Swap Character sex 5.0

[SithKoriandr]

Damn... I can't help myself... I have point out the answer to this.

 

 

You remove the cutscene for female toons conversation... where she says she is a tease... replace it with the response she gives the male toons... dah.. no new dialogue required

 

And we go right back to all the extra work people talked about. All the little rework, that one little screw up can have people moaning all over the thread about how they can't finish a mission, can't even start one, or some other problem.

 

Also, your idea does one thing. Changes the character. So the idea you have, is change the character to get what you want. So, now, do we change all the other characters to get what everyone else wants?

[SithKoriandr]

This discussion really should be in another thread, but I'm sick of being called out on it for not providing links. So I'm hopefully going to put the subject to bed with this post.

As I said in my above post, there were some articles that have since been removed from certain religious activist groups while development was still in the early stages.

But I have found some from Bio where they tried to back track and cover their butts after outrage from a portion of the player base for not including it at launch. They said "they always intended there to be same gender romances for companions, but time constraints prevented this and they intend to release it for some companions post launch"

At the time of this Bioware announcement, there were plenty of protest websites from religious groups that dated back to the alpha/beta time period. But as I pointed out, Bioware never publically acknowledged them at the time so as to keep it under raps. Rumours were abound as to wether they would remove the content, which at the time was leaked by some tester/s that it was already in the game.(sorry web page has now been removed )

When Bio did officially address the subject, they tried to keep everyone happy by firstly not releasing the option at launch, but saying it would be added after. But then the subject kept getting bumped and they kept dodging and ignoring questions on this for a long time (there is even a swtor forum thread on it from 2012), till they finally said it would be in the expansion. Still in that first expansion we didn't get a same gender romance companion option until Lana and Theron.

When looking at the swtor forum thread on the same gender option, the Bio community manager at the time had to start another thread because the original was so big. This is a copy of part of that post.

Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss the how and when of implementation of same-gender romances in the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=476215

But I digress. At the time of swtor's release, EA/Bioware was under a lot of pressure from religious conservatives for adding LGBT content in their games, not just swtor. Here is a link to that article and a subsequent one that focuses on the 2.0 expansion

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-04-04-ea-defends-itself-against-thousands-of-anti-gay-letters

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-01-15-ea-bioware-fire-fighting-reactions-to-swtors-gay-ghetto-planet

I also have a link to an article from 2012 from an activist group against same gender relationships in swtor. I'm not sure if I can post it here or if it's a grey area and may or may not be removed. But I'll give it a go and see.

http://floridafamily.org/full_article.php?article_no=140

While I can not provide a smoking gun, because the content was old and has now been removed from the web, I cannot 100% back up my argument that the content was changed before launch. But the circumstantial evidence indicates there was something going on in the back ground during development and prior to launch.

The only way I could 100% back up my argument would be an official statement from Bio or an insider comment.

While searching for this info (because the other web pages had been removed), I came across a discussion about features that were in the beta, but never made it into the game. One that really caught my attention was the ability to attack and kill your own companion if they pissed you off. LOL. And another one that would make a companion leave your crew if you kept making their affection too negative. ie, probably keeping Vette in a collar and never removing it.

There were a few others. Sorry I can't find the page again, I closed it and my browser deletes history. I'll post the link if I find it again.

 

I recall reading the BW response to implementing it later. However, your links would seem to show, it was all games that had the content were protested against, yet still had it, so the question I would have then, why would they give in then, but not before?

 

Had it in a SW game before as well. So, the idea of it being a cost thing, seems more likely. Though, if there are contracts involved, part of the contract issue could be with the VAs themselves.

Edited November 3, 2016 by SithKoriandr

[Eshvara]

I really wish an update wad given from a dev on the matter, not that I already don't know the answer but it's been years. Sometimes another no 5 years later makes all the difference.

