after adjusting for revenue lost b/c of the model.

[Morrolan]

So... how is a 20% boost "pay to win?" Was it the same thing with experience boosts - you could get to max level a little faster (therefore you could start gearing up a little faster), so was *that* pay to win? Isn't it essentially the same thing here...? I don't get why this is such a bad thing.

 

To use their own words, selling power is p2w and something they said they would never do, GC is the way you gain power in 5.0, therefore selling cxp boosters is selling power and p2w.

 

I will also note that in 1 of the earlier live streams they said there would be nothing related to GC sold on the CM. This is showing that to be a complete lie.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Morrolan

[Jerba]

So... how is a 20% boost "pay to win?" Was it the same thing with experience boosts - you could get to max level a little faster (therefore you could start gearing up a little faster), so was *that* pay to win? Isn't it essentially the same thing here...? I don't get why this is such a bad thing.

We already discussed this a few dozen pages back, but the gist is:

For an endgame player leveling up a character is like 1% of the total play time, the real game starts at max level. So faster leveling has no impact on the endgame. That's also why the level 30 gear that was on the Cartel Market previously did not cause any issues.

Also, there are so many XP boosts given out to free that you don't need to buy any from the Cartel Market.

By the way, WoW introduced level boosts as well, and they are even more careful about avoiding P2W than this game, so clearly skipping leveling up has no relation to buying power.

[Gelious]

So... how is a 20% boost "pay to win?" Was it the same thing with experience boosts - you could get to max level a little faster (therefore you could start gearing up a little faster), so was *that* pay to win? Isn't it essentially the same thing here...? I don't get why this is such a bad thing.

No, its not the same thing at all. Last time I checked, you can level your character only so many times, until you reach the cap, while GC is never over, not even at 300 level.

And you dont get gear while leveling.

[Kaze-Yama]

This is questionable I really don't like the idea of paying for faster advancement for gear. Especially since if the devs are saying it will take you an hour per crate that means 300 hours to max out GC. Now it should be shorter than this due to the daily bonuses and the fact that the levels will hopefully be scaled properly but getting 20% more command crates or gearing 20% faster is a huge advantage either way. With the fact that gearing is RNG it may not even matter but just the premise of it is the issue and it opens up the possibility of them adding more direct pay to win options in the future if they see the XP bonuses selling well.

[kvandertulip]

This is questionable I really don't like the idea of paying for faster advancement for gear. Especially since if the devs are saying it will take you an hour per crate that means 300 hours to max out GC. Now it should be shorter than this due to the daily bonuses and the fact that the levels will hopefully be scaled properly but getting 20% more command crates or gearing 20% faster is a huge advantage either way. With the fact that gearing is RNG it may not even matter but just the premise of it is the issue and it opens up the possibility of them adding more direct pay to win options in the future if they see the XP bonuses selling well.

 

Exactly. This is a very slippery slope. The next step is buying Command Crates, then Command Hypercrates, then who knows what after that.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

To use their own words, selling power is p2w and something they said they would never do, GC is the way you gain power in 5.0, therefore selling cxp boosters is selling power and p2w.

 

I will also note that in 1 of the earlier live streams they said there would be nothing related to GC sold on the CM. This is showing that ti be a complete lie.

 

Correct, now it will be interesting to see how many people who said they would unsub if this became a reality actually follow through on it.

[Jagaimee]

To use their own words, selling power is p2w and something they said they would never do, GC is the way you gain power in 5.0, therefore selling cxp boosters is selling power and p2w.

 

I will also note that in 1 of the earlier live streams they said there would be nothing related to GC sold on the CM. This is showing that ti be a complete lie.

 

Ohhh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that.

[AllisonLightning]

Correct, now it will be interesting to see how many people who said they would unsub if this became a reality actually follow through on it.

 

This is real now? So we have a F2P/sub MMO where subs pay for the privilege of a boosted experience boost in GC because, our subs aren't enough and... that sound isn't me unsubbing, it's my head hitting my keyboard repeatedly. How the frell do you make all the wrong choices?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is real now? So we have a F2P/sub MMO where subs pay for the privilege of a boosted experience boost in GC because, our subs aren't enough and... that sound isn't me unsubbing, it's my head hitting my keyboard repeatedly. How the frell do you make all the wrong choices?

 

Yes it is real. 20% boost to CXP available from the cartel market announced in their stream.

 

Whilst if I liked the system ( I don't hence why I won't be paying for it ) I wouldn't give a **** either way I can see why many are upset by the idea and it's very borderline P2W. I still maintain removing F2P/Preferred from getting gear at all is indeed P2W so combine the both and you've got a fairly solid P2W model forming,.

[scardera]

so 300 hours grind to do the stuff im already doing now but lvl 70? great...NOPE