[SithKoriandr]

Lmao.. and Trixxie kills it with her logic bomb... not sure why people bother to try and out logic her with emotional responses... they always make me laugh 😂.. especially when they try and reply to her logic bombs in the same format she used and fail because they don't go and read all her posts and why certain things are the way they... 😂😂

I think she pointed out all the relevant things she posted previously... and finished it in point form... she didn't need to go back and repeat the points she made to back up her argument... that's how you debate... you finish by summing up, not rehashing and asking more questions and arguing... :

Like she said... if you don't agree, fine... you don't need to keep attacking someone... she gave the person arguing with her a way out too... I guess they can't leave it alone

 

The silly part here, is you think any of it was emotional responses. I wouldn't bat an eye if they allowed players to swap genders of their characters. I never said I was against it for any emotional reason. I said is, it's never as easy as people seem to say it is. It's work, it's money, it's possible messing of code that could screw up parts of the game.

 

BW themselves said gender was ingrained into the game, making it hard/almost impossible. Seeing as how the idea might merit profit making, as it would of course be a CM market item that likely cost 2k+ CC to use, I couldn't imagine them not doing it, if they thought it would make them a profit.

[TrixxieTriss]

And we go right back to all the extra work people talked about. All the little rework, that one little screw up can have people moaning all over the thread about how they can't finish a mission, can't even start one, or some other problem.

 

Also, your idea does one thing. Changes the character. So the idea you have, is change the character to get what you want. So, now, do we change all the other characters to get what everyone else wants?

 

Let me refer you to a little thread from 2012 when Bioware had told us that they were going to implement same gender companion romancing.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=476215

The original thread was so large that it exceeded the forum thread capacity and the moderator had to start another thread.

All these people were asking for them to implement same gender releatipnships, like Bio had said they would.

So you should probably stop trying to make out that only myself and few others like Icy are being selfish because we would like this to happen as it's been something that was promised since before the game launched.

 

Her solution to your point was spot on and the only logical one if they were going to retrofit the story, which by the way, we've all agreed is never likely to happen, you seem to be the only one who wants to keep arguing as to why it shouldn't happen.

 

Your assessment that they would probably stuff it up is probably right, it is Bioware we are talking about, but that isn't a real reason not to do it. They are supposed to be a professional game developer, if they can't do something as simple as changing one cutscene to another, then they shouldn't be making games.

If we were to follow your logic, then they should never do anything else in the game. Not add more content, not add new gear, not make expansions, because if they did, they might screw it up and we'd all be upset because they broke the game again.

[TrixxieTriss]

I recall reading the BW response to implementing it later. However, your links would seem to show, it was all games that had the content were protested against, yet still had it, so the question I would have then, why would they give in then, but not before?

 

Had it in a SW game before as well. So, the idea of it being a cost thing, seems more likely. Though, if there are contracts involved, part of the contract issue could be with the VAs themselves.

 

Look, you asked me to back up my argument. I did that. What more do you want. Please stop arguing about it. I'm sick of writhing essays to prove my points. Do I need to write a paper and provide proofs and get interviews before you'll stop badgering me.

[eriksarcasm]

Damn... I can't help myself... I have point out the answer to this.

 

 

You remove the cutscene for female toons conversation... where she says she is a tease... replace it with the response she gives the male toons... dah.. no new dialogue required

 

This could work for any romanceable companions and NPC's, so... why not, Bioware? Make it happen.

 

To OP... I'm always all for more character customization, so signed. But for curiosity's and conversation's sake... I totally understand why one would want same sex romance, but what practical purpose in game would changing genders serve? Why not just roll a new toon?

[SithKoriandr]

Let me refer you to a little thread from 2012 when Bioware had told us that they were going to implement same gender companion romancing.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=476215

The original thread was so large that it exceeded the forum thread capacity and the moderator had to start another thread.

All these people were asking for them to implement same gender releatipnships, like Bio had said they would.

So you should probably stop trying to make out that only myself and few others like Icy are being selfish because we would like this to happen as it's been something that was promised since before the game launched.

 

Her solution to your point was spot on and the only logical one if they were going to retrofit the story, which by the way, we've all agreed is never likely to happen, you seem to be the only one who wants to keep arguing as to why it shouldn't happen.

 

Your assessment that they would probably stuff it up is probably right, it is Bioware we are talking about, but that isn't a real reason not to do it. They are supposed to be a professional game developer, if they can't do something as simple as changing one cutscene to another, then they shouldn't be making games.

If we were to follow your logic, then they should never do anything else in the game. Not add more content, not add new gear, not make expansions, because if they did, they might screw it up and we'd all be upset because they broke the game again.

 

Know of the thread. They also did add it, so what they said isn't untrue. They just didn't add it the way people where hoping.

 

There's also a difference in what you're asking. Going back, rewriting the old code. Every MMO dev has said that is not as easy as people make it sound. Non dev programmers have said the same thing. I see no reason not to believe them.

 

Also, haven't they broken the game with every patch? I can swear every patch we see people saying "Now I can't log in because of new patch"

 

I recall I had to reinstall the whole game from the beginning because of one patch to get it to work.

 

Also, in response to your other post, I'm not badgering. I'm posting in a forum thread. I'm making replies. I'm baffled at how people can post in a forum thread, then get all bent out of shape over getting a reply in said forum thread. It's like, why did you even post then, or come back to the thread to read the responses to your post, if you didn't want a response. Or were you just looking for a "+1 /signed"?

[SerraShar]

Humm..

 

They got ride of cutscenes of Heroic and also added a new option to teleport to them directly . As well as make it that we get rewarded on the spot once a heroic is done and we don't have to run back to the npc .

 

Doesn't that count as being able to go back and tweak things without things breaking ?

[SithKoriandr]

This could work for any romanceable companions and NPC's, so... why not, Bioware? Make it happen.

 

To OP... I'm always all for more character customization, so signed. But for curiosity's and conversation's sake... I totally understand why one would want same sex romance, but what practical purpose in game would changing genders serve? Why not just roll a new toon?

 

The practical purpose would be people want a change, but don't want to regear.

 

The other purpose seems to be, people think this will some how make it so people can same gender romance certain companions. Whether that would work or not, no one actually knows. For all they know, it could reset conversations or stop certain flags that were already set, not to be set.

 

For instance. In KotFE you can tell Valk, "I'm married to one of them" What we don't know, is if you gender swap, if that flag would still be set, or if it wouldn't put you married to the other one, or what not. Imagine the outcries of players, if the flag (which BW has says lots of flags are gender based) that said they're married, had them saying they're now married to Jorgan, when before they were married to Elara.

[SithKoriandr]

Humm..

 

They got ride of cutscenes of Heroic and also added a new option to teleport to them directly . As well as make it that we get rewarded on the spot once a heroic is done and we don't have to run back to the npc .

 

Doesn't that count as being able to go back and tweak things without things breaking ?

 

It does. Now, do we think that was something that had flags tied directly to gender, to which BW said there were?

[TrixxieTriss]

Know of the thread. They also did add it, so what they said isn't untrue. They just didn't add it the way people where hoping.

 

There's also a difference in what you're asking. Going back, rewriting the old code. Every MMO dev has said that is not as easy as people make it sound. Non dev programmers have said the same thing. I see no reason not to believe them.

 

Also, haven't they broken the game with every patch? I can swear every patch we see people saying "Now I can't log in because of new patch"

 

I recall I had to reinstall the whole game from the beginning because of one patch to get it to work.

 

Also, in response to your other post, I'm not badgering. I'm posting in a forum thread. I'm making replies. I'm baffled at how people can post in a forum thread, then get all bent out of shape over getting a reply in said forum thread. It's like, why did you even post then, or come back to the thread to read the responses to your post, if you didn't want a response. Or were you just looking for a "+1 /signed"?

 

Ok, you win, you're the forum king, let's leave it at that. I'm not going to keep arguing with you about it. Wether you feel you're badgering me or not, I feel that your are. Please stop, call it quits, you win by default because I can't be bothered wasting my time with you, especially on a topic that isn't even about the thread title.

[eriksarcasm]

The practical purpose would be people want a change, but don't want to regear.

 

That makes sense in a way. For me, I rolled new female toons for classes i hadn't yet played through. I can see how it'd be appealing to someone who didn't want to go through a class story again and again.

 

The other purpose seems to be, people think this will some how make it so people can same gender romance certain companions. Whether that would work or not, no one actually knows. For all they know, it could reset conversations or stop certain flags that were already set, not to be set.

 

So a workaround to hetero-only vanilla companion romance... I don't see why that would work though. Seems like it'd cause a lot of bugs.

 

For instance. In KotFE you can tell Valk, "I'm married to one of them" What we don't know, is if you gender swap, if that flag would still be set, or if it wouldn't put you married to the other one, or what not. Imagine the outcries of players, if the flag (which BW has says lots of flags are gender based) that said they're married, had them saying they're now married to Jorgan, when before they were married to Elara.

 

Seems like it'd be easier to make all romanceable companions romanceable by both genders, in which case the anti-gender swap issues become moot.

[SithKoriandr]

Seems like it'd be easier to make all romanceable companions romanceable by both genders, in which case the anti-gender swap issues become moot.

 

That's just it, we don't know if it would be easier. BW seems to say it's easier said than done. Some don't like that response though and then troll and badger you about how they don't like it. *shrug*

 

I'm sure, if BW figures out how to do it cheap and easy and think it will make money, they'll do it though. So, all one has to hope is they figure out how to do it cheap and easy and their numbers support the idea that many people will use it.

 

I want more hairstyles. It seems like it would be cheap and easy to implement. It hasn't happened yet. So, I would guess more work goes into it, than I believe goes into it and makes them less money than I believe it does.

[eriksarcasm]

That's just it, we don't know if it would be easier. BW seems to say it's easier said than done. Some don't like that response though and then troll and badger you about how they don't like it. *shrug*

 

I'm sure, if BW figures out how to do it cheap and easy and think it will make money, they'll do it though. So, all one has to hope is they figure out how to do it cheap and easy and their numbers support the idea that many people will use it.

 

I want more hairstyles. It seems like it would be cheap and easy to implement. It hasn't happened yet. So, I would guess more work goes into it, than I believe goes into it and makes them less money than I believe it does.

 

I don't think requesting something on the forums counts as badgering... certainly not trolling. If enough people are interested in it they can put the time in to implement it. Whether such an option would be worth the time and money investment remains to be seen. Personally I think a lot of these games developers severely underestimate the importance of character customization to the players.

 

Programming is hard (I know, I failed at it in college) but difficult doesn't mean impossible. If a thing is doable, it doesn't hurt to ask for it. Also we don't know how difficult it is. From what I learned in programming classes (which again, I failed at) it seems to be a question of sprites and flags for issues such as dialog and hairstyles. Adding cheekbone sliders, fine tuning height and body weight, etc, are things that require a more thorough overhaul of the customization system, but adding more things that already exist, or changing a few events to trigger already existing dialog choices, SEEMS to be a hell of a lot easier.

 

But as you say, if it's worth the investment to do it is unknown. Never hurts to ask, though...

[DewyMossEmpire]

This'll never happen, it would affect every single storyline & would call for an extreme amount of scripting & also allow for changes to what's already been done. No way can they do this, it's been asked for dozens of times over. & no, before the SJW's get their turbo keyboard gloves on, it has nothing to do with anything other than game mechanics.

[Ralei]

I'm surprised it took so many pages for "SJW" to show up.

[SithKoriandr]

I'm surprised it took so many pages for "SJW" to show up.

 

I thought the discussion was more "I believe BW when they say it's to difficult" vs "I don't believe BW when they say it's to difficult" with those who don't think it to difficult pointing to the idea that BW would cave for other reasons.

[DarthEnrique]

Do you get offended that females couldn't flirt with the male in RotHC? Is one able to be offended because they didn't get a flirt option? What if you got a flirt option, but they rebutted it, still offended? Should people get offended by the flirt options in game that get rebutted?

 

I wished my Agent could have flirted with Hunter, before it was found out about Hunter's secret. However, I didn't get offended by it, even though it left me wondering the whole time (until the reveal) "Why can't I flirt with him?"

 

Are you serious?! I didn't know that! Wow! Why would they do that? That's dumb! It shouldn't have mattered the gender just let them flirt it's their game. Sheesh...

[Eshvara]

Are you serious?! I didn't know that! Wow! Why would they do that? That's dumb! It shouldn't have mattered the gender just let them flirt it's their game. Sheesh...

 

Cytharat(?) Was the first gay male flirt option in Swtor iirc. Like for men alone, not bi like theron and lana etc.

[Edyn]

I understand where those who want to romance the same sex are coming from - believe me, I love BW's romances - but this is the first thing that popped into my head when I read the request to change all of the original companions romancable by both sexes:

 

After years of both serving the Empire together and progressing their relationship to marriage, The Wrath has finally resolved her trust issues with Malavai Quinn...

 

...and then he spontaneously comes out of the closet as bisexual.

 

[DarthEnrique]

Cytharat(?) Was the first gay male flirt option in Swtor iirc. Like for men alone, not bi like theron and lana etc.

I didn't know that based on his behavior I assumed he was straight same with the girl lt.

 

I don't know here's the thing about characters in the game all are actually meant to be straight not gay. This includes Lana and Theron. The fact that they allowed them to be flirtable between both genders doesn't change this fact, quite honestly I see Lana based on her actions as straight not bisexual, same with Theron, he is obviously straight as well, I know never judge a book by its cover but let's be honest there's not a lot that dabbles in the whole LGBT topic, the why is not a discussable topic as it violates the TOS so we shall not discuss it.

 

I noticed someone said something about the companions from the class stories making distinctions between gay/straight/bi but the truth is the original class companions do not all are straight, even though I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe that Talos is probably gay but yet only girls could flirt with him. Had the original class companions had some straight, some gay and some bi I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Edited November 4, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[Eshvara]

I didn't know that based on his behavior I assumed he was straight same with the girl lt.

 

I don't know here's the thing about characters in the game all are actually meant to be straight not gay. This includes Lana and Theron. The fact that they allowed them to be flirtable between both genders doesn't change this fact, quite honestly I see Lana based on her actions as straight not bisexual, same with Theron, he is obviously straight as well, I know never judge a book by its cover but let's be honest there's not a lot that dabbles in the whole LGBT topic, the why is not a discussable topic as it violates the TOS so we shall not discuss it.

 

I noticed someone said something about the companions from the class stories making distinctions between gay/straight/bi but the truth is the original class companions do not all are straight, even though I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe that Talos is probably gay but yet only girls could flirt with him. Had the original class companions had some straight, some gay and some bi I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Bi, unisex call it what you will, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

I'm all for sexual diversity, if that's even a term. But I just find it stale when you mold whatever character in whatever sexuality you please. Which again makes dragon age inquisition's LI's far more superior than swtor.

 

For some this is a problem for some its not. that aside, there isn't really much left to discuss. It is what it is!

[SerraShar]

I understand where those who want to romance the same sex are coming from - believe me, I love BW's romances - but this is the first thing that popped into my head when I read the request to change all of the original companions romancable by both sexes:

 

After years of both serving the Empire together and progressing their relationship to marriage, The Wrath has finally resolved her trust issues with Malavai Quinn...

 

...and then he spontaneously comes out of the closet as bisexual.

 

 

You can keep him lol

 

Give me Akaavi instead !

[SithKoriandr]

I didn't know that based on his behavior I assumed he was straight same with the girl lt.

 

I don't know here's the thing about characters in the game all are actually meant to be straight not gay. This includes Lana and Theron. The fact that they allowed them to be flirtable between both genders doesn't change this fact, quite honestly I see Lana based on her actions as straight not bisexual, same with Theron, he is obviously straight as well, I know never judge a book by its cover but let's be honest there's not a lot that dabbles in the whole LGBT topic, the why is not a discussable topic as it violates the TOS so we shall not discuss it.

 

I noticed someone said something about the companions from the class stories making distinctions between gay/straight/bi but the truth is the original class companions do not all are straight, even though I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe that Talos is probably gay but yet only girls could flirt with him. Had the original class companions had some straight, some gay and some bi I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

 

A lot went with the idea that Kaliyo was bi because of companion dialogue with her, until she flat out denies it in KotFE.

 

Jaesa (DS) mentions something off handedly, but hers came out sounding more like a "I just tried it because I grew up repressed".

 

Though, in the end, I think the OP was just looking for a work around to the LIs through gender swap rather than wanting the actual customization anyways.